Connect with us

Madden NFL 19: The Full Interview With Producer Ben Haumiller

Madden NFL 19

Madden NFL 19: The Full Interview With Producer Ben Haumiller

EA Play 2018 happened this past weekend in Hollywood and I was fortunate enough to sit down with Ben Haumiller, one of the many hard working producers for Madden NFL 19. We covered a wide range of topics and got deep into the nuts and bolts of what we can expect to see from Madden NFL 19.

Operation Sports: Take me inside the decision to bring Madden 19 to the PC after such a long time away.

Ben Haumiller: We want to get it in front of more gamers, more players, and especially people who love Madden but maybe aren’t console gamers. This can get them back into playing Madden on PC, and visually you’ve got the ability to really make the game look amazing because you don’t have to compress assets.

You can really open up how great it can actually look on that ultra widescreen monitor. You can see the receivers that are out wide without going into Coach cam. It really frames the game in a way that makes it look amazing. We don’t view it as “oh we just made a port of our console game.” It’s 1 to 1 with everything that we’ve got on the core console version. You also have things like keyboard and mouse control so that if you’re not playing with traditional controller, you still have full fidelity to do things so that your mouse will work — like a virtual left stick so you have all your player motion there and it’s actually really intuitive. It actually feels like you’ve got full sense of your player while you’re trying to move them around with that thumbstick and then use the keyboard to do different things like passing, or jukes and spins.

When it comes to Madden Ultimate Team on the PC, how have you prepared for the inevitable attempts to potentially introduce cheats or exploits that could have real monetary consequences?

Ben Haumiller: It is our first year back on the PC, but FIFA also has a very deep Ultimate Team mode and has been on PC  for a long time now, so we can learn a lot from what they’ve done to try to protect their economy, protect their game, and make sure those sorts of exploits, and hacks and cheats aren’t there. It’s never a hundred percent, and someone is going to find something — there’s no way to fully control that. So really it’s just how can we best prepare ourselves and also identify if something does happen how quickly can we get it cleaned up.

I think looking at all the other EA titles that’s the beauty of us, and the power of EA. Every other game on PC is going through that as well, and they’re not trade secrets to the point that they’re not willing to share with us. We’re all one big team, so they have come to us and said if you’re back on PC and you’re doing Ultimate Team here are all the things you need to put in place so that you’re protected.

Longshot was a mode that received mixed reviews. It’s back again this year but won’t carry over previous save states. Why was the decision made to do this, and the homecoming theme aside, why is Wade on the Cowboys despite them having a young superstar QB in Dak Prescott?

Ben Haumiller: The Longshot story was really interesting for us last year in that it was our first time doing the story mode experience. Instead of telling a Kurt Warner-style story where he comes from nowhere and leads his team to the Super Bowl, we wanted to look at the other side. What’s the story of the fringe player who’s trying to make the league? We felt  that was an interesting take on being a sports-genre story because we knew that we were the last AAA sports title to go with a story mode. We wanted to do something a little bit different and kind of buck the trend from what had been happening in other sports games. I think for certain fans of the game it hit home while for others it didn’t quite hit the mark on what they were looking for from it.

We took a lot of that feedback back, and the number one thing people wanted was they wanted to play more. “More games, more games, more games. Story is great but I want to play a game.” So you’ll see a lot more of Devin now in the NFL playing games, and the Colt storyline has a lot more gameplay as well because you play as both Devin and Colt this year. Wade is still a fringe player so he’s not coming in to take over Dak Prescott’s job. He’s still fighting for a spot on the practice squad, so for us the homecoming ties into the larger story that has always centered around the state of Texas. So it felt like putting Wade on the Cowboys to start the year fit in with that.

Initially, we wanted to have it where how you ended your story in Longshot 1 would carry over into Longshot 2, but there were technical challenges and hurdles we couldn’t overcome that made us have to move away from that. If we’re going to break the reality of not having people picking up from where they left off last season, what are we going to do to make this story the best it can be and make the most sense? For us, it was to use the Cowboys name and still have him be that guy who’s trying to make a roster.

So it’s not that he’s come off of this reality show and he’s setting the world on fire, and he’s now the number one quarterback in Dallas. That’s not the story we wanted to tell. We want to keep this in the reality of the world where he’s still trying to figure out how to be a quarterback He didn’t just get it handed to him because of the experience in season one.

So does the time gap from Wade at the draft to training camp in year two happen because of those technical limitations regarding save carryover?

Ben Haumiller: Right. Season one ends on draft day and that season has already happened, so when Longshot 2 picks up you’re in training camp. So to bridge that time, we kind of do a quick thing to catch you up to what happens in the interim and now you’re back on the Cowboys practice squad to try to make the team.

Last year, after completing Longshot we were rewarded with some MUT cards that tied into Longshot, and in franchise mode Wade and Colt would be defaulted to when creating a certain type of QB and WR respectively. Are there plans to further integrate them into MUT and, perhaps, more tangibly into franchise mode?

Ben Haumiller: It’s actually much more seamless this year, so when you get to the end of Longshot 2 you’ll have the chance to continue Colt’s storyline in Ultimate Team or continue Devin’s storyline in franchise mode. In franchise, if you choose to continue Devin’s storyline you pick up right where the story ends, and you can continue on the rest of your career as Devin in a franchise. It’s all right there. You don’t have to go through and create a late-round quarterback who is mobile and that’s the only way you can get Wade.

Continuing Wade in franchise mode makes his playstyle based on the choices that you made throughout Longshot 2. So maybe you’ll have him come in as more of a Cam Newton-style player or maybe it’s more of a Tom Brady. You’ll be able to make that choice along the way as you make it through the story.

With all of the new gameplay mechanics like Real Player Motion, tackling, and the new Cover 4 Match and Palm, how do you balance between the different playstyles? And will there be a more distinct difference between them this year?

Ben Haumiller: That’s always an interesting thing for us. How do we satisfy everyone who wants to play this game? We see this all the time in places like the OS forums where all the time you’ll have a situation where one guy is feeling strongly about something, and then someone else comes right behind him and says the exact opposite — and he feels just as passionately about that.

For us, it’s how do we provide that balance? How do you find things that we can build that satisfy both sides. Playstyles are one way where we can put things that are tuned a certain way for competitive style — and the same goes for Simulation or Arcade. How you want to play the game is something we’ve worked on so that the game will play a little bit more to your style or preference than previously.

When we look into building features, you have to build it with the core of what’s true to football first. Then you go from there and say, “Okay you got the core piece in, now how do we have this for the competitive guy? What is the difference between that and how does the Simulation guy want this to play out?” Clint [Oldenberg], our lead gameplay designer, is always going to try to figure out how to build these things out the right way so we can satisfy all three playstyles because we can’t build it for just one. You’ve got to build it so that everybody can enjoy it in the way they want to play it.

For the new schemes in franchise mode, are they merely a new means of progressing players or will there be a tangible on-field effect for being as close to a perfect scheme fit as possible?

Ben Haumiller: So we’ve had schemes in the game for a few years now but they never truly had an effect on everything you were doing, so we took the opportunity to make schemes truly matter for you. But also the overall progression system along the way matters, and we have that feed into one larger feature of this game with progression. With the progression this year, you’re no longer upgrading individual ratings one at a time. You’re now choosing between four different archetypes per position group for how you want to improve your player.

You’re not locking him in to just one type of player like “Deshaun Watson’s always going to be this type of quarterback.” Another example is Jimmy Garoppolo: How do you want him to develop over the course of his career? Our way of looking at quarterbacks is you have four different styles that are in the game. We’re looking at a Scrambler, a Field General, a West Coast and a Strong Arm. So how do you want to progress him along the way, and how is Garoppolo going to fit with what the 49ers are trying to do? What is Kyle Shanahan trying to do there? Is he trying to change his scheme to fit the players he has, or is he going to have to find the players that fit his scheme and what’s that look like along the way. You might need to change schemes in between weeks and it will adjust how players progress throughout the season.

For each player that comes in, being a scheme fit will give a plus to their weekly XP that will effect how they progress. The true benefit of having a scheme fit is, for example, free agency. Say you were going to sign one of two players that you need, a free safety at 75 overall and one that is 80 overall. The traditional Madden logic is you’re going to choose the 80 overall every time. It was an overall game. Now with scheme fits, that 75 overall that fits your scheme will progress faster than the 80, and has much better potential to end up a better player overall because he fits what your scheme is for your team. So now you have the concept of “okay do I need to win right now with the 80, or can I do a little longer play with a 75 and eventually make him better?”

So there’s no actual thing where having a hundred percent scheme fit will give your players plus-five attributes across the board, but rather because your players are progressing faster in the archetype that fits your scheme [you’ll see bigger gains in the long run]. So if you’re building your team around a particular scheme, those players — based on their ratings — are going to be best at running the plays that you want to run in game. And our play-call logic and the AI have been improved so that they’re going to call the plays that make the most sense based on what the team is schemed to do.

So it has a secondary use in that your scheme guys will be better on the field, but that’s because they’re progressing faster and also they are better suited to run things — like more agile linemen being better on a stretch run than the big mauler. It really changes how fast you can move players up, and it gives you a reason other than just overall to figure out why you should want to sign a certain guy to your team versus another guy.

Can you tell me how the new regression system works? Having been in 32-user leagues, a player like Antonio Brown would be released after a couple of years because once he reached a certain age, his speed would drop far and fast. How has this been addressed?

Ben Haumiller: A lot of work went into regression and, actually, into player generation too because there are two sides of the coin there. Because of those scheme fits and those archetypes, we had to re-create how we create every draft prospect because you want to have a nice balance of guys that are at each position. At quarterback, for example, you don’t want to have a league that was all Strong Arm guys seven years down the line because the random roll of how guys are created ended up being all Strong Arms coming into the league. We want to have a nice balance between different archetypes at every position.

So then you have to think about the regression side of things, and the progression as well, so that you know when a guy hits a certain age, yeah his speed is not going to go up anymore but it doesn’t automatically mean he’s hit that wall. So a player [isn’t automatically] going to be like Felix Jones that came out of the combine running like a 4.3 40 and then three or four years later he’s at that veteran combine running a 4.6. He hit a wall really early and guys are going to be different. Some guys are going to prolong their careers like an Adrian Peterson-type guy who seems to just keep going and going forever — or looking at Tom Brady now or Drew Brees, guys like that who are getting up there in years but are continuing to excel at an older age.

We’ll still have guys like that in the game that are rarities in the league that will do that. But you also want regression to happen naturally, so you are able to use your scheme fit upgrades to try to fight some of the effects of aging over time because of the different type of archetypes.

Any change to relocation cities and uniforms? Can we pick a different team name if we relocate to Vegas?

Ben Haumiller: No changes to relocation or any of those fictitious uniforms. We do have all of the new authentic uniforms coming in. We work with the NFL very closely and they tell us what can or can’t be in the game, and in regards to choosing Vegas nicknames they wanted us to just leave it as it is until the Raiders are actually there.

Tell me about the return of Custom Draft Classes.

Ben Haumiller: With the edit draft class, you can edit everything about any player that you want to. This is the last piece of the sandbox that we haven’t given players the ability to do anything with. When you think about franchise, you can edit every player on every roster. What we were seeing guys doing is they would draft their players, and then they’d edit them after the draft. That’s a horrible way of having to go about things so we wanted to fix that. Now you can go in and start your franchise, and start with an auto-generated class and edit as much or as little as you want to. You can go in and just change the top guy’s name to whatever you want it to be and that’s it. Or you can edit every single thing about all 450 players in that class, including their development trait so then you can decide who you want to be stars or superstars.

You can also change the draft order as well. How (players) show up when you’re looking at the scouting screen so you can have those guys that are hidden gems in the later rounds. You get to craft how those guys appear so that when you’re scouting there are some nice surprises and it’s not just the best player is projected number one overall. You can then utilize Madden Share, so Operation Sports, who do a great job in their forums of creating different draft classes for other games, can now create those classes and share them with the other community members. You can do your own edits if you want or wait for someone else to do one that you like and then download it.

So player editing is in the game still? There was some question after one of the screenshots showed OBJ and we couldn’t see the option for it where it used to be.

Ben Haumiller: Yes, player editing is still in the game. The reason why you don’t see it in that screenshot is because we brought back the ability to choose your team captains this year. So when you add something to the list, something else has to slide down and it happened to be edit player. I love how quickly that was pointed out; it shows the fanaticism towards the game that we love, and the thing about the Madden community is that they notice these things. They didn’t comment on how Odell looked, it was “What happened to edit player?” It’s great and to answer your question, edit player is still there but you just have to scroll down to see it.

What can you tell me about the team captains? Does it affect gameplay?

Ben Haumiller: You have the ability to set up to six captains per team. They are set authentically by default, but you can change them to whomever you want. Teams that don’t have captains or captain patches won’t have them in the game. Certain teams don’t wear them or wear them for the playoffs only so we respect those rules, but you can go in and set it to whatever you want to. On the field, the six captains will have a star icon underneath them so you can identify who the team captains are [on both teams]. So when you’re in year six or year seven down the line and you don’t know who all the players on the Texans are by name anymore, you can still quickly see who a captain is since he’s probably one of their best players.

Captains are a cosmetic thing this year, though. We were happy that we were able to get the different types of captain’s badges because we used to have only the single version, but now you’ll see as a player progresses he will get that second or third star, even the gold star patch. So that will update as long as he is a continual captain for his team. But as far as having some sort of impact, it was in the plans but we ran out of time to get that in the game this year — but it’s something that we are thinking about and evaluating.

We’re interested to see what kinds of upgrades we could potentially have for a player becoming a captain, and how we would want that to impact the rest of the players. Does it impact just him? There’s a lot of thought still going on about it, and I know that now that this feature is out there I’m sure there will plenty of threads about “this is what we want to see captains badges do.” We love reading those threads to help us be able to have an idea of what people want. We can have ideas, but if it’s not what people want then what good are they? It’s always important to read what everyone is doing and thinking so that we can make the best decision possible.

Finally, I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask since it’s on the wish list every year. Will there be changes to the presentation in franchise? Specifically with regards to a pregame, halftime or postgame highlight show?

Ben Haumiller: You know, being in the industry as long as I have, I was around and playing those games just like anyone else, and there were some really great things they were doing at the time. We already have our version of a pregame; it’s short since we’re about getting you onto the field as quickly as possible. We do have a different halftime show for franchise this year that I’m sure we’ll be talking about — I’m not sure I can talk about that in detail yet — but not much of a postgame show.

We’re not quite there yet to be able to have a fully immersive watching highlights type thing. If you think about how that feature set worked back in the day with NFL 2K5, they were just pre-canned animations with uniform swaps from a certain point of view. You couldn’t see the stadiums or anything else like that, and it was amazing for the time but it’s also well past that time, so for us we have to figure out how how are we going to do video highlights of games that were never truly played. We also have to make a highlight from that unplayed game that we can show in a video that isn’t like the old pre-canned animation as well because those pre-canned animations wouldn’t hold up in 2018 — so we have a lot of technical hurdles to climb to make that the right way.

It’s not that we’re oblivious to the fact that everyone wants that — we know — it’s just a matter of technically how do we get there to where we’re generating a replay from a game that never actually happened. Once we have that tech — and I don’t know when we’re going to have it, we’ve been talking about it for quite a while now and it’s a tough one to crack — you’re going to be able to see things like that become a lot more attainable and really build that immersion.

You could probably do that in an online 32-man league easier for sure. Those highlights are being generated by the games actually being played. It’s a more achievable and faster thing to be able to accomplish for that, but we have to look at what’s the broad thing that’s best for everyone. The guy who’s playing in a one-man league shouldn’t be missing out on something great because we took a shortcut and built something that only works in a 32-man league — that all goes into how we’re going to build these things out. I’m not going to say it’s something we’re on a definitive path to working on now, but it’s definitely something we want to it’s just a matter of being able to technically achieve it.

313 Comments

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published.

Discussion
  1. I can't believe a 2k5 style wrap-up show got completely shot down.
    We don't need the highlights. Just give us pre-made snapshots or Larry Ridley talking about box scores, trades, playoff pictures, and league leaders. ANYTHING.
    I think Ben is a great addition to the franchise team. But, this isn't rocket science. There's common sense ways to get around the technical issues of the "whole loaf" goal so to speak and still give the Sim community a "slice" of happiness.
    Sent from my XT1650 using Operation Sports mobile app
    The video highlights aren't what made 2k5 or Choops 2k8's weekly recap shows as great as they were. I skipped the highlights more often than not after seeing them enough times I could tell you where every player went. What made them special was seeing results and stats from each game, seeing major injuries, seeing trade rumors heat up, seeing Cinderella stories come to life and be talked about, etc.
    The video highlights were near the bottom of the list if not at the bottom as to why those recap shows were so loved. It's the same thing with Choops 2k8 having a selection show in their legacy. It adds to the immersion. It was exciting to start the selection show and see if you made the tourney or to see if you got that final 1 seed. It was exciting to go from 0-3 to 3-3 in 2k5 and have Chris Berman talk about your team turning it around and surprising some folks. It was great seeing Chris Berman talk about the impact losing Santana Moss would have on the Jets. It was immersive to see everything that was talked about.
    If video highlights are what is keeping them from creating a show, then forget about them and create it now! Make this mode come to life finally. A recap show would do wonders for CFM and its lack of immersion.
    canes21
    The video highlights aren't what made 2k5 or Choops 2k8's weekly recap shows as great as they were. I skipped the highlights more often than not after seeing them enough times I could tell you where every player went. What made them special was seeing results and stats from each game, seeing major injuries, seeing trade rumors heat up, seeing Cinderella stories come to life and be talked about, etc.
    The video highlights were near the bottom of the list if not at the bottom as to why those recap shows were so loved. It's the same thing with Choops 2k8 having a selection show in their legacy. It adds to the immersion. It was exciting to start the selection show and see if you made the tourney or to see if you got that final 1 seed. It was exciting to go from 0-3 to 3-3 in 2k5 and have Chris Berman talk about your team turning it around and surprising some folks. It was great seeing Chris Berman talk about the impact losing Santana Moss would have on the Jets. It was immersive to see everything that was talked about.
    If video highlights are what is keeping them from creating a show, then forget about them and create it now! Make this mode come to life finally. A recap show would do wonders for CFM and its lack of immersion.

    This. Even if they just gave us some sort of news hub single page that broke down all the scores (not just a few stories) and key player stats, playoff picture, with screenshots in the background, maybe even a radio voice in the background talking about big games or future games coming up next week.
    EA is finally starting to use the word "immersion" when talking franchise, so that in itself might be a positive sign that they are starting to get it. But they really need to take a weekly show into consideration and not shoot it down so quickly. Nothing gets you more immersed than just sitting back and letting a highlight show bring everything to you. I don't even care if its fake highlights, i just want to see
    all in one place.
    Years later and still no real highlights or halftime/postgame/playoff game implications baked into it either. His 2K5 comments were off base as well...but whatever makes them feel like progress has been made in the presentation department. 
    Very disappointing to hear his thoughts on a weekly halftime show and even pregame.
    1. Not everyone wants to get on the field as soon as possible. If they do hit x ot whatever button to skip it. Or how about talking about the league or game in the loading screens instead of showing me xp goals for my players.
    2. As someone else mentioned 2ks wrap up show isnt just about the highlights. It was about giving you updates from around the league. Results, injuries, draft big boards, playoff standings, awards, etc. He also talks about Cannes animations getting stale yet they use can animations for the unrealistic starting line ups with linemen dancing and what not. or the canned Twitter timeline that i hardly even look at.
    3. I enjoyed even the bare bones Extra Point show on Madden. simply because it talked about the league and what was going on in easy concise way.
    I think one of the biggest issues is online franchises. I'm guessing it would be harder to create any type of weekly show with 32 users.
    Adembroski when you were at ea what were talks for a wrap up show like.
    Yeah... Ok that's it. I'm done.  I haven't been impressed with what I've seen of Madden 19 (it looks exactly the same as it has the past 3 years with a few minor tweaks). They clearly don't get it and they likely never will. I had hoped with the previous Madden developer moving on things would change for the better but that was clearly a pipe dream. I should have known better. 
    Wow... I'm just flabbergasted from watching that. I honestly don't understand what goes on in that studio, but it sure isn't an environment that fosters critical thinking or innovation. It seems that no matter who is being interviewed, the constant theme is how something "can't" be done. Whether it is Clint stating that it's hard to prevent the players from walking through walls after TDs to Ben saying they can't create a halftime/weekly wrap up show in CFM.
    So let me get this straight... It's been 14 years and 3 consoles later and you can't even MATCH what was done with 2k5? So what if the hilights aren't real for single player games, you can do a lot of other things that don't involve the highlights. Even if they simply used canned screenshots from a library, or they crowd sourced plays from online games and took pictures. Online leagues can use the uploaded plays from the users to flash on the screen. You have to start somewhere in order to get this stuff going. His answers lead me to believe that they have nothing even designed for this. Basically, if they can't boil the entire ocean, then nothing will ever get implemented. Wow... just wow...
    At this point it seems like you're more likely to purchase a winning lottery ticket than the Madden team ever "getting it". I now understand why some people leave there and get frustrated. What a waste.
    Yeah it's sooooo frustrating to hear about a lack of a weekly wrap up show in CFM again. Literally all I want is the Extra Point show. Do I need to see a model of Larry Ridley pointing at a green screen to scores and stuff or highlights? Not at all. Have his voice over all that stuff and forget the highlights. You have to BUILD from something and when they had the Extra Point show that was perfect for me I watched it every week. They scrapped it because it "wasn't good enough" which ok fine, but I disagree. I am interested to see what the new halftime show looks like but seriously......Extra Point show. Do want.
    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
    Reed1417
    Yeah it's sooooo frustrating to hear about a lack of a weekly wrap up show in CFM again. Literally all I want is the Extra Point show. Do I need to see a model of Larry Ridley pointing at a green screen to scores and stuff or highlights? Not at all. Have his voice over all that stuff and forget the highlights. You have to BUILD from something and when they had the Extra Point show that was perfect for me I watched it every week. They scrapped it because it "wasn't good enough" which ok fine, but I disagree. I am interested to see what the new halftime show looks like but seriously......Extra Point show. Do want.
    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


    If this is how it still was it'd be better than nothing. It was a great first step. The fact that it wasn't good enough should have meant they would have worked to improve it, not scrap it and never replace it 9 years later. There is just too much with this franchise I do not understand. They really seem to make their jobs 10x harder on themselves for whatever reason. Is the legacy code really so bad that it is the main issue or is leadership and vision the main problem?
    Whatever it is, Madden fails to ever have a consistent identity and every year it seems like they want to be innovative and introduce something new for the back of the box, but they never want to work on polishing what is already there. I guess they hear all of the criticism and think all we want is brand new sparkling features, but most of us would rather have a game that had a year spent polishing everything in the game now.
    In FIFA they save replays of goals, some fouls, and some saves. Then you can see them at the end of the match with different angles and such. You can do the same with Madden. Save TDs, turnovers, and late game 1st downs and you can use that as a beginning for a little halftime or wrap up show.
    GiantBlue76
    Wow... I'm just flabbergasted from watching that. I honestly don't understand what goes on in that studio, but it sure isn't an environment that fosters critical thinking or innovation. It seems that no matter who is being interviewed, the constant theme is how something "can't" be done. Whether it is Clint stating that it's hard to prevent the players from walking through walls after TDs to Ben saying they can't create a halftime/weekly wrap up show in CFM.
    So let me get this straight... It's been 14 years and 3 consoles later and you can't even MATCH what was done with 2k5? So what if the hilights aren't real for single player games, you can do a lot of other things that don't involve the highlights. Even if they simply used canned screenshots from a library, or they crowd sourced plays from online games and took pictures. Online leagues can use the uploaded plays from the users to flash on the screen. You have to start somewhere in order to get this stuff going. His answers lead me to believe that they have nothing even designed for this. Basically, if they can't boil the entire ocean, then nothing will ever get implemented. Wow... just wow...
    At this point it seems like you're more likely to purchase a winning lottery ticket than the Madden team ever "getting it". I now understand why some people leave there and get frustrated. What a waste.

    Hit the nail on the head. I wish we could convey this to EA some how. I mean how can they honestly look at NFL2k5 or see what nba 2k does and really, honestly think what they do even sniffs that. I would be embarrassed.
    I follow basketball pretty casually. I do not know the x’s and o’s Of basketball at all. But I love nba 2k. I don’t even a quarter of the controls or special moves. But I really don’t care.
    I love football with a passion. I’m not a football genius but I do know a bit. And I don’t buy madden. Even when it’s like $12 it don’t even interest me. I like the game of football more than I like the NFL.
    canes21

    If this is how it still was it'd be better than nothing. It was a great first step. The fact that it wasn't good enough should have meant they would have worked to improve it, not scrap it and never replace it 9 years later. There is just too much with this franchise I do not understand. They really seem to make their jobs 10x harder on themselves for whatever reason. Is the legacy code really so bad that it is the main issue or is leadership and vision the main problem?
    Whatever it is, Madden fails to ever have a consistent identity and every year it seems like they want to be innovative and introduce something new for the back of the box, but they never want to work on polishing what is already there. I guess they hear all of the criticism and think all we want is brand new sparkling features, but most of us would rather have a game that had a year spent polishing everything in the game now.

    Most of OS, maybe, but everywhere else they would be vilified. Although they seem to care less about Metacritic than they have in the past, focusing more on player retention year round, a version that was light in new features would review pretty poorly(high 7's low 8's IMO) and that would not be received well by anyone in upper management I'm sure.
    jfsolo
    Most of OS, maybe, but everywhere else they would be vilified. Although they seem to care less about Metacritic than they have in the past, focusing more on player retention year round, a version that was light in new features would review pretty poorly(high 7's low 8's IMO) and that would not be received well by anyone in upper management I'm sure.

    I've seen that argument over the years, but at this point we have seen every other sports franchise have years where they focused more on polishing the game and getting what was in the game right and less on the back of the box features and those games did just as well or better. It's very similar to the sandbox argument that used to get thrown around that does sometimes still where people would argue that if we had too much customization options we wouldn't buy the next year's game. It's been proven false and NBA 2k and Out of the Park are two shining examples of when you give your customers what they want they will support you year after year.
    People buy Madden every year because they hope this is the year it finally changes. People buy NBA 2k or OOTP ever year because they support the developers and know to expect a quality product.
    scitychamps87
    I can't believe a 2k5 style wrap-up show got completely shot down.
    We don't need the highlights. Just give us pre-made snapshots or Larry Ridley talking about box scores, trades, playoff pictures, and league leaders. ANYTHING.
    I think Ben is a great addition to the franchise team. But, this isn't rocket science. There's common sense ways to get around the technical issues of the "whole loaf" goal so to speak and still give the Sim community a "slice" of happiness.

    I wish I could like this twice; since I can't, I'll just quote and add on. At this point something, anything is better than nothing. It's disappointing to hear that we're missing out on league recaps because of authentic highlights.
    Only on OS will "we don't want to fake it like other games built in 2004 running on weak hardware did" get twisted into "we don't ever want to do this" or "we aren't capable of doing this". Sheesh.
    Frankly I thought Ben's response to that question was quite insightful and honest. It's unfortunate that this community doesn't appreciate that.
    Other Guy
    I wish I could like this twice; since I can't, I'll just quote and add on. At this point something, anything is better than nothing. It's disappointing to hear that we're missing out on league recaps because of authentic highlights.

    Oh come on, let's be honest with ourselves. No one on this forum would be happy with a weekly wrap-up show without out-of-town highlights, especially single-team franchise users.
    It is simply not true that anything at all is better than nothing.
    Only on OS can you wait 14 years for basics but have it be twisted into "this community is unreasonable" because they don't think the developers of the game walk on water.
    Sheesh.
    GiantBlue76
    Only on OS can you wait 14 years for basics but have it be twisted into "this community is unreasonable" because they don't think the developers of the game walk on water.
    Sheesh.

    Exactly.......I don’t really visit here much anymore precisely for this reason.
    GiantBlue76
    Only on OS can you wait 14 years for basics but have it be twisted into "this community is unreasonable" because they don't think the developers of the game walk on water.
    Sheesh.

    A full-fledged weekly recap show with (in a single-player context) dynamically generated highlights from out-of-town games is "basics"? Seriously?
    You work in software engineering too, I can't possibly believe you don't understand and appreciate all the technical challenges of something like that, particularly in the modern age of AAA gaming where graphical fidelity is paramount.
    How that feature was built in 2004 doesn't work in 2018 for a litany of reasons, that was literally Ben's entire point. And he's right.
    GiantBlue76
    Only on OS can you wait 14 years for basics but have it be twisted into "this community is unreasonable" because they don't think the developers of the game walk on water.
    Sheesh.

    Yeah. I agree. I think people would be over the moon happy if they “faked” the halftime show just like APF or 2k5.
    But I mean really at this point we shouldn’t be wanting the game to be at least that good. We should want it to be even better than those games. And it’s not. It’s far behind.
    Madden is the video game representation of America’s most popular sport. It should be leading the way. It should be better than nba or mlb. Not trying to catch up to a 14 and 10’year old game.
    He bottom line is this. If it has been done on previous consoles and games. It should be able to be done now for madden. And if they can’t figure out how to do it, then THEY need to change how they’re working. Or how madden is made. It’s THEIR problem. Not ours.
    I mean I think that speaks more to the developers on 2k5 that they were able to fake it so well on that weak hardware.
    I mean ****. Here is my biggest point. Even when the madden team doesn’t “fake” things. And does things the way they think should be done. They are still implemented poorly. Or seem half finished. So maybe they should try faking more things.
    I don’t care how they get there. I just want the end result to look better than nba 2k or APF. I want my football game to blow me away. I want to love a new football game.
    Last thing. Nba live has a cool ESPN package for their halftime show. It’s not great. But it’s pretty cool. And I enjoyed it. The live team can do that. But the madden team can’t?
    CM Hooe
    A full-fledged weekly recap show with (in a single-player context) dynamically generated highlights from out-of-town games is "basics"? Seriously?

    I don't think he demanded a full fledged weekly recap with highlights and called it basic. But we have been missing some basic football elements for a very long time that other team oriented sports video games have done, and using the current hardware.
    CM Hooe
    How that feature was built in 2004 doesn't work in 2018 for a litany of reasons, that was literally Ben's entire point. And he's right.

    Sure, you can't take a feature as is from a previous gen to the current hardware. But if it could be done on weaker hardware, common sense says it should be very possible on much better (current) hardware.
    CM Hooe
    A full-fledged weekly recap show with (in a single-player context) dynamically generated highlights from out-of-town games is "basics"? Seriously?
    You work in software engineering too, I can't possibly believe you don't understand and appreciate all the technical challenges of something like that, particularly in the modern age of AAA gaming where graphical fidelity is paramount.
    How that feature was built in 2004 doesn't work in 2018 for a litany reasons, that was literally Ben's entire point. And he's right.

    I don't want to argue... But I will answer this part of your response.
    Of course I appreciate the technical challenges. They've had 14 years to build a weekly wrap up/halftime show of some kind. Some sort of realistic/immersive half time show. Not only that, but they have had 2 additional console upgrades to work with. You obviously don't play NBA 2k because you'd see that they've been able to do some nifty things to add to the immersion. Even with Basketball where there are a lot more games. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. Is it difficult? Absolutely, but at some point, you need to create something and build on it. You seriously can't tell me that features in software can only be introduced if they've boiled the ocean, right?
    Take the extra point from Madden 10 - wasn't perfect, but it was the start of something pretty decent. It was impressive that they were able to do it in one year too. Imagine what that would be now had they built it up? So using this logic, we should have nothing at all because we can't blow it up all at once? I'm all for fleshing out features as much as possible before incorporating them. Something like this that has to do with immersion/presentation will never be fully "done", but it has to have a start. In 14 years, they could have created some very cool things, especially since other games have already done it so we know it's possible.
    CM Hooe
    Only on OS will "we don't want to fake it like other games built in 2004 running on weak hardware did" get twisted into "we don't ever want to do this" or "we aren't capable of doing this". Sheesh.
    Frankly I thought Ben's response to that question was quite insightful and honest. It's unfortunate that this community doesn't appreciate that.

    CM Hooe
    Oh come on, let's be honest with ourselves. No one on this forum would be happy with a weekly wrap-up show without out-of-town highlights, especially single-team franchise users.
    It is simply not true that anything at all is better than nothing.

    Ok, I should have mentioned that I greatly appreciate Ben being so forthright about the situation. He clearly wants to have something in the game, and laid out the reasons why it's a challenge. I love that openness, and kudos to him for that.
    In no way did I ever intend to bash the guy for his creativity or abilities. Maybe I am in the minority but, yes, I would love some type of recap feature even if it lacked highlights. Highlighting key matchups, playoff pictures, and scores would go a long way, imo.
    CM Hooe
    Oh come on, let's be honest with ourselves. No one on this forum would be happy with a weekly wrap-up show without out-of-town highlights, especially single-team franchise users.
    It is simply not true that anything at all is better than nothing.

    We literally just had all of the replies before this say they would be happy if there weren't any highlights. I don't care as much about a fake highlight, I care about the news around the league. Show me the box scores of each game, then show me any key injuries that happened, then move onto any key transactions. Kick up some trade rumors, show what milestones are nearing. As the season progresses you can show races for divisions or the wild card.
    Highlights are the last thing I want included in a wrap-up show.
    If EA's logic is fans wanting improved presentation only means wanting live highlights from other games, then they're completely missing the point.
    At the very least, EA could improve presentation by re-incorporating stuff that has worked for previous Madden games (e.g. Tony Bruno show, Extra Point show, newspaper headlines, etc.) or other EA Sports titles like NCAA Football (ESPN presentation, score updates from Rece Davis, on-field graphics showing conference standings, Brad Nessler talking about how the outcome of another game is going to affect the outcome of this game), or NCAA Basketball (DUAL ESPN and CBS presentation!).
    What made the presentation so great in NFL 2k5 and College Hoops 2k8 wasn't just the highlights from other games, but how both games tried to present authentic weekly wrapup shows. How cool was it to watch an actual Selection Show in College Hoops 2k8 with all the slow buildup and anticipation of Greg Gumbel revealing each team that made into the tournament while Clark Kellogg occasionally chimed into about the matchup or how this was SoandSo University's 3rd tournament appearance. Contrast that to NCAA Basketball 10 in which the "Selection Show" consisted of pressing a button and seeing a list of all the teams that made the tournament.
    Over a decade has passed since NFL 2k5 and College Hoops 2k8 and presentation on Madden hasn't improved much since Madden 05 for the PS2.
    Fast forward 14 Madden titles and two next gen console systems later and EA thinks this is the best they can do for presentation on Madden 19??
    I fail to understand EA's logic...
    scitychamps87
    I can't believe a 2k5 style wrap-up show got completely shot down.
    We don't need the highlights. Just give us pre-made snapshots or Larry Ridley talking about box scores, trades, playoff pictures, and league leaders. ANYTHING.
    Sent from my XT1650 using Operation Sports mobile app

    Yeah like they always do they miss the point of what made the weekly wrapup show so great. The IMMERSION of knowing what else is going on in the league! Ug..
    jmurphy31
    Very disappointing to hear his thoughts on a weekly halftime show and even pregame.
    1. Not everyone wants to get on the field as soon as possible. If they do hit x ot whatever button to skip it. Or how about talking about the league or game in the loading screens instead of showing me xp goals for my players.

    YES! YES! YES! I have always stated why in the world are they taking this time to show XP goals in the loading screens vs showing actual stats for the season. You you can pull data in for what XP is needed you can show us how the QB stats rank up this year or RB or WR or DL, etc.
    XP status means nothing to me when I am getting ready to load my game. I looked at all that already in my roster section.
    Kingd803
    Hit the nail on the head. I wish we could convey this to EA some how. I mean how can they honestly look at NFL2k5 or see what nba 2k does and really, honestly think what they do even sniffs that. I would be embarrassed.
    I follow basketball pretty casually. I do not know the x’s and o’s Of basketball at all. But I love nba 2k. I don’t even a quarter of the controls or special moves. But I really don’t care.
    I love football with a passion. I’m not a football genius but I do know a bit. And I don’t buy madden. Even when it’s like $12 it don’t even interest me. I like the game of football more than I like the NFL.

    He claims they come here all the time and read. All they need to do is read the comments here and see the over whelming amount of people who disagree with their current approach to presentation. But i'm sure they never come here either :)
    tyberious4now
    Be like me lower your expectations and you want be disappointed every year:grin:..
    Try it it works and it will also save you from a ton of headaches. ..

    It's hard to lower our expectations when the other sport games (MLB The Show, NBA 2K, F1, etc) are improving years after years in term of gameplay / presentation / etc. while Madden hasn't improved since countless years.
    I can take the videos of Madden 19 and put them beside videos of Madden 18, Madden 17 and Madden 16 that you barely see some differences : same scoreboard, same presentation, etc.
    CM Hooe
    Oh come on, let's be honest with ourselves. No one on this forum would be happy with a weekly wrap-up show without out-of-town highlights, especially single-team franchise users.
    It is simply not true that anything at all is better than nothing.

    I absolutely would like something to add to the immersion. Did I think Extra Point was good...no far from it. Especially since I was still irritated by the NFL/EA deal 5 years later. But now....nothing....for years and no intention of giving the fans what they want.
    The idea for why they would not do it was just silly. Shots to close that you can't tell the stadium, pre-canned clips, etc.
    I do appreciate that he knows their programmers and creative people do not have the skills to get it done.
    Charvalos

    I can take the videos of Madden 19 and put them beside videos of Madden 18, Madden 17 and Madden 16 that you barely see some differences : same scoreboard, same presentation, etc.

    Yeah when I heard about this my enthusiasm sank once more. How can you have "Next Level Presentation" using the same generic scoreboard as M17? I mean I enjoy it when I see what new rookies joined the team in Week 1 game(if I don't accidentally skip it all the time) I like seeing how my QB performed the week before(When they introduced in M!6, broken, fixed in M17) I like knowing what the season standings are, in game as if I am really playing in the alternate NFL that myself and friends engage in week in and week out.
    Is it too much to get the presentation needed to keep us fully immersed? I mean come on we don't even have tracked playoff stats for players over their career. We don't even have records for yardage, TDs, INTs, for individual teams(NCAA has been doing this for ages and they had 117+ teams to track!)
    The only thing that is even keeping me interested is the PC version in hopes of MODs....which I am sure will be so limited.
    WHY DID THEY TALK ABOUT NEXT LEVEL PRESENTATION AS A TALKING POINT....WHY...WHY!
    Oh Wait they talked about Team Captains as a new feature.....that are aesthetics only....that "could" have impacts in the future, then guess what. Talk about Team Captains then...when it matters. OR should probably just be a footnote the week before the game comes out.
    I would love to see the OP faces when some of these answers came out.
    CM Hooe
    A full-fledged weekly recap show with (in a single-player context) dynamically generated highlights from out-of-town games is "basics"? Seriously?
    You work in software engineering too, I can't possibly believe you don't understand and appreciate all the technical challenges of something like that, particularly in the modern age of AAA gaming where graphical fidelity is paramount.
    How that feature was built in 2004 doesn't work in 2018 for a litany of reasons, that was literally Ben's entire point. And he's right.

    Ben, is that you?
    Ben is a company man. I think he gives answers like we couldn't, or it wasn't technically possible because he can't throw the publisher under the bus. I think the truth is EA does not want to allocate anymore than the bare minimum resources.
    I have been in business for 15 years and honestly what EA does is smart business. Granted, bad for the consumer but great for EA. Why allocate more resources to overcome technical/ budgetary issues when you don't have to. The game is going to make hundreds of millions of dollars profit regardless. Why shrink your already huge profit margins by allocating more resources when people are going to buy the game regardless.
    I had such high hopes when madden 25 came out. Sure it was the most stripped down madden in almost 10 years, but EA kept saying they were going to keep building on it for the new generation of consoles. I can honestly say in the 5 years since that game has come out, while yes there has been progress it has been incremental.
    I dunno maybe my expectations are to high. But it's hard not to feel let down when games like NBA 2k and FIFA do it so well, yet Americas biggest sport feels so far behind.
    Therebelyell626
    Ben is a company man. I think he gives answers like we couldn't, or it wasn't technically possible because he can't throw the publisher under the bus. I think the truth is EA does not want to allocate anymore than the bare minimum resources.
    I have been in business for 15 years and honestly what EA does is smart business. Granted, bad for the consumer but great for EA. Why allocate more resources to overcome technical/ budgetary issues when you don't have to. The game is going to make hundreds of millions of dollars profit regardless. Why shrink your already huge profit margins by allocating more resources when people are going to buy the game regardless.
    I had such high hopes when madden 25 came out. Sure it was the most stripped down madden in almost 10 years, but EA kept saying they were going to keep building on it for the new generation of consoles. I can honestly say in the 5 years since that game has come out, while yes there has been progress it has been incremental.
    I dunno maybe my expectations are to high. But it's hard not to feel let down when games like NBA 2k and FIFA do it so well, yet Americas biggest sport feels so far behind.

    I agree with your points. What I have a tough time understanding is that Madden has a huge developing team compared to other games and even 2k. This year IMO is very limited in features or things that were added. I can think of 5-10. Yet 2k adds 50-100 new things every year then builds on them in the following years. But with only a few big features added does it really take all year to develop those features with the whole team? Then we get a crazy bug filled EA play (their words). I just feel like there is a lot of down time in the EA offices with a lot of beer pong and cornhole being played to kill time. With such a huge team of devs and such limited features added it’s hard to understand. Maybe after EA got sued for not paying employees overtime they eliminated overtime all together? Who knows... everything about this game year to year is underwhelming though for me compared to what other games do. Maybe 2k set my expectations too high. It’s funny every year when 2k releases their blogs how many Madden players pop in and say wow I’m jealous, EA take note, etc... maybe 1 day they do???
    vannwolfhawk
    I agree with your points. What I have a tough time understanding is that Madden has a huge developing team compared to other games and even 2k. This year IMO is very limited in features or things that were added. I can think of 5-10. Yet 2k adds 50-100 new things every year then builds on them in the following years. But with only a few big features added does it really take all year to develop those features with the whole team? Then we get a crazy bug filled EA play (their words). I just feel like there is a lot of down time in the EA offices with a lot of beer pong and cornhole being played to kill time. With such a huge team of devs and such limited features added it’s hard to understand. Maybe after EA got sued for not paying employees overtime they eliminated overtime all together? Who knows... everything about this game year to year is underwhelming though for me compared to what other games do. Maybe 2k set my expectations too high. It’s funny every year when 2k releases their blogs how many Madden players pop in and say wow I’m jealous, EA take note, etc... maybe 1 day they do???

    One thing to remember is, not all developers are equal. An example, my company will farm out work overseas to developers that literally charge pennies on the dollar to do coding. We know the quality won't be there and there will be bugs but this allows us to have a larger development team and hit our deadlines. It's a business model that I see more and more software companies use. With development windows being so short, companies have to cut corners.
    I don't know if 2k uses this type of model and therefor can implement more with a smaller more efficient staff. That staff probably costs more or the same as the whole madden staff. At least that's what I would imagine a company like EA trying to do.
    canes21
    People buy Madden every year because they hope this is the year it finally changes. People buy NBA 2k or OOTP ever year because they support the developers and know to expect a quality product.

    There are millions of people who buy Madden each year because they enjoy playing the game. We dgaf about halftime or weekly wrap up shows in franchise because we'd just skip them to get on to the next half/game, anyway.
    You do not speak for the overwhelming majority of Madden's user base.
    stinkubus
    There are millions of people who buy Madden each year because they enjoy playing the game. We dgaf about halftime or weekly wrap up shows in franchise because we'd just skip them to get on to the next half/game, anyway.
    You do not speak for the overwhelming majority of Madden's user base.

    But you do?
    vannwolfhawk
    I agree with your points. What I have a tough time understanding is that Madden has a huge developing team compared to other games and even 2k. This year IMO is very limited in features or things that were added. I can think of 5-10. Yet 2k adds 50-100 new things every year then builds on them in the following years. But with only a few big features added does it really take all year to develop those features with the whole team? Then we get a crazy bug filled EA play (their words). I just feel like there is a lot of down time in the EA offices with a lot of beer pong and cornhole being played to kill time. With such a huge team of devs and such limited features added it’s hard to understand. Maybe after EA got sued for not paying employees overtime they eliminated overtime all together? Who knows... everything about this game year to year is underwhelming though for me compared to what other games do. Maybe 2k set my expectations too high. It’s funny every year when 2k releases their blogs how many Madden players pop in and say wow I’m jealous, EA take note, etc... maybe 1 day they do???

    Agreed. Madden should take notes because 2k18 did 3.11m on PS4 while madden did 2.54m. While 570,000 copies doesn't sound like a lot at $65 a pop that's over 300 million dollars. Then you factor in all of the ultimate team money that extra 500,000 copies would generate darn near a billion dollars. That's a lot of cheddar to be leaving on the table.
    Is he NBA really that much more popular than the NFL. No. But 2k18 is vastly deeper, accessible, and just flat out better game.
    Therebelyell626
    Agreed. Madden should take notes because 2k18 did 3.11m on PS4 while madden did 2.54m. While 570,000 copies doesn't sound like a lot at $65 a pop that's over 300 million dollars. Then you factor in all of the ultimate team money that extra 500,000 copies would generate darn near a billion dollars. That's a lot of cheddar to be leaving on the table.
    Is he NBA really that much more popular than the NFL. No. But 2k18 is vastly deeper, accessible, and just flat out better game.

    This is true, at least somewhat. I would think that the NBA is a little more popular world wide. They have far more international stars in the NBA than in the NFL. That alone would open the NBA2k to a larger audience.
    Therebelyell626
    Agreed. Madden should take notes because 2k18 did 3.11m on PS4 while madden did 2.54m. While 570,000 copies doesn't sound like a lot at $65 a pop that's over 300 million dollars. Then you factor in all of the ultimate team money that extra 500,000 copies would generate darn near a billion dollars. That's a lot of cheddar to be leaving on the table.
    Is he NBA really that much more popular than the NFL. No. But 2k18 is vastly deeper, accessible, and just flat out better game.

    Don’t forget 2k has competition too as opposed to madden which doesn’t which makes those numbers even more impressive...
    Therebelyell626
    Agreed. Madden should take notes because 2k18 did 3.11m on PS4 while madden did 2.54m. While 570,000 copies doesn't sound like a lot at $65 a pop that's over 300 million dollars. Then you factor in all of the ultimate team money that extra 500,000 copies would generate darn near a billion dollars. That's a lot of cheddar to be leaving on the table.
    Is he NBA really that much more popular than the NFL. No. But 2k18 is vastly deeper, accessible, and just flat out better game.

    The NBA does not even scratch the surface of the popularity of the NFL in North America. I firmly believe that if it actually met its potential, Madden could sell 15m copies. If the game blew people away, no rational person would even be thinking about another football game, much less games from over 12 years prior.
    Therebelyell626
    Agreed. Madden should take notes because 2k18 did 3.11m on PS4 while madden did 2.54m. While 570,000 copies doesn't sound like a lot at $65 a pop that's over 300 million dollars. Then you factor in all of the ultimate team money that extra 500,000 copies would generate darn near a billion dollars. That's a lot of cheddar to be leaving on the table.
    Is he NBA really that much more popular than the NFL. No. But 2k18 is vastly deeper, accessible, and just flat out better game.

    While I agree with everything you are saying, I just gotta correct that $60 x 500,000 is $30 million, not $300.
    stinkubus
    No, but I don't claim to, either.

    He wasn't claiming to either. We are all simply saying the things that we think would make the game better. If they implemented these features you already said you would skip them, so they wouldn't effect you at all. So what's the big deal if they were added?
    GiantBlue76
    The NBA does not even scratch the surface of the popularity of the NFL in North America. I firmly believe that if it actually met its potential, Madden could sell 15m copies. If the game blew people away, no rational person would even be thinking about another football game, much less games from over 12 years prior.

    I agree with this but I think you are really underestimating the worldwide appeal of basketball. Football is almost only North America, basketball is all over. I would think as far as major sports go, it would be soccer, basketball and then football as far as popularity goes. I'm sure there's some metrics out there somewhere that would support this or refute it.
    canes21
    While I agree with everything you are saying, I just gotta correct that $60 x 500,000 is $30 million, not $300.

    Lol. Math has never been my strong suit. Good catch. Still a lot of cash though right? lol
    Sphinx
    This is true, at least somewhat. I would think that the NBA is a little more popular world wide. They have far more international stars in the NBA than in the NFL. That alone would open the NBA2k to a larger audience.

    You would be correct. 2k had more world wide sales a few years ago under 1,000.000 units sold, but that would be more difficult to determine with digital sales, but probably not much has moved since then, either.
    roadman
    You would be correct. 2k had more world wide sales a few years ago under 1,000.000 units sold, but that would be more difficult to determine with digital sales, but probably not much has moved since then, either.

    True, but in 2005 which some would argue was the peak year for video game football madden '05 did 4.5 million on PS2 alone, while 2k5 did around 2.6. NBA 2k isn't touching those numbers. Granted today's gaming environment is much different t with more stable online play and the rise in popularity of shooter games. But still, the demand is there it's the supply that is coming up short
    Therebelyell626
    True, but in 2005 which some would argue was the peak year for video game football madden '05 did 4.5 million on PS2 alone, while 2k5 did around 2.6. NBA 2k isn't touching those numbers. Granted today's gaming environment is much different t with more stable online play and the rise in popularity of shooter games. But still, the demand is there it's the supply that is coming up short

    Very true, the gaming landscape a lot since then and consoles have been streamlined since then.
    Therebelyell626
    True, but in 2005 which some would argue was the peak year for video game football madden '05 did 4.5 million on PS2 alone, while 2k5 did around 2.6. NBA 2k isn't touching those numbers. Granted today's gaming environment is much different t with more stable online play and the rise in popularity of shooter games. But still, the demand is there it's the supply that is coming up short

    That's not really the best comparison in my opinion. Didn't 2k sell at 20 dollars forcing EA to lower madden just to compete? The sales would surely have been inflated due to that in my opinion.
    That being said, I do think improvements to madden would help sales but probably not as much as we all think.
    vannwolfhawk
    I just feel like there is a lot of down time in the EA offices with a lot of beer pong and cornhole being played to kill time.

    As someone with personal friends and former colleagues who do work for Tiburon now and/or did work for Tiburon in the recent past, I can assure you there is not "a lot of downtime".
    I know these friends and colleagues in particular to exceptionally talented people. Further, I also know the stresses that they willingly endure to pursue a career they love. To that end, the dismissive and ignorant notion that these guys and girls are just sitting around drinking beers and yucking it up is frankly insulting.
    GiantBlue76
    If the game blew people away, no rational person would even be thinking about another football game, much less games from over 12 years prior.

    Even with the large amount criticism the game receives these days, this might be the most powerful statement of all. There are people out there still playing 2k5, M08, and NCAA 14. That should tell you all you need to know about the state of Madden at this point. Nobody out there is playing FIFA, The Show, or NBA 2k titles from 5+ years ago (Choops aside).
    Sorry for the nagging post. I'm just really ready to Make Madden Great Again :lol:
    CM Hooe
    As someone with personal friends and former colleagues who do work for Tiburon now and/or did work for Tiburon in the recent past, I can assure you there is not "a lot of downtime".
    I know these friends and colleagues in particular to exceptionally talented people. Further, I also know the stresses that they willingly endure to pursue a career they love. To that end, the dismissive and ignorant notion that these guys and girls are just sitting around drinking beers and yucking it up is frankly insulting.

    So is the product I get every year...
    CM Hooe
    As someone with personal friends and former colleagues who do work for Tiburon now and/or did work for Tiburon in the recent past, I can assure you there is not "a lot of downtime".
    I know these friends and colleagues in particular to exceptionally talented people. Further, I also know the stresses that they willingly endure to pursue a career they love. To that end, the dismissive and ignorant notion that these guys and girls are just sitting around drinking beers and yucking it up is frankly insulting.

    Fair enough. I am not being sarcastic at all when I ask this. But as someone with some personal insight into the inner workings what do you think is holding this game back? EA corporate? The NFL? The American mafia?
    Therebelyell626
    He wasn't claiming to either. We are all simply saying the things that we think would make the game better. If they implemented these features you already said you would skip them, so they wouldn't effect you at all. So what's the big deal if they were added?

    Because resources are finite and every minute and/or dollar that goes into presentation features that most don't know (which I'm inferring from the fact that EA doesn't include them) is time and money that can't be used to improve gameplay.
    Look, I get that most of you guys want it to be one way, but it's the other way. Madden has been published for 30 consecutive years and never once has the game ever been a hardcore football simulation.
    Even if that's what you wanted I've never understood the clamoring for these presentation elements. Do you think head coaches need to watch SportsCenter to figure out what's going on around the league? Do you think they are listening to the TV call of the game on the headsets they wear on the sidelines?
    stinkubus
    Because resources are finite and every minute and/or dollar that goes into presentation features that most don't know (which I'm inferring from the fact that EA doesn't include them) is time and money that can't be used to improve gameplay.
    Look, I get that most of you guys want it to be one way, but it's the other way. Madden has been published for 30 consecutive years and never once has the game ever been a hardcore football simulation.
    Even if that's what you wanted I've never understood the clamoring for these presentation elements. Do you think head coaches need to watch SportsCenter to figure out what's going on around the league? Do you think they are listening to the TV call of the game on the headsets they wear on the sidelines?

    Gameplay is massively important. But gameplay alone cannot present the level of immersion that us franchise guys seek. The reason we want presentation elements is to make us feel like we are in the league building a team. Not just playing a bunch of play now games with no rhyme or reason. I take it you are not a franchise guy?
    Madden hasn't added resources to presentation in years and the gameplay still isn't great. So I find it hard to believe something as small as a presentation package would derail the series
    Therebelyell626

    Is he NBA really that much more popular than the NFL. No. But 2k18 is vastly deeper, accessible, and just flat out better game.

    I bought 2k18 this year for the first basketball game I've ever bought for the depth of the franchise mode and the sliders that let me play how I want to play. I haven't watched an NBA game since Jordan was with the Bulls.
    stinkubus

    Even if that's what you wanted I've never understood the clamoring for these presentation elements. Do you think head coaches need to watch SportsCenter to figure out what's going on around the league? Do you think they are listening to the TV call of the game on the headsets they wear on the sidelines?

    Everyone has their own desires/vision for the game. If presentation isn't your thing, it's no big deal. Nobody's gonna chastise you for it. BUt it's clear that presentation is important for most folks on OS. The article that this thread is based on had several topics, yet the one small section about presentation is dominating the thread. It's a big deal for a lot of people.
    There are people playing 2k5 , M08 and NCAA14 still, and let me tell you, it ain't for the graphics and gameplay. Many people just want a more in-depth franchise with better presentation.
    Therebelyell626
    Gameplay is massively important. But gameplay alone cannot present the level of immersion that us franchise guys seek. The reason we want presentation elements is to make us feel like we are in the league building a team. Not just playing a bunch of play now games with no rhyme or reason. I take it you are not a franchise guy?
    Madden hasn't added resources to presentation in years and the gameplay still isn't great. So I find it hard to believe something as small as a presentation package would derail the series

    Exactly!
    Commentary and presentation can make or break Franchise. If it's bad, then I'm done by season 3. The only time in EA Sports Football history that I played a deep franchise was NFL Head Coach '09.
    NFL Head Coach '09 was a teaser of what Franchise immersion can be like with EA Sports. Mix the best of HC with NFL 2K5 and we'd have the start of my dream game.
    Madden 19 is promising but if the presentation doesn't support deep franchise then all is for nothing! The draft class editor and other additions will be worthless beyond season 3 yet again.
    Therebelyell626
    Fair enough. I am not being sarcastic at all when I ask this. But as someone with some personal insight into the inner workings what do you think is holding this game back? EA corporate? The NFL? The American mafia?

    1 - Making video games is hard. Especially in AAA.
    2 - Specific to Madden, Madden is a massive game with a lot of cooks in the kitchen; not only developers and designers and the layer-cake code base with a mix of new and legacy tech, but licensing partners, marketing, corporate, and so on. Any decision about any feature add is planned months if not years in advance most of the time.
    A designer-type friend once told me that working on Madden was akin to steering an aircraft carrier. The thing is capable of turning and will turn when asked. However, it takes a lot of people to start turning, and once you start turning you're not stopping, so you better be damn sure you want to turn before you do, otherwise you're going to run other things over and make a mess.
    vannwolfhawk
    So is the product I get every year...

    No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy or play the game. If you're tired of being disappointed, I'd recommend seeking out a different game which makes you happy instead.
    Other Guy
    Even with the large amount criticism the game receives these days, this might be the most powerful statement of all. There are people out there still playing 2k5, M08, and NCAA 14. That should tell you all you need to know about the state of Madden at this point. Nobody out there is playing FIFA, The Show, or NBA 2k titles from 5+ years ago (Choops aside).
    Sorry for the nagging post. I'm just really ready to Make Madden Great Again :lol:

    How many indie developers do you see out there attempting to make basketball, baseball or soccer games? Yet we have 3 attempting to make football...
    GiantBlue76
    How many indie developers do you see out there attempting to make basketball, baseball or soccer games? Yet we have 3 attempting to make football...

    Something alot of people really don't bring up. Really speaks to the quality of Madden over the years.
    Other Guy
    Everyone has their own desires/vision for the game. If presentation isn't your thing, it's no big deal. Nobody's gonna chastise you for it.

    jenniferlawrenceOK.gif
    In this very thread there are posts chastising people for buying the game.
    CM Hooe
    As someone with personal friends and former colleagues who do work for Tiburon now and/or did work for Tiburon in the recent past, I can assure you there is not "a lot of downtime".
    I know these friends and colleagues in particular to exceptionally talented people. Further, I also know the stresses that they willingly endure to pursue a career they love. To that end, the dismissive and ignorant notion that these guys and girls are just sitting around drinking beers and yucking it up is frankly insulting.

    With that being said, is it really difficult to relate to some of the posts in the thread and on OS over the years? The frustrations that have come with this product, some unwarranted. I honestly don't think from the posts I view that people are asking for really unreasonable requests.
    I can understand having a personal relationship with the producers of the product creating an unrealized bias.
    GiantBlue76
    How many indie developers do you see out there attempting to make basketball, baseball or soccer games? Yet we have 3 attempting to make football...

    SageInfinite
    Something alot of people really don't bring up. Really speaks to the quality of Madden over the years.

    Rocket League and Super Mega Baseball both exist and are wildly and mildly successful, respectively.
    Out Of The Park Baseball also exists and released without a publisher up until the 2019 edition, IIRC, and OOTP Developments still functions as an independent studio with a whole suite of sports titles.
    There's also a whole slew of lesser-known independent sports games on mobile where the barrier to entry is much lower than consoles. Quality is all across the board, but the games do exist.
    CM Hooe
    Rocket League and Super Mega Baseball both exist and are wildly and mildly successful, respectively.
    Out Of The Park Baseball also exists and released without a publisher up until the 2019 edition, IIRC, and OOTP Developments still functions as an independent studio with a whole suite of sports titles.
    There's also a whole slew of lesser-known independent sports games on mobile where the barrier to entry is much lower than consoles. Quality is all across the board, but the games do exist.

    Yeah but c'mon, LOL, those games are offering totally different experiences than the games also trying to occupy the football landscape.
    The football offerings attempting to make their mark on the console space are in direct response to what Madden is and has become imo. Not saying they are, or ever will be on the level of Madden, but they definitely are trying to offer an alternative with a similar game experience.
    CM Hooe
    1 - Making video games is hard. Especially in AAA.
    2 - Specific to Madden, Madden is a massive game with a lot of cooks in the kitchen; not only developers and designers and the layer-cake code base with a mix of new and legacy tech, but licensing partners, marketing, corporate, and so on. Any decision about any feature add is planned months if not years in advance most of the time.
    A designer-type friend once told me that working on Madden was akin to steering an aircraft carrier. The thing is capable of turning and will turn when asked. However, it takes a lot of people to start turning, and once you start turning you're not stopping, so you better be damn sure you want to turn before you do, otherwise you're going to run other things over and make a mess.

    I imagine it takes just as much to steer NBA2k, but they seem to handle it pretty well.
    Reading that interview reinforces what I was referring to in another thread, regardless of x persons bonafides, working on Madden is just a different animal, for whatever reason.
    Maybe the halftime stuff Ben was touching on is something akin to what was in NCAA Football with the game breaks/updates but looking at the overall football focus that was applied to Dynasty mode, I'm lead to believe Ben is just towing the company/product line vs giving his personal opinion. I could be wrong of course, it's just that I seem to see this happen when otherwise qualified sensible people start working on Madden, they start espousing illogical notions, which would only make sense if Madden were the only video game, ever.
    For example NCAA Football, not to mention past Maddens, had coordinators, in NCAA Football you could actually be one, yet with Madden a company line will be "we don't want to add Coordinators until they're authentic". They can do whatever they want to do with their game but saying nonsense like that is insulting, like Vannwolfhawk stated because having the coordinator positions/titles is itself authentic, regardless of having the real names or not and EA obviously knows that, evidenced by NCAA Football and past Maddens.
    So again, when I see someone with the credentials of Ben saying stuff like that about wrap up shows, it gives credence to my belief that Madden is still more about creating EA Football, than emulating NFL football.
    Sounds like what EA and OS want aren't on the same page. EA thinks OS wants highlights and OS can get by without the highlights.
    Someone needs to send a memo to EA and make sure everyone is on the same page, huge disconnect.
    The companies that are being compared are obviously two different companies doing things on their own pacing, timing and resources. They can be compared, but I think everyone can tell clearly the who the leader is by now after 14 years. One company is progressive, the other company is conservative.
    I truly feel, opinion only, it boils down to legacy coding. We heard previously for FM, there was coding in FM from 99 until they moved onto CFM.
    I think they would need to blow everything up and take 1 step forward and 2 steps back with a bare bones game one year and we know 2k was able to do that, but will the suits at EA be in favor of that?
    Probably not, it hasn't happened up to now, and I don't see them changing that philosophy anytime soon.
    I get the frustration, I wouldn't mind a flushed out post game show with standings and stats from that week around the league. I wouldn't care if the stats were fake, either.
    CM Hooe
    Rocket League and Super Mega Baseball both exist and are wildly and mildly successful, respectively.
    Out Of The Park Baseball also exists and released without a publisher up until the 2019 edition, IIRC, and OOTP Developments still functions as an independent studio with a whole suite of sports titles.

    You'd have a point if Madden had rockets shoved up players backsides for speed bursts or had super giant heads. Or if OOTP was 3D and player controlled on the field. But those games are going for a completely different experience than Madden. Good try though.
    Actually it really wasn't even a good try.
    SageInfinite
    Yeah but c'mon, LOL, those games are offering totally different experiences than the games also trying to occupy the football landscape.
    The football offerings attempting to make their mark on the console space are in direct response to what Madden is and has become imo. Not saying they are, or ever will be on the level of Madden, but they definitely are trying to offer an alternative with a similar game experience.

    I give you the "totally different experiences" point with respect to Rocket League and Super Mega Baseball, that's totally valid. At the same time, I don't think the indie football games are universally responses to Madden either.
    Axis Football has been around in some form or another since at least 2010 (at least, that's when the first version was published to Armor Games). I have to imagine it has existed since before then, but I don't know that for a fact; someone else more familiar with the series history would have to tell me. Regardless, calling it a response to Madden feels incorrect, since it started as an online web game and only pivoted to Unity (thus opening the door for 3D graphics and console SKUs) once Flash fell out over favor.
    The first version of Maximum Football was released in 2006 by the same developer and its hook is support for all gridiron football rule sets, a niche which is not supported by Madden. To that end, I'll give you this game as a direct response to Madden.
    Gridiron Champions, such that it ever actually exists (which is unclear), is a direct response to the hiatus of NCAA Football. It doesn't exist if NCAA Football still exists.
    Mutant League Football: I think we can both agree that that's it's own thing, kinda like Super Mega Baseball is to baseball games.
    One more indie football game I can think of: Front Office Football 8, which recently got picked up by OOTP Developments, has been around since the days of Windows XP and at one point was published by EA Sports, so calling that a response to Madden also feels wrong. In addition it's not an apple-to-apples comparison, since it's a text simulator.
    jfsolo
    Oh okay, you're one of those dudes, good to know.

    Whatever that means... A guy who is frustrated by the slow progression of this series? Ya, I’m that guy... Sorry, block me then...
    CM Hooe
    No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy or play the game. If you're tired of being disappointed, I'd recommend seeking out a different game which makes you happy instead.

    Listen, I’ve owned every madden since 88. You do the math on how much money I have given EA. I love football in a close 2nd to basketball. Those games and UFC are the only 3 games I play outside messing around with a free fifa download. I don’t believe I have any other options for a football game on consoles with authentic teams and players though do I? If I do please let me know what it is so I can try it... I don’t complain about 2k at all and love what they do every year. The game has issues it needs to improve upon, but I know they listen every year and hear the complaints and they at least touch on it. I get you will defend this game to no end. I believe I want what everyone else here does and for this game to ultimately succeed, but if your seriously not seeing how other companies are doing things compared to madden’s pace I don’t know what else to say. I’m here because in todays day and age of talking about things, wish lists, etc it can get the attention of the devs and possibly make it in the game. I also like discussing it. That being said, I give props where props is due and I also shoot straight when [email protected]@t is not up to par. I likethe new 22 RPM, but if I was to make a list of pro’s and con’s of what is right compared to what is not to fully replicate and represent the sport of football I think we all know which would have more things on it.
    This is the problem though in the community. It’s either you are on 1 side or the other. We all want the same thing in the end. Your answer is if you don’t like it don’t buy it. I have said before I enjoy the game online but offline it’s horrible with CPU AI. Even though I enjoy it online there are things that stick out like a sore thumb. Go watch the video shopmaster put out today on pockets. But just because I don’t share your patience or views does not make me wrong. EA needs to hear the negatives (albeit in a constructive manner). That’s the only way they will add or fix what needs to be added or fixed.
    I’d love to your opinion and hear why other games are succeeding and going above and beyond like 2k is in the same yearly cycle that madden has with a considerably smaller dev team? That’s not a tad disappointing to you? All the madden people in those 2k blogs released every year saying WOW EA take note is wrong? The depth and options in my league? The depth of players with attributes, badges, and tendencies? Cmon! Like I said other games have made me set a higher standard for madden and as well it should. The whole community should hold a higher standard for them. Only then will we see change...
    I posted this article yesterday in a thread. After reading it it really made me think about where the problem really lies...
    http://www.svg.com/114215/shady-side-ea/?amp=1&utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_2741466&__twitter_impression=true
    Therebelyell626
    Agreed. Madden should take notes because 2k18 did 3.11m on PS4 while madden did 2.54m. While 570,000 copies doesn't sound like a lot at $65 a pop that's over 300 million dollars. Then you factor in all of the ultimate team money that extra 500,000 copies would generate darn near a billion dollars. That's a lot of cheddar to be leaving on the table.
    Is he NBA really that much more popular than the NFL. No. But 2k18 is vastly deeper, accessible, and just flat out better game.
    This is how a customer-focused business executive should be looking at the sales numbers. Not, "ah it's good enough".
    Sent from my XT1650 using Operation Sports mobile app
    vannwolfhawk

    This is the problem though in the community.
    We all want the same thing in the end

    Honestly as time goes on, and people post more and more, I'm starting to believe that point not to be true. Some of the things I see people post in response, or defense of Madden, leads me to believe they do not want the type of NFL game that I do.
    SageInfinite
    Honestly as time goes on, and people post more and more, I'm starting to believe that point not to be true. Some of the things I see people post in response, or defense of Madden, leads me to believe they do not want the type of NFL game that I do.

    You know what? You are right! Roadman just posted how EA and OS are not on the same page. I’m not sure OS is even on the same page. LOL
    roadman
    Sounds like what EA and OS want aren't on the same page. EA thinks OS wants highlights and OS can get by without the highlights.
    Someone needs to send a memo to EA and make sure everyone is on the same page, huge disconnect.
    The companies that are being compared are obviously two different companies doing things on their own pacing, timing and resources. They can be compared, but I think everyone can tell clearly the who the leader is by now after 14 years. One company is progressive, the other company is conservative.
    I truly feel, opinion only, it boils down to legacy coding. We heard previously for FM, there was coding in FM from 99 until they moved onto CFM.
    I think they would need to blow everything up and take 1 step forward and 2 steps back with a bare bones game one year and we know 2k was able to do that, but will the suits at EA be in favor of that?
    Probably not, it hasn't happened up to now, and I don't see them changing that philosophy anytime soon.
    I get the frustration, I wouldn't mind a flushed out post game show with standings and stats from that week around the league. I wouldn't care if the stats were fake, either.

    Some would say madden 25 was that stripped down version of the game. Just my opinion
    Sphinx
    I agree with this but I think you are really underestimating the worldwide appeal of basketball. Football is almost only North America, basketball is all over. I would think as far as major sports go, it would be soccer, basketball and then football as far as popularity goes. I'm sure there's some metrics out there somewhere that would support this or refute it.

    I think you underestimate the popularity of the NFL in other parts slightly , whilst obviously it's a more niche sport it's way more popular in the UK than basketball imo , if 2k sells better than Madden elsewhere in the world it's almost certainly due to product not the sport
    Therebelyell626
    Some would say madden 25 was that stripped down version of the game. Just my opinion

    Your right, some could say that and that didn't pick up the pacing after Madden 25 was released till now.
    My point still stands, though, two very different companies.
    SageInfinite
    Honestly as time goes on, and people post more and more, I'm starting to believe that point not to be true. Some of the things I see people post in response, or defense of Madden, leads me to believe they do not want the type of NFL game that I do.

    If the cpu plays a lot smarter I'll be very happy :D
    Patrick Kendrick
    Yeah... Ok that's it. I'm done. *I haven't been impressed with what I've seen of Madden 19 (it looks exactly the same as it has the past 3 years with a few minor tweaks). They clearly don't get it and they likely never will. I had hoped with the previous Madden developer moving on things would change for the better but that was clearly a pipe dream. I should have known better.*

    Thing is, this game is the work of the previous regime. The new regime is simply promoting this product because it's what will hit the shelves in a few months. Their influence on the game will come in future iterations.
    I like Ben and I'm encouraged by his acknowledgement that the community wants a weekly wrap up show. That's a starting point I don't think we reached previously. I would strongly encourage him to look past the highlights as a block to getting something out there - for me it doesn't make or break the wrap up show as a feature - and they could easily do something like MLB The Show does with its daily wrap up show but make it a more visual thing. Put an image up with the score of the game, a pic from that game behind it, some key stats or the storyline and then have some audio to support that. I don't see highlights, especially if it's that difficult from a technical standpoint, as pivotal to adding something that would enhance immersion.
    bucky60
    I imagine it takes just as much to steer NBA2k, but they seem to handle it pretty well.

    But doesn't EA make much more money off of Madden? Not in sales of units, but say MUT.
    I'm asking btw
    The main problem that I think everyone can agree on. When it comes to innovation, especially innovation in technology things are supposed to improve not regress. People reflect on nfl 2k5 and even older maddens as the gold standard. But madden hasn't gotten better and some would even say with the introduction of CFM things have actually taken steps back.
    Case in point no one with an iPhone 8 is looking back fondly wishing they still had an iPhone 1. Why? Because the iPhone 8 is a vastly better product that has maximized the technological advancements available to it. No one with a brand new state of the art Mac book is fondly looking back wishing they still made em like the DOS processor.
    You could argue that these are two different cases. They are not. The PlayStation 4/ Xbox 1 are vastly superior machines to the PlayStation 2/ Xbox. So why is the product not improving? Other games are getting better. Just look at franchise staples like grand theft auto V and uncharted 4. Everyone will largely agree that these games linear progress has surpassed their predeccors.
    You want to honestly tell me that it's technical limitations that is holding madden back???? Don't get me wrong madden has been improving. But has been improving at a snails pace compared to other games. This leads me to believe there really is no motivation to innovate or break from the status quo.
    Therebelyell626
    The main problem that I think everyone can agree on. When it comes to innovation, especially innovation in technology things are supposed to improve not regress. People reflect on nfl 2k5 and even older maddens as the gold standard. But madden hasn't gotten better and some would even say with the introduction of CFM things have actually taken steps back.

    We can't even agree on that. There are people that feel Madden has more than surpassed those old football titles. I'm not one of them, lol, but there are more than a handful of people on this very site that believe Madden is the gold standard now. Not as good as it could be, or should be, but that it is the best NFL game to date.
    vannwolfhawk
    EA needs to hear the negatives (albeit in a constructive manner). That’s the only way they will add or fix what needs to be added or fixed.

    I welcome constructive criticism. I myself have offered it plenty of times. At no point have I ever said Madden is a perfect game. There are plenty of things I want to see in franchise mode in future versions of Madden. Heck, I told Clint Oldenburg to his face at EA PLAY that the M19 build on display felt slow and unresponsive at the line of scrimmage (aside: he did say that that was going to get cleaned up, there were other issues beyond QB signature animations in that build).
    Insinuating that the people who make this game are lazy, as you did earlier in this very thread, is not at all constructive.
    I’d love to your opinion and hear why other games are succeeding and going above and beyond like 2k is in the same yearly cycle that madden has with a considerably smaller dev team?

    Well for starters, I think Madden is very clearly succeeding in its own right. The strides the game has made over the past four or five cycles to me has been really impressive, particularly as a competitive game. I also haven't felt compelled to purchase an NBA 2K game recently, so I don't necessarily agree that they are succeeding above and beyond because nothing they've done has captured my interest. Based on what I have seen and read, however, I do consider NBA 2K to be a better single-player experience than Madden for a number of reasons.
    In short, my response is that I see both games succeeding in different ways.
    CM Hooe
    I welcome constructive criticism. I myself have offered it plenty of times. At no point have I ever said Madden is a perfect game. There are plenty of things I want to see in franchise mode in future versions of Madden. Heck, I told Clint Oldenburg to his face at EA PLAY that the M19 build on display felt slow and unresponsive at the line of scrimmage (aside: he did say that that was going to get cleaned up, there were other issues beyond QB signature animations in that build).
    Insinuating that the people who make this game are lazy, as you did earlier in this very thread, is not at all constructive.
    Well for starters, I think Madden is very clearly succeeding in its own right. The strides the game has made over the past four or five cycles to me has been really impressive, particularly as a competitive game. I also haven't felt compelled to purchase an NBA 2K game recently, so I don't necessarily agree that they are succeeding above and beyond because nothing they've done has captured my interest. Based on what I have seen and read, however, I do consider NBA 2K to be a better single-player experience than Madden for a number of reasons.
    In short, my response is that I see both games succeeding in different ways.

    You have some good points. But I think NBA 2k has surpassed madden even as a competitive title. I mean Jesus Christ they have a darn league complete with a draft and combine and everything. I would say that's taking your gaming pretty dang serious lol
    triplechin
    In FIFA they save replays of goals, some fouls, and some saves. Then you can see them at the end of the match with different angles and such. You can do the same with Madden. Save TDs, turnovers, and late game 1st downs and you can use that as a beginning for a little halftime or wrap up show.
    They already do this for the game you are playing. You get highlights between quarters and at halftime.
    Are you talking about taking those videos and using them for a show outside of when you are playing in a game? Then the highlight show would be of just your game. I am thinking from a 1 person CFM. A 32 person CFM that could work.
    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
    cable guy
    But doesn't EA make much more money off of Madden? Not in sales of units, but say MUT.
    I'm asking btw

    I would really be interested in the answer to this question as well.
    2K has a MyTeam mode just like MUT, but their MyPlayer mode is also a revenue producer not just in micro transactions but ad revenue as well. (Mountain Dew 3x3 tournaments, Ruffles 4 point tournament, product placement, etc. )
    We know 2K moves more units than Madden, but as far as profatability which one is superior? MUT from my experience is much more expensive than 2K but I only play MyCareer in 2K.
    Money talks.
    All things aside just look at all the things that nba 2k18 offers and tell me why madden cannot offer it. I mean madden would never allow a competition committee scenario like 2k where you can vote rule hanged because they are so darn sensitive about their intellectual property.
    But look at 2k's draft process. In all fairness madden has tried to improve the draft this year, but in 2k18 you can work out individual prospects and put them through drills. 2k gives you a full combine with a laundry list of measurements and intangibles. Madden gives you a combine score. NBA 2k keeps track of every stat, every record, every accomplishment for the duration of an entire franchise career. Madden tries this but does not do that great of a job. 2k's in game commentary adapats to the goings on of the league and tells stories that shape your franchise.
    2k just gives you so much more to give you the feeling that you are part of the league and that what you do matters. Unfortunately madden just does not. Roadman your right about one thing if your strictly a competitive player then his game has improved vastly.
    CM Hooe

    I also haven't felt compelled to purchase an NBA 2K game recently, so I don't necessarily agree that they are succeeding above and beyond because nothing they've done has captured my interest. Based on what I have seen and read, however, I do consider NBA 2K to be a better single-player experience than Madden for a number of reasons.
    In short, my response is that I see both games succeeding in different ways.

    Truth of the matter is Madden is not growing at the rate the market is being the only football game out there.
    NBA 2K has grown astronomically. They are pretty much lining themselves up to compete within their own company against games like GTA.
    Not only do they have fleshed out full franchise modes with customizations up the ying yang, but modes for everyone all in the same game.
    It has overtaken football and Madden for that matter where now the NBA has decided to make a professional E-Leauge fronting all of the upfront costs because of the success and authentic manner of the series.
    Your attention is little when it comes to what 9 million or so out there increasing each year which was once unheard of for a basketball game let alone a sports game.
    In terms of comparison, they are above madden what playstation is above xbox and it's not even close.
    Even if they don't get it the first time, I never hear them say stuff like "it's hard" because that's what they do, figure out how to make stuff work or balance, which is why they always come with a boatload of improvements and additions each year.
    There is nothing in Madden that equates to what freelance offense is in NBA2K and that's just one example.
    A fully customizable franchise with injuries tied to the leagues entire history, logo editor and the ability to play it as a GM only is something I dont think Madden has ever had.
    In fact Lakers24 posted his entire wishlist in one thread which ended up being probably the most liked thread in this forums history, and 2k put almost everything from his list in the game in a year's time.
    https://forums.operationsports.com/forums/nba-2k-basketball/755798-next-step-immersion-me.html
    Im sure we all want these games to improve in some aspect, but you seem to dismiss everything people say in here all of the time, while the series continues to go lacking.
    I roll with the consumer first.
    jfsolo
    Most of OS, maybe, but everywhere else they would be vilified. Although they seem to care less about Metacritic than they have in the past, focusing more on player retention year round, a version that was light in new features would review pretty poorly(high 7's low 8's IMO) and that would not be received well by anyone in upper management I'm sure.
    Gets back to the subscription service vs annual purchase. Polishing up existing features should be done in patches. It does not need a major release party. Adding totally new features should be a marketing story for EA. Feeling the need to add new features annually just for an August release is counter productive.
    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
    Therebelyell626
    You have some good points. But I think NBA 2k has surpassed madden even as a competitive title. I mean Jesus Christ they have a darn league complete with a draft and combine and everything. I would say that's taking your gaming pretty dang serious lol

    I'm speaking more to mechanics than exposure. Madden 18 might be the most balanced, most consistent, and most reliable online head-to-head sports game I've ever touched.
    On the exposure front, however: last I read (about a month ago via PastaPadre), that NBA 2K league has been a colossal flop so far. 2K's e-sport scene simply can't touch Madden's right now. The Madden scene admittedly isn't huge relative to Fortnite or Overwatch, but it's been around for over a decade and a firmly entrenched fixture on the periphery of the scene because it grew organically over time.
    bucky60
    Was NCAA Football 5x5. And what does 5X5 have to do with a Pregame/Half Time/Postgame show?

    Preferences. My point is 5 players are easier to work with than 11 per side. I would be more interested in comparing NBA2K to NBA Live 19 which apparently has made great leaps, than to compare a basketball game to a football game.
    CM Hooe
    I'm speaking more to mechanics than exposure. Madden 18 might be the most balanced, most consistent, and most reliable online head-to-head sports game I've ever touched.
    On the exposure front, however: last I read (about a month ago via PastaPadre), that NBA 2K league has been a colossal flop so far. 2K's e-sport scene simply can't touch Madden's right now. The Madden scene admittedly isn't huge relative to Fortnite or Overwatch, but it's been around for over a decade and a firmly entrenched fixture on the periphery of the scene because it grew organically over time.

    What mechanics?
    2K has
    Pro-Am
    The Park - with a sandbox neighborhood
    and a separate version tied to their E-League where players are getting salaries, free housing, benefits medical, dental, etc paid for by actual NBA teams
    and you're going to tell me that its a flop because you read it on pastapadre.com?
    4thQtrStre5S
    Preferences. My point is 5 players are easier to work with than 11 per side. I would be more interested in comparing NBA2K to NBA Live 19 which apparently has made great leaps, than to compare a basketball game to a football game.

    I wholeheartedly disagree, and would like to know why you say this?
    It's not just the number of players but basketball is a continually moving game that has many aspects to account for that would make your head spin.
    We could do it line by line but that's another conversation, but when you guys say this please explain how, and how much do you know about developing a great basketball game with tons of fleshed out modes.
    23
    I wholeheartedly disagree, and would like to know why you say this?
    It's not just the number of players but basketball is a continually moving game that has many aspects to account for that would make your head spin.
    We could do it line by line but that's another conversation, but when you guys say this please explain how, and how much do you know about developing a great basketball game with tons of fleshed out modes.

    If you're the professional programmer, then maybe you can tell me how my perspective is wrong?
    Curious, how many zones are in 2K and their logics?
    NOt seeing constant player movement here...Still how is 5v5 more complicated than 11v11?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV4xCUJgLt0
    4thQtrStre5S
    If you're the professional programmer, then maybe you can tell me how my perspective is wrong?
    Curious, how many zones are in 2K and their logics?

    What is it you're asking about 2k? How many offenses there are? Plays and variations as well as counters, Freelances per team? defensive settings to counter those accounting for each player, team formation, coaching strategy to boot?
    I was fortunate enough to get some schooling in programming and help out on some AAA game stuff recently so I know more than not.
    I've seen a team of devs take over a day fixing on a single issue, dealing with system memory issues and things the average person has no idea about.
    If you want to show a shakedown video, tell me what play they just ran at the beginning and what that play entails?
    CM Hooe
    I welcome constructive criticism. I myself have offered it plenty of times. At no point have I ever said Madden is a perfect game. There are plenty of things I want to see in franchise mode in future versions of Madden. Heck, I told Clint Oldenburg to his face at EA PLAY that the M19 build on display felt slow and unresponsive at the line of scrimmage (aside: he did say that that was going to get cleaned up, there were other issues beyond QB signature animations in that build).
    Insinuating that the people who make this game are lazy, as you did earlier in this very thread, is not at all constructive.
    Well for starters, I think Madden is very clearly succeeding in its own right. The strides the game has made over the past four or five cycles to me has been really impressive, particularly as a competitive game. I also haven't felt compelled to purchase an NBA 2K game recently, so I don't necessarily agree that they are succeeding above and beyond because nothing they've done has captured my interest. Based on what I have seen and read, however, I do consider NBA 2K to be a better single-player experience than Madden for a number of reasons.
    In short, my response is that I see both games succeeding in different ways.

    I agree but it was a joke and maybe I should have put a LOL in there but I did say it “feels like” and you only partly quoted my post as I think you understand where it came from. But you having friends there also makes it difficult to be totally unbiased. But it’s also why I did say constructive as I was referring to me as well...
    As far as the game and feedback go’s, my dad always told me never to be a yes man or surround yourself with yes men. Why? If you have people working for you always telling you what you want to hear how can you ever grow or expect your business to go where you want it too?! We don’t need yes men telling EA how great their game is, Otherwise it will never become what it could be or in the timeframe that it should. But, I also agree though that it has improved in the last 3-4 years especially under Rex. I’ve said it before, but it’s at a snails pace for me. They fixed a ton of legacy issues last year. That did not go unappreciated! But in no way have I heard or seen that same path this year which is concerning to me. Do I appreciate the things they did do? Yes! But seriously I’m not sure there has been a madden game with this few of big features added dating maybe back to the jump to the next gen consoles and the bare bones we got back then? I mean most people are ecstatic about the additions to CFM, but that’s because it hasn’t seen anything done in years not because the features are wow this is awesome. I’m super excited they finally touched on CPU gameplanning as I have created playbooks for the community the last 3 years to fix the dumb CPU play calling. I’m curious to see how they went about it and if it was a band aid fix or not? I’m also curious to see if this is added upon next year or in the 10 years. To elaborate on that a bit though 2k went to a new motion tech last year and had to completely start over with plays and redo them 1 by 1 as well as defensively redo them for rotations. It was a stepback year in that regard, but you would have never even noticed it was if they didn’t tell us. Now they are building on that tech...
    You mentioned telling Clint that it felt slow at the LOS. Well ya everything is now slowed down right? So that will be a adjustment. I had not heard that from anyone yet though... What was slow Or unresponsive to you? The QB cadences? I did see warped speed qb drop back animations that didn’t match the new RPM and the OL sprinting to the line at super speeds though. What about testing the legacy issues and giving feedback. I have sent clint numerous issues and always make sure to leave a positive in there so he doesn’t disregard it.
    Anyways, you not having 2k18 makes sense now in not understanding the difference in what 2 companies can do or are capable of. You say nothing they have done has peaked your interest? What modes do you play and what would peak your interest in 2k? What do they NOT have that you do want and that would make you buy it? I will say you for sure missed out on the best playing CPU AI in a b-ball game ever IMO...
    23
    What mechanics?
    2K has
    Pro-Am
    The Park - with a sandbox neighborhood
    and a separate version tied to their E-League where players are getting salaries, free housing, benefits medical, dental, etc paid for by actual NBA teams
    and you're going to tell me that its a flop because you read it on pastapadre.com?

    Dang! They get all that???? Looks like I need to start playing more 2k lol
    23
    What is it you're asking about 2k? How many offenses there are? Plays and variations as well as counters, Freelances per team? defensive settings to counter those accounting for each player, team formation, coaching strategy to boot?
    I was fortunate enough to get some schooling in programming and help out on some AAA game stuff recently so I know more than not.
    I've seen a team of devs take over a day fixing on a single issue, dealing with system memory issues and things the average person has no idea about.
    If you want to show a shakedown video, tell me what play they just ran at the beginning and what that play entails?

    I just want to know how it is harder to program 5v5 game than an 11v11? It seems that if a basketball game is being compared to a football game, then those doing the comparison must believe the programming difficulties are equal, yes?
    I also assume basketball defenses use zone style defensive logic. Was curious how many zone variations are used in NBA2k versus say M18, including the linemen?
    TIL that 5 on 5 requires just as much computation as 11 on 11.
    The game of pro basketball has been reduced to running Pick and Roll and shooting 3s. The idea that basketball is as strategically complex as football is laughable, and anyone who suggests as much should have their opinion on the subject disregarded without further thought.
    23
    Truth of the matter is Madden is not growing at the rate the market is being the only football game out there.
    NBA 2K has grown astronomically. They are pretty much lining themselves up to compete within their own company against games like GTA.
    Not only do they have fleshed out full franchise modes with customizations up the ying yang, but modes for everyone all in the same game.
    It has overtaken football and Madden for that matter where now the NBA has decided to make a professional E-Leauge fronting all of the upfront costs because of the success and authentic manner of the series.
    Your attention is little when it comes to what 9 million or so out there increasing each year which was once unheard of for a basketball game let alone a sports game.
    In terms of comparison, they are above madden what playstation is above xbox and it's not even close.
    Even if they don't get it the first time, I never hear them say stuff like "it's hard" because that's what they do, figure out how to make stuff work or balance, which is why they always come with a boatload of improvements and additions each year.
    There is nothing in Madden that equates to what freelance offense is in NBA2K and that's just one example.
    A fully customizable franchise with injuries tied to the leagues entire history, logo editor and the ability to play it as a GM only is something I dont think Madden has ever had.
    In fact Lakers24 posted his entire wishlist in one thread which ended up being probably the most liked thread in this forums history, and 2k put almost everything from his list in the game in a year's time.
    https://forums.operationsports.com/forums/nba-2k-basketball/755798-next-step-immersion-me.html
    Im sure we all want these games to improve in some aspect, but you seem to dismiss everything people say in here all of the time, while the series continues to go lacking.
    I roll with the consumer first.

    Well said! And i’m re quoting it all because well I felt like it!
    4thQtrStre5S
    I just want to know how it is harder to program 5v5 game than an 11v11? It seems that if a basketball game is being compared to a football game, then those doing the comparison must believe the programming difficulties are equal, yes?
    I also assume basketball defenses use zone style defensive logic. Was curious how many zone variations are used in NBA2k versus say M18, including the linemen?

    You made the statement so im asking you. I named a few things in 5on5 alone and you still haven't given me an answer.
    Throwing out blanket statements like that where you have no proof won't cut it.
    Basketball uses far more complex defensive schemes than just zones in the professional leagues because pros beat zones with specific kinds of attacks. It's an entirely different level than college ball.
    How many ways can you defend a simple pick and roll? Many, and that isn't even a play but a staple of the game. How do you defend the Warriors Cyclone play which basically has about 20 play variations out of that one play?
    How do you defend the Houston Rockets full 21 Series of plays? It becomes way more than trying to throw out a zone hoping and wishing to get a stop because you'll be blown out before halftime.
    2K has people who worked on aeronautic jet engines on their team.. it doesn't get any better than that... and you know what, they still need to find ways to solve complex problems, build new systems every single year, and the stuff the engineers do on a daily would make a normal person quit.
    23
    You made the statement so im asking you. I named a few things in 5on5 alone and you still haven't given me an answer.
    Throwing out blanket statements like that where you have no proof won't cut it.
    Basketball uses far more complex defensive schemes than just zones in the professional leagues because pros beat zones with specific kinds of attacks. It's an entirely different level than college ball.
    How many ways can you defend a simple pick and roll? Many, and that isn't even a play but a staple of the game. How do you defend the Warriors Cyclone play which basically has about 20 play variations out of that one play?
    How do you defend the Houston Rockets full 21 Series of plays? It becomes way more than trying to throw out a zone hoping and wishing to get a stop because you'll be blown out before halftime.
    2K has people who worked on aeronautic jet engines on their team.. it doesn't get any better than that... and you know what, they still need to find ways to solve complex problems, build new systems every single year, and the stuff the engineers do on a daily would make a normal person quit.

    Oh, we want "proof now"? Okay, in a previous post, which was just quoted by another forum member, you spoke of the "market" and how madden isn't increasing with the market... What are ur references to this market, and what market are you referring to?
    As for basketball, I am asking u because I made a perspective statement, and u replied by giving me the impression u are a professional level programmer. So I am hoping u will teach me the differences between 5v5 basketball and 11v11 football programming that makes them equally comparable? You haven't proven anything...You have made statements, assertions...
    Kingd803
    Yeah. I agree. I think people would be over the moon happy if they “faked” the halftime show just like APF or 2k5.
    But I mean really at this point we shouldn’t be wanting the game to be at least that good. We should want it to be even better than those games. And it’s not. It’s far behind.
    Madden is the video game representation of America’s most popular sport. It should be leading the way. It should be better than nba or mlb. Not trying to catch up to a 14 and 10’year old game.
    He bottom line is this. If it has been done on previous consoles and games. It should be able to be done now for madden. And if they can’t figure out how to do it, then THEY need to change how they’re working. Or how madden is made. It’s THEIR problem. Not ours.
    I mean I think that speaks more to the developers on 2k5 that they were able to fake it so well on that weak hardware.
    I mean ****. Here is my biggest point. Even when the madden team doesn’t “fake” things. And does things the way they think should be done. They are still implemented poorly. Or seem half finished. So maybe they should try faking more things.
    I don’t care how they get there. I just want the end result to look better than nba 2k or APF. I want my football game to blow me away. I want to love a new football game.
    Last thing. Nba live has a cool ESPN package for their halftime show. It’s not great. But it’s pretty cool. And I enjoyed it. The live team can do that. But the madden team can’t?
    What if they faked the highlight show showing Lions RB running for an 80 yard TD only to look at the stats and see the Lions RB only got 50 yards the whole game. Faking the highlights is pointless if the stats do not correspond.
    I would rather them get it right than toss up "fake news."
    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
    4thQtrStre5S
    Oh, we want "proof now"? Okay, in a previous post, which was just quoted by another forum member, you spoke of the "market" and how madden isn't increasing with the market... What are ur references to this market, and what market are you referring to?
    As for basketball, I am asking u because I made a perspective statement, and u replied by giving me the impression u are a professional level programmer. So I am hoping u will teach me the differences between 5v5 basketball and 11v11 football programming that makes them equally comparable?

    NPD is one, and people who work on these games that watch the numbers because it's their job... the market is the gaming market, and sports as well....especially with less games in the genre than we've had since what the PS1 maybe further back than that.
    Im not making anything comparable, im asking you to show us that making a football is more complex than a basketball game. If you're using this as a reason why Madden is being outsold or not progressing fast enough even though it's an exclusive then that's all I need to know.
    BTW, I was at EA Play as well, and I was told by a certain youtuber/gamechanger who was a bit upset that he got that same excuse about why some things aren't fixed or changed. "its hard, we can't just push a button"
    People don't want to hear that. They want to know how you looked to improve the game, made it closer to its real life counterpart, and that their feedback is really meaningful which doesn't seem to be the case with this game or EA in general.
    They gave me the impression that some things were added because they thought it looked cool. That's just me though but it was my impression from what was told me by one of the devs explaining some gameplay stuff.
    Nevermind if it made sense or not lol.
    We also had an indie dev there with us in the conversation and he could see through some of the excuses as well with knowing how game development works. They do what they set out to do from the beginning, regardless of what you say here.
    vannwolfhawk

    Anyways, you not having 2k18 makes sense now in not understanding the difference in what 2 companies can do or are capable of. You say nothing they have done has peaked your interest? What modes do you play and what would peak your interest in 2k? What do they NOT have that you do want and that would make you buy it? I will say you for sure missed out on the best playing CPU AI in a b-ball game ever IMO...

    The last time we had this conversation Chris was kind enough to answer. His answer was the NBA season is too long and he would never make it through an entire season. Said he couldn't even make it through half the season. The season is too long.
    We were kind enough to give Chris suggestions on how to shorten the NBA2K season and also suggested he could sim games. Before giving these suggestions, I had to SMH a bit.
    Oh, and we should stop comparing Madden and NBA2K. I was told we can only compare Madden to CITIES:SKYLINES.
    23
    NPD is one, and people who work on these games that watch the numbers because it's their job... the market is the gaming market, and sports as well....especially with less games in the genre than we've had since what the PS1 maybe further back than that.
    Im not making anything comparable, im asking you to show us that making a football is more complex than a basketball game. If you're using this as a reason why Madden is being outsold or not progressing fast enough even though it's an exclusive then that's all I need to know.

    LOL...Alright, obviously you have not been taught about sourcing ur assertions, and I do not have time to research your claims..
    I made a perspective statement, essentially saying, I see 11v11 more difficult to program than 5v5. Simple as that.
    I am curious how zones work in NBA 2k, not the NBA, so I can get an understanding of the 2k basketball game which I can compare to Madden.
    I do not know who works for 2K and if they are "people who worked on aeronautic jet engines on their team." I do know you made that statement, but you seem to wish me to accept your word for this, yes?
    I get the feeling you have no desire to really answer a question where I honestly admitted I had no knowledge, in regards to programming, but where u gave the impression you were well versed.
    Again, I just believe that comparing 5v5 players to programming 11v11 player programming is difficult to compare equally. Nothing more. My opinion.
    4thQtrStre5S

    I made a perspective statement, essentially saying, I see 11v11 more difficult to program than 5v5. Simple as that.
    Again, I just believe that comparing 5v5 players to programming 11v11 player programming is difficult to compare equally. Nothing more. My opinion.

    Fair enough, your admitting it was an uneducated opinion. I think 23 responded because your initial post responding to mine, you stated it more like fact instead of opinion. But you realizing it's just your opinion is fair enough.
    bucky60
    The last time we had this conversation Chris was kind enough to answer. His answer was the NBA season is too long and he would never make it through an entire season. Said he couldn't even make it through half the season. The season is too long.
    We were kind enough to give Chris suggestions on how to shorten the NBA2K season and also suggested he could sim games. Before giving these suggestions, I had to SMH a bit.
    Oh, and we should stop comparing Madden and NBA2K. I was told we can only compare Madden to CITIES:SKYLINES.

    LOL! So, the real life NBA season length doesn’t interest him not that 2k hasn’t been innovative enough for him. Got it...
    4thQtrStre5S
    LOL...Alright, obviously you have not been taught about sourcing ur assertions, and I do not have time to research your claims..
    I made a perspective statement, essentially saying, I see 11v11 more difficult to program than 5v5. Simple as that.
    I am curious how zones work in NBA 2k, not the NBA, so I can get an understanding of the 2k basketball game which I can compare to Madden.
    I do not know who works for 2K and if they are "people who worked on aeronautic jet engines on their team." I do know you made that statement, but you seem to wish me to accept your word for this, yes?
    I get the feeling you have no desire to really answer a question where I honestly admitted I had no knowledge, in regards to programming, but where u gave the impression you were well versed.
    Again, I just believe that comparing 5v5 players to programming 11v11 player programming is difficult to compare equally. Nothing more. My opinion.

    Well NPD is no longer public..but where do you think people in gaming media get their numbers from? You don't know much about the gaming industry do you?
    How much do you even know about this stuff because you don't seem to know much but as I said that opinion is yours nonetheless it has nothing of substance to back it up.
    If you want to know what Zones are in the game you can easily look that up, but that has no bearing on what types of defenses are currently structured in the game's code as if that's the only thing that they run in basketball when in fact the pros go away from that for that very reason, pros bust zones up way too easy. You seem to not care about what other multitudes of options were programmed in the game, and I gave you examples.
    If you want to know about guys working on nasa stuff
    http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/nfl2k5-developer-q-and-a.60769972/
    Shawn Lee has worked on the 2K5 football series for Visual Concepts since the very first 2K. A football fan for life, he studied aeronautical engineering at Purdue University. Before Visual Concepts, Shawn Lee worked at Lockheed Martin, where he designed various secret projects that he still can't talk about.

    That same guy now works on nba2k fyi, but that's already old public knowledge. Some of your questions would be answered with simple google searches.
    Anyway, those things I said to you are facts though. If you wanna join the guys who always make excuses for things then fine, but im not one of y'all lol.
    bucky60
    Fair enough, your admitting it was an uneducated opinion. I think 23 responded because your initial post responding to mine, you stated it more like fact instead of opinion. But you realizing it's just your opinion is fair enough.

    You are correct. I went back and I see that my initial response was as if I was stating a fact which I could prove.. My bad..
    I apologize to all who I confused, especially "23" for the misunderstanding.
    23
    Well NPD is no longer public..but where do you think people in gaming media get their numbers from? You don't know much about the gaming industry do you?
    How much do you even know about this stuff because you don't seem to know much but as I said that opinion is yours nonetheless it has nothing of substance to back it up.
    If you want to know what Zones are in the game you can easily look that up, but that has no bearing on what types of defenses are currently structured in the game's code as if that's the only thing that they run in basketball when in fact the pros go away from that for that very reason, pros bust zones up way too easy. You seem to not care about what other multitudes of options were programmed in the game, and I gave you examples.
    If you want to know about guys working on nasa stuff
    http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/nfl2k5-developer-q-and-a.60769972/
    That same guy now works on nba2k fyi, but that's already old public knowledge. Some of your questions would be answered with simple google searches.
    Anyway, those things I said to you are facts though. If you wanna join the guys who always make excuses for things then fine, but im not one of y'all lol.

    I know enough about the market. I was trying to figure out where you got your numbers and how you were formulating your position.
    According to the following site, Basketball has about 825 million fans. American Football didn't even make the list. Table Tennis makes the list. So the market, when I asked, I was curious if we were looking at US numbers only or all markets where the games are sold? Then age groups should be considered to assist in finding a proper market analysis of how strong Madden is in relation to NBA2k or gaming in general.
    https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/what-are-the-most-popular-sports-in-the-world.html
    According to NPD, NBA2k18 ranked top 10.. Madden 18 is not listed in the following link. I would hope an NBA game would outsell and American Football game.
    https://www.npd.com/wps/portal/npd/us/news/top-10/
    MArket size, without looking up where EA and 2K sells their respective sports games, dictates that basketball should sell more.
    4thQtrStre5S
    LOL...Alright, obviously you have not been taught about sourcing ur assertions, and I do not have time to research your claims..
    I made a perspective statement, essentially saying, I see 11v11 more difficult to program than 5v5. Simple as that.
    I am curious how zones work in NBA 2k, not the NBA, so I can get an understanding of the 2k basketball game which I can compare to Madden.
    I do not know who works for 2K and if they are "people who worked on aeronautic jet engines on their team." I do know you made that statement, but you seem to wish me to accept your word for this, yes?
    I get the feeling you have no desire to really answer a question where I honestly admitted I had no knowledge, in regards to programming, but where u gave the impression you were well versed.
    Again, I just believe that comparing 5v5 players to programming 11v11 player programming is difficult to compare equally. Nothing more. My opinion.

    I have posted about this before somewhere and I get your saying we aren’t comparing apples to apples but will tell you a bit...
    Defensively on a on ball screen you have multiple options. Do I go over, under, switch, trap, or do I soft hedge, hard hedge, catch hedge, ice, jam, switch, or trap. In each of those scenarios and do the math in how many you could get by mixing all of them you have to have the other players rotate. How these players rotate is used in your coaching adjustments. How does player x guard player y? Does he play him tight, play the gap, sag off, etc. then how does the defense respond to the person with the ball? Do they help, double on the drive, or stay home. Same go’s for the post player. Do you want to double on the catch, dribble, or dig in on him? What about how we play vs a shooter or non shooter coming off pin downs or staggers? Do we want to go over the screen, under the screens, or switch the screens? Again, everyone else has to be coded to rotate under that circumstance and how you chose to defend all the above scenarios. Keep in mind this is 1 scenario out of 1 play defensively.
    Offensively you have guys reading to curl, flare fill, or cut. Which organically makes all the other players have to act accordingly. When you break it all down even though there are 10 players compared to 22 it’s super deep in 2k. Also keep in mind they have 500-1000 plays that need to be coded as well for defensively having counters to how the offense is playing at any given time. Is a player hot, cold, etc? Each scenario that the CPU might need to defend it at anytime throughout a game needs to be accounted for in their ACE (Adaptipe Coaching engine) system. Also keep in mind these adjustments happen on the fly by the CPU AI all game long from start to finish.
    In football how many coverages are there? I think if in a zone you can separate by position right? So then break down the route concepts from there out of different looks. I honestly don’t THINK it would be as hard in madden actually as it would 2k considering.
    I’m sure I’m missing things in 2k and that’s just on the fly and off the top of my head...
    vannwolfhawk
    I have posted about this before somewhere and I get your saying we aren’t comparing apples to apples but will tell you a bit...
    Defensively on a ball screen you have multiple options. Do I go over, under, switch, trap, or do I soft hedge, hard hedge, catch hedge, ice, jam, switch, or trap. In each of those scenarios and do the math in how many you could get by mixing all of them you have to have the other players rotate. How these players rotate is used in your coaching adjustments. How does player x guard player y? Does he play him tight, play the gap, sag off, etc. then how does the defense respond to the person with the ball? Do they help, double on the drive, or stay home. Same go’s for the post player. Do you want to double on the catch, dribble, or dig in on him? What about how we play vs a shooter or non shooter coming off pin downs or staggers? Do we want to go over the screen, under the screens, or switch the screens? Again, everyone else has to be coded to rotate under that circumstance and how you chose to defend all the above scenarios. Keep in mind this is 1 scenario out of 1 play defensively.
    Offensively you have guys reading to curl, flare fill, or cut. Which organically makes all the other players have to act accordingly. When you break it all down even though there are 10 players compared to 22 it’s super deep in 2k. Also keep in mind they have 500-1000 plays that need to be coded to defensively for counters to how the offense is playing as well as each scenario that the CPU might need to defend it at anytime throughout a game. Also keep in mind these adjustments happen on the fly by the CPU AI.
    In football how many coverages are there? I think if I’m a zone you can separate by position right? So then break down the route concepts from there out of different looks. I honestly don’t THINK it would be as hard in madden actually as it would 2k considering.
    I’m sure I’m missing things in 2k and that’s just on the fly and off the top of my head...

    Alright, excellent. Thank you for the breakdown. So, defensively about 11 zones? That was more than I would have guessed.
    In M18 I have over 20 based on the following link. I do not know how to consider the logic in the trenches. Obviously offensive and defensive line play needs a lot of work.
    https://www.madden-school.com/madden-18-feature-position-specific-defensive-hot-routes/
    4thQtrStre5S
    Alright, excellent. Thank you for the breakdown. So, defensively about 11 zones? That was more than I would have guessed.
    In M18 I have over 20 based on the following link. I do not know how to consider the logic in the trenches. Obviously offensive and defensive line play needs a lot of work.
    https://www.madden-school.com/madden-18-feature-position-specific-defensive-hot-routes/

    11? Where did you get that?
    Edit: Ok... so let’s say I’m hard hedging with my center. I can go over, under, etc with my guard. You can get 5-6 different pnr scenarios out of 1 choice. Then 5-6 more out of soft hedge, etc. that’s just for on ball screen defense. That’s not factoring in the other things I mentioned previously. I’d say you could defend 25-50 different ways if not more in just 1 play or in how the offense is set up. Keep in mind 1 pnr might come from the sideline, wing, top key, etc. so you might have 3 players on the weak side in 1 play while 2 on another and 1 on the strong side. My point is it’s crazy deep and very much in tuned to real life and what we see on the court and tv. Is there room for improvement? Of course! But that’s the depth of just 1 play...
    vannwolfhawk
    11? Where did you get that?

    "Defensively on a ball screen you have multiple options. Do I go over, under, switch, trap, or do I soft hedge, hard hedge, catch hedge, ice, jam, switch, or trap."
    I do not know basketball terminology. So I was hoping NBA2k zones had labels which could be listed to then compare, at top level first, where zone logic stood between the games.
    I was hoping to departmentalize zones for comparison to make it easier to compare and understand as opposed to comparing both games as a whole..
    I think one thing that should be kept in mind too, is the length of time any of these developers have been working on their given series. I don't know about NBA 2k but it seems like Madden has several people coming and going every few years. I would think that would slow down the innovation of a game.
    4thQtrStre5S
    "Defensively on a ball screen you have multiple options. Do I go over, under, switch, trap, or do I soft hedge, hard hedge, catch hedge, ice, jam, switch, or trap."
    I do not know basketball terminology. So I was hoping NBA2k zones had labels which could be listed to then compare, at top level first, where zone logic stood between the games.
    I was hoping to departmentalize zones for comparison to make it easier to compare and understand as opposed to comparing both games as a whole..

    Gotcha, sorry! I thought you understood a bit. I did edit my above post though. Hopefully that makes more sense...
    Also that example was just for man to man defense. They do have zone defenses as well but that’s not as deep and not nearly as much. But in Madden in man to man defense you guard your man. Pretty simple. In 2k zones are simpler than madden which zones need the majority of work. But that’s why they have touched in zones 3 years in a row now and I will say madden has gotten better each year defensively in zones! But unfortunately they neglect all other areas and just put to much focus on that 1 areausually...
    vannwolfhawk
    Gotcha, sorry! I thought you understood a bit. I did edit my above post though. Hopefully that makes more sense...

    My fault here in that I didn't really make it clear how lacking in knowledge I was in regards to basketball. Honestly, I just started really watching it during this year's post-season. The playoffs got me interested more in basketball and I recently purchased NBA2k17 just to check it out. But I have only had the game about 3 weeks and really do not know a lot about the game and all it allows a user to do.
    From your edited comment above, I do hope Madden will one day allow users to micro-manage coverages. I would like the ability to tell a CB to watch a slant or drag, specifically. It appears NBA2k allows for more user control, which I like.
    Also don't forget that each AI controlled player on a Madden defense now behaves with full knowledge of the other's players assignments and they adjust their behavior accordingly. The number of possible permutations in a game of Madden is orders of magnitude higher than those in a basketball game.
    5 on 5 basketball was achieved in video games years before Madden debuted. It's just easier to do because it has fewer moving parts which means less processing power is required.
    In terms of meta-strategy football is also much more complex because it has so many more game states than basketball. In basketball one only needs to consider the score, the time left on the clock, who has possession, and the current foul situation. In football you must account for the score, possession, and time remaining from every possible combination of field position and down and distance.
    The phrase "apples and oranges" doesn't even do justice to how unfair the comparison is. It's more like video game football is chess and video game basketball is checkers.
    Was browsing some Reddit threads on NBA2K18 defense. Seems like just as many complaints about their defense as there is about Madden defense.
    Seeing complaints that the defense is not very good AI-wise, but there are plenty of options to manually set defense. And like with Madden, people complain that they shouldn't have to manually tell their defense what to do and when all the time. That the defense AI and ratings should handle a lot of the situations. Someone on a thread noted that a coach doesn't tell a player like Curry how to setup on a play; paraphrasing. I see that same complaint in Madden threads.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/NBA2k/comments/6yhwot/defensive_ai_in_2k18_appears_to_have_the_same/
    4thQtrStre5S
    Was browsing some Reddit threads on NBA2K18 defense. Seems like just as many complaints about their defense as there is about Madden defense.
    Seeing complaints that the defense is not very good AI-wise, but there are plenty of options to manually set defense. And like with Madden, people complain that they shouldn't have to manually tell their defense what to do and when all the time. That the defense AI and ratings should handle a lot of the situations. Someone on a thread noted that a coach doesn't tell a player like Curry how to setup on a play; paraphrasing. I see that same complaint in Madden threads.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/NBA2k/comments/6yhwot/defensive_ai_in_2k18_appears_to_have_the_same/

    I'm not saying that 2K18 is flawless, but take anything that subreddit says with a grain of salt. The place is an echo chamber of negativity and complaining.
    stinkubus
    Also don't forget that each AI controlled player on a Madden defense now behaves with full knowledge of the other's players assignments and they adjust their behavior accordingly. The number of possible permutations in a game of Madden is orders of magnitude higher than those in a basketball game.
    5 on 5 basketball was achieved in video games years before Madden debuted. It's just easier to do because it has fewer moving parts which means less processing power is required.
    In terms of meta-strategy football is also much more complex because it has so many more game states than basketball. In basketball one only needs to consider the score, the time left on the clock, who has possession, and the current foul situation. In football you must account for the score, possession, and time remaining from every possible combination of field position and down and distance.
    The phrase "apples and oranges" doesn't even do justice to how unfair the comparison is. It's more like video game football is chess and video game basketball is checkers.

    I digress, you are right “it’s just too hard” because there are 11 or 22 people to account for. SMH what’s the excuse for cfm?
    4thQtrStre5S
    Was browsing some Reddit threads on NBA2K18 defense. Seems like just as many complaints about their defense as there is about Madden defense.
    Seeing complaints that the defense is not very good AI-wise, but there are plenty of options to manually set defense. And like with Madden, people complain that they shouldn't have to manually tell their defense what to do and when all the time. That the defense AI and ratings should handle a lot of the situations. Someone on a thread noted that a coach doesn't tell a player like Curry how to setup on a play; paraphrasing. I see that same complaint in Madden threads.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/NBA2k/comments/6yhwot/defensive_ai_in_2k18_appears_to_have_the_same/

    I don't go there, but our son does sometimes about his favorite basketball team.
    I had to chuckle reading some of the comments, someone goes back to play 2k13 because the AI was more realistic.
    roadman
    I don't go there, but our son does sometimes about his favorite basketball team.
    I had to chuckle reading some of the comments, someone goes back to play 2k13 because the AI was more realistic.

    I am with you, I do not go to Reddit. I found a number of the comments funny too.
    4thQtrStre5S
    Was browsing some Reddit threads on NBA2K18 defense. Seems like just as many complaints about their defense as there is about Madden defense.
    Seeing complaints that the defense is not very good AI-wise, but there are plenty of options to manually set defense. And like with Madden, people complain that they shouldn't have to manually tell their defense what to do and when all the time. That the defense AI and ratings should handle a lot of the situations. Someone on a thread noted that a coach doesn't tell a player like Curry how to setup on a play; paraphrasing. I see that same complaint in Madden threads.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/NBA2k/comments/6yhwot/defensive_ai_in_2k18_appears_to_have_the_same/

    Lol you are reaching now. I am a college basketball coach and I can tell you I do tell my players how to defend a player, play, etc throughout a game. Lol! And it’s by no means perfect in 2k, but most people like in madden play in play now. Totally different experience in cfm as well as my league in 2k. One of the major reasons is 2k had teams help defense sliders at 50 and could not be adjusted in a roster. So the gameplay with that not done isn’t as good. Once that’s tweaked it’s completely different. Also, ACE could be on or off. If they make 1 adjustment it can override ACE. So like another poster said take with a grain of salt. Basketball is my number 1 and is how I make a living so don’t you think I’d be pretty hard on them if it wasn’t done very well?
    vannwolfhawk
    Lol you are reaching now. I am a college basketball coach and I can tell you I do tell my players how to defend a player, play, etc throughout a game. Lol! And it’s by no means perfect in 2k, but most people like in madden play in play now. Totally different experience in cfm as well as my league in 2k. One of the major reasons is 2k had teams help defense sliders at 50 and could not be adjusted in a roster. So the gameplay with that not done isn’t as good. Once that’s tweaked it’s completely different. Also, ACE could be on or off. If they make 1 adjustment it can override ACE. So like another poster said take with a grain of salt. Basketball is my number 1 and is how I make a living so don’t you think I’d be pretty hard on them if it wasn’t done very well?

    Okay. But are you telling your players stuff because they do not know, or because you are reminding them what to look for and how to react? Sounds like in 2K the user has to manually tell the players how to do something, outside base AI logic, because they will not respond according to ratings alone, as opposed to reminding players.
    I think from a game perspective, it should be fun. I do not know if you would be hard on a game, especially if you understand that it is just a game.
    vannwolfhawk
    I even did a quick video about this same thing as a guy on OS was complaining about cpu defense. Then he loved and praised it...
    https://youtu.be/dqmYKiWl7V0

    I am not done watching ur video, but obviously, you know what ur talking about. I wish Madden had the option depth, but I assume EA doesn't feel many people would take advantage of such a plethora of options to justify the cost.
    Anyway, I subbed your page and will learn from ur videos. Thank you for posting a link.
    4thQtrStre5S
    Okay. But are you telling your players stuff because they do not know, or because you are reminding them what to look for and how to react? Sounds like in 2K the user has to manually tell the players how to do something, outside base AI logic, because they will not respond according to ratings alone, as opposed to reminding players.
    I think from a game perspective, it should be fun. I do not know if you would be hard on a game, especially if you understand that it is just a game.

    I’m telling my players what I see and making an adjustment throughout a game as things change. For example we have a set way in scouting a team in how we want to play them by sagging off this player, he’s a shooter stay attached, hedge ball screens, any big to big exchanges we will switch, guards exchanges don’t switch as we have a undersized pg we don’t want getting stuck in a mismatch on the block against their big guard. We want to have help defense from the weakside at the stop line. Well In a game that changes obviously. The player who can’t shoot and we were sagging off of in our original gameplan just hit 3 3’s in a row. Player looks at me saying what do you want? Timeout... we adjust... lol same thing with 100 more scenarios. My 20 years of coaching and 18 of playing is far more knowledge then my 21 year old players.
    As far as if I’m hard or not on a game I want a simulation game and everything I’d see in a real game. I don’t want arcade 360 catches by wr I saw in a video today or the sounds the rb’s make every step they make. I constantly post wishlists, critiques of 2k and things they can improve on. Shoot, this last year the 2k roster guy (beds) took all my tendency ratings and applied it to the main roster. Funny thing is 2k has 5-6 OS guys on staff. Me and 23 were going back in forth earlier this year about things and he was working with 2k on some things. I’m critical of 2k and madden as I love both sports...
    The "excuse" for CFM is that EA doesn't believe the sort of additions and changes advocated here will effect the bottom line enough to make it worth the time and expense, LDO. I don't contend that most of the features people ask for would be difficult to implement, they just won't increase the profitability of the game. If the people working at Tiburon, who's livelihood literally depends on how well Madden sells, thought they could get rid of another 500k units (to reach par with NBA2K) by beefing up franchise mode they would've done it a LOOOOOOOOOONG time ago.
    The one feature I do believe would be difficult to implement in CFM is a balanced player progression system. I'm very hopeful that the archetype system when used in conjunction with custom draft classes (to ensure a good distribution of archetype and ability in the draft) will be able to limit the snowballing.
    Right now the only limits in place are diminishing returns to XP which don't kick in until your player is already good enough that it doesn't much matter. If the draft is balanced enough that the player is put in the position of having to pick players (due to their superior starting ability) which they can't easily develop (wrong archetype) then we'll have ourselves a game.
    What I don't expect is the AI to be good at any of this. The AI always has, and probably always will be, a pushover. This will probably remain true even once technology advances to the point that competent AI could run on a gaming console. Making the game too challenging, out of the box, would negatively effect sales. The best you'll ever get is the ability to customize to your liking.
    If you want a challenge play against other humans. If you choose to play single player you know what you're getting (it's been the same for 30 years!) so don't act surprised or angered because you should've known better.
    vannwolfhawk
    I’m telling my players what I see and making an adjustment throughout a game as things change. For example we have a set way in scouting a team in how we want to play them by sagging off this player, he’s a shooter stay attached, hedge ball screens, any big to big exchanges we will switch, guards exchanges don’t switch as we have a undersized pg we don’t want getting stuck in a mismatch on the block against their big guard. We want to have help defense from the weakside at the stop line. Well In a game that changes obviously. The player who can’t shoot and we were sagging off of in our original gameplan just hit 3 3’s in a row. Player looks at me saying what do you want? Timeout... we adjust... lol same thing with 100 more scenarios. My 20 years of coaching and 18 of playing is far more knowledge then my 21 year old players.
    As far as if I’m hard or not on a game I want a simulation game and everything I’d see in a real game. I don’t want arcade 360 catches by wr I saw in a video today or the sounds the rb’s make every step they make. I constantly post wishlists, critiques of 2k and things they can improve on. Shoot, this last year the 2k roster guy (beds) took all my tendency ratings and applied it to the main roster. Funny thing is 2k has 5-6 OS guys on staff. Me and 23 were going back in forth earlier this year about things and he was working with 2k on some things. I’m critical of 2k and madden as I love both sports...

    I have a quick question if you have time. In your video, NBA2K18 High/Low Offense, at the 4:14 mark, there are 4 options available which are shown on the right side of the screen. Are those pre-set plays? Are they custom plays ?
    They are listed as:
    (A) Fist 15 Quick
    (X) Fist 12 Slip
    (Y) Quick Horns Swing 52
    (LB) Fist 5 out
    stinkubus
    The "excuse" for CFM is that EA doesn't believe the sort of additions and changes advocated here will effect the bottom line enough to make it worth the time and expense, LDO. I don't contend that most of the features people ask for would be difficult to implement, they just won't increase the profitability of the game. If the people working at Tiburon, who's livelihood literally depends on how well Madden sells, thought they could get rid of another 500k units (to reach par with NBA2K) by beefing up franchise mode they would've done it a LOOOOOOOOOONG time ago.

    It seems to work for NBA 2K. They have a sizeable franchise mode and the game sales are increasing every year. I think it just comes down to the talent and the people making the decisions overseeing that talent.
    Seems to me EA is all about how can we get sales now, instead of building and having prolonged success over years to come. That's exactly what got NBA Live in the hole it's in now. Madden can afford to do what it wants, when it wants because they have no direct competitor.
    SageInfinite
    It seems to work for NBA 2K. They have a sizeable franchise mode and the game sales are increasing every year. I think it just comes down to the talent and the people making the decisions overseeing that talent.
    Seems to me EA is all about how can we get sales now, instead of building and having prolonged success over years to come. That's exactly what got NBA Live in the hole it's in now. Madden can afford to do what it wants, when it wants because they have no direct competitor.

    I would lean towards the position that executives are more focused on short-term numbers than long term (not saying they are not having long-term success). I feel they may be a little too top-down focused which is an economic-based strategy. I assume they have some degree of bottom-up input but probably limited in regards to involvement which may explain the apparent reluctance to focus on CFM over MUT in recent Madden releases.
    MAdden for example, is a short cycle, so a lot of bottom-up input can be difficult to work through for short-term changes.
    Longshot is a very nice story-mode, but was very lacking. It supposedly generated some additional revenue, but I am not sure what will be done to hold on to any consumers which may have purchased M18 based on the Longshot marketing.
    4thQtrStre5S
    I have a quick question if you have time. In your video, NBA2K18 High/Low Offense, at the 4:14 mark, there are 4 options available which are shown on the right side of the screen. Are those pre-set plays? Are they custom plays ?
    They are listed as:
    (A) Fist 15 Quick
    (X) Fist 12 Slip
    (Y) Quick Horns Swing 52
    (LB) Fist 5 out

    Feel free to PM me anytime with 2k questions. This thread already sidetracked enough. Lol
    Short answer I did all teams real playbooks from synergy. It’s the link in my signature below. If you are really wanting depth with plays check this thread out... https://forums.operationsports.com/forums/nba-2k-basketball-rosters/917653-nba-2k18-real-synergy-scouted-team-specific-playbooks-complete.html
    I’m big into X’s & O’s! Those are all team plays. Each player gets 4 play types assigned to them if you choose (more depth). Each team has 50 play slots and a player can have up to 32 plays called for them. Those plays were the pnr plays for Kyrie Irving. So as I called the play for him I chose the play I wanted as I was coming up the floor. He has 7-8 pages of plays for him, 4 plays per page...
    23

    ....A fully customizable franchise with injuries tied to the leagues entire history, logo editor and the ability to play it as a GM only is something I dont think Madden has ever had.
    In fact Lakers24 posted his entire wishlist in one thread which ended up being probably the most liked thread in this forums history, and 2k put almost everything from his list in the game in a year's time.
    https://forums.operationsports.com/forums/nba-2k-basketball/755798-next-step-immersion-me.html
    Im sure we all want these games to improve in some aspect, but you seem to dismiss everything people say in here all of the time, while the series continues to go lacking.
    I roll with the consumer first.

    vannwolfhawk
    I digress, you are right “it’s just too hard” because there are 11 or 22 people to account for. SMH what’s the excuse for cfm?

    Didn't want this highlighted stuff getting lost in the melee, especially in this thread where Ben has taken over Franchise mode. For me the 5v5 vs 11v11 excuse is moot anyway when past football games, even past Maddens, have offered better/NFL emulating game play aspects than Madden has currently and when this exact same company, EA Tib, struggles with even 5v5 game play in NBA Live, to the point where its' been canceled before.
    That same excuse is completely irrelevant to why Madden Franchise mode, in the title that invented the Franchise mode, is so lacking in authenticity compared to other top sport's comparable modes and team management depth. NBA2k, The Show, OOTP, HC09, NFL2k5, Tecmo Super Bowl and Madden 2005 have aspects in their Franchise like modes that current Madden doesn't, 11v11 > 5v5 isn't an excuse for that, there's no excuse for that.
    SageInfinite
    Honestly as time goes on, and people post more and more, I'm starting to believe that point not to be true. Some of the things I see people post in response, or defense of Madden, leads me to believe they do not want the type of NFL game that I do.

    This right here speaks volumes Sage...We are a divided community on OS some of us old school cats have been hearing the same rhetoric from EA for 20 years or longer...
    It's really time to just keep it real and acknowledged if EA could they would but they can't and they aint...That's the bottom line point blank period...
    It's just time to move on from EA football!
    tyberious4now
    This right here speaks volumes Sage...We are a divided community on OS some of us old school cats have been hearing the same rhetoric from EA for 20 years or longer...
    It's really time to just keep it real and acknowledged if EA could they would but they can't and they aint...That's the bottom line point blank period...
    It's just time to move on from EA football!

    I think the real issue is that when many of us started playing video game football there were many options, nfl2k, madden, ncaa, nfl blitz, nfl street, nfl gameday, that one by microsoft that i never played, nfl qb club. Point is each of those games had things that people liked and it fit what they were looking for in a game.
    There will never be a time that madden will fit all of those criteria for us.
    tyberious4now
    This right here speaks volumes Sage...We are a divided community on OS some of us old school cats have been hearing the same rhetoric from EA for 20 years or longer...
    It's really time to just keep it real and acknowledged if EA could they would but they can't and they aint...That's the bottom line point blank period...
    It's just time to move on from EA football!

    Hopefully when you move on you are stronger than I am. I haven't played a Madden since 16. I play 2k5, 2k8, and NCAA 14 when I want my fix in. Now that they are moving to PC I am really leaning towards buying the game again. I still see there are a lot of issues that make EA who they are. It's clear that simulation football isn't what they truly want no matter what they say or what crumbs they give us here at OS.
    I wish I could just go on forever not buying another Madden until they changed their ways, but I love football too much and to be honest, 2k5 is finally starting to show too much of its age for me. It only took til 2018, but I am just now getting to the point where I am honestly wanting to play Madden over it, but mostly because of 2k5's age and Madden being new and modern.
    2k5 had its share of issues, there were big time issues with the secondary becoming clueless once a ball was in the air, but I was always able to put up with it. Not anymore. I don't know why, but I have hit a wall with it and I want a new football game. Unfortunately for me my only choice is Madden to fit my NFL wants.
    What I am going to do this year, which is what I've been doing with my backlog of games I've been tearing through, is focusing on what the game does well and tuning it as much as the options let me to get it to play how I envision it. It is what I did with 2k5. Maybe I have been too harsh on Madden because I was such a 2k5 fan, or maybe I was right in my criticism. It does seem there is a lot of negativity among the Madden consumer base, but then again all video game forums these days are filled with negativity and toxic posts. The appreciated things tend to stick in one or two thread like The Little Things threads or the Impressions threads while all the issues get their own threads and sometimes multiple threads.
    I'll try out Madden 19 on the PC. Hopefully I am able to enjoy what is good about it and have enough fun to get my fix in without shelving it out of frustration. It'll be the first time in a decade plus that I have been able to do that with the series.
    Big FN Deal
    For me the 5v5 vs 11v11 excuse is moot anyway when past football games, even past Maddens, have offered better/NFL emulating game play aspects than Madden has currently.

    Which past Madden had better game play than 18? No matter which one you name I guarantee you I'm going to be able to find videos on YouTube which are going to show they were absolutely broken. Whether or not you chose to take advantage of those tactics is moot, but they certainly existed.
    The three most recent editions I played the most had the following game breaking glitches.
    M11: you could trigger the "fall forward" animation when your RB got tackled almost 100% of the time, so it was almost impossible to stop a simple run game. If I wanted to I could've done nothing but run Strong Close dive and toss all game and there's nothing you or the LOLAI could do about it.
    M12: There wasn't a single defensive assignment in the game which would make an AI player defend a simple TE streak. They had to be user guarded and the timing was incredibly difficult to pull off. If you did manage to cover the TE you could just throw a WR streak because it's probably open or could be user caught.
    M25: There was absolutely no defense in this game.
    If you're going to try to tell me that PS2 era Madden was better then I'm going to take this opportunity to remind you that Randy Moss was the best DT in the league for most of those games, and Brian Finneran was the most dominant WR who ever lived.
    stinkubus
    The "excuse" for CFM is that EA doesn't believe the sort of additions and changes advocated here will effect the bottom line enough to make it worth the time and expense, LDO. I don't contend that most of the features people ask for would be difficult to implement, they just won't increase the profitability of the game. If the people working at Tiburon, who's livelihood literally depends on how well Madden sells, thought they could get rid of another 500k units (to reach par with NBA2K) by beefing up franchise mode they would've done it a LOOOOOOOOOONG time ago.
    The one feature I do believe would be difficult to implement in CFM is a balanced player progression system. I'm very hopeful that the archetype system when used in conjunction with custom draft classes (to ensure a good distribution of archetype and ability in the draft) will be able to limit the snowballing.
    Right now the only limits in place are diminishing returns to XP which don't kick in until your player is already good enough that it doesn't much matter. If the draft is balanced enough that the player is put in the position of having to pick players (due to their superior starting ability) which they can't easily develop (wrong archetype) then we'll have ourselves a game.
    What I don't expect is the AI to be good at any of this. The AI always has, and probably always will be, a pushover. This will probably remain true even once technology advances to the point that competent AI could run on a gaming console. Making the game too challenging, out of the box, would negatively effect sales. The best you'll ever get is the ability to customize to your liking.
    If you want a challenge play against other humans. If you choose to play single player you know what you're getting (it's been the same for 30 years!) so don't act surprised or angered because you should've known better.
    First of all, nobody cares about the bottom line. Not a single one of us.
    Second of all, people really need to stop using this argument. There's plenty of examples of consumers rewarding depth and complexity in sports games. It's an old, exhausting, innacurate argument.
    Third, even if it weren't profitable, other competent development teams have managed to please multiple playerbase through the use of customization and efficient use of development time over years.
    Lastly, placing the blame on consumers for purchasing a monopolized, heavily flawed, product is practically the devils work. They bought the exclusive license. They make the game. They make the promises, the slogans, etc. They're the ones being completely outclassed by their peers. They're the ones asking for 65 dollars a year of my very hard earned money. The relationship between corporation and consumer is increasingly problematic, and you should seriously take a second to think about why your comfortable blaming those who simply want the enjoy their product at a level comparable to other products they spend roughly 65 dollars on. Especially on a website designed partly for those purposes.
    A company essentially hijacked a pastime that millions of people enjoy, heavily diluted the product, and now you're trying to blame the consumers, simply for trying to maintain and save that hobby.
    I'll let you guys get back to fighting the good fight, but I just couldn't let this one pass.
    Sent from my SM-G960U using Operation Sports mobile app
    stinkubus
    The "excuse" for CFM is that EA doesn't believe the sort of additions and changes advocated here will effect the bottom line enough to make it worth the time and expense, LDO. I don't contend that most of the features people ask for would be difficult to implement, they just won't increase the profitability of the game. If the people working at Tiburon, who's livelihood literally depends on how well Madden sells, thought they could get rid of another 500k units (to reach par with NBA2K) by beefing up franchise mode they would've done it a LOOOOOOOOOONG time ago.....

    I did a quick Google search for confirmation and found this:
    https://kotaku.com/5800955/madden-nfl-12s-franchise-gets-its-upgrades---by-popular-demand
    "It's crazy how many people play Franchise," said Looman; internal figures peg the user base of the multi-season campaign mode at 90 percent of those who play the game.
    And EA even requesting "the sort of additions and changes advocated here.."
    https://forums.operationsports.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2042325547&postcount=1
    That just what I was able to find quickly and I also recall them reiterating something along those lines after CCM/CFM was done, so the notion that Franchise mode doesn't move units and what OSers value in this type mode is moot, seems contrary to at least what EA Tib claims. Also the fact that they do work on and invest in the mode, albeit not with a NFL authenticity implication like I'd like to see, flies in the face of the bold.
    To put it another way, Madden has a version of Franchise mode, like other sports game have, EA Tib generally implements stuff into Madden's Franchise mode, like other games do to theirs and EA markets authenticity in Madden, like other games do but when it comes to providing authenticity, those other game's modes far exceed what's in Madden. Again, there is no excuse for that.
    Big FN Deal
    I did a quick Google search for confirmation and found this:
    https://kotaku.com/5800955/madden-nfl-12s-franchise-gets-its-upgrades---by-popular-demand
    "It's crazy how many people play Franchise," said Looman; internal figures peg the user base of the multi-season campaign mode at 90 percent of those who play the game.
    And EA even requesting "the sort of additions and changes advocated here.."
    https://forums.operationsports.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2042325547&postcount=1
    That just what I was able to find quickly and I also recall them reiterating something along those lines after CCM/CFM was done, so the notion that Franchise mode doesn't move units and what OSers value in this type mode is moot, seems contrary to at least what EA Tib claims. Also the fact that they do work on and invest in the mode, albeit not with a NFL authenticity implication like I'd like to see, flies in the face of the bold.
    To put it another way, Madden has a version of Franchise mode, like other sports game have, EA Tib generally implements stuff into Madden's Franchise mode, like other games do to theirs and EA markets authenticity in Madden, like other games do but when it comes to providing authenticity, those other game's modes far exceed what's in Madden. Again, there is no excuse for that.

    I’m just posting your post to piggyback a bit... I buy madden every year for my football fix and because there is no other options. Like I said before I’ve played every one since 88, so I guess I’m a creature of habit and feel like it’s something I have to have and try out every year. Rarely if ever am I playing that game in November or December though as it loses me after a month or 2. That’s it though, it’s not because it’s a great in depth game. My point is that I’m sure there are thousands of people like me that buy the game out of habit and because it’s all we got. If all of us who were tired of the lack of progression took a few years off those would be huge losses, but because of exclusivity and jonesing for a football fix it won’t ever happen. At least it won’t for me because I clearly have a problem! So the numbers posted in a earlier post are skewed imo. Madden thinks oh numbers look great and we are where we should be or want to be. Ya, but if they sent polls out To all who bought it and truly collected all their thoughts and opinions I’d think we would have a 50/50 split of people dissatisfied...
    The numbers saying 90% play cfm and the lack of depth or effort put in it year after year is dare I say it again in here “insulting”! So, the most used portion of their game by the people who buy the game every year go’s untouched and that’s not a slap on the face?! I will say I do like Ben and loved the last college football game! Shoot there are things in that game that should have but still havnt made it over. But I’m glad Ben is here and heading this up. Give him a little rope EA and I think we could be in good hands. Problem is ultimately the suits and the limited vision through a cone.
    I’m a believer like field of dreams that “if you build it they will come”. 2k’s depth in all areas of their game as well as their marketing (I’m not a huge fan of but can’t argue results), 2k e-league, social media, 2k interactive tv, real freelance offenses, my league depth, etc... if madden did this no doubt in my mind they would see a HUGE spike in sales! 2k has built on this every year. They have built their reputation. Madden has built one as well but in a different direction. 2k’s past has earned my trust with their development team. Like someone posted earlier madden has such high turnover where 2k does not. Why is that? That has clearly hurt this franchise or at least not helped it any...
    Like you said BIG there is no excuse... it’s time to step up their game!
    stinkubus
    Which past Madden had better game play than 18? No matter which one you name I guarantee you I'm going to be able to find videos on YouTube which are going to show they were absolutely broken. ...
    If you're going to try to tell me that PS2 era Madden was better then I'm going to take this opportunity to remind you that Randy Moss was the best DT in the league for most of those games, and Brian Finneran was the most dominant WR who ever lived.

    So out of all that you choose to cherry pick the part about past Maddens and misquote it too because I said better game play aspects, smh but ok.
    I'm not going to bother listing exactly what Madden year this stuff was in, feel free to do your own Google-fu but this is all game play stuff from PS2 era Maddens. Route based passing, AI based option routes, more fluid running animations, 1st/2nd/3rd string subs, complete formation subs and defensive assignments. Those game play elements off the top of my head, from a gamer that preferred other football games like Joe Montana Sports Talk, 2k football, over past Maddens, not to mention an appreciation for elements in games like Tecmo Football, NFL GameDay and NFL Fever.
    EDIT: Dynamic weather and weather impacting game play.
    Tired of these bum ass madden producers catering to these “competitive” players.   It’s funny to Me because the players they cater to aren’t competitive at all.    These lames abuse and exploit the game.   Year after  year EA leaves that fake ass nano blitz In the game , and for what?...  To cater to these lames.  EA needs to grow sone balls and make a real fucking NFL football game for us real nfl fans. 
    Woo3800
    Tired of these bum *** madden producers catering to these “competitive” players. * It’s funny to Me because the players they cater to aren’t competitive at all. * *These lames abuse and exploit the game. * Year after *year EA leaves that fake *** nano blitz In the game , and for what?... *To cater to these lames. *EA needs to grow sone balls and make a real ****ing NFL football game for us real nfl fans.*

    Lol! Don’t hold back! Tell us how you really feel!
    I really enjoyed reading this thread, it is fiesty, reflective, altruistic, matter of fact, and ...
    I will say this again. You can have all the cutting edge tech in the world, but if you don't have the talent, it don't mean anything.
    Case in point the guys at ubisoft are praising naughty dog for using a tech they created "motion matching" that they introduced in "For Honor" eventhough they created the tech when they saw what naughty dog did in the E3 gameplay trailer they praised them on expanding the vision.
    23
    What mechanics?
    2K has
    Pro-Am
    The Park - with a sandbox neighborhood
    and a separate version tied to their E-League where players are getting salaries, free housing, benefits medical, dental, etc paid for by actual NBA teams
    and you're going to tell me that its a flop because you read it on pastapadre.com?

    Core gameplay mechanics, as in on the field in an online head-to-head setting.
    Say what you will about offensive line play, online franchise's missing features, or whatever else, Madden 18 is an incredibly balanced online head-to-head game, the servers are reliable, lag is a non-issue, etc. In my experience, Tiburon has that part of the game down pat.
    With respect to "flop", PastaPadre posted that the viewership numbers were already in the tubes. To the extent that we are talking about the reach of NBA 2K as an e-sport, who cares how good the modes are if no one is watching? I hope they turn it around, but they've certainly got work to do.
    vannwolfhawk
    Anyways, you not having 2k18 makes sense now in not understanding the difference in what 2 companies can do or are capable of.

    I keep up with their games. I keep up with the video game industry at-large given that it's my professional experience, I know full well what they're up to.
    You say nothing they have done has peaked your interest? What modes do you play and what would peak your interest in 2k? What do they NOT have that you do want and that would make you buy it? I will say you for sure missed out on the best playing CPU AI in a b-ball game ever IMO...

    My primary mode of play in sports games is online franchise with my friends. Last I heard, MyLeague online doesn't even have a salary cap or offseason free agency. Moreover and more importantly, none of my friends play NBA 2K. To that end, 2K could literally put the sentient brains of Red Auerbach, Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, and Gregg Popovich on the disk and it doesn't fix the fact that I don't want to play a sports game by myself and I don't want to subject myself to a bare-bones online franchise mode.
    CM Hooe
    Core gameplay mechanics, as in on the field in an online head-to-head setting.
    Say what you will about offensive line play, online franchise's missing features, or whatever else, Madden 18 is an incredibly balanced online head-to-head game, the servers are reliable, lag is a non-issue, etc. In my experience, Tiburon has that part of the game down pat.
    With respect to "flop", PastaPadre posted that the viewership numbers were already in the tubes. To the extent that we are talking about the reach of NBA 2K as an e-sport, who cares how good the modes are if no one is watching? I hope they turn it around, but they've certainly got work to do.

    Man you're actually in here talking about servers and not the game itself? SMH.. okay then Im not even sure how that matters when you pretty much dismissed the lack of actual things that matter to a well rounded game as some kind of minor quip....
    Just as you talk about stability in head to head, it shows the lack of attention to any other part of their game. It always blows my mind that people are cool with EA working on one or two things a year while others are throwing the kitchen sink out there.
    To the other point, You're going off of a pasta padre article for a league that is actually paying people, and just got started, and hasn't even completed a first season yet, and is still in the feel out stages as a flop?
    It's kinda silly to tout "reach" and "turnaround" when it just started its first games literally a month ago.
    I suggest you pay way more attention to what's going on because if that's where you're getting your information from you've missed almost the entire ordeal.
    It seems like you talk about 2k off of what you heard instead of knowing it yourself, but then you make claims that you follow the industry because it's your job.
    You're contradicting the crap out of yourself commenting on things you don't have a clue about.
    Apparently, their numbers show A LOT of people care about how good their modes are because they're the ones who buy all of those preorders that smoke Madden in September NPD's sales and from that point forward stay ahead.
    23
    Man you're actually in here talking about servers and not the game itself?

    I'm pretty sure I said "Madden 18 is an incredibly balanced online head-to-head game" as part of my opinion.
    CM Hooe
    I'm pretty sure I said "Madden 18 is an incredibly balanced online head-to-head game" as part of my opinion.

    You also said gameplay and franchise features aside as if it didn't matter.
    It's insane that you just dismiss that stuff and go on posting poor facts about a game you know little to nothing about at the same time.
    Like I said, 2k is a fully developed game with time put in for modes for everyone. That's why the game has grown so huge and why they maintain that audience without needing an exclusive. It's a consistently great all-around game.
    Watch a few e league games and they have a head to head build that works just as well as you claim madden does.
    I'm not even sure what the point was because this is not helping grow, which is why they keep making claims of going after younger casuals.
    A good head to head is markedly stiffed by below standard AI which is a shame.
    Big FN Deal
    So out of all that you choose to cherry pick the part about past Maddens and misquote it too because I said better game play aspects, smh but ok.
    I'm not going to bother listing exactly what Madden year this stuff was in, feel free to do your own Google-fu but this is all game play stuff from PS2 era Maddens. Route based passing, AI based option routes, more fluid running animations, 1st/2nd/3rd string subs, complete formation subs and defensive assignments. Those game play elements off the top of my head, from a gamer that preferred other football games like Joe Montana Sports Talk, 2k football, over past Maddens, not to mention an appreciation for elements in games like Tecmo Football, NFL GameDay and NFL Fever.
    EDIT: Dynamic weather and weather impacting game play.

    You've got to be kidding me with the Joe Montana Sports Talk being a good game. You could literally take every hand off in the opposite direction of the play design and score a TD every time because the entire defense would flow to the ball.
    NBA 2k18 was the 2nd best selling game of 2017
    https://venturebeat.com/2018/01/18/npd-2017-the-10-best-selling-games-of-the-year/
    The game clearly has mass appeal. An NBA game that came out in September at number 2! Not only does it have mass appeal (casuals), but it is also deep enough to satisfy hardcore "sim" heads as well as franchise types like myself and any and everything in between. My Park and Pro Am and My Team are the most popular modes, as is the industry standard, still there's something for everyone. I firmly believe that's why an NBA is doing unprecedented numbers.
    I hate how people talk like these things are mutually exclusive. They are not, you can do both and still be a commercial smash. I'm not stupid enough to believe that having a sandbox MyLeague is the reason. But it doesn't hurt. Neither does having a story driven MyGM. It doesn't hurt, though. Having Czar and Scot OG designing the offense and defense, respectively isn't the reason. It doesn't hurt though. Then having Sam Pham "exploit" on aspect or the other and having them catch up. It only adds to the end product at the end of the day.
    Madden is 4th, so its not struggling. Their model is successful as well. That's why I see very little reason for them to change things up. You can see from 2Ks basketball comp that the companies are just different philosophically. They tout "engines" and tech like infinity and ignite ( and living worlds), I remember "bounce-tek" for one of the Lives, and now Frostbite. It's not innovative. Madden is a good enough game even without innovating much yearly to stand on its own. NFL is king. The other game can't, so it died and is still struggling because of the snails pace they innovate.
    Junior Moe
    NBA 2k18 was the 2nd best selling game of 2017
    https://venturebeat.com/2018/01/18/npd-2017-the-10-best-selling-games-of-the-year/
    The game clearly has mass appeal. An NBA game that came out in September at number 2! Not only does it have mass appeal (casuals), but it is also deep enough to satisfy hardcore "sim" heads as well as franchise types like myself and any and everything in between. My Park and Pro Am and My Team are the most popular modes, as is the industry standard, still there's something for everyone. I firmly believe that's why an NBA is doing unprecedented numbers.
    I hate how people talk like these things are mutually exclusive. They are not, you can do both and still be a commercial smash. I'm not stupid enough to believe that having a sandbox MyLeague is the reason. But it doesn't hurt. Neither does having a story driven MyGM. It doesn't hurt, though. Having Czar and Scot OG designing the offense and defense, respectively isn't the reason. It doesn't hurt though. Then having Sam Pham "exploit" on aspect or the other and having them catch up. It only adds to the end product at the end of the day.
    Madden is 4th, so its not struggling. Their model is successful as well. That's why I see very little reason for them to change things up. You can see from 2Ks basketball comp that the companies are just different philosophically. They tout "engines" and tech like infinity and ignite ( and living worlds), I remember "bounce-tek" for one of the Lives, and now Frostbite. It's not innovative. Madden is a good enough game even without innovating much yearly to stand on its own. NFL is king. The other game can't, so it died and is still struggling because of the snails pace they innovate.

    Yep, I agree with this, I mentioned the different philosophies several pages back, one company is aggressive and one company is conservative.
    Historically speaking, I don't see that process changing anytime soon.
    My primary mode of play in sports games is online franchise with my friends. Last I heard, MyLeague online doesn't even have a salary cap or offseason free agency. Moreover and more importantly, none of my friends play NBA 2K. To that end, 2K could literally put the sentient brains of Red Auerbach, Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, and Gregg Popovich on the disk and it doesn't fix the fact that I don't want to play a sports game by myself and I don't want to subject myself to a bare-bones online franchise mode.

    Every time a discussion comes up about what's severely lacking in Madden, this argument is made about servers and online play. What about the actual sport the game is supposed to represent? This point has had to be brought forward so many times, but it still doesn't seem to penetrate... Sageinfinite made a thread last year that asked what Madden does exceptionally well. You had to dig through the thread to find something that was actually related to football.
    I get it that you want to play online franchise. So do I, that is all I exclusively play, we've had a league with the same guys for nearly 10 years (even before online franchise was in the game). I do not ever play the computer in Madden. The bottom line is this, just because I can play online with my friends doesn't automatically make it a good deep game. Mutant League Football could have online franchise, but I'm not going to be interested in it, because the football isn't realistic. There are many people who do not play online franchise. WAY more people prefer to play offline franchise than online. A lot more people would play the single player offline if it was remotely playable. The AI is so basic and horrendous in Madden it makes it unplayable. There is a difference between wanting to play online and HAVING to play online because you can't enjoy the game any other way. The lacking pieces in Madden do a lot of damage to online franchise players as well. You literally have to try to have fun despite the shortcomings of the game. While Madden devs are still arguing about the wind meter and the difficulty of preventing players from going through the walls after TDs, other developers are adding deeper levels of immersion to their games while providing the settings and options to cater to less skilled players. More and more people would undoubtedly play offline franchise (most of them really want to anyway) if the mode was half as deep and immersive as an NBA 2k My League, and they'd probably be more willing to try MUT to boot. I know I would.
    Instead, Madden is the Fisher Price version of sports sims. Everything is simple, basic and stripped down followed by a litany of excuses as to how difficult it is or why it can't be done. All games are difficult to build, I don't care if it's a pac-man reboot, it's not easy at all. That is a given. However, the Madden team is more than capable of doing a far better job of emulating the sport of football on and off the field than they have been doing since 2004. The consumer should not have to bear the burden of their mistakes (madden rewrite of 2006, for example).
    tyberious4now
    This right here speaks volumes Sage...We are a divided community on OS some of us old school cats have been hearing the same rhetoric from EA for 20 years or longer...
    It's really time to just keep it real and acknowledged if EA could they would but they can't and they aint...That's the bottom line point blank period...
    It's just time to move on from EA football!
    This is interesting; especially the last part. I've been coming here for over a decade and and during that time games like Live and The Show have dropped from my gaming catalog for various reasons. I don't care for those games anymore and typically don't visit those sections on the forums either. Now, I know everyone isn't me and vice versa, but I find it comical the same handful of guys that are and have been done with Madden and EA find there way back to this section around this time of the year. Every. Year.
    It's like the guy scrambling to pick up his phone when it rings after he's dumped thinking it's his ex. Maybe the game really isn't for you anymore for whatever reason?
    Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app
    I don't buy Madden anymore and won't pick up 19 but still come around because I feel like my ideas have a chance of being implemented and the more that get behind them, the better chance it is. It may be a .00001% chance but I know some EA guys check out those posts and I really want to play if they could fix it up. Can't speak for others though
    My .02 cents.
    Based on my past history, I noticed my ideas are heard quicker and more on Twitter by asking the Developers. On OS, it might take several years to get a response and a chance of it being implemented into the game.
    I am a firm believer of Twitter and the instant response you may or may not receive. My response rate has been about 50/50.
    Maybe some people are blocked on Twitter or don't want to set up an account, I don't know, but then, yeah, OS would be the place to get your voice heard.
    stinkubus
    You've got to be kidding me with the Joe Montana Sports Talk being a good game. You could literally take every hand off in the opposite direction of the play design and score a TD every time because the entire defense would flow to the ball.

    Now you're just deflecting and not even that well imo. Went from my post mainly about 11v11>5v5 or not, being no excuse for Franchise mode in Madden being what it is, to now about JMF Sports talk game play flaws, LMAO.
    roadman
    My .02 cents.
    Based on my past history, I noticed my ideas are heard quicker and more on Twitter by asking the Developers. On OS, it might take several years to get a response and a chance of it being implemented into the game.
    I am a firm believer of Twitter and the instant response you may or may not receive. My response rate has been about 50/50.
    Maybe some people are blocked on Twitter, I don't know, but then, yeah, OS would be the place to get your voice heard.
    Yeah Twitter is a great place for feedback. I use it more now since I've started streaming seriously and it's a big help in that regard. But when you go on Twitter to talk to a dev PLEASE for the love of god be respectful and give critical feedback/advice without bashing the game or developer. I shouldn't have to explain what I mean by that. These are people with feelings too so just put your thoughts out in a respective manner. You're more likely to get a response that way but again, not a guarantee.
    Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk
    roadman
    Yep, I agree with this, I mentioned the different philosophies several pages back, one company is aggressive and one company is conservative.
    Historically speaking, I don't see that process changing anytime soon.

    Junior Moe
    NBA 2k18 was the 2nd best selling game of 2017
    https://venturebeat.com/2018/01/18/npd-2017-the-10-best-selling-games-of-the-year/
    The game clearly has mass appeal. An NBA game that came out in September at number 2! Not only does it have mass appeal (casuals), but it is also deep enough to satisfy hardcore "sim" heads as well as franchise types like myself and any and everything in between. My Park and Pro Am and My Team are the most popular modes, as is the industry standard, still there's something for everyone. I firmly believe that's why an NBA is doing unprecedented numbers.
    I hate how people talk like these things are mutually exclusive. They are not, you can do both and still be a commercial smash. I'm not stupid enough to believe that having a sandbox MyLeague is the reason. But it doesn't hurt. Neither does having a story driven MyGM. It doesn't hurt, though. Having Czar and Scot OG designing the offense and defense, respectively isn't the reason. It doesn't hurt though. Then having Sam Pham "exploit" on aspect or the other and having them catch up. It only adds to the end product at the end of the day.
    Madden is 4th, so its not struggling. Their model is successful as well. That's why I see very little reason for them to change things up. You can see from 2Ks basketball comp that the companies are just different philosophically. They tout "engines" and tech like infinity and ignite ( and living worlds), I remember "bounce-tek" for one of the Lives, and now Frostbite. It's not innovative. Madden is a good enough game even without innovating much yearly to stand on its own. NFL is king. The other game can't, so it died and is still struggling because of the snails pace they innovate.

    I guess the argument is "Look at everything that 2K does or did 15 years ago, Madden needs to get their **** together and follow suit" As you guys say EA has a completely different philosophical approach so that isn't going to happen, now okay then what's the next discussion point. For some there isn't one, so round and round we go.
    TheShizNo1
    This is interesting; especially the last part. I've been coming here for over a decade and and during that time games like Live and The Show have dropped from my gaming catalog for various reasons. I don't care for those games anymore and typically don't visit those sections on the forums either. Now, I know everyone isn't me and vice versa, but I find it comical the same handful of guys that are and have been done with Madden and EA find there way back to this section around this time of the year. Every. Year.
    It's like the guy scrambling to pick up his phone when it rings after he's dumped thinking it's his ex. Maybe the game really isn't for you anymore for whatever reason?
    Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app

    At the the end of day it come down to the same arguments, love of football games, and the license exclusivity. So even those who have abandoned the game will be sure to come in and get their pound of flesh. It is what it is.
    jfsolo
    I guess the argument is "Look at everything that 2K does or did 15 years ago, Madden needs to get their **** together and follow suit" As you guys say EA has a completely different philosophical approach so that isn't going to happen, now okay then what's the next discussion point. For some there isn't one, so round and round we go.

    Nah. Thats your weak tired deflecting argument. My post speaks for itself. It also illustrates why I don't expect Madden to change course. Which I'm fine with, BTW. I adjusted my expectations and time/money spent on Madden years ago. There is no next discussion point for me. Just giving my 2 cents.
    TheShizNo1
    This is interesting; especially the last part. I've been coming here for over a decade and and during that time games like Live and The Show have dropped from my gaming catalog for various reasons. I don't care for those games anymore and typically don't visit those sections on the forums either. Now, I know everyone isn't me and vice versa, but I find it comical the same handful of guys that are and have been done with Madden and EA find there way back to this section around this time of the year. Every. Year.
    It's like the guy scrambling to pick up his phone when it rings after he's dumped thinking it's his ex. Maybe the game really isn't for you anymore for whatever reason?
    Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app

    Most of what you said is true but I don't blame guys who want to spend their money on what they likeor dont. With that being said for me I look at the glass being half full. I love football period and have made sacrifices each year with Madden's mediocrity.
    We all hope that they get it together because we'll there is no other football gaming company. Buying Madden each doesn't mean you approve of everything in the game it could be as simple as getting your football fix..
    roadman
    My .02 cents.
    Based on my past history, I noticed my ideas are heard quicker and more on Twitter by asking the Developers. On OS, it might take several years to get a response and a chance of it being implemented into the game.
    I am a firm believer of Twitter and the instant response you may or may not receive. My response rate has been about 50/50.
    Maybe some people are blocked on Twitter or don't want to set up an account, I don't know, but then, yeah, OS would be the place to get your voice heard.

    I never really felt acknowledgement/ a response on Twitter but maybe it's because I only tweet about getting rid of XP lol
    I'd just like to see Madden have the same immersion as some of the other football games of the past. I'd love to see the score updates that were in NCAA, the highlights from NFL 2k5, it needs something. I just wish Tiburon were more aggressive with Madden. Hell I'd be happy if they brought back player of the game.
    There's just a lazy or careless approach to implementation with the Madden franchise. Not calling the devs lazy at all, I know those guys bust their *** for EA, but the way things are untouched, or left in the game, or just simply omitted, it gives me that impression. I just wish they attacked their game in a more aggressive fashion.
    TheShizNo1
    This is interesting; especially the last part. I've been coming here for over a decade and and during that time games like Live and The Show have dropped from my gaming catalog for various reasons. I don't care for those games anymore and typically don't visit those sections on the forums either. Now, I know everyone isn't me and vice versa, but I find it comical the same handful of guys that are and have been done with Madden and EA find there way back to this section around this time of the year. Every. Year.
    It's like the guy scrambling to pick up his phone when it rings after he's dumped thinking it's his ex. Maybe the game really isn't for you anymore for whatever reason?
    Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app

    This right here is so tired, the veiled notion of "if you don't like it don't play it, move on AND STFU ". This notion, like many others, is so old hat because at this point it's been countered repeatedly why people don't just STFU. That's besides the point that either what is being said about the game has merit or it doesn't. If it has merit and it's valid, no matter what it is, should be known, an informed consumer is a good thing. Notice I didn't single out just issues but anything that has merit about any game is valid. Just because with Madden the valid issues for sports emulation far outweigh the valid substance, ain't anybody's fault but EA Tib.
    Also it baffles me why some want to pretend to not understand that all this is just discussion for posters like me. No different than going on a forum about a myriad of topics that I don't expect to result in anything other than marking some time and maybe gleaning some new info.
    For me considering I play Madden very little at this point, to at least have some first hand experience with the product I discuss, my POV is the opposite of yours. Games I actually play extensively I don't end up discussing much if any because I enjoy them and would rather be playing than talking about them. I especially couldn't care less what valid issues other have with games I enjoy nor does that impact me in the least bit. To borrow your analogy, it's like a guy in a relationship with a female caring about what other guys think of her.
    With Madden, since I don't get enough enjoyment playing and there is no other current licensed football game to play, I get my "fix" from the discussion.
    SageInfinite
    I'd just like to see Madden have the same immersion as some of the other football games of the past. I'd love to see the score updates that were in NCAA, the highlights from NFL 2k5, it needs something. I just wish Tiburon were more aggressive with Madden. Hell I'd be happy if they brought back player of the game.
    There's just a lazy or careless approach to implementation with the Madden franchise. Not calling the devs lazy at all, I know those guys bust their *** for EA, but the way things are untouched, or left in the game, or just simply omitted, it gives me that impression. I just wish they attacked their game in a more aggressive fashion.

    I agree with all of this.
    And with over a decade on here, nothing has changed with their process of manufacturing the game.
    We, at OS, are not going to change that process based on the past decade.
    For example, some people wanted a franchise overhaul this year, and based on past history, I knew they would offer three or four improvements for this Madden. It's like clockwork.
    If you go back to the Carlos interview, it's similar to listening to a Rex interview when he climbed aboard. We are going to lay a foundation, get gameplay right, and build up from there.
    roadman
    I agree with all of this.
    And with over a decade on here, nothing has changed with their process of manufacturing the game.
    We, at OS, are not going to change that process based on the past decade.

    It's also frustrating when I hear guys that are supposed to represent us to an extent(game changers) say that things have changed. They still develop the game in pieces and I've heard guys say that's not true anymore.
    Just for an off topic example, the new qb animations are a WELCOME change for me, but then I see some of the same broken "walk up" animations in the footage, and the same awkward qb throwing animations. For once I'd like to see something TOTALLY addressed in one year. It just throws off the balance.
    I don't know if this is confirmed, but I heard that the half-time show was changed. Again I don't know, but I could see them just touching half time and leaving post game absolutely the same. Stuff like that just irks me.
    I also noticed how they change the QB introductions, again, a very welcome change for me, but why leave in that same cutscene where the wide receiver taps the QB on the top of the helmet? It's been the same for years.
    I just get tired of things not changing year after year.
    Some people might have the opinion that I don't enjoy Madden. I do. I like the game. I've played it more the past few years than I ever have(16,17,18), but I'm not gonna front or lie like it's a good game. It's not a good game to me, yet I still enjoy it.
    stinkubus

    If you're going to try to tell me that PS2 era Madden was better then I'm going to take this opportunity to remind you that Randy Moss was the best DT in the league for most of those games, and Brian Finneran was the most dominant WR who ever lived.

    "Randy moss the best DT in the league"?!?! Are you being sarcastic? If not how old are you?
    I ask because randy moss is a hall of famer and might be the most physically gifted WR to play the game so I am confused. Might have been before your era
    Therebelyell626
    "Randy moss the best DT in the league"?!?! Are you being sarcastic? If not how old are you?
    I ask because randy moss is a hall of famer and might be the most physically gifted WR to play the game so I am confused. Might have been before your era

    I think he was making the point that you could place players in any position and they'd perform exceptionally in the game? IDK, that's how it came off to me, lol.
    SageInfinite
    I'd just like to see Madden have the same immersion as some of the other football games of the past. I'd love to see the score updates that were in NCAA, the highlights from NFL 2k5, it needs something. I just wish Tiburon were more aggressive with Madden. Hell I'd be happy if they brought back player of the game.
    There's just a lazy or careless approach to implementation with the Madden franchise. Not calling the devs lazy at all, I know those guys bust their *** for EA, but the way things are untouched, or left in the game, or just simply omitted, it gives me that impression. I just wish they attacked their game in a more aggressive fashion.

    This is the one thing i think often gets lost or misconstrued when someone points out clear issues with how they develop the game from year to year, issues that are still there , things that are missing etc.
    For some reason many think you are attacking the devs .Saying they do nothing . When in reality , i believe most of us who have issues with just "accepting" these things as ok , really take a huge issue with EA because these issues continue to keep going on. Most of us realize, this company is raking in literally 100s of MILLIONS per year just off Madden.We have consoles that are more than twice as powerful as 2004-6 era. Yet with all that money and more powerful systems ...... EA fails to deliver. Not because they can't but simply because they choose , as a company( at the higher levels) , not too.
    That is some of the main reason so many are so ticked off with them. Not the devs. Im sure they , like most people who work anymore anywhere , are overworked and under paid for what they are doing. Because that is a common business model now in days, to turn more profit faster for the company( i should know i learned all about it in business college 2 decades ago). The company has more than enough funds to improve this game more than they do, but instead they just trickle things out. That is the real issue that many have , but always gets turned back on us , like we are trying to attack the devs or just want to hate madden at all costs. Which both are false. We really desire a current gen feeling NFL simulation football game.
    SageInfinite
    I think he was making the point that you could place players in any position and they'd perform exceptionally in the game? IDK, that's how it came off to me, lol.

    That's what if figures he meant. That's why I asked if he was being sarcastic lol.
    CM Hooe
    I'm speaking more to mechanics than exposure. Madden 18 might be the most balanced, most consistent, and most reliable online head-to-head sports game I've ever touched.
    On the exposure front, however: last I read (about a month ago via PastaPadre), that NBA 2K league has been a colossal flop so far. 2K's e-sport scene simply can't touch Madden's right now. The Madden scene admittedly isn't huge relative to Fortnite or Overwatch, but it's been around for over a decade and a firmly entrenched fixture on the periphery of the scene because it grew organically over time.

    I’m guessing you’ve never touched FIFA then.
    Is everyone who is defending EA and tiburon really happy with how little was added this year? I’ll tell you if 2k released this little info I can assure you the 2k community would be up in arms. But we are at a point where we expect mass info in all areas of the game from them because they set a high bar! Are you guys just complacent and used to it with madden so you accept the small changes and are ok with it?
    The argument or debate started with people saying 11 v 11 is not comparable and it’s “too hard” for madden to add this or that, and triple A games are just too tough to develop. Hence the well others are doing it or others have done it argument which is fact. Ncaa football 08 was great imo. I loved that game. It’s been 10 years so my memory of everything that was in it is foggy, but I do remember loving it and I do remember liking how the CPU AI played in that game for it’s time. So, it’s been done before. That NCAA team went above and beyond and Ben was at the head correct?
    Like Sage, others, and I have said it seems lazy. You can deflect all you want... I have no idea why Rex left, but I can’t help but feel like it was partly out of frustration of trying to fight the good fight. Compared to last year and the huge list of legacy issues they knocked out this year isnt even comparable... What legacy issues were fixed this year anyways? Wind meter? Challenge system? Pocket presence? I could go on and on and on... Shoot, last year they even took resources away from the game, spent 2-3 years on longshot (I never even tried it out of principle), and took a guy over to NBA Live all year. Taking huge resources away from 1 of its best selling games. That’s crazy no? I will say IMO it is a good thing though that EA is doing a Beta for 2 weeks! I can’t ever remember them doing that before? Hopefully this impacts and helps the final product we see on release (I’m sure it will). That’s a positive step imo. I do think EA is scared to tinker too much though and screw everything up. I get the analogy used earlier of steering the aircraft carrier. But 2k just isn’t scared to try new things and continue to be innovative.
    If people read the article I posted earlier in this thread in how EA is constantly rated 1 of the worst companies to work for, got sued by employees for not paying overtime, getting exclusive licensing then immediately putting out games with less and less features, etc it’s no wonder we are where we are. The only argument I would buy from anyone is the suits are holding the devs back. If that’s not the issue then it’s just flat out a lack of vision, lack of ability to make it happen, or a lack of leadership? What else can it possibly be? I don’t buy it’s too hard... sorry...
    SageInfinite
    I just get tired of things not changing year after year.
    Some people might have the opinion that I don't enjoy Madden. I do. I like the game. I've played it more the past few years than I ever have(16,17,18), but I'm not gonna front or lie like it's a good game. It's not a good game to me, yet I still enjoy it.

    My sentiments exactly... Just because we are frustrated with things and holding a higher standard for them and what the game is lacking doesn’t mean I don’t play it or enjoy it “for what it is”...
    howboutdat
    This is the one thing i think often gets lost or misconstrued when someone points out clear issues with how they develop the game from year to year, issues that are still there , things that are missing etc.
    For some reason many think you are attacking the devs .Saying they do nothing . When in reality , i believe most of us who have issues with just "accepting" these things as ok , really take a huge issue with EA because these issues continue to keep going on. Most of us realize, this company is raking in literally 100s of MILLIONS per year just off Madden.We have consoles that are more than twice as powerful as 2004-6 era. Yet with all that money and more powerful systems ...... EA fails to deliver. Not because they can't but simply because they choose , as a company( at the higher levels) , not too.
    That is some of the main reason so many are so ticked off with them. Not the devs. Im sure they , like most people who work anymore anywhere , are overworked and under paid for what they are doing. Because that is a common business model now in days, to turn more profit faster for the company( i should know i learned all about it in business college 2 decades ago). The company has more than enough funds to improve this game more than they do, but instead they just trickle things out. That is the real issue that many have , but always gets turned back on us , like we are trying to attack the devs or just want to hate madden at all costs. Which both are false. We really desire a current gen feeling NFL simulation football game.

    Well said! Great post!
    Vann;
    I appreciate your passion to help try to change Madden, many others in the past decade have had the same passion as you have. A lot of people have had your same energy and here we are. The revels start coming in around June, comments are made positive or negative before the game arrives, once the game is out, some stay a few weeks after release or more and then leave until June comes around again.
    For me, it's not about being complacent at all. It's all about historical references and history, most of the times, history is a good predictor of the future.
    Once EA Tibs proves me wrong, I will admit to it, but I fail to see EA Tib changing their processes.
    vannwolfhawk
    Is everyone who is defending EA and tiburon really happy with how little was added this year? I’ll tell you if 2k released this little info I can assure you the 2k community would be up in arms. But we are at a point where we expect mass info in all areas of the game from them because they set a high bar! Are you guys just complacent and used to it with madden so you accept the small changes and are ok with it?
    The argument or debate started with people saying 11 v 11 is not comparable and it’s “too hard” for madden to add this or that, and triple A games are just too tough to develop. Hence the well others are doing it or others have done it argument which is fact. Ncaa football 08 was great imo. I loved that game. It’s been 10 years so my memory of everything that was in it is foggy, but I do remember loving it and I do remember liking how the CPU AI played in that game for it’s time. So, it’s been done before. That NCAA team went above and beyond and Ben was at the head correct?
    Like Sage, others, and I have said it seems lazy. You can deflect all you want... I have no idea why Rex left, but I can’t help but feel like it was partly out of frustration of trying to fight the good fight. Compared to last year and the huge list of legacy issues they knocked out this year isnt even comparable... What legacy issues were fixed this year anyways? Wind meter? Challenge system? Pocket presence? I could go on and on and on... Shoot, last year they even took resources away from the game, spent 2-3 years on longshot (I never even tried it out of principle), and took a guy over to NBA Live all year. Taking huge resources away from 1 of its best selling games. That’s crazy no? I will say IMO it is a good thing though that EA is doing a Beta for 2 weeks! I can’t ever remember them doing that before? Hopefully this impacts and helps the final product we see on release (I’m sure it will). That’s a positive step imo. I do think EA is scared to tinker too much though and screw everything up. I get the analogy used earlier of steering the aircraft carrier. But 2k just isn’t scared to try new things and continue to be innovative.
    If people read the article I posted earlier in this thread in how EA is constantly rated 1 of the worst companies to work for, got sued by employees for not paying overtime, getting exclusive licensing then immediately putting out games with less and less features, etc it’s no wonder we are where we are. The only argument I would buy from anyone is the suits are holding the devs back. If that’s not the issue then it’s just flat out a lack of vision, lack of ability to make it happen, or a lack of leadership? What else can it possibly be? I don’t buy it’s too hard... sorry...

    Problem is, it is mostly all opinion and speculation. EA's Battlefield series is one of the best in the first person shooter genre, IMO. The series creates many innovated gameplay additions; granted they have a longer cycle. But then DICE may have certain qualities that Tiburon does not have. EA is the publisher. I would assume DICE doesn't have the NFL or similar controlling entity hovering over every move they make.
    I don't have any facts on hand, but EA, like the Patriots, being big and successful, seems to lend to more people targetting them with any numer of reasons behind lawsuits. We have a tendency, as people and IMO, to attack the lead horse.
    vannwolfhawk
    Is everyone who is defending EA and tiburon really happy with how little was added this year? I’ll tell you if 2k released this little info I can assure you the 2k community would be up in arms. But we are at a point where we expect mass info in all areas of the game from them because they set a high bar! Are you guys just complacent and used to it with madden so you accept the small changes and are ok with it?
    The argument or debate started with people saying 11 v 11 is not comparable and it’s “too hard” for madden to add this or that, and triple A games are just too tough to develop. Hence the well others are doing it or others have done it argument which is fact. Ncaa football 08 was great imo. I loved that game. It’s been 10 years so my memory of everything that was in it is foggy, but I do remember loving it and I do remember liking how the CPU AI played in that game for it’s time. So, it’s been done before. That NCAA team went above and beyond and Ben was at the head correct?
    Like Sage, others, and I have said it seems lazy. You can deflect all you want... I have no idea why Rex left, but I can’t help but feel like it was partly out of frustration of trying to fight the good fight. Compared to last year and the huge list of legacy issues they knocked out this year isnt even comparable... What legacy issues were fixed this year anyways? Wind meter? Challenge system? Pocket presence? I could go on and on and on... Shoot, last year they even took resources away from the game, spent 2-3 years on longshot (I never even tried it out of principle), and took a guy over to NBA Live all year. Taking huge resources away from 1 of its best selling games. That’s crazy no? I will say IMO it is a good thing though that EA is doing a Beta for 2 weeks! I can’t ever remember them doing that before? Hopefully this impacts and helps the final product we see on release (I’m sure it will). That’s a positive step imo. I do think EA is scared to tinker too much though and screw everything up. I get the analogy used earlier of steering the aircraft carrier. But 2k just isn’t scared to try new things and continue to be innovative.
    If people read the article I posted earlier in this thread in how EA is constantly rated 1 of the worst companies to work for, got sued by employees for not paying overtime, getting exclusive licensing then immediately putting out games with less and less features, etc it’s no wonder we are where we are. The only argument I would buy from anyone is the suits are holding the devs back. If that’s not the issue then it’s just flat out a lack of vision, lack of ability to make it happen, or a lack of leadership? What else can it possibly be? I don’t buy it’s too hard... sorry...

    So on point, their are no words for it. Not drinking the kool aid doesn't mean we "hate madden". We are holding one of the biggest publishers, of one of the biggest selling games, representing the biggest sport in America to higher standards. As we should.
    I have been in b2b sales for the last 15 years. If I constantly sold my customers packages that hey were not satisfied with and then spent half of my time explaining why it couldn't be done or why i couldn't give them a product as equal in quality as another companies product , I would be out of the job.
    Not excepting empty excuses is not "hating madden".
    4thQtrStre5S
    Problem is, it is mostly all opinion and speculation. EA's Battlefield series is one of the best in the first person shooter genre, IMO. The series creates many innovated gameplay additions; granted they have a longer cycle. But then DICE may have certain qualities that Tiburon does not have. EA is the publisher. I would assume DICE doesn't have the NFL or similar controlling entity hovering over every move they make.

    While i get what your saying here. Id also point out NBA Live 18( imo ) was a well done basketball game. Yes it has some issues, but i was impressed with not only the gameplay , but all the things they added to it . I really enjoy that game alot. Same with battlefield series. Ill play that over COD any day of the week. But , in no way , do i see the NFL standing over EA , saying , no dont make realistic football ( outside of concussions, players beating their women , etc) . I dont see them telling EA, dont make this awesome .
    The real difference is - Battlefield and NBA Live both have something Madden does not , and that is competition. They have no choice but to really improve and be innovative, or be beat out by competition. Live is trying to catch up to 2K. Personally i like both of those games. But lets be honest, the difference is competition and EA knows they have the NFL market cornered.
    4thQtrStre5S
    Problem is, it is mostly all opinion and speculation. EA's Battlefield series is one of the best in the first person shooter genre, IMO. The series creates many innovated gameplay additions; granted they have a longer cycle. But then DICE may have certain qualities that Tiburon does not have. EA is the publisher. I would assume DICE doesn't have the NFL or similar controlling entity hovering over every move they make.
    I don't have any facts on hand, but EA, like the Patriots, being big and successful, seems to lend to more people targetting them with any numer of reasons behind lawsuits. We have a tendency, as people and IMO, to attack the lead horse.

    I actually saw a lot more fact in that article than speculation. Speculation is an assumption without facts.
    You mean to tell me the whole loot box controversy with Star Wars didn't happen? You mean to tell me that EA employees weren't awarded damages due to mistreatment? You mean to tell me the NFL license wasn't done to squash a real and growing threat? You mean to tell me that EA hasn't been purchasing quality studios and then shuttering them at an alarming rate?
    Not being rude. But I think the mans article was more fact then speculation. The Jerry colangelo twitter article is more speculation than this.
    roadman
    Vann;
    I appreciate your passion to help try to change Madden, many others in the past decade have had the same passion as you have. A lot of people have had your same energy and here we are. The revels start coming in around June, once the game is out, some stay a few weeks after release or more and then leave until June comes around again.
    For me, it's not about being complacent at all. It's all about historical references and history, most of the times, history is a good predictor of the future.
    Once EA Tibs proves me wrong, I will admit to it, but I fail to see EA Tib changing their processes.

    History tells us complacency has always been a issue I get it. Every year I post a thread with my gripes/wishlists, etc. I might not frequent these forums all year long, but I’m always here June- November or December. I state my issues, read the forums, grab some things to make the game better, and try and fix things myself and for the community (gameplanning) so they can have a better experience. Shoot, I spend more time fixing things so I can enjoy playing vs the CPU in playbooks, roster ratings, etc then I do playing it half the time. Lol! But that doesn’t mean we give up and that change isn’t possible. Look at CPU gameplanning that EA finally addressed this year for the 1st time since gameplanning was put in. Why was that? It finally created a buzz with myself, sabo, and kinggro I believe with 3 Playbook threads on how bad it was. It opened the eyes of many who didn’t even know it was a simple fix and the huge difference it had for CPU AI and gameplay. That’s a positive.
    2k has pretty much always been innovative, but they have really upped their game in the last 5-6 years imo. It wasn’t always as overwhelming as it has been in recent years. But they have no turnover, great leadership and vision, hire great passionate and knowledgeable guys from our community like OG, Czar, beds, and leftos to add to the depth of the game in their areas of expertise as they knew they could improve in those areas with them. They also allow freedom to be innovative and create an atmosphere of creativity. So, it’s not impossible for it to happen and EA just needs to look at it through a different set of glasses is all. Try something different. Bring the “if it’s in the game it’s in the game” back. I think the more sim and real life 2k got the better it got and more well received it got. I believe the same to be true for madden if they chose that route. The game and all modes would or could benefit...
    I get it though you are content with it and realize it is what it is. I am as well to an extent, but I won’t give up and just stay quiet and think change isn’t possible either...
    4thQtrStre5S
    Problem is, it is mostly all opinion and speculation. EA's Battlefield series is one of the best in the first person shooter genre, IMO. The series creates many innovated gameplay additions; granted they have a longer cycle. But then DICE may have certain qualities that Tiburon does not have. EA is the publisher. I would assume DICE doesn't have the NFL or similar controlling entity hovering over every move they make.
    I don't have any facts on hand, but EA, like the Patriots, being big and successful, seems to lend to more people targetting them with any numer of reasons behind lawsuits. We have a tendency, as people and IMO, to attack the lead horse.

    I don't agree that it is an "EA" problem as much as it is a Tiburon problem. Never in my life have I seen more excuses and free passes made for a dev studio. Fifa is also an EA game, and it is an impressive creation. I look at NBA Live and Madden, both of which are Tiburon games, and they are both severely lacking. There will always be people who complain just to complain and I will never understand that. Honestly, if I was as passionate a basketball fan as I am a football fan, I'd never be on a forum complaining about NBA 2k. I also wouldn't feel the need to comment about NBA Live since I already have a complete, fantastic experience from NBA 2k. Most people don't care who makes the game, they just want it to be great. How does it benefit anyone just to hate or defend a particular company? I'll never understand that sentiment. If Madden was on the same level as NBA2k, FIFA and the SHow, I'd be lining up at midnight to buy it every year. I'd be taking sick days to play it and I'd be telling a lot of my buddies to pick it up - just like I did many years ago. The fact that it was made by EA doesn't mean anything to me, nor should it. Why would have any angst towards a company that provides me with something that is a phenomenal product?
    Undoubtedly, there are some incredibly bright folks who work there. However, collectively, as a team their ideas, design decisions and lackluster implementations show otherwise. Common sense seems to be completely absent at times. Just look at how they approach presentation. They once stated that they wanted to copy real life (i.e Madden 12). Camera shots and angles were excellent! The following year, they reversed that position and went to "beyond broadcast" which no one ever asked for. They want what they see in real life. Then they went and created the 3 separate game modes (albeit far too long to finally do this). They explained how those modes will allow them to cater the game to the different player types. Really? We still can't get realistic football elements in the game because competitive players complain. What was the point of the 3 separate modes then? When they implemented penalties, they did it half *** - not including many of the real penalties in football. Still no offsetting penalties. The challenge system is still from 2 generations ago. They just added some ball physics in Madden 17 (and it's still not done well). Every year the kicking mechanics change, yet it's still automatic. How many years do you have to waste time on that? They are constantly saying how x or y takes time because resources are precious. Yes, they are precious for ALL development studios with far less money than they have.
    Some stuff I will put on EA up top like these:
    They couldn't add items to franchise because they wanted to spend 4 years working on a story mode (that no one really asked for) along with creating a whole new mode (Draft Champs - which no one really asked for) along with the most desired feature of all - THE GAUNTLET. These are foolish decisions if you are running low on resources. No one bought Madden to play the Gauntlet or because Draft Champs were in the game. It's sheer and utter cluelessness. Making a story mode would have been fine for most madden players if the Franchise mode had already been fully fleshed out. Even their own Creative Director professed his disgust for this. Yet they pulled most of their resources to build the cart before you even have half of the horse. It's exhausting. All the while, we are approaching the second next gen console generation that has been wasted and we don't see a true next gen experience.
    But hey, the servers are definitely solid and I can play head to head...
    howboutdat
    While i get what your saying here. Id also point out NBA Live 18( imo ) was a well done basketball game. Yes it has some issues, but i was impressed with not only the gameplay , but all the things they added to it . I really enjoy that game alot. Same with battlefield series. Ill play that over COD any day of the week. But , in no way , do i see the NFL standing over EA , saying , no dont make realistic football ( outside of concussions, players beating their women , etc) . I dont see them telling EA, dont make this awesome .
    The real difference is - Battlefield and NBA Live both have something Madden does not , and that is competition. They have no choice but to really improve and be innovative, or be beat out by competition. Live is trying to catch up to 2K. Personally i like both of those games. But lets be honest, the difference is competition and EA knows they have the NFL market cornered.

    Competition does help push innovation and risk-taking. Managing Madden is potentially a lot more about maintaining the status quo. They have the numbers that suggest a relatively consistent consumer base. So they can make minor changes to hold their current user base. They add in a Longshot to attract new consumers.
    Longshot does provide long-term benefits. The mode, along with Frostbite allow for abilities which can bring the immersion and atmosphere alive. I believe the dynamic scenes in CFM are indicators of more to come. But like many, I am curious why their development seems slower.
    As I initially stated, risk and risk aversion can be huge hurdles for a company to overcome. They have an idea of their future with Madden based on past performance. NBA Live has competition, but is a newer endeavor, is it not? The initial push to bring NBA live up to speed is assisted by competition and direct knowledge of what sells or does not sell in a game evenly comparable.
    I would add, Madden does have NCAA to look at. I do not recall the sales of NCAA in relation to Madden. I would assume Madden sold more. IMO if Madden sold more than NCAA it was more due to the national popularity of the NFL and its solidarity. I know lots of people love NCAA football, just not sure how many of those fans play video games.
    If NCAA has more fans in real life, but the game sold less than Madden, there may be executives who believe that NCAA features are not worth replicating because they may see those NCAA features as not being popular enough to sale. Which could be a huge misjudgment of information.
    Anyway, I am rambling. Sorry.
    vannwolfhawk
    History tells us complacency has always been a issue I get it. Every year I post a thread with my gripes/wishlists, etc. I might not frequent these forums all year long, but I’m always here June- November or December. I state my issues, read the forums, grab some things to make the game better, and try and fix things myself and for the community (gameplanning) so they can have a better experience. Shoot, I spend more time fixing things so I can enjoy playing vs the CPU in playbooks, roster ratings, etc then I do playing it half the time. Lol! But that doesn’t mean we give up and that change isn’t possible. Look at CPU gameplanning that EA finally addressed this year for the 1st time since gameplanning was put in. Why was that? It finally created a buzz with myself, sabo, and kinggro I believe with 3 Playbook threads on how bad it was. It opened the eyes of many who didn’t even know it was a simple fix and the huge difference it had for CPU AI and gameplay. That’s a positive.
    2k has pretty much always been innovative, but they have really upped their game in the last 5-6 years imo. It wasn’t always as overwhelming as it has been in recent years. But they have no turnover, great leadership and vision, hire great passionate and knowledgeable guys from our community like OG, Czar, beds, and leftos to add to the depth of the game in their areas of expertise as they knew they could improve in those areas with them. They also allow freedom to be innovative and create an atmosphere of creativity. So, it’s not impossible for it to happen and EA just needs to look at it through a different set of glasses is all. Try something different. Bring the “if it’s in the game it’s in the game” back. I think the more sim and real life 2k got the better it got and more well received it got. I believe the same to be true for madden if they chose that route. The game and all modes would or could benefit...
    I get it though you are content with it and realize it is what it is. I am as well to an extent, but I won’t give up and just stay quiet and think change isn’t possible either...

    I appreciate everything you do for the community with the playbooks.
    A different set of glasses will need to come from within where the suits and marketing are lead.
    I appreciate your spirit, and if I want something in the game or I am not happy with sky high punts into the wind, lack of PI calls,etc...., I am vocal about it and I do it via the Developers on Twitter.
    So, yes, I do tolerate the game as it is, but that doesn't mean I'm completely satisfied with the game and it can't get better. And with the help of Sabo, you and the slider makers, I get a good game of football out of it.
Continue Reading

More in Madden NFL 19

Trending


Related

To Top