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NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

NBA 2K19

NBA 2K19 Playbook Changes Are a Significant Test Case for Simulation Basketball

Recently, NBA 2K has quietly made changes to its game designed to appeal to the simulation part of its customer base. Up until now, most team playbooks have been roughly similar. All of them have had a mix of pick and roll, three pointer, high and low post, cutter and isolation plays. The design premise was to give users a broad choice of plays to run their team’s offense as they see fit. A result was that teams controlled by the AI in 5-on-5 modes were also constrained by these general playbooks and did not truly resemble their real-life counterparts.

AI producer Da Czar has drastically altered the playbooks of three teams, the Rockets, Spurs and Lakers, to more closely reflect the types of plays these teams actually run. The changes are substantial and alter both the number of plays and the types of plays in each team’s playbook.

The current Houston playbook only contains 21 plays. Every other current team contains close to the allowed limit of 50 plays. Of their 21 plays, 12 are pick and rolls where a ball handler uses a high ball screen. Another five are reserved for isolations for when Harden or Paul detect a mismatch. The distilled simplicity of their offense has been re-created in NBA 2K. The real-life Rockets offense lacks the complexity of Golden State. It doesn’t send defenders through a maze of screens and misdirection and precision cuts. They set their ball handler up with a high screen, and James Harden or Chris Paul make reads on what the defense does. The current NBA 2K playbook reflects this.

Much is included but what is missing from this playbook by design? They have no post up plays. Either down low or up high. Their philosophical objection to the mid-range two has been implemented. Although, this is the case for most teams. Their new playbook has no guard post ups or hand-offs. Mike D’Antoni has claimed he’d be comfortable if his team shot 70 3s a game, but they rarely run plays designed to get threes like the Warriors do. Their long-range gunning is a result of drive and kick from Paul or Harden breaking down the defense in pick and roll. So Czar has only given them two plays designed to create a 3-point shot. This is a playbook with specifically scouted plays designed to resemble how the real Houston Rockets play.

Similarly, he has re-created the specificity of the Los Angeles and San Antonio offenses. The Spurs get post ups for LaMarcus Aldridge and DeMar DeRozan, while the Lakers can direct their offense through the spots LeBron wants.

Simulation NBA 2K gamers will be broadly supportive of this. Teams will more closely resemble themselves. But there is potential to alienate some users.

The Dangers of Change

In Play Now Online games, users of these teams who utilize playbooks will have to play as the AI designer intends them to. A post scorer in Pro-Am keen for some 5-on-5 action with Houston will struggle to adapt if they aren’t willing to change their style.

Secondly, these changes may require a user to develop a skill set necessary to play the intended style. When you’re playing spread pick and roll with James Harden, you need to know how to use the skip pass mechanic to get the ball over the first rotation to the corner shooter. If nothing opens up from the first pick and roll, the user may need to manually call a pick and roll. If the defense is playing for the roll, they will need to pop the screener. Or if the defense is loaded on one side, the user will need to know how to flip a pick and roll. Is the casual user familiar with these controls?

The AI engineers of NBA 2K are renowned for their commitment to bringing complex basketball concepts to this video game. This is another step in that direction. A much larger step may be taken for NBA 2K20. Will all teams have a playbook designed around their style and personnel? That would entail a mountain of work for the design team. Would that even be a wise move, considering the constant movement of players between teams and adjustment of styles? A phenom like Zion Williamson could force a team to reconsider a style they were wedded to. Whatever decisions are made, these changes represent the continued commitment of the 2K design team to simulation basketball.

Below are some series and play highlights from a CPU Houston and San Antonio game to see how the new system looks:

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  1. Should I comment on this or not??? This is a loaded one...
    I have a few different takes on this.
    For those that know me I have done real teams playbooks for years. I have scouted teams and put in their real plays, actions, and would get players ball in spots they liked to operate from to mimic real life execution of X's & O's. I would test the plays 1st in CPU vs CPU to make sure they were not broken, had good spacing, and the CPU executed them well. If you are not familiar with what I do then you can see the blogs and thread below of details of my work...
    Playbook Thread
    https://forums.operationsports.com/forums/nba-2k-basketball-rosters/917653-nba-2k18-real-synergy-scouted-team-specific-playbooks-complete.html
    Current Teams
    https://forums.operationsports.com/vannwolfhawk/blog/36079-2k18-current-team-full-playbooks/
    Classic Teams
    https://forums.operationsports.com/vannwolfhawk/blog/36069-2k18-classic-team-playbooks/
    I have no idea if people realized this or not but playbooks out of the box have always been generic. 30 teams and 15 teams shared a playbook with another team. Nothing was real about the playbooks in the past. The plays were real just not individual teams playbooks.
    When I first heard about this and saw czar's video on it, I got intrigued and had to take a peak. 1st thing that stood out was the low number of plays. I think the Rockets had 21, Lakers 28, and Spurs 31 out of a possible 50 total plays you can add per playbook.
    I don't like that for a few reasons. I like the idea of real play styles obviously, but you can not do playbooks like this for guys who want to play in my league. What happens if you were the Rockets and drafted Hakeem Olajuwon in a fantasy draft? What if 10 years down the road in your my league if D'Antoni was fired and or your squad is completely different. Well with these playbooks you have 0 post plays, mid plays, high post plays, cutter, DHO's, etc. You can add 50 plays but through play types still get the CPU to only call the 21 you have in their playbook. So, for example Capella or all bigs would have Roll Man Play type and no Low post play type. Same result but for my league longevity if you got Hakeem you would have Low post plays to use at least. You need to account for moves down the road.
    Secondly, NBA teams have monster playbooks. I have a few old NBA playbooks I had the opportunity to get my hands on in the past and they are 550 pages long! LOL! I heard people talk about the Bucks & their 5 out offense and it's all they are running. I had the chance to see them play the other day and watched the 1st half keeping track of every play they ran. Granted they ran 80% 5 out during the game but I still kept track and had 24 plays that they ran in 1 half of 1 game of basketball. They were all plays 2k had in either 18 or 19. Budenholzer still running alot of same stuff he ran in Atlanta too... What you see teams run in 1st 25 games, 2nd 25, and 3rd 25 games of the season are different. Then when the playoffs hit it becomes a half court game. You start to see all the plays in their playbook. My point is every team although to the naked eye and to most people think they are just running PNR all game and the same plays over and over are wrong. They might run PNR all game yes, but the pre action or where the PNR is happening & where each shooter is in a play is different. Every team easily should have 50 plays in it.
    Thirdly as a user this is bad. If you had this playbook (Rockets) and are going head to head with someone and only had 2 3 point plays in your playbook how easy is that to defend. I get they get alot of their 3's from PNR and drive & kick but I also guarantee if I scouted them I'd see some more 3 point plays mostly in ATO, EOG, etc...
    Another thing is we are 3 months from release of 2k. We are a month and a half into the NBA season. We have 3 teams playbooks done. No offense to anyone but all 30 should or could be done by now from thedata and game footage we already had. Will all 30 teams be done this year and by when? Or is this just a test? I am just curious? Reason I am curious is I know working on 2k20 has to be coming up shortly, no? Finishing this project for 19 would take away from that, no?
    My last thing is the Rockets & Spurs have the same coaches and style. This could really have been inputted in the off season and small tweaks after the season started for new actions and plays. The Lakers are different as although their coach is the same due to the crazy off season they had and the new roster we had no clue how Luke was going to play this year. I completely get the new coaches with new teams needing time to scout though. But guys like Pop & D'Antoni could have had been done pre release.
    My last concern is does this matter this year with CPU not calling or running any plays from within their playbook glitch and needing the workaround to have them run plays outside of Series & freelance? Is it worth doing more in 19 if this is not addressed?
    I like the idea of where this could go though. I'm all for realism. It would save me time every year that's for sure! I think it can be tweaked and they for surely need to account for my league players and long term my leagues. Good stuff Dirk & glad they have you on board talking about Playbooks & Tendencies as OS articles! Man after my own heart! LOL
    Do the creators of NBA 2K realize that much of the simulation crowd uses coach mode? First, they have it in, than we have to do a tiresome workaround, and next they take it out altogether. If NBA 2K was really interested in the simulation crowd, they would have left coach mode in, and not punish us because of the non simulation crowds misuse of this mode. 
    That Bucks playbook update was fire! �� wow! Still need to attest for my league longevity but GREAT update for sim rosters and for the Bucks to play like they do! THe 5 out stuff is amazing! Much needed!
    Edit- just tested Raptors and it’s bad. Bad spacing, broken plays, cpu doesn’t execute them well, etc. I’d keep maybe 10 of those plays tops for immersion reasons. The actions might be real but unfortunately the timing windows are not right which equals a lot of clutter unfortunately...
    robrien13;2049619009...Do the creators of NBA 2K realize that much of the simulation crowd uses coach mode? First, they have it in, than we have to do a tiresome workaround, and next they take it out altogether. If NBA 2K was really interested in the simulation crowd, they would have left coach mode in, and not punish us because of the non simulation crowds misuse of this mode
    You can still do coach mode you just can't watch the cpu vs cpu animations. If something big happens you can pause and instant replay, the game is still being "captured" as if you were in true coach mode. SimCast Live with audio on broadcast is what I use from time to time. I'm with you I wish they still had it in but yea easy on the font size.
    I didnt even realize 2k used the same playbook for all teams. Thats because 2k's AI is good at exploiting poor defense, mismatches, and going to the hot hand.
    the downside for having team based playbooks is that casual users will have a harder time adapting defensive schemes.
    having to devise a defensive scheme to stop a team is great for sim players and most likely not for casual or inexperienced 2k gamers
    Im all for the implementation, because ift forces you to learn a teams schemes in order to runa fluid offense. and like you stated in the article, can go a log way in a legacy mode when signing free agents and drafting etc.
    this will eventually will lead to alot of game improvements in gm/my league modes. the unique team playbooks will really open the strategy and innovation for the gm/legacy mode.
    Ive already thought of ideas just by reading this article.
    What could work for people who play Myleague/MyGM is to have coaches with different playbooks for each system they know. Some are more post heavy, guard heavy and whatnot you get the point.
    Inside the coach sliders there is a system adaptability slider that adjusts who the coach prefers to play based on system fit I believe. Well, if 2K can program another slider that could adjust the flexibility of the coach to change his system/playbook based on the types of players he has, that can help alter the play-styles of teams as the years go on. Great coaches would adjust easily, with knowledge of 2-3 systems with full playbooks and poor/underdeveloped coaches with 1 or 2 playbooks could find themselves fired dropping the moral and chemistry of the team.
    Also, as a result of a system like this coaches would need badges and just like the mentor system an assistant coach playing with a certain coach system can/should evolve his awareness of that system and bolster his rating of that system.
    I just tested all the new playbooks done today. It’s the same thing as always where everything needs to be tested before implemented in game. There are some unbelievable real actions added for all teams! The bad part is a ton of plays can’t be used in every playbook because the cpu just doesn’t execute them well, they are broken, or just bad spacing like in years past. But the good news is there are so many great plays added scattered between all teams that you can get the action you want from somewhere! This is basketball porn! No way could I go back to 18 now.
    Here is list of how many plays I’d keep or that you can keep per team after testing them all. All other plays is delete and replace so you don’t lose immersion in a game with bad execution.
    Bucks - 20
    Knicks - 15
    Raptors - 9
    Celtics - 10
    Lakers - 16
    Rockets - 14
    Spurs - 27
    I’ll list the plays to keep per team at some point. Just organizing as I go. Star rating them and organizing actions.
    There is just some incredible plays added that the cpu uses fantastically (is that a word?) lol! When all put together watching the cpu play would be insane! Hopefully he finishes all 30 teams! I can’t wait to see the Jazz book! The Celtics and Raptors were very disappointing though! But the plays I am keeping for all teams are almost all 5 star in execution!
    Keep in mind when I say this I am speaking of offline play playing vs the CPU as an opponent here...
    I've already tested the spurs and they are mostly on point, saw 1 repeated play and a few missing plays which I already feedback to czar through youtube. Shall I post in this thread for sharing purposes? No big deal bcos these plays can be added for myleague offline.
    Great thread, nice write-up. Make this thread the official 2K19 playbook thread
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    JoFri
    I've already tested the spurs and they are mostly on point, saw 1 repeated play and a few missing plays which I already feedback to czar through youtube. Shall I post in this thread for sharing purposes? No big deal bcos these plays can be added for myleague offline.
    Great thread, nice write-up. Make this thread the official 2K19 playbook thread
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Ya, the Spurs book was by far the best as far as the cpu executing them. Great actions in there too especially with the low post plays... the Fist 35 give down (weave into pnr) was smooth!
    Does anyone know if this affects current MyCareer saves or MyCareer generally? I play on the Rockets as a power forward and I’ve noticed that I’m being asked to set a lot of high screens similarly to how Harden and Paul play the pick game in real life, as well as a lot of slip screens for alley oop opportunities.
    A couple of things. Vannwolfhawk has forgotten more about the playbooks than I will ever know.
    Secondly, let's get behind these changes. I haven't played around with this 2nd batch yet, but let Czar and Mike Wang know that this is the way to go. The point of what I wrote is that it would test how far sim concepts can be implemented. If this gets a really positive reaction, we may get other bones thrown our way.
    And Im having a Bucks season soon, so this should be fantastic.
    Smirkin Dirk
    A couple of things. Vannwolfhawk has forgotten more about the playbooks than I will ever know.
    Secondly, let's get behind these changes. I haven't played around with this 2nd batch yet, but let Czar and Mike Wang know that this is the way to go. The point of what I wrote is that it would test how far sim concepts can be implemented. If this gets a really positive reaction, we may get other bones thrown our way.
    And Im having a Bucks season soon, so this should be fantastic.

    Having real plays from their respective teams is in no doubt the way to go for realism. The playbooks need to be put together better to reflect all modes though. Lastly plays have to be tested before being put in some way or another. Other than that I love it!
    I never thought we’d see some of the things that came out today in a video game any time soon. The dho’s and cutter plays are night and day from the last 5 years in that the cpu will hit that cutter pass and with the dho’s being better from a animation and user perspective it’s improved the depth for playbooks for the user and cpu controller teams. All steps in the right direction!
    vannwolfhawk
    The dho’s and cutter plays are night and day from the last 5 years

    I think that manual DHOs still need an actual screen set, and the reciever needs more and quicker animations out of them.
    Sometimes I will trigger an animation where the reciever forcefully uses the hand off 'screener' out of one.
    It seems to trigger on bottom to top DHOs rather than wing to top ones.
    Smirkin Dirk
    I think that manual DHOs still need an actual screen set, and the reciever needs more and quicker animations out of them.
    Sometimes I will trigger an animation where the reciever forcefully uses the hand off 'screener' out of one.
    It seems to trigger on bottom to top DHOs rather than wing to top ones.

    Well, people think I’m too negative so I try to add some positive in with the areas that still are needing improvement.
    But I agree with you 100%! I have touched on this in a few threads and posts throughout OS but will post it in here as well. Nba Live nailed their DHO’s. They are so smooth! Don’t get me wrong it’s all I like about Live. The point of a DHO is create confusion, cause a switch, allow offense a step, and act almost like a pnr.
    There are a few things wrong with DHO’s that can improve.
    1- smoother seem less animations like live has. It Needs to be smoother.
    2- I think a pick-pop-roll tendency is needed for specifically DHO’s. Yes you see it act as a screen like I’ve been saying the last few years but now we are seeing immediate rolls out of them with lifts and backside fills to really wreak havoc on the defense.
    Here is a perfect example... https://youtu.be/_wA4Fpzx08s
    3- The handoff points are bad. They stop and wait for the guy to come to them and it’s usually at the nail or ft line extended. They need to continue the stop point to extend past ft line which will allow for better spacing after the DHO to attack as well as give more immersion. It’s wonky as of now.
    4- After performing a DHO the handoff guy 50% of the time will defy all odds and run in opposite direction and run in front of me to cut me (ball handler off). This go’s back to number 2 though in needing these players to set a pick, roll, or pop immediately after a DHO is performed but not stand there or run and cut player off he just handed off too and he was going on the opposite direction. Lol!
    Like I said though it’s night and day better from last 5 years! The cpu usually executes it flawlessly but it couldn’t be in years past by a user. It still leaves a lot to be desired to represent real basketball and how teams play today though. It’s probably a tech thing though? Idk, maybe it isn’t on their radar though so it’s good to talk about. To me this is huge area that can be improved and would drastically improve the overall game and experience though no doubt! If we are talking about sim basketball and putting in things that the real nba is doing we need to be better and focus on DHO’s.
    vannwolfhawk
    Should I comment on this or not??? This is a loaded one...
    I have a few different takes on this.
    For those that know me I have done real teams playbooks for years. I have scouted teams and put in their real plays, actions, and would get players ball in spots they liked to operate from to mimic real life execution of X's & O's. I would test the plays 1st in CPU vs CPU to make sure they were not broken, had good spacing, and the CPU executed them well. If you are not familiar with what I do then you can see the blogs and thread below of details of my work...
    Playbook Thread
    https://forums.operationsports.com/forums/nba-2k-basketball-rosters/917653-nba-2k18-real-synergy-scouted-team-specific-playbooks-complete.html
    Current Teams
    https://forums.operationsports.com/vannwolfhawk/blog/36079-2k18-current-team-full-playbooks/
    Classic Teams
    https://forums.operationsports.com/vannwolfhawk/blog/36069-2k18-classic-team-playbooks/
    I have no idea if people realized this or not but playbooks out of the box have always been generic. 30 teams and 15 teams shared a playbook with another team. Nothing was real about the playbooks in the past. The plays were real just not individual teams playbooks.
    When I first heard about this and saw czar's video on it, I got intrigued and had to take a peak. 1st thing that stood out was the low number of plays. I think the Rockets had 21, Lakers 28, and Spurs 31 out of a possible 50 total plays you can add per playbook.
    I don't like that for a few reasons. I like the idea of real play styles obviously, but you can not do playbooks like this for guys who want to play in my league. What happens if you were the Rockets and drafted Hakeem Olajuwon in a fantasy draft? What if 10 years down the road in your my league if D'Antoni was fired and or your squad is completely different. Well with these playbooks you have 0 post plays, mid plays, high post plays, cutter, DHO's, etc. You can add 50 plays but through play types still get the CPU to only call the 21 you have in their playbook. So, for example Capella or all bigs would have Roll Man Play type and no Low post play type. Same result but for my league longevity if you got Hakeem you would have Low post plays to use at least. You need to account for moves down the road.
    Secondly, NBA teams have monster playbooks. I have a few old NBA playbooks I had the opportunity to get my hands on in the past and they are 550 pages long! LOL! I heard people talk about the Bucks & their 5 out offense and it's all they are running. I had the chance to see them play the other day and watched the 1st half keeping track of every play they ran. Granted they ran 80% 5 out during the game but I still kept track and had 24 plays that they ran in 1 half of 1 game of basketball. They were all plays 2k had in either 18 or 19. Budenholzer still running alot of same stuff he ran in Atlanta too... What you see teams run in 1st 25 games, 2nd 25, and 3rd 25 games of the season are different. Then when the playoffs hit it becomes a half court game. You start to see all the plays in their playbook. My point is every team although to the naked eye and to most people think they are just running PNR all game and the same plays over and over are wrong. They might run PNR all game yes, but the pre action or where the PNR is happening & where each shooter is in a play is different. Every team easily should have 50 plays in it.
    Thirdly as a user this is bad. If you had this playbook (Rockets) and are going head to head with someone and only had 2 3 point plays in your playbook how easy is that to defend. I get they get alot of their 3's from PNR and drive & kick but I also guarantee if I scouted them I'd see some more 3 point plays mostly in ATO, EOG, etc...
    Another thing is we are 3 months from release of 2k. We are a month and a half into the NBA season. We have 3 teams playbooks done. No offense to anyone but all 30 should or could be done by now from thedata and game footage we already had. Will all 30 teams be done this year and by when? Or is this just a test? I am just curious? Reason I am curious is I know working on 2k20 has to be coming up shortly, no? Finishing this project for 19 would take away from that, no?
    My last thing is the Rockets & Spurs have the same coaches and style. This could really have been inputted in the off season and small tweaks after the season started for new actions and plays. The Lakers are different as although their coach is the same due to the crazy off season they had and the new roster we had no clue how Luke was going to play this year. I completely get the new coaches with new teams needing time to scout though. But guys like Pop & D'Antoni could have had been done pre release.
    My last concern is does this matter this year with CPU not calling or running any plays from within their playbook glitch and needing the workaround to have them run plays outside of Series & freelance? Is it worth doing more in 19 if this is not addressed?
    I like the idea of where this could go though. I'm all for realism. It would save me time every year that's for sure! I think it can be tweaked and they for surely need to account for my league players and long term my leagues. Good stuff Dirk & glad they have you on board talking about Playbooks & Tendencies as OS articles! Man after my own heart! LOL

    I usually agree with Vann, but not here. I love the smaller playbooks. Its more authentic and team specific. I also think there should be a penalty when a team uses a playbook that is not their playbook irl. People underestimate how difficult it is to run some offenses in the nba. Not every team and player is smart enough to run a play or freestyle. I have seen 99 out of 100 Hawks games since 2003, and i promise you most of those teams dont run over 20 to 25 plays. Our 60 win team had a much bigger playbook then Bud's team last year. This year we are lucky if we run 10 plays in a game. But thats just the Hawks.
    Giving a team 50 plays vs 20 is a very realistic way of seperating organized, cerebral and sophisticated teams from the George Karl Nuggets. There is no way the Hawks could run a sophisticated offense this year, guys are constantly in the wrong place, like to see that reflected in 2k.
    alabamarob
    I usually agree with Vann, but not here. I love the smaller playbooks. Its more authentic and team specific. I also think there should be a penalty when a team uses a playbook that is not their playbook irl. People underestimate how difficult it is to run some offenses in the nba. Not every team and player is smart enough to run a play or freestyle. I have seen 99 out of 100 Hawks games since 2003, and i promise you most of those teams dont run over 20 to 25 plays. Our 60 win team had a much bigger playbook then Bud's team last year. This year we are lucky if we run 10 plays in a game. But thats just the Hawks.
    Giving a team 50 plays vs 20 is a very realistic way of seperating organized, cerebral and sophisticated teams from the George Karl Nuggets. There is no way the Hawks could run a sophisticated offense this year, guys are constantly in the wrong place, like to see that reflected in 2k.

    A couple things... 1st no offense taken everyone entitled to their own opinion. I think for most people 50 plays is too much to go through for most users. I am minority in I use all 50 game to game and know all my plays. Im not a good to player guy on the sticks, but I’ll out execute you through plays. It’s how my teams irl with less talent always over and over would beat top teams with way more talent. I’m all for the teams playing like real life 100%! You can still get that result with 50 plays though just depends how you put play types and what plays you use. How the Rockets are done will no doubt get you how they play irl. That’s the goal! I’m not opposed to that at all or how he went about it. I do the same thing.
    The playbooks in these cases though have to be different and account for all modes though. Just because you add 4 low post plays, 4 mid range, 4 high post, 4 cutter, and 4 DHO’s to a playbook like the rockets (which takes the total numbers of plays from 21-41 total plays now) you accounted for adding players down the road whether through trade, draft, etc. they will not be seen in the current Rockets players playbooks though because no one shares that play type. So, you still only have 21 plays that they will use and they will still play true to real life but they have 41 plays in playbook as opposed to 21. Make sense? This isn’t for you or even me as you and me use real rosters. This is for the guys who play fantasy my leagues. You have to account for that. Put yourself in their shoes in if you added Hakeem or Dale Ellis to that roster then what? You would go to call a play for them and they would have 0 plays. That just doesn’t work.
    As far as teams running no more then 20 plays you are wrong. It seems like it but not the case at all. A simple search on synergy whether searching off ball screen plays, ATO plays, etc will show you otherwise. Synergy is a Ferrari man! It breaks everything down! I can watch every play all season of JJ reddick (any player) coming off a screen, cutting, etc. when you narrow your searches down you are amazed at the plays you see! Nba playbooks are deep! Shoot, there are literally 100 blob and slobs in a teams playbooks alone and jotted down on their cards in their jackets for those EOG or special situations that are in their playbook and practiced at some point during the season.
    Now all that being said the bucks as an example they run 5 out 80% of the game, but watching 1 half of basketball I saw 24 plays they could add in 2k that they ran in the 1st half. Thats Budenholzer as you know well. I purposely kept track the other day because people are like nba only pnr and iso b-ball and bucks only running 5 out. Lol! Sure to naked eye you see pnr but is it at top, wing, sideline, sts action, etc. what about the pre action to disguise the pnr?
    To add to your point though too what you see now as opposed to later in a nba season as far as early season being more like pick up b-ball and when games start to matter and let alone playoffs you really see the full playbook come to life especially in a series and game to game. If a team runs a play once or twice in 3-4 games it’s in their playbook. Shoot, my teams have 75-100 plays easy. I have series, small adjustments, etc. I might not run a play for 5-6 games until I come across a team that is playing me a certain way and/or there is a mismatch and the best way to attack it is using this play. Granted I think today’s playbooks are considerably smaller today as opposed to yesterday! No question about that! But the 550 page playbooks I have are probably more like 250 pages now even though you see 10 things 80% of the game. Whether it’s a simple stagger, weave into pnr, double horns pnr that flows into a high low, etc. a lot of times it’s a quick hitter that if not open immediately and gets you a shot it just flows into freelance and then you just play basketball. So we replicate the pre action...
    To add 1 more key thing here I think is really important and will help explain why and how 50 total plays is so easy to achieve...
    How I have done playbooks is very similar to what czar has done with series. This kind of ties back to your point a bit. For example though the Celtics run flex action here and there. What czar did with series this year is great! He also made each series option into plays so if your looking for 1 specific action. Irl I have series and call a play UCLA. I have UCLA 1-7. Depending how defense is playing I will call 1 of those 7 plays out. Back to the Celtics example, they run flex so instead of just having 1 flex play in their playbook you add the series of flex plays. That might mean 1 flex play in multiple play types of pnr, low post, cutter, DHO, mid range, and 3 point. That’s 6 plays added (a series basically) to 1 teams playbook. Now think if a team has 4 series they run irl. That can be 24 plays. Now factor in the basic pnr’s And iso’s. Easily another 16 plays you can add. 50 plays, series, counters or whatever you want to call it is not even enough to replicate real life but more then enough for a video game to replicate it! Plus 99% of users would never use or even go that deep I get that. But that might clear it up a bit and better understand how you can get to 50 pretty easily. Rockets are an anamoly though in their play style.
    vannwolfhawk
    A couple things... 1st no offense taken everyone entitled to their own opinion. I think for most people 50 plays is too much to go through for most users. I am minority in I use all 50 game to game and know all my plays. Im not a good to player guy on the sticks, but I’ll out execute you through plays. It’s how my teams irl with less talent always over and over would beat top teams with way more talent. I’m all for the teams playing like real life 100%! You can still get that result with 50 plays though just depends how you put play types and what plays you use. How the Rockets are done will no doubt get you how they play irl. That’s the goal! I’m not opposed to that at all or how he went about it. I do the same thing.
    The playbooks in these cases though have to be different and account for all modes though. Just because you add 4 low post plays, 4 mid range, 4 high post, 4 cutter, and 4 DHO’s to a playbook like the rockets (which takes the total numbers of plays from 21-41 total plays now) you accounted for adding players down the road whether through trade, draft, etc. they will not be seen in the current Rockets players playbooks though because no one shares that play type. So, you still only have 21 plays that they will use and they will still play true to real life but they have 41 plays in playbook as opposed to 21. Make sense? This isn’t for you or even me as you and me use real rosters. This is for the guys who play fantasy my leagues. You have to account for that. Put yourself in their shoes in if you added Hakeem or Dale Ellis to that roster then what? You would go to call a play for them and they would have 0 plays. That just doesn’t work.
    As far as teams running no more then 20 plays you are wrong. It seems like it but not the case at all. A simple search on synergy whether searching off ball screen plays, ATO plays, etc will show you otherwise. Synergy is a Ferrari man! It breaks everything down! I can watch every play all season of JJ reddick (any player) coming off a screen, cutting, etc. when you narrow your searches down you are amazed at the plays you see! Nba playbooks are deep! Shoot, there are literally 100 blob and slobs in a teams playbooks alone and jotted down on their cards in their jackets for those EOG or special situations that are in their playbook and practiced at some point during the season.
    Now all that being said the bucks as an example they run 5 out 80% of the game, but watching 1 half of basketball I saw 24 plays they could add in 2k that they ran in the 1st half. Thats Budenholzer as you know well. I purposely kept track the other day because people are like nba only pnr and iso b-ball and bucks only running 5 out. Lol! Sure to naked eye you see pnr but is it at top, wing, sideline, sts action, etc. what about the pre action to disguise the pnr?
    To add to your point though too what you see now as opposed to later in a nba season as far as early season being more like pick up b-ball and when games start to matter and let alone playoffs you really see the full playbook come to life especially in a series and game to game. If a team runs a play once or twice in 3-4 games it’s in their playbook. Shoot, my teams have 75-100 plays easy. I have series, small adjustments, etc. I might not run a play for 5-6 games until I come across a team that is playing me a certain way and/or there is a mismatch and the best way to attack it is using this play. Granted I think today’s playbooks are considerably smaller today as opposed to yesterday! No question about that! But the 550 page playbooks I have are probably more like 250 pages now even though you see 10 things 80% of the game. Whether it’s a simple stagger, weave into pnr, double horns pnr that flows into a high low, etc. a lot of times it’s a quick hitter that if not open immediately and gets you a shot it just flows into freelance and then you just play basketball. So we replicate the pre action...

    Not counting out of bounds plays i promise you the hawks dont run more then 10 to 15 plays. Please check that ferarri and let me know. Watch them tonight. 5 diff pnrs. 5 hand offs and 2 cutters and 3 pin downs. If you think Spellman knows 50 plays you are wrong. Ha. And i like Spellman. There are only 100 plus possessions in a game. You really think they calling 40 plays?
    alabamarob
    Not counting out of bounds plays i promise you the hawks dont run more then 10 to 15 plays. Please check that ferarri and let me know. Watch them tonight. 5 diff pnrs. 5 hand offs and 2 cutters and 3 pin downs. If you think Spellman knows 50 plays you are wrong. Ha. And i like Spellman. There are only 100 plus possessions in a game. You really think they calling 40 plays?

    Lol! Challenge accepted! Is this your way of putting the Hawks at the top of my playbooks and to do list?! Haha joke! I’m not saying they call 40 plays per game at all! What I am saying is over a 20 game period you would see 40 plays for sure. They might not call a play 1 game but might use it in the next game. But it’s in their playbook.
    I think your point is you want to see what they do the majority of the time represented and who cares about the play they run here and there? I get that point and it’s a fair point. I like to add that 1 play in their playbook for variety as well as it exists in their playbook.
    And for the record... I love Spellman! He’s got a pretty high iq I thought in watching his film from Villanova... To be fair, I have not caught or watched 1 Hawks game this year yet...
    vannwolfhawk
    Lol! Challenge accepted! Is this your way of putting the Hawks at the top of my playbooks and to do list?! Haha joke! I’m not saying they call 40 plays per game at all! What I am saying is over a 20 game period you would see 40 plays for sure. They might not call a play 1 game but might use it in the next game. But it’s in their playbook.
    I think your point is you want to see what they do the majority of the time represented and who cares about the play they run here and there? I get that point and it’s a fair point. I like to add that 1 play in their playbook for variety as well as it exists in their playbook.
    And for the record... I love Spellman! He’s got a pretty high iq I thought in watching his film from Villanova... To be fair, I have not caught or watched 1 Hawks game this year yet...

    Fyi. Running the same play for 2 different people is not 2 plays. Ha
    alabamarob
    Fyi. Running the same play for 2 different people is not 2 plays. Ha

    Lmao! Ohhhhhh, now there are stipulations and rules to this? Lol! Don’t worry I already watched some film and started on this project. I’m sitting at 24 plays! Just getting loose! Ha
    I will say watching the Hawks Play style as a coach is beyond annoying! I get it though, tank and get that lottery pick! Smh!
    Well AROB you were not lying or exaggerating! Well, maybe a little… LOL! The Hawks are not fun to watch as a coach I will say that! SMH! I will also say they do not do my examples earlier any favors. BUT, teams like the Rockets & Hawks are not indicative of how the rest of the league plays for sure. I can see why you thought that they didn’t run much stuff though, because they don’t! HA! They do run quite a few PNR’s & DHO’s into PNR’s though. They definitely don’t run a lot of set plays with multiple options in it let alone any off ball actions REALLY, and they have way too much freedom to improvise imo… I can’t believe how little they run & I have never seen anything like it as far as lack of coaching or structure. Most all their 3’s come from drive & kick as does the Rockets. They must have there eyes on someone in that draft though! LOL! I’d probably not give them more than 35 real plays tops. I’d give 4 mid and 4 high post plays to the playbook just for my league purposes, but those plays wouldn’t apply for this team as no one would have those play types.
    Anyways, I listed a few plays I saw in just watching some highlights of 3 games with searching only made shots in each game. As a user this might not be a playbook that is ideal to use online because of the DHO’s, but thats just the NBA now a days… It became frustrating though because a lot of the play actions I KNOW they had in 2K18 are no longer in 2K19 so I had to mimic and improvise a bit… A few plays they ran (especially some 3 Pt plays & shots from corner on swing & Runner action) I couldn’t even improvise as they are not in either game and we will just need to wait for Czar to update and add them in the game when he does the Hawks update. I will watch some more and get back and add to this list as I go. I just wanted to give you something to start with… Keep in mind I just watched 3 games worth of film here and I haven’t even searched the 3 point plays or off screen stuff yet…
    Atlanta Hawks Plays
    - **Fist 5 Out 6 - PNR
    - **Fist 25 Give - PNR
    - **Fist 5 Out - PNR (Backside Fill)
    - **Fist 35 Swing Quick - PNR Option
    - **Fist 15 Chin Give - PNR
    - **08 Punch 15 Fist - Low Post
    - **Fist 52 Side - PNR Option
    - **Fist Bull Pitch - PNR Option
    - Fist 51 Give 4 Out - PNR Option
    - Punch 5 Horns Fist 2 - Low Post
    - **Fist 15 High - PNR Option
    - **Fist 15 Side - PNR Option
    - Fist 5 Short 4 CNR - PNR Option
    - ISO 1 Quick - ISO
    - Punch 12 Spread - Guard Post
    - Fist 45 Give - PNR Option
    - ISO 1 Spread - ISO
    - Fist 81 Out - PNR 3Pt
    -
    - Run Punch 15 Spread - Low Post - (Low Laker Cut Instead) They run a High Laker Cut but NO Plays to replicate it in 2k19 but had 5 plays like it in 18.
    - Fist 35 Horns X - PNR - (Only play with flip action close enough in 2k19 to mimic the action - 3 Should drive and 5 sprints to weak side corner 3 pt.)
    All 3 of the next plays are Elbow passes and the same idea. They ran this quite a bit. Unfortunately no play in the game for the action but these 3 get as close as possible Within the DHO & 3 Pt. Play types.
    - Give Elbow 43 - DHO (Had to mimic this as well. It is close as Collins receives the elbow pass but Huerter cuts off split action and Tre comes back for DHO instead IRL)
    - Same as above you could get away with Give Horns 42 Away - DHO - to mimic & get variety of action.
    - 90 Quick 2 Give - 3Pt. - As close as you will get for the action listed above again as it was Huerter coming around for the 3 after the elbow and DHO. Difference here is Elbow pass to the 5 man not Collins at the 4.
    - Cut 15 Alley - Cutter
    - ISO 2 Spread - ISO
    - ISO 5 Out 4 - ISO
    - Give Elbow Series - DHO
    - Give 42 Horns - DHO
    - Give Warriors Fist 2 - DHO - Pinch Post (only thing wrong strong corner should be clear.
    - Fist HHD Series - PNR
    - Fist 15 Flat - PNR 3 Pt
    - Punch 45 X - Low Post
    - Quick Veer Fist - 3 Pt.
    - Fist 25 Quick - PNR
    - Give 51 5 Out - DHO
    - Quick 51 Give - 3 Pt.???
    - 98 Punch 25 - Low Post??? - Mimic Triangle Post Entry without the strong side DHO 1st… This also provides the High Laker Cut thru of the other Low Post Action.
    - Quick Wide PIN - 3 Pt.
    Similar Actions But Not The Actual Play
    - 15 Fist 2 Quick - Mid Range
    Possibilities For Plays To Add For Depth / Basic 3 Pt Plays (I WOULD USE THEM ALL/NOT REAL PLAYS THG)
    - Quick 51 Give - 3 Pt.
    - Quick Point - 3 Pt.
    - Quick 5 Out - 3 Pt.
    Cutter Actions I Would Use To Disguise Looks (I WOULD USE THEM ALL/NOT REAL PLAYS THG)
    - Cut 5 Horns Dive - Cutter (Elbow Entry)
    - Quick Elbow Cross - Cutter (Elbow Entry & Mimics CNR 3 Action/Runner)
    - Cut Point - Cutter (21 DHO Action/Options)

    TOTAL PLAYS ADDED BELOW = 42

    PNR - 17 plays
    Handoff - 6 Plays
    Low Post - 4 Plays
    3 Point - 6 Plays
    ISO - 4 Plays
    Guard Post - 1 (Vince Carter)
    Cutter - 4
    High Post - 0 (Need to add 2-4 for My League Purposes - None in Hawks Play Types)
    Mid Range - 0 (Need to add 2-4 for My League Purposes - None in Hawks Play Types)
    As you can see with these play types you are still going to capture how they play as it will be PNR heavy. The Hawks are a lot like the Rockets though and don’t really have the personnel to run specials for. It’s not like they have a J.J. Reddick or a Kyle Korver to run off screens. They have a lot of slashers with Prince, Bazemore, Bembry, Huerter, & Anderson. Lin & Tre Young obviously operating off PNR’s mainly. So, hard to say, but I’d assume why they play the way they do along with the tanking to get Zion. LOL! Play to your strengths though. Watching other teams I am seeing a lot more sets compared to Atlanta thats for sure.
    This is precisely why we need these done though and why what Czar is doing is so great. He is adding realism by adding plays that teams run IRL so we can mimic our favorite teams. This in turn allows the CPU teams to have that SIM feel and we feel as we are playing each team. Teams don’t play like each other anymore. Even in years past when I have done playbooks I had to mimic a lot of things to similar plays, actions, or get players in spots as opposed to having every play their real plays. Thats not to say we didn’t have real plays that were in the game or that I could put in each team’s playbook just not all 50 could be real in what they actually step by step ran IRL. With him adding real plays per team we can get that realism each and every year… Now we just need the same detail to player tendencies to bring out each players individualized real life tendencies to have players playing and performing their real life moves as well.
    El_Poopador
    Why did you find it necessary to use a massive font? It doesn't help get your point across; if anything, it makes it worse.

    If a dev were to for some reason scroll through this thread, he would definitely not miss that, and maybe thats all the poster wanted.
    vannwolfhawk
    Well AROB you were not lying or exaggerating! Well, maybe a little… LOL! The Hawks are not fun to watch as a coach I will say that! SMH! I will also say they do not do my examples earlier any favors. BUT, teams like the Rockets & Hawks are not indicative of how the rest of the league plays for sure. I can see why you thought that they didn’t run much stuff though, because they don’t! HA! They do run quite a few PNR’s & DHO’s into PNR’s though. They definitely don’t run a lot of set plays with multiple options in it let alone any off ball actions REALLY, and they have way too much freedom to improvise imo… I can’t believe how little they run & I have never seen anything like it as far as lack of coaching or structure. Most all their 3’s come from drive & kick as does the Rockets. They must have there eyes on someone in that draft though! LOL! I’d probably not give them more than 35 real plays tops. I’d give 4 mid and 4 high post plays to the playbook just for my league purposes, but those plays wouldn’t apply for this team as no one would have those play types.
    Anyways, I listed a few plays I saw in just watching some highlights of 3 games with searching only made shots in each game. As a user this might not be a playbook that is ideal to use online because of the DHO’s, but thats just the NBA now a days… It became frustrating though because a lot of the play actions I KNOW they had in 2K18 are no longer in 2K19 so I had to mimic and improvise a bit… A few plays they ran (especially some 3 Pt plays & shots from corner on swing & Runner action) I couldn’t even improvise as they are not in either game and we will just need to wait for Czar to update and add them in the game when he does the Hawks update. I will watch some more and get back and add to this list as I go. I just wanted to give you something to start with… Keep in mind I just watched 3 games worth of film here and I haven’t even searched the 3 point plays or off screen stuff yet…
    Atlanta Hawks Plays
    - **Fist 5 Out 6 - PNR
    - **Fist 25 Give - PNR
    - **Fist 5 Out - PNR (Backside Fill)
    - **Fist 35 Swing Quick - PNR Option
    - **Fist 15 Chin Give - PNR
    - **08 Punch 15 Fist - Low Post
    - **Fist 52 Side - PNR Option
    - **Fist Bull Pitch - PNR Option
    - Fist 51 Give 4 Out - PNR Option
    - Punch 5 Horns Fist 2 - Low Post
    - **Fist 15 High - PNR Option
    - **Fist 15 Side - PNR Option
    - Fist 5 Short 4 CNR - PNR Option
    - ISO 1 Quick - ISO
    - Punch 12 Spread - Guard Post
    - Fist 45 Give - PNR Option
    - ISO 1 Spread - ISO
    - Fist 81 Out - PNR 3Pt
    -
    - Run Punch 15 Spread - Low Post - (Low Laker Cut Instead) They run a High Laker Cut but NO Plays to replicate it in 2k19 but had 5 plays like it in 18.
    - Fist 35 Horns X - PNR - (Only play with flip action close enough in 2k19 to mimic the action - 3 Should drive and 5 sprints to weak side corner 3 pt.)
    All 3 of the next plays are Elbow passes and the same idea. They ran this quite a bit. Unfortunately no play in the game for the action but these 3 get as close as possible Within the DHO & 3 Pt. Play types.
    - Give Elbow 43 - DHO (Had to mimic this as well. It is close as Collins receives the elbow pass but Huerter cuts off split action and Tre comes back for DHO instead IRL)
    - Same as above you could get away with Give Horns 42 Away - DHO - to mimic & get variety of action.
    - 90 Quick 2 Give - 3Pt. - As close as you will get for the action listed above again as it was Huerter coming around for the 3 after the elbow and DHO. Difference here is Elbow pass to the 5 man not Collins at the 4.
    - Cut 15 Alley - Cutter
    - ISO 2 Spread - ISO
    - ISO 5 Out 4 - ISO
    - Give Elbow Series - DHO
    - Give 42 Horns - DHO
    - Give Warriors Fist 2 - DHO - Pinch Post (only thing wrong strong corner should be clear.
    - Fist HHD Series - PNR
    - Fist 15 Flat - PNR 3 Pt
    - Punch 45 X - Low Post
    - Quick Veer Fist - 3 Pt.
    - Fist 25 Quick - PNR
    - Give 51 5 Out - DHO
    - Quick 51 Give - 3 Pt.???
    - 98 Punch 25 - Low Post??? - Mimic Triangle Post Entry without the strong side DHO 1st… This also provides the High Laker Cut thru of the other Low Post Action.
    - Quick Wide PIN - 3 Pt.
    Similar Actions But Not The Actual Play
    - 15 Fist 2 Quick - Mid Range
    Possibilities For Plays To Add For Depth / Basic 3 Pt Plays (I WOULD USE THEM ALL)
    - Quick 51 Give - 3 Pt.
    - Quick Point - 3 Pt.
    - Quick 5 Out - 3 Pt.
    Cutter Actions I Would Use To Disguise Looks (I WOULD USE THEM ALL/NOT REAL PLAYS THG)
    - Cut 5 Horns Dive - Cutter (Elbow Entry)
    - Quick Elbow Cross - Cutter (Elbow Entry & Mimics CNR 3 Action/Runner)
    - Cut Point - Cutter (21 DHO Action/Options)

    TOTAL PLAYS ADDED BELOW = 42

    PNR - 17 plays
    Handoff - 6 Plays
    Low Post - 4 Plays
    3 Point - 6 Plays
    ISO - 4 Plays
    Guard Post - 1 (Vince Carter)
    Cutter - 4
    High Post - 0 (Need to add 2-4 for My League Purposes - None in Hawks Play Types)
    Mid Range - 0 (Need to add 2-4 for My League Purposes - None in Hawks Play Types)
    As you can see with these play types you are still going to capture how they play as it will be PNR heavy. The Hawks are a lot like the Rockets though and don’t really have the personnel to run specials for. It’s not like they have a J.J. Reddick or a Kyle Korver to run off screens. They have a lot of slashers with Prince, Bazemore, Bembry, Huerter, & Anderson. Lin & Tre Young obviously operating off PNR’s mainly. So, hard to say, but I’d assume why they play the way they do along with the tanking to get Zion. LOL! Play to your strengths though. Watching other teams I am seeing a lot more sets compared to Atlanta thats for sure.
    This is precisely why we need these done though and why what Czar is doing is so great. He is adding realism by adding plays that teams run IRL so we can mimic our favorite teams. This in turn allows the CPU teams to have that SIM feel and we feel as we are playing each team. Teams don’t play like each other anymore. Even in years past when I have done playbooks I had to mimic a lot of things to similar plays, actions, or get players in spots as opposed to having every play their real plays. Thats not to say we didn’t have real plays that were in the game or that I could put in each team’s playbook just not all 50 could be real in what they actually step by step ran IRL. With him adding real plays per team we can get that realism each and every year… Now we just need the same detail to player tendencies to bring out each players individualized real life tendencies to have players playing and performing their real life moves as well.

    I will say 10 of these plays they dont run, and another 10 are the same play with different players. However, i will look at the specific plays and let you know. I know for a fack they dont run that hhd series or that cutter play. I also have not seen 1 post play all season. All of the post action i have seen is freelance. Finally, adding mid range plays is laughable. Look at their shot chart. 3s and paint. They arent running mid range plays.
    alabamarob
    I will say 10 of these plays they dont run, and another 10 are the same play with different players. However, i will look at the specific plays and let you know. I know for a fack they dont run that hhd series or that cutter play. I also have not seen 1 post play all season. All of the post action i have seen is freelance. Finally, adding mid range plays is laughable. Look at their shot chart. 3s and paint. They arent running mid range plays.

    Lol! I don’t think you read through my lengthy posts. I’ll say it early so you don’t miss it. Mid range and high post plays in this scenario within a playbook is for my league players who play fantasy leagues. You have to account for that when doing playbooks. This isn’t a playbook for 1 type of player it’s for the masses and all modes. You have to think outside the box and factoring in everyone who buys the game. The mid range I posted I just listed because they ran the shooter coming off the screen from the block to the corner. I wasn’t saying use that I was just referencing we needed that action in. The play they ran a lot was actually Tre passes to elbow go’s to screen away for prince, prince rejects and just runs through the paint. Then Tre curls back and gets DHO or pitchback from Elbow guy then prince comes off the screen on block to corner for corner 3. They ran it to Huerter as well. The mid play IF you go look at it shows the end result. You can only mimic certain things if they don’t exist in game. Bring that up to czar not me. Lol I didn’t have any mid range plays listed to use. Just said put in for my league longevity. Nothing else. Plus the Hawks would never run mid range play because no one has the play type. You don’t assign it to them. So it’s like those plays aren’t there. Only for my league guys. Make sense?
    2nd the actions they ran the most are not even in the game. I’d say about 8-10 plays that were in 18 or were actions I knew I needed to find don’t exist in 19. A perfect example is Fist 52 side. The Hawks run that play EXCEPT it starts from Tre passing to the 2 then the pnr comes. But that doesn’t exist in 19 with the same set up or with screen happening wing to side. I could mimic it from wing to top key but they didn’t run that. Lol! The 3 plays that are the same (similar), but different people is the DHO into pnr which they ran the most of. Seeing they ran that a ton to see it more vs CPU you add it more. I think partially you are confusing a user vs user playbook and creating a playbook for the cpu and to have the AI running plays like they do irl. Obviously as a user you have that 1 play and don’t need 3. Look at a few of Czar books there is 2 of same play (same play name) too. I can’t duplicate a play though like devs can. Only put similar one in.
    The cutter plays were to get those actions as far as players getting scores of cuts. You could for sure eliminate and I posted in the post that they DIDN’T run them BUT I would add them BECAUSE they can act as a counter (elbow feed, etc) to plays they do run. They ran simple pin downs. Every pnr and handoff they ran a few times (only watched 3 games of film).
    As far as post ups go, I saw a few high low feeds. They ran horns looks too. The 08 15 Fist they absolutely ran. They might not look for post feed in set plays, but they do hit it and if you don’t account for it they will never do it in game which they clearly do in game. They ran a few punch plays into a high laker cut. I watched it but hey you know your team would never do it! Lol! Like I said in previous posts if it’s in their playbook add it. Do you really think the hawks have 0 post plays in their playbook? That when you play them and vs cpu you want them to never pass to post? Not to mention AGAIN That even if they don’t run any you still HAVE to account for it for my league players.
    You must think I’m just making it up for fun, I’m an idiot and havnt scouted 3 years of college basketball, or you are just missing the point of my previous posts of the reasoning behind the why do something, Or maybe you just want to argue with me. Lol
    The Fist HHD they do start in horns and 1 guy pops up to set pick while the other spreads. The way Hawks ran it though was Len sprinted to opposite corner. It used to be in 18 but I couldn’t find it so the closest I could get from their pre set horns look they run was the HD’s play. Again try and get as close as we can without having their real plays in the game.
    Like I said In the very last paragraph was numerous actions are not represented in the game so I had to improvise until we get them and czar gets to them and adds them in. They had about 10 things that don’t exist in game. Let Czar release his plays for hawks and you can see them. So by your account the Hawks should have 10 plays total in their playbook and if it’s anymore it’s wrong? Lol!
    But here is an alternative option as well, you can always just keep the fake hawks playbook too that doesn’t replicate real life at all! Lol! I choose to try and make the best of what game gives us and replicate the best we can. If we had real hawks plays in like I described above then I’d 1000% switch them out with the look a likes!
    But bottom line is the Hawks flat out suck and you can see why. You were right they don’t run much. But that’s not the norm for 28/30 teams.
    Disregard my last post AROB. I re-read my post again to see if I didn’t explain myself properly in my original post. Then I realized no way did you read it as I clearly stated my reasoning of everything & then I realized that you just went directly to look at the plays. Lol! That’s what I get for long lengthy drawn out posts and for biting on your trolling. I get skimmers skimming my posts... ha
    Shall we stick to the plays the teams run irl this year?
    Having too many good to have plays really confuses me when I try to relate them to the team.
    I just want to add on that running the plays the teams run irl gives me a sense of realism and some sort of association to the team. And it also motivated me watching a complete nba game (I'm not into nba score betting so yeah, pure sports enjoyment) without dozing off halfway through. Frankly, I care less about the other game modes. I also hope we are not turning this thread into sort of 'money play thread' as I believe there are tons in youtube.
    And lets add some short video clips to enhance the learning experience of the depth of the plays.
    I'll start off with this, one of the Lemarcus post plays left out from the earlier 2K playbook update but still ran infrequently irl this year.
    '94 PUNCH WHEEL (post up low)
    https://youtu.be/-LMP4oZ2hRI
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    JoFri
    Shall we stick to the plays the teams run irl this year?
    Having too many good to have plays really confuses me when I try to relate them to the team.
    I just want to add on that running the plays the teams run irl gives me a sense of realism and some sort of association to the team. And it also motivated me watching a complete nba game (I'm not into nba score betting so yeah, pure sports enjoyment) without dozing off halfway through. Frankly, I care less about the other game modes. I also hope we are not turning this thread into sort of 'money play thread' as I believe there are tons in youtube.
    And lets add some short video clips to enhance the learning experience of the depth of the plays.
    I'll start off with this, one of the Lemarcus post plays left out from the earlier 2K playbook update but still ran infrequently irl this year.
    '94 PUNCH WHEEL (post up low)
    https://youtu.be/-LMP4oZ2hRI
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Definitely not a money play thread. Good idea of posting a video with the action and the 2k play name! Make sure to post that in the roster forum playbook thread too so we can keep track of them there and they don’t get lost... good stuff!
    I loved this thread. That's for sure. Thanks for all who contributed starting with Dirk, Vann and all. :y220e:
    From everything that i read above, yes there are issues on myleague/gm/career longevity. I think that coaches and players have to have a sort of playbook mechanic; an ai to really colloborate a some kind of a data on their own to create better playbook on their own and assign to the personel they have as myleague/gm/career and every other mode progress. Well yea i know this is crazy and as big as it can be like a new game a Football Manager ai adaptation, coach, personnel and team plans etc. It's hard i know. :)
    On the other hand though "plays" are essentially one of the oldest tech 2k has created before freelance and before series so i believe the nba 2k future holds more than what we got as of now more than this traditional and fairly old implementation this very standart play call or playbook as a tech so i believe there should/would be some core changes the way of all things are collaborated and assigned to personnel. So i believe we'll have a wider horizon as the 2k series progressed on these playbooks.(That paragraph is future oriented thinking.)
    I'm talking very unorganized here, sorry. As far as how many plays in a playbook a team must have; i also think that the less is the better. Because other than plays we have Freelance, Series in our service whenever we like and also AI has that,too. (Though i play with 40+ plays in my playbook yet i know a lot of others who only use 15 to 25) So it makes a huge variety with plays and all that and very robust choices we can make, we're spoiled here in a way but they are very cluttered and unorganized(Just like my post here.). And also yes we can talk about how the series is implemented which seems not really controllable within a series you can't control plays; yet i think we'll see it improved as the years go. Freelance came up big, ended up not so big but freelance has made its own place as it should on the court after all trial; so we'll see how series will develop as ai improves and tech will offer some more control i'm sure.
    If in the future we keep having plays/series/freelance all together what is crucial is a better gameplan scheme we will have to be offered; It's been years for freelance yet we can't assign in our gameplans in MyLeague/GM Offline/Online etc. so it should be designed first in gameplans from league menus. Also it should be organized in a way that we can reach them in game or in menus with a better organization and flow to each other. For now Freelances are in one place, series on another and plays on another, i feel cluttered, it should be better organized and presented to gamers. For now it's like they are hidden and spread around gems that we should find out, you know not for me but most.
    ataman5
    I loved this thread. That's for sure. Thanks for all who contributed starting with Dirk, Vann and all. :y220e:
    From everything that i read above, yes there are issues on myleague/gm/career longevity. I think that coaches and players have to have a sort of playbook mechanic; an ai to really colloborate a some kind of a data on their own to create better playbook on their own and assign to the personel they have as myleague/gm/career and every other mode progress. Well yea i know this is crazy and as big as it can be like a new game a Football Manager ai adaptation, coach, personnel and team plans etc. It's hard i know. :)
    On the other hand though "plays" are essentially one of the oldest tech 2k has created before freelance and before series so i believe the nba 2k future holds more than what we got as of now more than this traditional and fairly old implementation this very standart play call or playbook as a tech so i believe there should/would be some core changes the way of all things are collaborated and assigned to personnel. So i believe we'll have a wider horizon as the 2k series progressed on these playbooks.(That paragraph is future oriented thinking.)
    I'm talking very unorganized here, sorry. As far as how many plays in a playbook a team must have; i also think that the less is the better. Because other than plays we have Freelance, Series in our service whenever we like and also AI has that,too. (Though i play with 40+ plays in my playbook yet i know a lot of others who only use 15 to 25) So it makes a huge variety with plays and all that and very robust choices we can make, we're spoiled here in a way but they are very cluttered and unorganized(Just like my post here.). And also yes we can talk about how the series is implemented which seems not really controllable within a series you can't control plays; yet i think we'll see it improved as the years go. Freelance came up big, ended up not so big but we'll see how series will develop as ai improves and tech will offer some more control i'm sure.
    If in the future we keep having plays/series/freelance all together what is crucial is a better gameplan scheme we will have to be offered; It's been years for freelance yet we can't assign in our gameplans in MyLeague/GM Offline/Online etc. so it should be designed first in gameplans from league menus. Also it should organized in a way that we can reach them in game or in menus with a better organization. For now Freelances are in one place, series on another and plays on another, i feel cluttered, it should be better organized and presented to gamers. For now it's like they are hidden and spread around gems that we should find out, you know not for me but most.

    I think there is a disconnect as far as who playbooks are created for. Yes, we all want real plays, teams to play as they do, but we have to factor in all modes. I don’t play fantasy my leagues, but I still edit playbooks for the guys who do so they can use them the way they want. That doesn’t mean you can’t have teams play as themselves. That’s what play types is for.
    Also, the whole reason why I think playbooks are used for is to yes mimic how your team plays irl if you so choose, but more importantly is how the CPU uses the plays. That’s whats great about czar adding series within plays. When playing cpu if you have playbook with 5 elbow pass plays for cpu with all different actions after the elbow pass it keeps you on your toes as a user. Almost like playing a human. It’s manipulating the AI while providing us with real actions. I’ve wanted the madden star system for years but realize no way that’s happening anytime soon! Lol! The reason I want it is to control how often the CPU calls 1 play over another. It’s an art and chore to get the CPU to play like a human and like their real team. It starts with testing and when doing playbooks thinking about the masses and thinking as a coach having counters in the playbooks so you don’t know what’s coming. If I had 20 plays per team and you are playing the game all year long believe me you will see an action and know what’s coming before it happens. I’ve had 50 plays and have had that problem when playing some teams over and over all year. It’s why testing and making sure plays work and don’t break is crucial as well as adding different looks out of same set within the playbook is huge as well. Like I said it’s an art. But there are a million ways to go about creating a playbook too.
    Anyways, going back to your point that I’d also agree with as far as clutter and/or being unorganized as well as how we don’t have control over things. It would be great to have the ability to switch freelance and series within rosters. I also think it would be great to have a slider (credit to ffaacc03) to set teams apart In differentiating how much they run this or that. Here is an example below...
    Run freelance - 20
    Run series - 25
    Run Set Plays - 55
    Setting that per team to control what we are getting per team. I don’t 1 of any of those areas shoved down my throat. For example when I 1st played the cpu, because of the glitch with cpu not running any plays from within their playbooks unless using the workaround I saw the same series all game long and it got old. Having a slider for this would be great. The other reason allowing us the ability to edit a teams freelance and series in roster is coaches get fired through the year, players traded, teams and coaches add things as the year go’s on or try new things. We shouldn’t have to wait til the next 2k to have something fixed that would take 2 seconds for us to do ourselves.
    I also think having the ability to switch the freelances and series easily during timeouts (can we now?) is good. Add to the list adding Help defense slider in the roster is also needed... the CPU plays a completely different game when help defense set above 50. Let us change that in rosters. now I’m rambling! Lol I’m a fan of plays with branches to just like the series. These are huge especially when assigning for the CPU. Again, everything I talk about here and other places is all about controlling the AI of cpu teams. Manipulating the CPU. This is why testing plays is monsterous for immersion! Finding all the best executed actions that the CPU can execute at a high level every time means you get a better game. This makes playing the cpu like playing a human. When these things are overlooked you get weird things that happen or take you out of immersion. We talk about them because they are preventable and the offline gamers who use custom rosters with playbooks and tendencies edited and tested get it. We have tested it and seen the differences these things make. We are trying to just assure that everyone gets to experience that including ourselves in the game we get OUT OF THE BOX.
    Lastly and back to plays briefly and to the clutter point. I totally get there is no need for 50 plays in a playbook. I’m in the minority in wanting 50 and wanting as real of playbooks as we can get. But Like you said Ataman a lot use 15 or less and I’d say 50% of 2k players never even call a play besides a quick play or best play. Plus when you have 50 the playbook does get cluttered especially to the casual player. I don’t need 50 I can fill in what they don’t. No big deal to me. As long as we get real actions in the game and the plays added work as intended and are not broken I’m happy.
    I’m excited for the future and direction Czar is taking us with the series and real teams plays. It’s definitely a step in the right direction! But giving us some control would really be helpful moving forward with freelances, series, and plays.
    WOW, they made the playbooks match real life, and only 3 months after release? Amazing, I applaud the lazy bastards for doing something so late into the release of a full priced game when the community already fixed most of it on its own.
    Seriously, what are these articles for? Praise 2k for doing something that should be in the game anyways? Until they fix their laughable tendencies and legacy issues they cannot be regarded as “simulation basketball”.
    vannwolfhawk
    Lol! I don’t think you read through my lengthy posts. I’ll say it early so you don’t miss it. Mid range and high post plays in this scenario within a playbook is for my league players who play fantasy leagues. You have to account for that when doing playbooks. This isn’t a playbook for 1 type of player it’s for the masses and all modes. You have to think outside the box and factoring in everyone who buys the game. The mid range I posted I just listed because they ran the shooter coming off the screen from the block to the corner. I wasn’t saying use that I was just referencing we needed that action in. The play they ran a lot was actually Tre passes to elbow go’s to screen away for prince, prince rejects and just runs through the paint. Then Tre curls back and gets DHO or pitchback from Elbow guy then prince comes off the screen on block to corner for corner 3. They ran it to Huerter as well. The mid play IF you go look at it shows the end result. You can only mimic certain things if they don’t exist in game. Bring that up to czar not me. Lol I didn’t have any mid range plays listed to use. Just said put in for my league longevity. Nothing else. Plus the Hawks would never run mid range play because no one has the play type. You don’t assign it to them. So it’s like those plays aren’t there. Only for my league guys. Make sense?
    2nd the actions they ran the most are not even in the game. I’d say about 8-10 plays that were in 18 or were actions I knew I needed to find don’t exist in 19. A perfect example is Fist 52 side. The Hawks run that play EXCEPT it starts from Tre passing to the 2 then the pnr comes. But that doesn’t exist in 19 with the same set up or with screen happening wing to side. I could mimic it from wing to top key but they didn’t run that. Lol! The 3 plays that are the same (similar), but different people is the DHO into pnr which they ran the most of. Seeing they ran that a ton to see it more vs CPU you add it more. I think partially you are confusing a user vs user playbook and creating a playbook for the cpu and to have the AI running plays like they do irl. Obviously as a user you have that 1 play and don’t need 3. Look at a few of Czar books there is 2 of same play (same play name) too. I can’t duplicate a play though like devs can. Only put similar one in.
    The cutter plays were to get those actions as far as players getting scores of cuts. You could for sure eliminate and I posted in the post that they DIDN’T run them BUT I would add them BECAUSE they can act as a counter (elbow feed, etc) to plays they do run. They ran simple pin downs. Every pnr and handoff they ran a few times (only watched 3 games of film).
    As far as post ups go, I saw a few high low feeds. They ran horns looks too. The 08 15 Fist they absolutely ran. They might not look for post feed in set plays, but they do hit it and if you don’t account for it they will never do it in game which they clearly do in game. They ran a few punch plays into a high laker cut. I watched it but hey you know your team would never do it! Lol! Like I said in previous posts if it’s in their playbook add it. Do you really think the hawks have 0 post plays in their playbook? That when you play them and vs cpu you want them to never pass to post? Not to mention AGAIN That even if they don’t run any you still HAVE to account for it for my league players.
    You must think I’m just making it up for fun, I’m an idiot and havnt scouted 3 years of college basketball, or you are just missing the point of my previous posts of the reasoning behind the why do something, Or maybe you just want to argue with me. Lol
    The Fist HHD they do start in horns and 1 guy pops up to set pick while the other spreads. The way Hawks ran it though was Len sprinted to opposite corner. It used to be in 18 but I couldn’t find it so the closest I could get from their pre set horns look they run was the HD’s play. Again try and get as close as we can without having their real plays in the game.
    Like I said In the very last paragraph was numerous actions are not represented in the game so I had to improvise until we get them and czar gets to them and adds them in. They had about 10 things that don’t exist in game. Let Czar release his plays for hawks and you can see them. So by your account the Hawks should have 10 plays total in their playbook and if it’s anymore it’s wrong? Lol!
    But here is an alternative option as well, you can always just keep the fake hawks playbook too that doesn’t replicate real life at all! Lol! I choose to try and make the best of what game gives us and replicate the best we can. If we had real hawks plays in like I described above then I’d 1000% switch them out with the look a likes!
    But bottom line is the Hawks flat out suck and you can see why. You were right they don’t run much. But that’s not the norm for 28/30 teams.

    I agree with that. Most of the plays that they run irl the opposite big is in the corner as opposed to the block. All of the swing plays they run are that way irl. Thus i couldnt find 1 swing play that fit. There is also a corner 3 play they run for Prince I cant find on 2k. That 15 chin. Quick 43 series 4. Elbow Series 1. Fist give 35. Fist 14 series 2. Fist 35 horns x. Give 53 horns quick. give delay. Quick point 2. Fist 25 give. Fizt 5 out 6. Fist 51 give 4 out. They run all those.
    Fyi i read your entire post. I just couldnt address the off topic comments you made. Haha.
    Fist 5 out. I dont remember them running a set with Len or Dedmon starting catching the ball reversal from the 4 beyond the 3 and ending with a 81 screen. When did they run this?
    Fist 35 quick swing. Yep. Playart diff then how play runs. So you are correct.
    08 punch must be new. Its not in mylg playbook.
    Fist 52 side. When did they run this? Young rarely comes down and stands above the breK with no movement.
    Fist bull pitch. Never seen them run a play with the opposite big on the box and the wing standing behind him. This is horrible spacing. We always give players their own corner.
    Punch 5 horns fist 2. Hmmmmmm. May have seen this 1 time in preseason for Collins. They def didnt run this for anyone other then him and he only been back for 6 games. Cant say i have seen this 1 time this reg season.
    Fist 45 give. Opposite big in wrong place.
    The iso plays may have been called 2 times all year. 1 time being last play vs lakers.
    Fist 81 out. Prince may have screened and popped out 1 or 2 times all year.
    All those 15s except the high you are correct.
    You did a good job.
    On second take they run Fist 25 give but not Fist 5 out 6. Haha. You trying to be slick Vann. They dont have the 4 and the wing switch during th pnr. They stay static like in Fist 25.
    Now after going thru your list I have changed 33 percent of my playbook. Ha. You have shown me the light.
    alabamarob
    On second take they run Fist 25 give but not Fist 5 out 6. Haha. You trying to be slick Vann. They dont have the 4 and the wing switch during th pnr. They stay static like in Fist 25.

    I prefer Fist 25 Give to Fist 5Out 6 for how the play develops. The ball screen action on the wing vs the ball handler going over to top of the key is also different. The reset action is better for branching into freelance.
    Both are great play designs. I might put both in playbooks for some teams to show different looks.
    I'll address a few things in bold below...
    alabamarob
    I agree with that. Most of the plays that they run irl the opposite big is in the corner as opposed to the block. All of the swing plays they run are that way irl. Thus i couldnt find 1 swing play that fit. There is also a corner 3 play they run for Prince I cant find on 2k. That 15 chin. Quick 43 series 4. Elbow Series 1. Fist give 35. Fist 14 series 2. Fist 35 horns x. Give 53 horns quick. give delay. Quick point 2. Fist 25 give. Fizt 5 out 6. Fist 51 give 4 out. They run all those.
    Yes, the swing plays was a problem and those were a few of the plays we had in 18 but don't in 19. For example I believe in 18 it was Fist Swing 34 that we are looking for but it's not in 19 unfortunately. Also, that 3 play you are referring too in the corner is I believe the same play I was talking about with elbow feed no? Or what I was referring to with that mid range play just to look at with him coming off the screen on the block like runner action to the corner 3. Last year a couple of the mid range plays actually resulted in a 3 not a mid range shot so it’s worth looking at them if anything for the end result. But I did the same thing and searched and searched and couldn’t find anything like it in the game unfortunately...
    Fyi i read your entire post. I just couldnt address the off topic comments you made. Haha.
    Skimmer LOL
    Fist 5 out. I dont remember them running a set with Len or Dedmon starting catching the ball reversal from the 4 beyond the 3 and ending with a 81 screen. When did they run this?
    Is that how it ended? Don't recall I might have put wrong play there? I'll look again...
    Fist 35 quick swing. Yep. Playart diff then how play runs. So you are correct.
    08 punch must be new. Its not in mylg playbook.
    That play was in 2k18. Its simple PNR & Replace that happens to go to a high low as 2nd option but the best part of the play is alot of times you get a wide open 3 from the stretch. The high low after is what I saw numerous times. Colins was really good at getting deep and ducking in. I'll touch on this again on another post.
    Fist 52 side. When did they run this? Young rarely comes down and stands above the breK with no movement.
    I'll try and find video of it to link. Like I said the play isn't exact as Tre made the pass to initiate it but the end result and spread floor was what we wanted.
    Fist bull pitch. Never seen them run a play with the opposite big on the box and the wing standing behind him. This is horrible spacing. We always give players their own corner.
    This play was about the action not the spacing. CPU executes it well too which is extremely important with all these as well...
    Punch 5 horns fist 2. Hmmmmmm. May have seen this 1 time in preseason for Collins. They def didnt run this for anyone other then him and he only been back for 6 games. Cant say i have seen this 1 time this reg season.
    This is in for a few reasons. You are correct like I said earlier Collins does a great job ducking in and getting deep position. Usually that is early in transition. The Hawks run Horns looks though throughout a game. 50/50 on it being a screen or Elbow Pass to initiate. Lastly they had quite a few high lows they ran which you get from this. Along with great spacing. So, even though not 100% real play I can simulate 3 things the Hawks do do within it. Make sense? Like I said if we had better plays or real plays in the game I can switch plays like this...
    Fist 45 give. Opposite big in wrong place.
    This is play that is right but just don't have players in right spot. Thats greedy and being picky. LOL
    The iso plays may have been called 2 times all year. 1 time being last play vs lakers.
    The ISO plays need to be in because the Hawks just go man. LOL! Thats why with the ISO's I didnt put them in 14 flat, etc and all ISO's are in where they were attacking from within frame of offense. No ISO's where it's clear because I never saw that.
    Fist 81 out. Prince may have screened and popped out 1 or 2 times all year.
    This action was actually with Vince Carter and I saw it a good 4-5x... The Guard Post they ran to him as well. This isn't meant for Prince.
    All those 15s except the high you are correct.
    No, they ran the 15 high a few times. Tre attacking downhill. You could get away with just 1 though. 2 was overboard for sure.
    You did a good job.
    Thanks! LOL! I am curious to see your playbook now seeing that you are a stickler to what the Hawks run and players being in right spots. Not to mention seeing you only took 33% of my plays. LOL! I want to see the other 66%!
    Now keep in mind I was just giving you something to start with and only watched 3 games worth of film too. I only spent afew hours on it. Your turn...
    HA

    I don't know if you read a different post where I talked about this, but it's all about the CPU and manipulating the AI & getting the CPU to get as close as we can to real life. A million different ways you can go about this and it's all how each person really wants to create their playbooks. How do you want the CPU to play vs you. Do you want a mixture of things that all look similar like a series with 50 full plays to keep you on your toes? Or do you want 20 plays and you see something you know whats coming? The best way to describe this is to think Elbow pass. If you only have 1 elbow pass in the Hawks playbook and only 1 action and factor in playing the game for 12 months all year long. Every time you play the Hawks it becomes stale vs the CPU because you know whats coming every time they pass it to the elbow. I want to be kept guessing thinking I know what’s coming then I get hit with something else. That’s the things that really keep you immersed in a game. If you put 4-5 plays out of Horns or with a Elbow Entry then that is when you start to feel like you are on your toes & it becomes like playing another human. This is really what adding series was all about. Same thing go's for getting plays in teams playbook that are as close to the real plays we can UNTIL we can get the real ones in there...
    alabamarob
    On second take they run Fist 25 give but not Fist 5 out 6. Haha. You trying to be slick Vann. They dont have the 4 and the wing switch during th pnr. They stay static like in Fist 25.
    Now after going thru your list I have changed 33 percent of my playbook. Ha. You have shown me the light.

    33%? :y11:
    Thats it I need to see your book now! LOL! Like I said, you have to be creative until we get the real plays. It's all we can do. If it doesn't exist in game then what? Just don't add it or improvise? Again, this is why Czar doing this is HUGE and AWESOME! If you go look at the 7 teams he did there are some diamonds and real actions in there! It's one reason I am not even going to bother doing playbooks until AFTER he releases all 30 teams. Just like this scenario it's tough to replicate things. With a team like Hawks you really have to get creative though because they didnt even run a simple double stagger. I have never seen something so vanilla. Lloyd is only there for the rebuild and won't last I promise you! LOL
    youALREADYknow
    I prefer Fist 25 Give to Fist 5Out 6 for how the play develops. The ball screen action on the wing vs the ball handler going over to top of the key is also different. The reset action is better for branching into freelance.
    Both are great play designs. I might put both in playbooks for some teams to show different looks.

    YAK, hopefully you chime in here on the importance of testing plays and the impact plays have to CPU AI execution to create sim experience. It can’t just be me and I know we think alike on this. They need to hear it. You & I hang out on roster forums where most get it and understand it there but main forum there are a lot of people who don’t. Might be good to state your stance as you know this game inside and out and do great work and you are very thorough in testing. Great advocate and voice in this area. Hopefully you can chime in...
    vannwolfhawk
    33%? :y11:
    Thats it I need to see your book now! LOL! Like I said, you have to be creative until we get the real plays. It's all we can do. If it doesn't exist in game then what? Just don't add it or improvise? Again, this is why Czar doing this is HUGE and AWESOME! If you go look at the 7 teams he did there are some diamonds and real actions in there! It's one reason I am not even going to bother doing playbooks until AFTER he releases all 30 teams. Just like this scenario it's tough to replicate things. With a team like Hawks you really have to get creative though because they didnt even run a simple double stagger. I have never seen something so vanilla. Lloyd is only there for the rebuild and won't last I promise you! LOL

    I think Pierce is legit. Next year he will start shining. Wordplay is 20 plays with 30 options, as opposed to 30 plays. Ha
    vannwolfhawk
    I’ll list the plays to keep per team at some point. Just organizing as I go. Star rating them and organizing actions.

    Very much looking forward to this.
    I'm a weirdo who only plays MyTeam but who likes to dig deep into Playbooks and mostly run Plays/Freelances/Series.
    Was exploring the new stuff in the Knicks Playbook last night and really dug at least the Fist 21 Delay (B) play. The play tuning seems to have benefitted handoffs greatly, in general. I'm looking forward to going through the other Fist 21 Delay series plays in the Playbook and then going through the Delay Series and/or Freelance.
    harryl
    Very much looking forward to this.
    I'm a weirdo who only plays MyTeam but who likes to dig deep into Playbooks and mostly run Plays/Freelances/Series.
    Was exploring the new stuff in the Knicks Playbook last night and really dug at least the Fist 21 Delay (B) play. The play tuning seems to have benefitted handoffs greatly, in general. I'm looking forward to going through the other Fist 21 Delay series plays in the Playbook and then going through the Delay Series and/or Freelance.

    Keep in mind I won’t even use plays that both the user and cpu can’t execute. A user can execute most all plays in the game with no issues. The cpu is a different story though.
    Czar put out a video today and made some fixes so if he’s still fixing things no point for me to put list yet. For example I went back through all of Raptors plays again and tested. I’d use 18 of the 37 now. I Had 9 before. He fixed all the Raptor (name of play) plays. I missed dho’s On my 1st go around too.
    I assumed he’d have had them tested and working pre putting them into the game 1st and I didn’t realize he is/was going to fix them after putting them in the game. It Hasn’t been that way the last few years or ever. Lol
    vannwolfhawk
    Keep in mind I won’t even use plays that both the user and cpu can’t execute. A user can execute most all plays in the game with no issues. The cpu is a different story though.

    Thanks for the clarification. I would imagine that your list of plays that CPU can run well "on its own," would still be meaningful to me (and others) because these would be plays for which the tuning of CPU off-ball action is optimized. I.e. especially effective off-ball screening for shooters.
    But that raises the question: what differentiates between a human player's ability to execute a play, and the the CPU's ability?
    Are you referring to plays in which, say, there is action by the ballhandler that is required to be "good," and if, say, a ballhandler does not use a screen properly, the play doesn't get executed well?
    If a play gets initiated by a simple pass, for example, CPU should be able to "execute the play" as well as a human player, no?
    I'll check out what Da Czar uploaded most recently.
    I'm trying to embark on the headache of "charting" plays in verbal, written form. So that I have notes on the various branches. I try to not just describe the actions for myself, for reference, but also call out "features" of plays that are novel, such as the "final" pass to an intended target shooter coming from a big, instead of a PG/guard/wing. So that I can take advantage of stuff like, say, running Jokic or Sabonis and wanting to put him in position to make frequent user of HoF Dimer.
    Or note which plays/branches create 3pt looks for players based simply on their position and who the playcaller/target is, so that I can have "3pt plays" for players who don't have the 3pt Play Type. (In MyTeam, we cannot customize a player's play selection/type.)
    The headache is especially big with these revised playbooks, because I'll need to list out all the play names first. For what came default in the game, I have an Excel and PDF file from another obsessive maniac who posted his transription work on the Reddit sub (this year and also 2K18).
    And that is a testament of how valuable Da_Czar connection with our community is ...
    In the 1st place it is a tremendous added value for us to have him and the devs work on updating teams playbooks and adding real plays after the season started as some of us have already stated before (thus maybe not as loud as we should), this should no be understated.
    2nd, to fix the plays that need fixes in such a short time is even more reason to be grateful.
    Let’s focus for a moment about what we are getting than about what it was and than about what it is supposed to be, as a way to fully let him and VC/2K know how much we appreciate what they are doing for us all.
    We SHOULD KEEP highlighting/comunicating the things/plays that need to be looked at or addressed, as much and detail as we can, but more importantly, we need to STRESS the HUGE, UNFORSEEN GREATNESS that we are receiving, even more than we have had done before. The future is brighter with the direction that they are taking but we should never let the future or what needs to be improved on overshadow the present, let us never take for granted what we are receiving, even if we are paying for their product.
    Here is a HUGE THANKS to Mr. President and to all the Devs and staff that has granted us not only hopes of an even better future but that have already granted us an improved experience ... we have been teased, so looking forward to seeing more.
    harryl
    Thanks for the clarification. I would imagine that your list of plays that CPU can run well "on its own," would still be meaningful to me (and others) because these would be plays for which the tuning of CPU off-ball action is optimized. I.e. especially effective off-ball screening for shooters.
    But that raises the question: what differentiates between a human player's ability to execute a play, and the the CPU's ability?
    Are you referring to plays in which, say, there is action by the ballhandler that is required to be "good," and if, say, a ballhandler does not use a screen properly, the play doesn't get executed well?
    If a play gets initiated by a simple pass, for example, CPU should be able to "execute the play" as well as a human player, no?
    I'll check out what Da Czar uploaded most recently.
    I'm trying to embark on the headache of "charting" plays in verbal, written form. So that I have notes on the various branches. I try to not just describe the actions for myself, for reference, but also call out "features" of plays that are novel, such as the "final" pass to an intended target shooter coming from a big, instead of a PG/guard/wing. So that I can take advantage of stuff like, say, running Jokic or Sabonis and wanting to put him in position to make frequent user of HoF Dimer.
    Or note which plays/branches create 3pt looks for players based simply on their position and who the playcaller/target is, so that I can have "3pt plays" for players who don't have the 3pt Play Type. (In MyTeam, we cannot customize a player's play selection/type.)
    The headache is especially big with these revised playbooks, because I'll need to list out all the play names first. For what came default in the game, I have an Excel and PDF file from another obsessive maniac who posted his transription work on the Reddit sub (this year and also 2K18).

    Awesome! You and me would get along great! Haha! Yes, that’s the idea have the CPU executing at a human level. Check my thread from last year out here at:
    https://forums.operationsports.com/forums/nba-2k-basketball-rosters/917653-nba-2k18-real-synergy-scouted-team-specific-playbooks-complete.html
    If you look at the spoilers it explains info about the project as well as what you are talking about doing with categorizing each action, play, etc. this was from 2k18 and listed on my lists were ONLY plays the cpu would execute well. I’ve done this since 2k12. It’s a 500-1000 hour project easy with the testing, documenting, & scouting but the end result is worth it.
    I went in more detail in that thread, but I’ll give a quick synopsis with testing plays. Go into Run plays mode. I’ll go play type by play type and assign plays to a custom playbook. So I’ll put 50 cutter plays in the playbook and then assign it to a team. Then I’ll go in and go play by play. Select a play then hit demo. Watch the play over and over (10-20x). I’ll rate the play, action, spacing, is it fast or slow in developing in action, how often does the play break or how often does it succeed, and then categorize it. I will then test as a user as well. That’s how I decide what’s good and not. I use all the above. Some plays don’t initiate or start. Some pnr’s have bad roll angles by roller. Some plays have 3 guys in small areas with bad spacing, some plays the timing windows are off. Some plays a screener misses a pick and sets on air. Some plays there are delays from 1 action to the next. Some plays have players criss crossing in front of the main action and causing chaos.
    Once you have tested and documented every play it’s easy to watch a game, see an action, and grab it and put it in their playbook. It’s just knowing what you want and what your looking for.
    All these things are crucial in having the CPU and AI playing well. It’s night and day with how the CPU executes. 1 thing I forgot to add that is a huge importance is adding as many plays as possible with branches and multiple options in it. This way the CPU doesn’t break down. Even a simple play as a simple pin down with a pnr option behind it. I’ll use that as opposed to the simple pin down with nothing after the pass is made.
    I did the same thing as you are talking to get guys like Jokic and A. Sabonis playing as they do through plays. Same thing with 3 pt. Plays without the 3pt play type. A good example of this is 08 punch 15 Fist. I think is name? It was in 18 and is in 19 as well. It’s a simple roll and replace play, but the stretch 4 will end up with a 3 quite often but the 3rd option after the pnr, throwback to stretch 4, is the high low look.
    Hope all that made sense and helps with your project!
    vannwolfhawk
    YAK, hopefully you chime in here on the importance of testing plays and the impact plays have to CPU AI execution to create sim experience. It can’t just be me and I know we think alike on this. They need to hear it. You & I hang out on roster forums where most get it and understand it there but main forum there are a lot of people who don’t. Might be good to state your stance as you know this game inside and out and do great work and you are very thorough in testing. Great advocate and voice in this area. Hopefully you can chime in...

    I’ve touched on it in the SIMNATION thread, but this game suffered through 3 months of almost unplayable sim basketball because ACE wasn’t customizable this year. We need the ability to configure Series, Freelance, and Set Plays at the Coach level in the Roster. Even with the great new plays added to Playbooks, it was actually some of the ACE player specific and team specific changes that had the larger impact over the past few weeks in my opinion. AI teams were just cycling through Series and Iso before these updates regardless of what was in the playbook. The ability to update these systems without game patches is a gift for the community. I just feel bad for Czar and the team because it’s too much work for them to take on while focusing on other areas of the game.
    As for play testing, that’s as core to gameplay as any aspect of the game. There have been past 2K releases where up to 25% of the plays in the game have had broken/misconfigured actions. Czar and the team have done a great job with branching to limit the impact of one bad action, but I’ve been told they need to re-do play design every release which is a nightmare. That means the product team has decided to put more pressure on QA/QC to test these plays to ensure they run properly. That’s not an easy task since it takes some knowledge of real world basketball concepts and the underlying play system.
    Vann and I have probably spent thousands of hours combined in Practice Plays and game modes just running through sets. That’s time wasted from enjoying the user experience and it can’t be the consumer’s job each year to discover those issues.
    Hopefully the community recognizes the difference between gameplay now and before these playbook and ACE updates. I’ve played some of the best games ever in this series over the past week. It’s not even a similar game to the one that was shipped. Thank you to Czar and let’s keep it going for the rest of the league.
    As much as I hate to say this, since i thumbed my nose for years. Tendencies, rosters and playbooks affect the realism of the game more then anything. I played the 76ers about 10 times straight and watching Ben Simmons lead the team in shot attempts every game is a game killer. They run post ups and clear outs for him all game, and Embeid and his 63 o board rating eats only off of put backs.
    It would nice to see Butler and Embeid get more shot attempts and actions ran for them.
    The mav playbook is horribly unreal, just like the spurs playbook out of the box.
    Luckily, there are two valid plays.
    CUT LOOP 42 DIVE (Play Type = Cutter)
    QUICK 43 GIVE LOOP (Play Type = 3 PT)
    Both plays can be assigned to Mathews.
    https://youtu.be/SDgmhLSAEyU
    https://youtu.be/P8JUMg0f8Nk
    There is a base set run by the Mav this year that looks like the Piston Snap action, but due to the placement of the centers and the cut actions, they aint the same at all.
    Hope Czar can give some love to the Mavs, give them a series!
    https://youtu.be/VfKOjfDkQVk
    The lakers must have stolen this play from Rick Carlisle. Saw them run it in the Mavs game.
    https://youtu.be/qcl60KvZcHw
    You will need to add this play to the lakers playbook as they just run it recently.
    PUNCH LOOP 25 (Post Up Low)
    Assign to Ingram and have Lebron play as the power forward
    JoFri
    The mav playbook is horribly unreal, just like the spurs playbook out of the box.
    Luckily, there are two valid plays.
    CUT LOOP 42 DIVE (Play Type = Cutter)
    QUICK 43 GIVE LOOP (Play Type = 3 PT)
    Both plays can be assigned to Mathews.
    https://youtu.be/SDgmhLSAEyU
    https://youtu.be/P8JUMg0f8Nk
    There is a base set run by the Mav this year that looks like the Piston Snap action, but due to the placement of the centers and the cut actions, they aint the same at all.
    Hope Czar can give some love to the Mavs, give them a series!
    https://youtu.be/VfKOjfDkQVk

    Ive been using the Piston snap with Dallas, but yeah it's not perfect.
    If he gives them a series, it should be that action where a guard runs an Iverson cut in a wing pick and roll, has the choice of going either side, or kicking to the other wing where the other guard can run a pick and roll. So many options, seems perfect for a series. They've been running it for years.
    1.40-2.05 of this video.
    I will suggest that they copy piston snap, modify it and call it Mav Snap. They already have Bos Snap isnt it? Lol
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Havent played nor been followig Mr. President as much, but does anybody knows if there have been any further updates introduced lately ?
    I know it is not as easy or fast as we would hope, just to know if there are any more of them.
    And again, cant stress enough how much I/we value these playbook updates !
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