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2K Partners with NFLPA to Allow NFL Players in Multiple Football Games

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2K Partners with NFLPA to Allow NFL Players in Multiple Football Games

Before you get too excited, let’s go back to March, when 2K announced they will release a “Non-Simulation” football game in 2021. Nothing has changed there. We are looking at an NFL 2K Playgrounds type of game here, an arcade over-the-top football game, to be more specific, since the NFL and EA agreed to extend their exclusive rights through the 2025 season.

This NFLPA partnership, is just a way to allow 2K to include over 2,000 current NFL players in multiple football games, which are currently early in development. It also gives 2K rights to feature NFL player names, numbers, images and likenesses.

The first round of NFL 2K games are scheduled to launch, during Take-Two Interactive’s fiscal year 2022, which starts in calendar year 2021.

Read the full press release here.

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  1. Main question now is what does "non-simulation" mean? Since they said more info will be revealed at later deal, I expect to hear more info on games starting end of this year to early next year.
    Going slightly off-topic, seeing the OneTeam helped facilitate licensing deal, I wonder if they could help facilitate a NIL licensing deal for college athletes for a potential return of NCAA sports titles if NCAA lightens up and allows group licensing in NIL bill.
    illwill10
    Main question now is what does "non-simulation" mean? Since they said more info will be revealed at later deal, I expect to hear more info on games starting end of this year to early next year.
    Going slightly off-topic, seeing the OneTeam helped facilitate licensing deal, I wonder if they could help facilitate a NIL licensing deal for college athletes for a potential return of NCAA sports titles if NCAA lightens up and allows group licensing in NIL bill.

    non-simulation is like more arcade style similar to NFL Blitz/Street and WWE 2k battleground
    It's going to be some sort of NFL 2K Playgrounds game or something very similar. Since EA has the exclusive rights to "simulation football" there's no way 2K will make anything close to a sim. It's arcade or nothing at this point and maybe the NFL doesn't go exclusive in 2025, when that deal is over with EA.
    Not likely though, unfortunately.
    TecmoZack
    This is most excellent
    Now how long do we wait to see clarification on"sim" and what this game will be?

    The term most excellent made me lol. Like a surfer dude or something.
    Steve_OS
    It's going to be some sort of NFL 2K Playgrounds game or something very similar. Since EA has the exclusive rights to "simulation football" there's no way 2K will make anything close to a sim. It's arcade or nothing at this point and maybe the NFL doesn't go exclusive in 2025, when that deal is over with EA.
    Not likely though, unfortunately.

    In the press release it does say that they're working on "multiple" football games. I completely agree that one of them will definitely be a NFL Playgrounds type of game but what could the other(s) one be?
    It's completely possible that the other game could be a mobile, card like type of game which is obviously not what most of us here want.
    I guess we'll all find out soon enough.
    illwill10
    Main question now is what does "non-simulation" mean? Since they said more info will be revealed at later deal, I expect to hear more info on games starting end of this year to early next year.
    Going slightly off-topic, seeing the OneTeam helped facilitate licensing deal, I wonder if they could help facilitate a NIL licensing deal for college athletes for a potential return of NCAA sports titles if NCAA lightens up and allows group licensing in NIL bill.

    I don't think it was OneTeam that was mentioned, but one article I was reading about the group licensing mentioned that there is one group out there that is ready right now if the NIL rulings lead to group licensing being allowed.
    I'll look for the article, but I thought it was called something Rep.
    2k football mechanics in smb skin.
    7 on 7 football.
    this got me thinking. if it includes power ups etc isnt that almost like x-factors or badges in the sim titles.
    because of these enhanced skills and badge systems, sim sports titles already blur the line between sim and arcade.
    and when they say a sim football game are they specifically saying that they cant make an "NFL" sim game.
    there is so many ways to interpret this.
    Rocky
    In the press release it does say that they're working on "multiple" football games. I completely agree that one of them will definitely be a NFL Playgrounds type of game but what could the other(s) one be?
    It's completely possible that the other game could be a mobile, card like type of game which is obviously not what most of us here want.
    I guess we'll all find out soon enough.

    The multiple games has me interested too. No doubt the NFL licensed game will be a playgrounds, but with the NFLPA the other could be an All Pro Football 2k8 type game with all the NFL players. Here’s to hoping anyways.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    Rocky
    In the press release it does say that they're working on "multiple" football games. I completely agree that one of them will definitely be a NFL Playgrounds type of game but what could the other(s) one be?
    It's completely possible that the other game could be a mobile, card like type of game which is obviously not what most of us here want.
    I guess we'll all find out soon enough.

    I am hopefully they have a Legends game, including Great teams of the Past.
    I think they can get away with a non "simulation" game instead of calling it a simulation game start calling it "realistic football" or "Virtual football" "computerized football" game something creative.
    Frankly I have no idea why 2K just haven't made another iteration of All Pro Football and include heavy customisation. That would sell like hot cakes.
    I still think APF2K8 is the best playing football game to date and I would rather a sim game with generic teams than a street version of the NFL.
    I'm with you in thinking NFL players in a APF-style non NFL team setup. Customize the teams all you want with the players. Heck, if you look at Ultimate Team, everyone is making their own uniforms and team names and aren't concerned about being the real teams...and that's in the "simulation" game. Let the non-sim game be generic teams that people can make into the real ones if they want.
    zello144
    I think they can get away with a non "simulation" game instead of calling it a simulation game start calling it "realistic football" or "Virtual football" "computerized football" game something creative.

    That's not how it works. They can't just strike this deal and then call their game authentic instead of simulation and return NFL 2k because of their word choice. Simulation is defined by certain criteria that only the NFL, 2k, and EA know and we can only speculate on it. It may be that simulation gameplay is anything 11 v 11, anything with a franchise mode, or whatever the NFL defined it as with EA.
    I also see on OS and other places on the internet that people are focusing on the word "multiple". I think when they refer to multiple games they just mean they'll release a game in 2021, a game in 2022, and so on. I don't think it necessarily means that they are going to release NFL Playgrounds and then another game as well.
    I think the low bar is a Playgrounds type game, but that won't move the needle enough to warrant a deal with the NFL/NFLPA (IMO).
    I think a MyTeam and/or MyCareer experience, which EA is already or has targeted with Madden NFL, is a strong possibility. The issue is that wouldn't appease the sim heads, so not sure how they could also target us or their previous audience from the APF/NFL 2K days.
    I'm happy they officially announced this deal, though. We'll probably find out sometime early next year what type of game it'll be.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    What exactly is football simulation ? Can no one else make 4 quarter games etc ? Even if thats the case why not just do things like NFL Blitz style games. Let the Madden nuts have Madden & let 2k bring back the fun in Football
    If the "simulation" football stipulation is only attached to the NFL license and not the NFLPA, then the door is open for 2k to make a pro football sim using current NFL players.
    Kanobi
    If the "simulation" football stipulation is only attached to the NFL license and not the NFLPA, then the door is open for 2k to make a pro football sim using current NFL players.
    Right, I was thinking the same thing last night. They could just go the Madden 64, Madden NFL prior to 95 (or 96 whenever they acquired the official NFL license) and old school Tecmo route and just use the NFLPA license to make a "sim" alternative.
    A lot is in the cards and it depends on what they think can generate the most revenue & make these like deals most fruitful. Which I believe a 'Playgrounds' type game alone will not. Of course could be completely wrong and that is exactly (and only) what they give us.
    I hope they are smarter than that and figure out how to fully optimize both this "non-sim" NFL & the - separate but just as valuable - NFLPA license.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    In my mind, using fictional stadiums and teams would make the game "non-simulation" since it's not attempt to exactly replicate the NFL. The agreement with the Union gives them the right to use all the current players in any fashion they feel fit. The agreement with the NFL just says that the game is sponsored by the NFL.
    It's really depends on how much of a middle finger that Take 2 is willing to give EA. There is way too many loopholes that Take Two can fall behind. I'm trying to imagine how this would play out in a court of law.
    Whole lot of speculation going on right now. We don't really know what 2k is allowed to do and what they aren't allowed to do. It would be shocking to me if 2k were to make multiple games each year and for one to be a game that had all of the players, just no real team names or NFL branding and was basically 2k football brought back. I'd be happy, but I am only going to believe we're getting NFL Playgrounds until proven otherwise. I don't want to set myself up and expect too much.
    I feel sympathy for anyone here who think 2K has a chance to make anything regarding "real" football. They're not; if you're a big enough sports game fan to be on OS, then you know what the line of sim and non-sim is already. It's clearly a Playgrounds and SuperCard deal and to think otherwise is simply a waste of your time and energy and only setting you up for disappointment. 
    canes21
    It would be shocking to me if 2k were to make multiple games each year and for one to be a game that had all of the players, just no real team names or NFL branding and was basically 2k football brought back.

    Them releasing "multiple games each year" is unlikely. But an NFLPA licensed pro football sim is not at all difficult to fathom.
    I just hope it's something different... Sure NFL Blitz style games were entertaining (and I'm sure we will most likely get NFL Playgrounds), but arcade football games never scratched my itch of pretending to be Barry Sanders as a kid.
    I hope they come up with something that can include realistic player movements and mechanics but just not in the NFL stadiums. Maybe like a 7 on 7 park football thing with realistic player movements and tackling just no pads. You could still run a season/league/MyTeam or create a player and have like Pro-Am teams mixed with Stars (that you would probably have to unlock with VC knowing 2k hahaha) and created players. Maybe have different field types like traditional grass or beach football. Maybe even a flag football mode... Like NFL intramurals... Hahaha I don't know, just something...
    Sent from my SM-N960U using Operation Sports mobile app
    bigeastbumrush
    Just make Coming To America’s version of McDowell’s
    -First downs: 9 yards instead of 10
    -TD: 7 points instead of 6
    -FG: 2 points instead of 3
    And full uniform editing.

    "My footballs have no laces"
    I have no interest whatsoever in non-sim football in any way, but I will buy this game out of spite. Which I realize is stupid, but.....I don't have anything smart to say in response to that. But I'm gonna do it anyway.
    Kanobi
    Them releasing "multiple games each year" is unlikely. But an NFLPA licensed pro football sim is not at all difficult to fathom.

    I would have to see it to believe it. I'd be happy if it were to ever happen, but I just don't see it being very likely. I wouldn't be surprised if EA's contract with the NFL has some language that prohibits a game of this sorts from happening as well.
    Kanobi
    Them releasing "multiple games each year" is unlikely. But an NFLPA licensed pro football sim is not at all difficult to fathom.

    Isn’t this what 2k does with NBA? NBA2k and NBA playgrounds?
    Seems to me this is how they would do the NFL. The league can only be used in non simulation so NFL playgrounds is the most likely game we are getting.
    Having the NFLPA means an APF with real players is much more viable for them than a handful of retired and generics were. Non NFL teams would mean it’s not simulation to me.
    Im not getting overly excited until actual titles are announced but it seems like it’s at least possible that this is the plan.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    milkmanbonzai
    I feel sympathy for anyone here who think 2K has a chance to make anything regarding "real" football. They're not; if you're a big enough sports game fan to be on OS, then you know what the line of sim and non-sim is already. It's clearly a Playgrounds and SuperCard deal and to think otherwise is simply a waste of your time and energy and only setting you up for disappointment.*
    Or it is just being open-minded with the realization that the lowest bar is a "SuperCard" mobile game & a NFL "Playgrounds" type game.
    That could be all they'll release, but I find it hard to imagine an ambitious, innovative (and "greedy" as some would say) publisher & development house like Take-Two & Visual Concepts (if they are placed on one of these projects) wouldn't attempt to fully optimize the NFL/NFLPA license.
    Those type of casual titles don't push the needle & have a niche following.
    Did the NFLPA follow suit with the NFL & give EA exclusive rights to their likenesses in a "simulation" title, again? I'll have to re-read the press release from a few months back.....
    ****, they did. Well, that removes that idea from the equation. LOLOL
    We'll find out next year.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    J_Posse
    Or it is just being open-minded with the realization that the lowest bar is a "SuperCard" mobile game & a NFL "Playgrounds" type game.
    That could be all they'll release, but I find it hard to imagine an ambitious, innovative (and "greedy" as some would say) publisher & development house like Take-Two & Visual Concepts (if they are placed on one of these projects) wouldn't attempt to fully optimize the NFL/NFLPA license.
    Those type of casual titles don't push the needle & have a niche following.
    Did the NFLPA follow suit with the NFL & give EA exclusive rights to their likenesses in a "simulation" title, again? I'll have to re-read the press release from a few months back.....
    ****, they did. Well, that removes that idea from the equation. LOLOL
    We'll find out next year.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    Just to quote myself & clarify a little more, I think everyone's expectations & the realization of this deal were set once the NFL re-upped with EA. That announcement, the subsequent press release & press release by Take-Two announcing their new partnership all framed what we can & should expect.
    Likely a bunch of casual titles laden with microtransactions that won't appeal to the sim (or their former NFL 2K) audience.
    That doesn't mean people should lose the right to speculate a bit & have fun with all this. If they decide to only make a 'Playgrounds' & mobile card games, so be it. The ship sailed on competitive AAA pro football titles back in 2005, but we'll at least now have something else in the market.
    With indie developers also pushing to make their offerings better as well.
    And maybe, just maybe, 2K can find a groove & make this partnership fruitful for all parties involved. Possible even the ever shrinking simulation sports video game audience.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    canes21
    I wouldn't be surprised if EA's contract with the NFL has some language that prohibits a game of this sorts from happening as well.

    The NFLPA is its own entity. Nothing in EA's agreement with the NFL should have anything to do with or any say in Take-Two's agreement with the NFLPA.
    canes21
    I would have to see it to believe it. I'd be happy if it were to ever happen, but I just don't see it being very likely. I wouldn't be surprised if EA's contract with the NFL has some language that prohibits a game of this sorts from happening as well.

    Yup.
    The language of this Polygon article from May about EA's exclusivity extension certainly points to the idea that both their agreements with the NFL and NFLPA grant them simulation exclusivity (emphasis mine):
    The exclusivity in EA’s agreements applies only to simulation titles; the contract language says that “arcade-style games, youth games, and casual/mobile games” are open to anyone.

    And as J_Posse has alluded to, the NFLPA's own May press blast about their agreement with EA similarly calls out the idea of exclusivity:
    Under the partnership, the EA SPORTS™ Madden NFL franchise will exclusively create authentic football simulation games, and EA SPORTS, the NFL and the NFLPA will partner to develop games in new genres, expanded esports programs, and additional experiences for fans across more platforms.

    I'm not seeing any wiggle room in there for Take 2 to publish a simulation game which involves the NFL or NFLPA, much less both, and as such I won't be holding my breath for such a game.
    Actually, guys, what we're looking for right there in 2K's own press blast from the top post of this thread:
    2K's NFL games will be non-simulation football game experiences, and are currently in early stages of development. Specific game titles, developers and release dates will be announced at a later date.

    This would appear to shut the door on the idea of an NFL-licensed "non-sim" game and an NFLPA-licensed "sim" game. This points to any games released under this agreement being "non-simulation".
    Kanobi
    The NFLPA is its own entity. Nothing in EA's agreement with the NFL should have anything to do with or any say in Take-Two's agreement with the NFLPA.
    It seems vague & I can't find the official press release that states that players can only appear in a EA "simulation" title.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    CM Hooe
    Actually, guys, what we're looking for right there in 2K's own press blast from the top post of this thread:
    Agreed, but does a APF or "MyTeam" experience fall under the premise of "simulation." And how could they or would they package those experiences without infringing on the EA/NFL agreement? Which they clearly care not to do since they've gone out of there way in the past to create an (although unsuccessful) alternative experience (in APF 2K8).
    It'll likely be an arcade experience akeen to NFL Street, Blitz or a "Playgrounds" esque experience, but a lot of this is vague & left to our interpretation/speculation.
    Which, again, is fun & expectations have been lowered since March or April.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    J_Posse
    It seems vague & I can't find the official press release that states that players can only appear in a EA "simulation"

    Because there is none.
    We know that 2k cannot make an NFL licensed game that is simulation. That much is clear. The question is whether or not 2k can make a game without the NFL branding, but uses the NFL players that is simulation gameplay.
    Again, I wouldn't be surprised if there is some wording somewhere to make sure that avenue was shut for 2k also, but we don't know for sure. There will be plenty of speculation until everything is finally announced.
    canes21
    We know that 2k cannot make an NFL licensed game that is simulation. That much is clear. The question is whether or not 2k can make a game without the NFL branding, but uses the NFL players that is simulation gameplay.
    Again, I wouldn't be surprised if there is some wording somewhere to make sure that avenue was shut for 2k also, but we don't know for sure. There will be plenty of speculation until everything is finally announced.

    So basically the "Madden 64" situation (for anyone who remembers that game - licensed by the PA but not the league. so the Pats were "Foxboro"* for example)?
    If they were gonna do that I couldn't really see them chasing after the NFL license in the first place though - it would mean they're creating two games.
    *The full city name didn't fit in the team name string back then I guess, so they shortened it
    This is what I think will happen, 2k will release a "Card/Mobile" game none of us here will care about and either an NFL Street type game and/or an actual 11v11 that will lack just enough elements to call it an NFL simulation.
    EA may have the rights to making an NFL simulation. But they don't have the right to simulation football. There are other football games out that are considered could be considered simulations. I think they could do something as simple as not having the players in equipment and playing in non-NFL stadiums.
    I'm just thinking of options because the term 'simulation' by definition is the imitation of a situation or process. That's too broad.
    Pray_iv_m3rcy
    If 2k could make a sim football game with NFLPA wouldn't they announce that?

    In my opinion, not if there's a contract that says they can't do that. However, it doesn't mean they can't simulate the sport. I'm probably wrong, but if they did something like made the field 50yds, changed the amount of downs per possession, the distance to a 1st down, etc, it changes the game from an NFL simulation because those aren't NFL rules.
    bcruise
    So basically the "Madden 64" situation (for anyone who remembers that game - licensed by the PA but not the league. so the Pats were "Foxboro"* for example)?
    If they were gonna do that I couldn't really see them chasing after the NFL license in the first place though - it would mean they're creating two games.
    *The full city name didn't fit in the team name string back then I guess, so they shortened it

    I agree. If they wanted to do a Madden 64 type game, then they could have just went after NFLPA license only. They could have saved millions from not having to pay for NFL License.
    I feel the consensus is that either is keep expectations low(Playgrounds) or try to find loopholes for best case scenario(APF or 7-on-7) . I'm sure NFL has given them strict guidelines of what they can and can't do and will probably have to submit updates what 2k is doing for approval. But at the same time, worse case scenario NFL Playgrounds and a mobile card game. As J-Posse said earlier, does that move the needle for 2k and is it worth it for 2k? NFL Playgrounds and a mobile game isn't going to sell well and be profitable for 2k unless they fill them with appealing microtransactions. Couldn't find exact numbers, but original NBA Playgrounds sold just over 500k copies. I don't see NBA Playgrounds 2 selling much more than that. I don't see WWE Battlegrounds selling that well since the WWE 2k series was selling poorly last few years. I don't see 2k investing and spending so much money on NFL license just to put out a Playgrounds game.
    As others said, if they can't find a loophole for best case scenario, then I think a NFL Street esque game would be okay if they can include a Park like online and a solo offline experience. I would be supportive of a NFL Street esque game if it still feels like Football
    bcruise
    So basically the "Madden 64" situation (for anyone who remembers that game - licensed by the PA but not the league. so the Pats were "Foxboro"* for example)?
    If they were gonna do that I couldn't really see them chasing after the NFL license in the first place though - it would mean they're creating two games.
    *The full city name didn't fit in the team name string back then I guess, so they shortened it

    I don't anticipate them doing that, but some are speculating they may go down that route along with an NFL Playgrounds type of game. I think we're getting NFL Playgrounds and that's it, but we'll see.
    Erratic
    Would a legends game (using old retired players) be allowed to be a simulation under the deal?

    This has been my hope.
    Seems safe to assume 2k will not be making a NFL branded current roster football game.
    I’m not sure however, with the licenses they now have, if a legends / historic teams game w real NFL logos and uniforms would be allowed. Would be an evolution of APF 2k8 but with real rosters and NFL logos.
    I would eat that up. I realize it’s much harder to pull that off in football vs basketball (way more players) but I love all the historic teams in NBA2k.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Are former players even a part of the NFL PA? I thought when 2k8 was being made that 2k had to negotiate with each individual because getting a deal with the NFL PA only allows you to use the likeness of active players.
    canes21
    Are former players even a part of the NFL PA? I thought when 2k8 was being made that 2k had to negotiate with each individual because getting a deal with the NFL PA only allows you to use the likeness of active players.

    Would be curious to know myself.
    I seem to remember reading about 2k signing legends individually.
    I’d be curious if they’d be allowed to make an NFL simulation game with only historic teams. Since Madden doesn’t have historic teams anymore, you could argue its not competing with Madden.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ksuttonjr76
    You all do realize that EA or NFL doesn't "own" the sport of football, right?

    We sure do.
    But as of right now, they own the right to make a simulation NFL football game.
    Personally, I don't see how creating a game with fictional teams and stadiums would fall in the category of "simulation".
    There's a difference between trying to replicate a "football experience" versus a "NFL experience". Any MyCareer mode would immediately fall into the "non-simulation" category, because it's a work of fiction. Any MyTeam/MyGM mode would immediately fall into the "non-simulation" category, as long as the teams are playing in neutral stadiums/locations.
    If EA Sports had true exclusive rights to being the only developer to create a simulation football game, then there would have never been an APF 2K in the first place.
    ksuttonjr76
    Personally, I don't see how creating a game with fictional teams and stadiums would fall in the category of "simulation".
    There's a difference between trying to replicate a "football experience" versus a "NFL experience". Any MyCareer mode would immediately fall into the "non-simulation" category, because it's a work of fiction. Any MyTeam/MyGM mode would immediately fall into the "non-simulation" category, as long as the teams are playing in neutral stadiums/locations.
    If EA Sports had true exclusive rights to being the only developer to create a simulation football game, then there would have never been an APF 2K in the first place.

    You're 100% right about the bolded.
    This exclusive right to being the only developer that can make a simulation game is new this year (it's part of this new agreement between 2k and the NFL).
    To your other points, no one knows true definition of what dictates simulation. Personally, I believe that the definition lays somewhere much closer to "anything that looks like a true football game."
    That said, no one really knows, it's all speculation.
    Real talk...
    Do y'all REALLY believe that Take Two is going to settle with developing some BS arcade and mobile games? The fact they went and seeked a separate agreement with the NFLPA AFTER EA's press release should tell you everything you need to know about what Take Two is planning to do.
    canes21
    That's not how it works. They can't just strike this deal and then call their game authentic instead of simulation and return NFL 2k because of their word choice. Simulation is defined by certain criteria that only the NFL, 2k, and EA know and we can only speculate on it. It may be that simulation gameplay is anything 11 v 11, anything with a franchise mode, or whatever the NFL defined it as with EA.

    Fingers crossed for an "Authentic football" NFL 2k game.
    Pray_iv_m3rcy
    If 2k could make a sim football game with NFLPA wouldn't they announce that?

    According to the press release, the titles and their respective developer studios will be announced at a later date. Stay tuned.
    ksuttonjr76

    If EA Sports had true exclusive rights to being the only developer to create a simulation football game, then there would have never been an APF 2K in the first place.

    EA holds exclusive rights to make NFL-licensed simulation football games....not simulation football games period. If you wanted to make a pro football sim using fictional teams, logos and stadiums, EA could not stop you.
    ksuttonjr76
    Can the NFL block other organizations from creating a new football league?

    Are you looking for an answer or are we just going with rhetorical questions as a point of conversation?
    ksuttonjr76
    Real talk...
    Do y'all REALLY believe that Take Two is going to settle with developing some BS arcade and mobile games? The fact they went and seeked a separate agreement with the NFLPA AFTER EA's press release should tell you everything you need to know about what Take Two is planning to do.

    We're talking about a company that shamelessly publishes WWE Supercard, a laughably shallow mobile game featuring an internationally-known licensed property (WWE) and the game makes money hand-over-fist despite how mechanically boring it is.
    We're talking about a company that prioritizes and pushes in its advertising literal slot machines in two of its most popular games (Grand Theft Auto V and NBA 2K20) admist a public discourse about the morality of gambling features in video games.
    It is my personal opinion that Take 2 as it currently exists will greenlight whatever idea makes them the most money the fastest. Whether or not whatever game they publish is quality is ancillary to that goal, it will move units because the NFL and NFLPA badges are on it and they will create an in-game recurrent user spending economy from there.
    Steve_OS
    It's going to be some sort of NFL 2K Playgrounds game or something very similar. Since EA has the exclusive rights to "simulation football" there's no way 2K will make anything close to a sim. It's arcade or nothing at this point and maybe the NFL doesn't go exclusive in 2025, when that deal is over with EA.
    Not likely though, unfortunately.

    Rocky
    In the press release it does say that they're working on "multiple" football games. I completely agree that one of them will definitely be a NFL Playgrounds type of game but what could the other(s) one be?
    It's completely possible that the other game could be a mobile, card like type of game which is obviously not what most of us here want.
    I guess we'll all find out soon enough.

    Yeah most likely it's Playgrounds and Supercard.
    jvalverde88
    Yeah most likely it's Playgrounds and Supercard.
    No disrespect intended to Steve, but he knows about as much as the rest of us & is speculating what he believes we'll get. Again, he could be totally right yet I'll still wait for official confirmation.
    CM Hooe
    We're talking about a company that shamelessly publishes WWE Supercard, a laughably shallow mobile game featuring an internationally-known licensed property (WWE) and the game makes money hand-over-fist despite how mechanically boring it is.
    We're talking about a company that prioritizes and pushes in its advertising literal slot machines in two of its most popular games (Grand Theft Auto V and NBA 2K20) admist a public discourse about the morality of gambling features in video games.
    It is my personal opinion that Take 2 as it currently exists will greenlight whatever idea makes them the most money the fastest. Whether or not whatever game they publish is quality is ancillary to that goal, it will move units because the NFL and NFLPA badges are on it and they will create an in-game recurrent user spending economy from there.
    Right, but I'm sure the WWE license isn't nearly as expensive or as valuable from a branding & marketing standpoint.
    And all these AAA companies (Take-2, EA, Ubisoft, etc) are guilty of milking their user base - who lacks the self control of not purchasing microtransactions - so that point is moot.
    A SuperCard, even if successful, & Playgrounds title(s) isn't going to create nearly the revenue stream to justify having the NFL license beyond the short term, IMO.
    I could be entirely wrong, again we are all just spitballing, and they could be totally fine with watered-down, casual experiences with no long-term ability to expand (& grow the revenue stream & user base ala NBA 2K).
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    J_Posse
    No disrespect intended to Steve, but he knows about as much as the rest of us & is speculating what he believes we'll get. Again, he could be totally right yet I'll still wait for official confirmation. Right, but I'm sure the WWE license isn't nearly as expensive or as valuable from a branding & marketing standpoint.
    And all these AAA companies (Take-2, EA, Ubisoft, etc) are guilty of milking their user base - who lacks the self control of not purchasing microtransactions - so that point is moot.
    A SuperCard, even if successful, & Playgrounds title(s) isn't going to create nearly the revenue stream to justify having the NFL license beyond the short term, IMO.
    I could be entirely wrong, again we are all just spitballing, and they could be totally fine with watered-down, casual experiences with no long-term ability to expand (& grow the revenue stream & user base ala NBA 2K).
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation

    I agree.
    Even if "successful", Playgrounds and Supercard isn't something you can really build upon long term. NBA Playgrounds 2 came out 2018 and nothing in rumor mill about NP3. You're more banking on the mmicrotransactions from Supercard. I know a lot of people spend money on MyNBA2k app. I don't like those card based apps. Never played Supercard, but I don't like what MyNBA2k has become over last several years. It's the same app, different skin and a new event, but still same bland boring app that gets stingier on the amount of VC you can earn. You use to potentially earn up to 2100 VC a day years ago to now earning up to 500 VC a day. If the mobile/social media game is like the old MyNBA2k13 and 14 games, i wouldn't mind that. That was a lot more fun and more to do outside of card based games
    NFL Shield, NFL Players, and 2k brand are strong selling points. But a NFL Playgrounds would, at best, sell 2-3 million copies. Is that really worth it. Either you are hoping that it becomes major success and that leads to NFL opening up license in 5-6 years or you just want to be in NFL market and take whatever revenue and profit you can get
    J_Posse
    No disrespect intended to Steve, but he knows about as much as the rest of us & is speculating what he believes we'll get. Again, he could be totally right yet I'll still wait for official confirmation. Right, but I'm sure the WWE license isn't nearly as expensive or as valuable from a branding & marketing standpoint.
    And all these AAA companies (Take-2, EA, Ubisoft, etc) are guilty of milking their user base - who lacks the self control of not purchasing microtransactions - so that point is moot.
    A SuperCard, even if successful, & Playgrounds title(s) isn't going to create nearly the revenue stream to justify having the NFL license beyond the short term, IMO.
    I could be entirely wrong, again we are all just spitballing, and they could be totally fine with watered-down, casual experiences with no long-term ability to expand (& grow the revenue stream & user base ala NBA 2K).
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation

    I don't know. The links that CM Hooe highlighted seem pretty convincing. I have a hard time believing that the NFLPA would tether with the NFL so much to have their players be in a game that at all resembles NFL football.
    That said, I agree with you completely. I can't imagine a Playgrounds/Supercard game would justify the price tag for NFL licenses. Hell even for WWE, the developer messed up the "simulation" game so bad that the arcade game was the fallback.
    Also with the emphasis on online gaming and customization of today (made popular in sports games by 2K's own MyCareer), why wouldn't TT just create a completely generic, souped up unlicensed game where you could boost up your player/team through microtransactions? At it's core, NBA2K's most popular mycareer stuff is detached from the NBA.
    Blzer
    Random question, but does EA still have the ESPN license?

    Yes. They signed a 15 year deal starting in 2006. So most likely expires next year. I haven't heard of any extensions or mentions of it over the past few years. But i expect them to renew the ESPN license
    But I am surprised that we haven't heard much about. Those deals typically get announced 1-2 years prior to it beginning/expiring. Latest I feel we will hear about is Jan 2021. I rather EA to just drop that exclusive ESPN license. It was primarily done as a nail in the coffin for 2k. Outside of Head Coach, College games, and Live, EA's main use of the ESPN license is for advertising. It was a 15yr 865 million deal that resulted in a couple games incorporating it but primarily for Advertising.
    illwill10
    Yes. They signed a 15 year deal starting in 2006. So most likely expires next year. I haven't heard of any extensions or mentions of it over the past few years. But i expect them to renew the ESPN license
    But I am surprised that we haven't heard much about. Those deals typically get announced 1-2 years prior to it beginning/expiring. Latest I feel we will hear about is Jan 2021. I rather EA to just drop that exclusive ESPN license. It was primarily done as a nail in the coffin for 2k. Outside of Head Coach, College games, and Live, EA main use of the ESPN license is for advertising. It was a 15yr 865 million deal that resulted in a couple games incorporating it but primarily for Advertising.

    Okay, I was wondering because the articles I was reading were in January of 2005. That kind of speaks to your "1-2 years before beginning" bit, though.
    Even if 2K was able to make some sort of ESPN Football 2K21 and integrate as much ESPN as they did in 2K5, I don't think it would be nearly as exciting anymore. ESPN is not the same studio that it once was. Before it had so much color, glamour, beautiful sounds all around (when that sports ticker first chimed as it popped up, I nearly **** myself at how beautiful it was), and the personalities were second to none.
    That being said, I know how much money talks with everything, but if I am ESPN, I'm looking at how 2K used it versus how EA did in their sports games, and from the outside looking in I'd rather side with the company that glorifies my name, likeness, and image. I mean it was on the game titles for crying out loud. The only thing they didn't use was their own commentators.
    Anyway, to the point of this thread as a whole, there are a lot of things I wish I could go back in time to intervene, and strangely EA's deals with the NFL, NFLPA, and ESPN is probably very high on that list. To think what 2K could have been doing today with this game, especially if they also adopted the Euphoria physics engine on top of it all. Sigh.
    kehlis
    Are you looking for an answer or are we just going with rhetorical questions as a point of conversation?
    My point is that if the NFL can't stop another group from creating another football league with 11v11 action, then how can EA legally stop Take 2 from creating a 11v11 videogame with the players they legally obtained?
    ksuttonjr76
    My point is that if the NFL can't stop another group from creating another football league with 11v11 action, then how can EA legally stop Take 2 from creating a 11v11 videogame with the players they legally obtained?

    As far as I can tell, they can't. There's nothing stopping 2K from going the Madden 64 route that I mentioned earlier, if they now have an agreement with the PA. But they can't use the NFL's branding if they do that.
    So, again, why pursue the NFL license in the first place if they can't use it for the purpose of creating this hypothetical 11v11 game? Some other type of NFL-licensed game would have to be in the works, like a mobile or card game that's been suggested.
    Blzer
    Okay, I was wondering because the articles I was reading were in January of 2005. That kind of speaks to your "1-2 years before beginning" bit, though.
    Even if 2K was able to make some sort of ESPN Football 2K21 and integrate as much ESPN as they did in 2K5, I don't think it would be nearly as exciting anymore. ESPN is not the same studio that it once was. Before it had so much color, glamour, beautiful sounds all around (when that sports ticker first chimed as it popped up, I nearly **** myself at how beautiful it was), and the personalities were second to none.
    That being said, I know how much money talks with everything, but if I am ESPN, I'm looking at how 2K used it versus how EA did in their sports games, and from the outside looking in I'd rather side with the company that glorifies my name, likeness, and image. I mean it was on the game titles for crying out loud. The only thing they didn't use was their own commentators.
    Anyway, to the point of this thread as a whole, there are a lot of things I wish I could go back in time to intervene, and strangely EA's deals with the NFL, NFLPA, and ESPN is probably very high on that list. To think what 2K could have been doing today with this game, especially if they also adopted the Euphoria physics engine on top of it all. Sigh.

    That EA-ESPN deal was just so 2k couldn't have ESPN or try to make a generic ESPN 2k football game. EA said from the jump that not much was going to change. It was primarily advertising deal. I rather EA just drop that license if that's how they continue to use it. I do feel 2k would try actually try to incorporate ESPN more in there games, but wouldn't see them re-adopt the ESPN name in the title. Those deals don't typically get lapsed quietly. I would expect to hear something in the next 6 months about the ESPN license
    bcruise
    As far as I can tell, they can't. There's nothing stopping 2K from going the Madden 64 route that I mentioned earlier, if they now have an agreement with the PA. But they can't use the NFL's branding if they do that.
    So, again, why pursue the NFL license in the first place if they can't use it for the purpose of creating this hypothetical 11v11 game? Some other type of NFL-licensed game would have to be in the works, like a mobile or card game that's been suggested.
    I feel like everyone is being short-sighted. They literally already did this before with APF 2K8. The only difference is that they made agreements with a bunch of legendary players versus the actual NFLPA. The NFL agreement literally allows them to use the words "NFL" on the box.
    I'll be totally shocked if they don't release the game as NFL 2K22 next season
    ksuttonjr76
    I feel like everyone is being short-sighted. They literally already did this before with APF 2K8. The only difference is that they made agreements with a bunch of legendary players versus the actual NFLPA. The NFL agreement literally allows them to use the words "NFL" on the box.
    I'll be totally shocked if they don't release the game as NFL 2K22 next season
    That would be interesting & they would have to frame the offline experience in a way that doesn't infringe on the EA/NFL deal. Maybe something like how Super Mega Baseball handles their season/franchise mode?
    And I think they did state that the series old moniker would return in one of the previous press releases.
    I think even the speculation is fun even if an APF sequel doesn't come of all this. It shows that the hunger is still alive for an alternative "simulation" experience & the independent titles are still out there.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    J_Posse
    That would be interesting & they would have to frame the offline experience in a way that doesn't infringe on the EA/NFL deal. Maybe something like how Super Mega Baseball handles their season/franchise mode?
    And I think they did state that the series old moniker would return in one of the previous press releases.
    I think even the speculation is fun even if an APF sequel doesn't come of all this. It shows that the hunger is still alive for an alternative "simulation" experience & the independent titles are still out there.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    Yeah. The marketing team will definitely have to be careful, because we all know that EA will be watching their every move.
    I personally feel like after purchasing the licenses and getting back in touch with the NFL after so many years it just wouldn't be worth it to end up with an NFL playgrounds or NFL street type of experience. That's just not going to get it done considering that 2k is getting back in business with a corporation that can potentially make them an enormous amount of money.
    bcruise
    As far as I can tell, they can't. There's nothing stopping 2K from going the Madden 64 route that I mentioned earlier, if they now have an agreement with the PA. But they can't use the NFL's branding if they do that.
    So, again, why pursue the NFL license in the first place if they can't use it for the purpose of creating this hypothetical 11v11 game? Some other type of NFL-licensed game would have to be in the works, like a mobile or card game that's been suggested.

    If they are going by their 2 game NBA model, I think they would need the NFL license for the playgrounds game. It’s already very niche and generic teams even with real players wouldn’t sell well. Probably didn’t cost them as much as we think it would for this purpose. Quite a few mobile games already use the NFL license.
    The players license is all they need for a APF type game to work. The original didn’t have any micro transactions and we all know it would definitely be included in a new version. It wouldn’t sell like an NFL simulation but I imagine it would be pretty profitable.
    I’m with several others on here that just don’t believe that NFL playgrounds and a card game would make enough money to be worth the effort to get these licenses.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    What if it's like a MyCareer only game where you play as one position.
    NFL 2k QB, NFL 2k Signalcallers, etc. Something like Head coach but where you can only play as the QB.
    zello144
    What if it's like a MyCareer only game where you play as one position.
    NFL 2k QB, NFL 2k Signalcallers, etc. Something like Head coach but where you can only play as the QB.

    Still a simulation of the game.
    zello144
    What if it's like a MyCareer only game where you play as one position.
    NFL 2k QB, NFL 2k Signalcallers, etc. Something like Head coach but where you can only play as the QB.

    I think a mycareer experience but only go up to 7v7.
    If it also included realistic player movement, signature animations and deep customization I would be very intrigued
    zello144
    What if it's like a MyCareer only game where you play as one position.
    NFL 2k QB, NFL 2k Signalcallers, etc. Something like Head coach but where you can only play as the QB.
    I'm pretty confident that there will be a MyCareer mode.
    Pray_iv_m3rcy
    So this is what I dont understand. Why does 2k have to make a non simulation game with NFLPA if the NFL/NFLPA licenses are separate?

    I don't know the answer for sure, but I'd say that the NFL wouldn't be too happy about that if they're already in bed with them in another light, especially if team customization was a possibility. It might not bode well with that other deal they have.
    kehlis
    Still a simulation of the game.

    Do we actually have any idea what simulation means? I don't think it's been outlined what the NFL and EA defines as simulation. I would assume they have very certain limits that 2k has to work around.
    Simulation could literally limit 2k from having a franchise mode and nothing more. It could limit them from using 11 v 11, 4 downs, etc.
    We can guess what simulation is, but the truth is we have no idea, only EA, the NFL, and 2k know what the contracts define as simulation.
    It would be amazing if 2k gets to make a 11 on 11 game with real nfl rules but just make the player models with bigger muscles and whatnot to make it appear as an arcade style game. Maybe EA won't notice. :cheers444
    canes21
    Do we actually have any idea what simulation means?

    No, and I said that just a few posts back. This post was just my conjecture.
    kehlis
    To your other points, no one knows true definition of what dictates simulation. Personally, I believe that the definition lays somewhere much closer to "anything that looks like a true football game."
    That said, no one really knows, it's all speculation.
    Pray_iv_m3rcy
    So this is what I dont understand. Why does 2k have to make a non simulation game with NFLPA if the NFL/NFLPA licenses are separate?

    Based on the information currently available, including any relevant press releases and statements, there is nothing that definitively states nor clearly indicates that Take-Two can't make a pro football simulation using current NFL players. Now, whether or not they actually do so remains to be seen.
    Blzer
    I don't know the answer for sure, but I'd say that the NFL wouldn't be too happy about that if they're already in bed with them in another light, especially if team customization was a possibility. It might not bode well with that other deal they have.
    Why is everyone assuming that the NFL will care? They're getting paid. As long as Take Two doesn't "screw it up", the NFL will not be that involved.
    What specific rights does the NFL have to license to EA? Team names, team logos, stadiums, usage of trademark terms like super bowl, etc. I understand. But what would stop 2K from making an 11 vs 11 football game, 16 game season, same or similar rules, same cities, similar style playbooks, different logos/team names, 2000 active football NFLPA players (per press release), full franchise mode, etc. It doesn't have to be "arcadey" with weird player models and animations. EA can't possibly have an exclusive license on this type of stuff.
    In other words, APF 2K21 with current NFLPA players.
    Wascally314
    What specific rights does the NFL have to license to EA? Team names, team logos, stadiums, usage of trademark terms like super bowl, etc. I understand. But what would stop 2K from making an 11 vs 11 football game, 16 game season, same or similar rules, same cities, similar style playbooks, different logos/team names, 2000 active football NFLPA players (per press release), full franchise mode, etc. It doesn't have to be "arcadey" with weird player models and animations. EA can't possibly have an exclusive license on this type of stuff.
    In other words, APF 2K21 with current NFLPA players.

    We have zero idea what 2k can and cannot do. Not a single person outside of the NFL, EA, and 2k knows what 2k is allowed to do. That might be completely possible and something 2k does. The contracts might also say that 2k isn't allowed to do anything remotely like that.
    2k is only going to be allowed to do what the NFL said they can do when signing the contract.
    We have absolutely no idea what the NFL, EA, and 2k define as simulation football. It could be something very simple, it could be a very complex set of rules. Everyone here obviously has their own guess as to what simulation means, but nobody here actuaally knows.
    You have to look at this from the business side of things. EA's license with the NFL could limit as much or as little as they wanted it too. EA's exclusive license really could limit 2k from doing everything in your post. It could limit none of that.
    canes21
    Do we actually have any idea what simulation means? I don't think it's been outlined what the NFL and EA defines as simulation. I would assume they have very certain limits that 2k has to work around.
    Simulation could literally limit 2k from having a franchise mode and nothing more. It could limit them from using 11 v 11, 4 downs, etc.
    We can guess what simulation is, but the truth is we have no idea, only EA, the NFL, and 2k know what the contracts define as simulation.

    I'd be shocked if the definition of "simulation football" is not carefully defined in the contract between the NFL and 2K Sports (and that EA effectively signed off on it). Otherwise it would be like asking a company to build a car, and then present it for review to see if it is too similar to existing vehicles built by this other company. You'd never wasted the time and money unless you knew you could actually go on to mass produce the car you built.
    Now, it would be cool if 2K Sports produced a more arcade style game with the full NFL team names/logos/uniforms and actual players AND also gave us a generic simulation football game with the actual NFL players (thanks to the NFLPA license) but with fake team names/logos/uniforms.
    This will let them test the waters to see what combination of licenses and game styles will actually sell. I'd be perfectly content to play as the "Miami Sharks" using the actual NFL players for example. I'd be much less inclined to buy a 7 versus7 arcade style game even if it had the actual NFL players combined with the actual team names/logos/uniforms.
    I'm hoping we get some solid news by the end of this year on what 2K Sports has planned for 2021. I'd also add that there are several indie football game developers who are making fair progress on creating simulation football games. The more support they get, the faster they can improve their games.
    I just don't see anything like APF with just the players. 2K didn't pay for the NFL license to make non-NFL games. I guess you could make the argument they could make multiple games at the same time, but that's not easy.
    I think we are looking too deep into this. When they got the NFL license back, they always intended to secure the NFLPA license. It was just a matter of time. A NFL game without real players wouldn't sell well, and neither will a game with the NFL teams and logos and all that stuff, won't sell well without the players. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that would be the case. I know a lot of people here would disagree with that, and there is a large community of people who hate Madden, but it's not bigger than the average person who buys Madden every year just because it's the new Madden. You might pull some of their fan base away, but not enough to compete with millions of copies sold every year.
    This was always gonna happen, and there is no ulterior motives here. I'm sure simulation is clearly defined between the NFL and 2K. And they will follow that line. Even though they may technically be able to make a sim with just the NFL players, I don't believe it would happen because they don't want the NFL breathing down their necks.
    They screwed up with the NFL in 2004 and it cost them to essentially lose the license, I know there was more to it than that, but it played a large role. Now, 16 years later, they finally get the license back, they aren't gonna do anything that could remotely piss off the NFL.
    ksuttonjr76
    Why is everyone assuming that the NFL will care? They're getting paid. As long as Take Two doesn't "screw it up", the NFL will not be that involved.

    Because they'd argue that making a game like that should cost them more money than they're charging 2K right now.
    Let's say that I am the world's supplier of lemons and some company wants to buy imports of my supply to sell off, but I state that unless they pay a hefty fee, the only way they can do it is they make it into lemonade and sell it that way (because of my exclusivity deal with another company). So they agree to the deal and sell lemonade, but they also sell lemon seeds on the side so that customers can instead grow their own lemons.
    Now they're doubly profiting off my supply without paying for the back-end of what I allowed them to do, and my other company that I have an exclusive lemons deal with is losing sales as well. This is all despite the fact they never actually did sell lemons to people. I'm not being granted the money I should be as a result, and this exploit is a damper on my business and value that I have defined for myself.
    Or let's put it the other way: if 2K got what EA has and vice-versa, how would you feel if EA came back with "Madden Football 22" with this kind of concept, stealing sales away from 2K who paid a fortune to have a strikingly similar product? The NFL would also be none too happy about the idea that they could have made another billion dollars as well if EA played ball the right way.
    PVarck31
    They screwed up with the NFL in 2004 and it cost them to essentially lose the license, I know there was more to it than that, but it played a large role. Now, 16 years later, they finally get the license back, they aren't gonna do anything that could remotely piss off the NFL.

    Hmm, I've never heard this before. How so? Was it the $20 price tag?
    I was actually hoping that they didn't make an agreement with the NFLPA, and instead created fictional players with big personalities. This way, they could show the NFL that they could create a better game than Madden, and maybe, they could get the license next time. Now, it is hard to believe they can do anything but create a non 11 vs 11 game, with mostly non-simulated and unrealistic play. Which is more like Madden than Electronic Arts will admit to. 
    robrien13
    I was actually hoping that they didn't make an agreement with the NFLPA, and instead created fictional players with big personalities. This way, they could show the NFL that they could create a better game than Madden, and maybe, they could get the license next time. Now, it is hard to believe they can do anything but create a non 11 vs 11 game, with mostly non-simulated and unrealistic play. Which is more like Madden than Electronic Arts will admit to.*

    I was hoping for the XFL, but then the stupid pandemic happened. I would've happily had that and played that over an EA NFL game, myself.
    On that note, I'm trying to play APF 2K8 with NFL rosters, but when it's just their names and attributes without being called the right people or having accurate faces and such, it just doesn't work the way I'd like it to. Plus, I despise APF's presentation.
    That's partially why I asked about the ESPN license. As much as I don't care about ESPN these days, I'm not a fan of 2K Sports' branding for a presentation package. It might just have to do with the color red, I'm not sure. When they were SEGA Sports, it looked absolutely legit.
    Blzer
    I was hoping for the XFL, but then the stupid pandemic happened. I would've happily had that and played that over an EA NFL game, myself.
    On that note, I'm trying to play APF 2K8 with NFL rosters, but when it's just their names and attributes without being called the right people or having accurate faces and such, it just doesn't work the way I'd like it to. Plus, I despise APF's presentation.
    That's partially why I asked about the ESPN license. As much as I don't care about ESPN these days, I'm not a fan of 2K Sports' branding for a presentation package. It might just have to do with the color red, I'm not sure. When they were SEGA Sports, it looked absolutely legit.

    Main reaaon I wanted XFL to succeed was because of the rumors about a video game.
    I liked how EA implemented ESPN in the college games. NCAA Basketball 10 was one of my favorite broadcast packages with the ESPN and CBS packages. Those packages felt unique. I don't know why more sports games don't have broadcast packages
    Blzer
    Hmm, I've never heard this before. How so? Was it the $20 price tag?

    That was the biggest part of it. Also they released the game in late July to get out ahead of Madden. EA was forced to cut their price of the game from the normal, at the time, price of $49.99 to $39.99. It was a huge cluster you know what. It cause a chain reaction all the way up to the suits at the NFL. I imagine after this the NFL said it would just be easier to do an exclusive license for more money than they were being paid by 2K and EA combined. And even if 2K could have competed with EA's offer, I bet the NFL would have preferred EA after all the crap that happened that year.
    PVarck31
    I just don't see anything like APF with just the players. 2K didn't pay for the NFL license to make non-NFL games. I guess you could make the argument they could make multiple games at the same time, but that's not easy.
    I think we are looking too deep into this. When they got the NFL license back, they always intended to secure the NFLPA license. It was just a matter of time. A NFL game without real players wouldn't sell well, and neither will a game with the NFL teams and logos and all that stuff, won't sell well without the players. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that would be the case. I know a lot of people here would disagree with that, and there is a large community of people who hate Madden, but it's not bigger than the average person who buys Madden every year just because it's the new Madden. You might pull some of their fan base away, but not enough to compete with millions of copies sold every year.
    This was always gonna happen, and there is no ulterior motives here. I'm sure simulation is clearly defined between the NFL and 2K. And they will follow that line. Even though they may technically be able to make a sim with just the NFL players, I don't believe it would happen because they don't want the NFL breathing down their necks.
    They screwed up with the NFL in 2004 and it cost them to essentially lose the license, I know there was more to it than that, but it played a large role. Now, 16 years later, they finally get the license back, they aren't gonna do anything that could remotely piss off the NFL.
    No, Sega "screwed up" not Take - Two or 2K Sports. They tried to gain more marketshare from EA, but that move also (in the eyes of the NFL) "devalued" their brand, also EA had been coveting an exclusive license at least going back a year prior.
    Anyway, I'm sure that Take - Two & 2K Sports want to maintain a good (or great) working relationship with the NFL. I'm sure they also want, maybe at some point, to gain the "simulation" license & currently they have nothing concrete to show that is viable or feasible (from a logistical standpoint).
    An All-Pro title - if they even to go forward with a sequel - would be an example that they can make such a title. Again, that doesn't mean they'll actually decide to do that yet it is possible (yet very slim).
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    Yes. I forgot it was Sega that published the game along with 2K sports at the time. So pick one or both, doesn't really matter. And I'm sure EA wanted the exclusive license for years. But what I said was basically what you said about devaluing the product. They pissed off the NFL. And you don't piss off the NFL.
    PVarck31
    Yes. I forgot it was Sega that published the game along with 2K sports at the time. And I'm sure EA wanted the exclusive license for years. But what I said was basically what you said about devaluing the product. They pissed off the NFL. And you don't piss off the NFL.

    Wow, yeah I had no idea this was a thing.
    Then I double-down on my point about why they don't want to backdoor some simulation loophole against the NFL's wishes.
    PVarck31
    Yes. I forgot it was Sega that published the game along with 2K sports at the time. So pick one or both, doesn't really matter. And I'm sure EA wanted the exclusive license for years. But what I said was basically what you said about devaluing the product. They pissed off the NFL. And you don't piss off the NFL.

    Yeah wasn't there reports that Take-two/Sega offered more money for the original exclusive license. Sega/2k pissed off NFL that more money didn't matter. They went with the safer and more revelant EA brand
    PVarck31
    Yes. I forgot it was Sega that published the game along with 2K sports at the time. So pick one or both, doesn't really matter. And I'm sure EA wanted the exclusive license for years. But what I said was basically what you said about devaluing the product. They pissed off the NFL. And you don't piss off the NFL.
    Sega was the publisher & Visual Concepts was the developer. I believe 2K Sports (the subsidiary) didn't come to be until the acquisition by Take - Two Interactive of the 2K Sports brand from Sega. Sega unknowingly shot themselves in the foot but they were desperate to make an impact in the market.
    But, "they" (meaning Sega) are no longer involved in the brand or licensing agreement.
    Greg & Jeff Thomas are still the heads of 2K Sports, but I'm almost sure the aggressive pricing was made by individuals above them (at Sega). Clearly, someone in the NFL head office sees what 2K has done since leaving Sega, mostly with the NBA license, & wants to try to gain more marketshare.
    And I'm almost sure Take - Two & 2K Sports see this "non-simulation" license as a chance to "re-establish" themselves with the NFL.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    zello144
    Take Two got lucky that VC and Sega decided to call their sports games 2k lol.

    And why would that be? You mean because it's universal recognition across every sport, and NBA 2K's success will lend toward 2K football success?
    ksuttonjr76
    Why is everyone assuming that the NFL will care? They're getting paid. As long as Take Two doesn't "screw it up", the NFL will not be that involved.

    At this point it's very irrelevant how much involvement the NFL has.
    What's being lost is that there is now a contract EA has that says they are the only publisher allowed to make a simulation NFL game.
    Wouldn't take much for EA to send 2k a cease and desist related to any sort of game they think could compete with them. Good luck to 2k for getting over any sort of legal dispute over the semantics of what the word "simulation" means.
    NOT to mention that now that 2k has an agreement with the NFL there is no way they would do anything to ruffle their feathers. You may say the NFL doesn't care (and maybe that's true once they get their money) but you better believe no one has any interest in being involved in unnecessary litigation.
    kehlis
    Wouldn't take much for EA to send 2k a cease and desist related to any sort of game they think could compete with them. Good luck to 2k for getting over any sort of legal dispute over the semantics of what the word "simulation" means.

    Yeah, but what if they make a carbon-copy NFL Blitz game, they make ten times more money than Madden does, and out of feeling threatened EA still issues that C&D order? After all, the semantics of "simulation" isn't so easily definable.
    Obviously that is an extreme example, but this is what I don't like about this thing. It's like the gray area of the MPAA delivering certain film ratings. I know they have their definitions and thresholds, but it's not always so easily black-and-white from the outside looking in. I know a movie with three F-bombs that is still PG-13 (Dunkirk is one), and plenty of movies without any that are R-rated (The Matrix, for example).
    Hopefully 2K knows exactly what they can and can't do so EA doesn't come swooping in after as a result of whatever happens, or so they don't somehow pay more money to strengthen the verbiage later.
    illwill10
    Main question now is what does "non-simulation" mean? Since they said more info will be revealed at later deal, I expect to hear more info on games starting end of this year to early next year.
    Going slightly off-topic, seeing the OneTeam helped facilitate licensing deal, I wonder if they could help facilitate a NIL licensing deal for college athletes for a potential return of NCAA sports titles if NCAA lightens up and allows group licensing in NIL bill.

    Blzer
    After all, the semantics of "simulation" isn't so easily definable.

    For us.
    But for the parties who negotiated and the lawyers who wrote the contracts? I’d be shocked if there weren’t specific guidelines spelled out.
    Blzer
    Yeah, but what if they make a carbon-copy NFL Blitz game, they make ten times more money than Madden does, and out of feeling threatened EA still issues that C&D order? After all, the semantics of "simulation" isn't so easily definable.
    Obviously that is an extreme example, but this is what I don't like about this thing. It's like the gray area of the MPAA delivering certain film ratings. I know they have their definitions and thresholds, but it's not always so easily black-and-white from the outside looking in. I know a movie with three F-bombs that is still PG-13 (Dunkirk is one), and plenty of movies without any that are R-rated (The Matrix, for example).
    Hopefully 2K knows exactly what they can and can't do so EA doesn't come swooping in after as a result of whatever happens, or so they don't somehow pay more money to strengthen the verbiage later.

    I think if there is one thing we are safe to assume, it's that 2k, EA, and the NFL all have a list of items that are allowed and not allowed in 2k's game to maintain non-simulation. It's silly to think that they're saying the word simulation, but there's nothing written as to what that means.
    As soon as 2k was in talks with getting the non-sim license I guarantee they knew exactly what they could and couldn't do with their game.
    Blzer
    Yeah, but what if they make a carbon-copy NFL Blitz game, they make ten times more money than Madden does, and out of feeling threatened EA still issues that C&D order? After all, the semantics of "simulation" isn't so easily definable.
    Obviously that is an extreme example, but this is what I don't like about this thing. It's like the gray area of the MPAA delivering certain film ratings. I know they have their definitions and thresholds, but it's not always so easily black-and-white from the outside looking in. I know a movie with three F-bombs that is still PG-13 (Dunkirk is one), and plenty of movies without any that are R-rated (The Matrix, for example).
    Hopefully 2K knows exactly what they can and can't do so EA doesn't come swooping in after as a result of whatever happens, or so they don't somehow pay more money to strengthen the verbiage later.

    I would be willing to bet that it has been outlined very clearly as to what kind of game they can make and what kind of game they cannot make. I don't think 2k is stupid enough to enter a deal like this without exact verbiage so it's open for interpretation for everyone involved which ends up with them getting sued, cease and desist, and everything else in between.
    This information just hasn't been made available to the public which is why we're sitting here speculating on what it could be. It's anyone guess at this point, which some have been good and others not so much. My hope is that we get thoroughly surprised, but the game also gives 2k a good base to expand upon in the future. Hopefully, something comes out about it soon but until then we can only speculate.
    The EA deal does not give exclusivity to making an 11vs11 football game.
    Neither EA nor NFL or NCAA “own” legal exclusivity to American style football.
    They simply have legality over the Teams/Logos of their respective leagues, that’s it.
    Maximum Football is evident that an 11vs11 American football is viable.
    The NFLPA and it’s players are a separate entity/product and 2K can reflect that product as accurately as they choose, meaning their models don’t have to be in a cartoonish Blitz Football manner.
    2nd since there’s revenue involved that’s geared strictly towards the Players whom are always in constant battles with NFL owners for more inclusive piece of the NFL money pie, it stands to believe that this financial deal for the players wouldn’t come about with a bunch of limitations imposed by these same NFL owners.
    26yrs ago at my Chargers tryout, the talk was players felt the OVR $$$ distribution should be at least a 55/45% split in favor of the players since they drive the sport.
    - can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard players say around this topic, “we are the league”
    - the new CBA for players is looking at 48.5-48.8% increase.
    Naturally owners are not going to go for that so what we’re seeing today with these large contract with so much guaranteed up front dollars, is players forcing NFL owners to pull more out their piece of the revenue pie to assist with Cap increases to support these big player contracts from their top marketing players.
    I’m sure the EA/NFL Licensing deal gave the NFLPA a small revenue piece, but this deal with 2K is definitely geared towards the players.
    Even with all this and not knowing any of the specific verbiage, still will have to wait and see how 2K intends to use the Licensing deal.
    I love how we all get stuck on what the meaning of "simulation football" means. I am not a lawyer nor I have I read the entire contract EA and the NFL signed, but I do use EA and the NFL agreement in teaching my Economics class. We do a case study each year no exclusive agreements and monopoly laws. I use EA as an example as most all my students play Madden. All the resources I have found on the deal between EA and the NFL is that EA has the exclusive right to make a football game using the NFL logo, NFL teams, and NFL owned properties and rights (ie Super Bowl, or Stadiums).
    I have yet to find anything that said they are the only ones that can make a football game with real football rules. This allows for games like Maximum Football and Axis Football to enter the market place. They are a simulation of football but they are not a simulation of the NFL.
    Whatever 2K is making they are banking on the fact people will be more out to buy their game if they have real players but with fake teams. I have seen videos of Maximum Football where people used their logo editor to add NFL logos. I would not think a small company like Canuck would risk lawsuit because it would put them out of business.
    I for one would buy a game with real players with fake teams if it has a good franchise mode.
    jbrew2411
    I love how we all get stuck on what the meaning of "simulation football" means. I am not a lawyer nor I have I read the entire contract EA and the NFL signed, but I do use EA and the NFL agreement in teaching my Economics class. We do a case study each year no exclusive agreements and monopoly laws. I use EA as an example as most all my students play Madden. All the resources I have found on the deal between EA and the NFL is that EA has the exclusive right to make a football game using the NFL logo, NFL teams, and NFL owned properties and rights (ie Super Bowl, or Stadiums).
    I have yet to find anything that said they are the only ones that can make a football game with real football rules. This allows for games like Maximum Football and Axis Football to enter the market place. They are a simulation of football but they are not a simulation of the NFL.
    Whatever 2K is making they are banking on the fact people will be more out to buy their game if they have real players but with fake teams. I have seen videos of Maximum Football where people used their logo editor to add NFL logos. I would not think a small company like Canuck would risk lawsuit because it would put them out of business.
    I for one would buy a game with real players with fake teams if it has a good franchise mode.

    I don't necessarily think 2k is going to be banking on people buying a game with real players and fake teams. They went out and got the NFL license and struck a deal with the PA. They would need both of those secured to make an NFL Playgrounds game. If 2k's plan was to create a simulation game with NFL players, but fake teams, then why go out and secure the NFL license also? It only makes sense if 2k is going to release two different games each year, but I don't think thats what is going to happen. I want it to, but I don't expect 2k to make NFL Playgrounds and another sim game with real players.
    Pray_iv_m3rcy
    I'm not so quick to imagine player models that look like NFL Blitz. I mean why get the NFLPA license if you cant use a players likeness?

    They still need the agreement with the PA to use real NFL players even if they made NFL Blitz type models.
    jbrew2411
    I love how we all get stuck on what the meaning of "simulation football" means. I am not a lawyer nor I have I read the entire contract EA and the NFL signed, but I do use EA and the NFL agreement in teaching my Economics class. We do a case study each year no exclusive agreements and monopoly laws. I use EA as an example as most all my students play Madden. All the resources I have found on the deal between EA and the NFL is that EA has the exclusive right to make a football game using the NFL logo, NFL teams, and NFL owned properties and rights (ie Super Bowl, or Stadiums).
    I have yet to find anything that said they are the only ones that can make a football game with real football rules. This allows for games like Maximum Football and Axis Football to enter the market place. They are a simulation of football but they are not a simulation of the NFL.
    Whatever 2K is making they are banking on the fact people will be more out to buy their game if they have real players but with fake teams. I have seen videos of Maximum Football where people used their logo editor to add NFL logos. I would not think a small company like Canuck would risk lawsuit because it would put them out of business.
    I for one would buy a game with real players with fake teams if it has a good franchise mode.

    We're stuck on what simulation means because that is the only term and specific we know. You haven't read the contract because it isn't public.
    Question for you though, why would 2K have paid to acquire the NFL license if they were planning on a game they couldn't use it with?
    If I'm understanding your premise, that is what you're suggesting they are planning on doing.
    It would be interesting to know how "sim" is defined by EA, the NFL, and NFLPA. Is MUT, Superstar KO, or Draft Champions sim? Or what about Super Mega Baseball? Is that considered "sim"?
    You would think they've done their homework and have a good idea what they can and can't do, and how far they can push the "non-simulation" aspect. May end up being a corny mobile game, but I'm curious to see how this plays out.
    kehlis
    We're stuck on what simulation means because that is the only term and specific we know. You haven't read the contract because it isn't public.
    Question for you though, why would 2K have paid to acquire the NFL license if they were planning on a game they couldn't use it with?
    If I'm understanding your premise, that is what you're suggesting they are planning on doing.

    It could be that they're making multiple games. One of them could be like what jbrew2411 mentioned, and then another could be a Playgrounds-like arcade format.
    Blzer
    It could be that they're making multiple games. One of them could be like what jbrew2411 mentioned, and then another could be a Playgrounds-like arcade format.

    So to play this back.
    They finally got a new agreement with the NFL.
    We know there is an agreement with EA to make the only "simulation" game.
    And you realistically think 2K is going to be a rebel and create a simulation game with stipulations? Just play that through for a second because it makes zero sense.
    (Think about it from a business perspective, not a consumer perspective)
    kehlis
    So to play this back.
    They finally got a new agreement with the NFL.
    We know there is an agreement with EA to make the only "simulation" game.
    And you realistically think 2K is going to be a rebel and create a simulation game with stipulations? Just play that through for a second because it makes zero sense.
    (Think about it from a business perspective, not a consumer perspective)

    Only way I see it being a possibility is if the NFL gave 2k the go ahead to do something along these lines. Go make a simulation football game with no NFL branding, but only NFL players. Prove you can make a quality football game and then a few years down the line when the license with EA expires the NFL will make it non-exclusive for a certain price.
    Now do I actually see this as being what happened? No.
    We're getting NFL Playgrounds and maybe a card game. I don't expect anything else.
    canes21
    Only way I see it being a possibility is if the NFL gave 2k the go ahead to do something along these lines. Go make a simulation football game with no NFL branding, but only NFL players. Prove you can make a quality football game and then a few years down the line when the license with EA expires the NFL will make it non-exclusive for a certain price.
    Now do I actually see this as being what happened? No.
    We're getting NFL Playgrounds and maybe a card game. I don't expect anything else.

    Everything about this makes sense other than the fact that 2k is paying for the NFL license. Not sure why they would take on that expense for an unproven game and not using the NFL license they are paying for.
    kehlis
    Everything about this makes sense other than the fact that 2k is paying for the NFL license. Not sure why they would take on that expense for an unproven game and not using the NFL license they are paying for.

    The NFL license would be for NFL Playgrounds in this hypothetical situation if they were creating that along with the simulation game that had generic branding with real players.
    kehlis
    So to play this back.
    They finally got a new agreement with the NFL.
    We know there is an agreement with EA to make the only "simulation" game.
    And you realistically think 2K is going to be a rebel and create a simulation game with stipulations? Just play that through for a second because it makes zero sense.
    (Think about it from a business perspective, not a consumer perspective)

    No, I don't. Hopefully you saw my earlier post using the lemonade analogy. I think they want to maintain a good partnership with the NFL, and using their efforts on a backdoor might not necessarily bode very well with that.
    I was just suggesting that could be a reason for somebody to sign both licenses but not necessarily use them synchronously.
    jbrew2411
    I love how we all get stuck on what the meaning of "simulation football" means. I am not a lawyer nor I have I read the entire contract EA and the NFL signed, but I do use EA and the NFL agreement in teaching my Economics class. We do a case study each year no exclusive agreements and monopoly laws. I use EA as an example as most all my students play Madden. All the resources I have found on the deal between EA and the NFL is that EA has the exclusive right to make a football game using the NFL logo, NFL teams, and NFL owned properties and rights (ie Super Bowl, or Stadiums).
    I have yet to find anything that said they are the only ones that can make a football game with real football rules. This allows for games like Maximum Football and Axis Football to enter the market place. They are a simulation of football but they are not a simulation of the NFL.
    Whatever 2K is making they are banking on the fact people will be more out to buy their game if they have real players but with fake teams. I have seen videos of Maximum Football where people used their logo editor to add NFL logos. I would not think a small company like Canuck would risk lawsuit because it would put them out of business.
    I for one would buy a game with real players with fake teams if it has a good franchise mode.
    My thoughts on what differentiates simulation from arcade is the accuracy of stats and physics within the game. For example in Tecmo Bowl you could make an 80 yard run breaking tackles left and right. You could run for 300 yards or pass for 600 yards in one game doing things in an exaggerated way but still having the fun of football just not an actual simulation because of the inflated stats. I think 2K's football game will be 11on11 just the players will have superpower abilities therefore making it arcade.
    tsbmolina
    My thoughts on what differentiates simulation from arcade is the accuracy of stats and physics within the game. For example in Tecmo Bowl you could make an 80 yard run breaking tackles left and right. You could run for 300 yards or pass for 600 yards in one game doing things in an exaggerated way but still having the fun of football just not an actual simulation because of the inflated stats. I think 2K's football game will be 11on11 just the players will have superpower abilities therefore making it arcade.

    Madden already has super powers in their simulation game, though.
    tsbmolina
    My thoughts on what differentiates simulation from arcade is the accuracy of stats and physics within the game. For example in Tecmo Bowl you could make an 80 yard run breaking tackles left and right. You could run for 300 yards or pass for 600 yards in one game doing things in an exaggerated way but still having the fun of football just not an actual simulation because of the inflated stats. I think 2K's football game will be 11on11 just the players will have superpower abilities therefore making it arcade.

    Our interpretation of what simulation means is 1000% irrelevant.
    kehlis
    Everything about this makes sense other than the fact that 2k is paying for the NFL license. Not sure why they would take on that expense for an unproven game and not using the NFL license they are paying for.

    Another thing that doesn’t make sense to me is why would the NFLPA piss off one of their (if not their) longest tenured business partner by allowing that to happen?
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    redsox4evur
    Another thing that doesn’t make sense to me is why would the NFLPA piss off one of their (if not their) longest tenured business partner by allowing that to happen?
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    EA? The NFLPA can piss off EA as much as they want, EA is still going to come and get the rights to use all of the players in Madden. Madden is going nowhere and the NFL and the NFLPA have a ridiculous amount of power on their side with regards to EA.
    kehlis
    So to play this back.
    They finally got a new agreement with the NFL.
    We know there is an agreement with EA to make the only "simulation" game.
    And you realistically think 2K is going to be a rebel and create a simulation game with stipulations?

    Take-Two wouldn't be "rebelling" against anything. They don't need the NFL's blessing to make a pro football simulation with the NFLPA. Those are two seperate entities and thus two seperate contractual agreements.
    canes21
    If 2k's plan was to create a simulation game with NFL players, but fake teams, then why go out and secure the NFL license also? It only makes sense if 2k is going to release two different games each year, but I don't think that's what is going to happen.

    Given Saber Interactive's previous pattern with major sports-licensed titles (namely NBA Playgrounds and now WWE Battlegrounds), their NFL game would not be an annual release. So, if anything the NFL "Playgrounds" title would release in 2021 and the NFLPA-licensed sim football title 2022.
    canes21
    EA? The NFLPA can piss off EA as much as they want, EA is still going to come and get the rights to use all of the players in Madden. Madden is going nowhere and the NFL and the NFLPA have a ridiculous amount of power on their side with regards to EA.

    He (hypothetically, I’m assuming) asked why they would, not if they could. Obviously they could, but if they’re happy with their current deal why would they? What’s the incentive?
    SmashMan
    He (hypothetically, I’m assuming) asked why they would, not if they could. Obviously they could, but if they’re happy with their current deal why would they? What’s the incentive?

    In this hypothetical situation the incentive would be making more money for the players while knowing full well that EA is basically going to need your PA for Madden because we all know full well EA would never make Madden without the real players.
    redsox4evur
    Another thing that doesn’t make sense to me is why would the NFLPA piss off one of their (if not their) longest tenured business partner by allowing that to happen?
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    As far as my opinionated *** is concerned, the only thing the NFL has ever gotten from EA is their money, and nothing else like "a good game" or "awesome representation of their product."
    What does the NFL gain by bringing 2K back into the picture? More money, for one. But again, as far as my opinionated *** is concerned, they are also getting: (1) a different kind of product; (2) potentially a better product than Madden; (3) perhaps a better partner to deal with six years from now.
    For the past 15 years, I've been asking why the NFL would turn their back on 2K and do the deal with EA. Besides money, I didn't know they shed any animosity in 2K's way until just a couple of days ago. Here's to hoping that can be mended, and we can see 2K be a proud partner of theirs again.
    Kanobi
    Given Saber Interactive's previous pattern with major sports-licensed titles (namely NBA Playgrounds and now WWE Battlegrounds), their NFL game would not be an annual release. So, if anything the NFL "Playgrounds" title would release in 2021 and the NFLPA-licensed sim football title 2022.

    If this is the route they took, this would be my guess as well. If eight months from now all we hear about is a Playgrounds game, I'm still holding onto hope they're doing something else with the NFLPA license down the line.
    However...
    Kanobi
    Take-Two wouldn't be "rebelling" against anything. They don't need the NFL's blessing to make a pro football simulation with the NFLPA. Those are two seperate entities and thus two seperate contractual agreements.

    If a football sim with real players and team/stadium/league customization to simulate a NFL season/franchise knockoff, that would certainly be ruffling feathers.
    Kanobi
    Take-Two wouldn't be "rebelling" against anything. They don't need the NFL's blessing to make a pro football simulation with the NFLPA. Those are two seperate entities and thus two seperate contractual agreements.

    So do you believe EA would be okay if 2K put together anything close to what we would consider to be a simulation?
    I really respect your opinion but I can't imagine you think this is a realistic proposition.
    kehlis
    So do you believe EA would be okay if 2K put together anything close to what we would consider to be a simulation?
    I really respect your opinion but I can't imagine you think this is a realistic proposition.
    Look, this has happened in the past - when EA made Madden 64 sans the NFL license which was held by Acclaim & the Quarterback Club game on Nintendo 64 - and the NFL gladly continued to work with EA.
    Now, that doesn't mean it is likely to happen again or that the NFL would be pleased if 2K made this move. It just shows that these situations have occurred in the past & nothing would legally be stopping Take - Two from doing so if they chose to.
    The NFL had the ability to make the license non-exclusive, but decided to remain with their longest tenured partner (that makes sense). Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your perspective, that leaves a desire in the market for competition that indie development houses (Axis & Canuck Sports) & 2K Sports are or may attempt to fill.
    The marketing & branding without the official NFL shield would be difficult, but I don't believe it is impossible.
    And they could still "appease" the NFL by pushing a solid SuperCard & "Playgrounds" esque title with official NFL branding, teams & logos.
    How EA "feels" about it is actually irrelevant since Take-Two has come to terms with the necessary license holders. That doesn't involve EA IF - huge if - they decide to greenlight a APF sequel and they've (meaning EA) done everything in the past to remove Take - Two/2K Sports from the market.
    Blocking them from signing more HOF'ers, snatching up the Arena & NCAA licenses (which were exclusive for a time). Even the rumors of "hostile takeover" years ago similar to the bull**** they attempted with Ubisoft.
    So, I'm sure the executives at Take - Two & 2K Sports could give two, three, four or a million ****s about how EA "feels."
    Pardon if my tone comes across as hostile. That is in no way my intention but the reality is EA has dreaded the day Take - Two/2K Sports/Visual Concepts (if they are a development house assigned to one of the games) would return to the football space. In particular with any NFL or NFLPA licensing in tow.
    They could settle for small fries like NFL Playgrounds & NFL SuperCard, but they'll eventually want something with a wider scope that can be monetized, IMO. Like NBA 2K & the much maligned MyCareer, MyTeam & Park experiences.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    kehlis
    So do you believe EA would be okay if 2K put together anything close to what we would consider to be a simulation?
    I really respect your opinion but I can't imagine you think this is a realistic proposition.

    If Take-Two used the NFLPA license to make a pro football "sim" using current players (with fictional teams, stadiums, logos, etc) then legally EA couldn't do anything about it.
    Based on what we know, it is only if Take-Two attempted a football "sim" using the NFL license that EA would have legal grounds to intervene.
    J_Posse
    Look, this has happened in the past - when EA made Madden 64 sans the NFL license which was held by Acclaim & the Quarterback Club game on Nintendo 64 - and the NFL gladly continued to work with EA.
    Now, that doesn't mean it is likely to happen again or that the NFL would be pleased if 2K made this move. It just shows that these situations have occurred in the past & nothing would legally be stopping Take - Two from doing so if they chose to.
    The NFL had the ability to make the license non-exclusive, but decided to remain with their longest tenured partner (that makes sense). Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your perspective, that leaves a desire in the market for competition that indie development houses (Axis & Canuck Sports) & 2K Sports are or may attempt to fill.
    The marketing & branding without the official NFL shield would be difficult, but I don't believe it is impossible.
    And they could still "appease" the NFL by pushing a solid SuperCard & "Playgrounds" esque title with official NFL branding, teams & logos.
    How EA "feels" about it is actually irrelevant since Take-Two has come to terms with the necessary license holders. That doesn't involve EA IF - huge if - they decide to greenlight a APF sequel and they've (meaning EA) done everything in the past to remove Take - Two/2K Sports from the market.
    Blocking them from signing more HOF'ers, snatching up the Arena & NCAA licenses (which were exclusive for a time). Even the rumors of "hostile takeover" years ago similar to the bull**** they attempted with Ubisoft.
    So, I'm sure the executives at Take - Two & 2K Sports could give two, three, four or a million ****s about how EA "feels."
    Pardon if my tone comes across as hostile. That is in no way my intention but the reality is EA has dreaded the day Take - Two/2K Sports/Visual Concepts (if they are a development house assigned to one of the games) would return to the football space. In particular with any NFL or NFLPA licensing in tow.
    They could settle for small fries like NFL Playgrounds & NFL SuperCard, but they'll eventually want something with a wider scope that can be monetized, IMO. Like NBA 2K & the much maligned MyCareer, MyTeam & Park experiences.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation

    Kanobi
    If Take-Two used the NFLPA license to make a pro football "sim" using current players (with fictional teams, stadiums, logos, etc) then legally EA couldn't do anything about it.
    Based on what we know, it is only if Take-Two attempted a football "sim" using the NFL license that EA would have legal grounds to intervene.

    Let me know when it happens.
    Kanobi
    If Take-Two used the NFLPA license to make a pro football "sim" using current players (with fictional teams, stadiums, logos, etc) then legally EA couldn't do anything about it.
    Based on what we know, it is only if Take-Two attempted a football "sim" using the NFL license that EA would have legal grounds to intervene.

    I disagree with the core premise of your argument that the NFLPA - EA licensing agreement isn't exclusive.
    As I posted earlier in the thread, the Polygon article from May about the NFLPA - EA license extension doesn't agree with your take that their arrangement isn't exclusive with respect to simulation games (again, emphasis mine):

    The exclusivity in EA’s agreements applies only to simulation titles; the contract language says that “arcade-style games, youth games, and casual/mobile games” are open to anyone.
    We obviously can't see the contracts ourselves, but I don't think the reporter for Polygon chose the word "agreements" (plural) by accident.
    Second, the NFLPA's press release about their own agreement with EA also explicitly called out EA Sports Madden NFL with the words "exclusive" and "simulation" in the same sentence. I similarly do not think that is accidental, either.
    Speaking more practically rather than trying to analyze privately-negotiated legal documents we can't see and will never see, though: even if the NFLPA - EA license agreement doesn't contain a "simulation" clause similar to the NFL - EA agreement (which, again, I don't think that's the case, but let's roll with it), I sincerely doubt Take 2's legal department would greenlight anything which could potentially invite a lawsuit from Electronic Arts or the NFL. Regardless whether such lawsuits would ultimately have legal merit and withstand judicial scrutiny, lawsuits take time and more importantly money to resolve. Billion-dollar companies generally prefer to not pay lawyers if they don't have to.
    Maybe we will all be pleasantly surprised a few years down the line, but from where we currently stand I see no reason to hold out hope for the NFL 2K successor a lot of people here want to see.
    CM Hooe
    I disagree with the core premise of your argument that the NFLPA - EA licensing agreement isn't exclusive.
    As I posted earlier in the thread, the Polygon article from May about the NFLPA - EA license extension doesn't agree with your take that their arrangement isn't exclusive with respect to simulation games (again, emphasis mine):We obviously can't see the contracts ourselves, but I don't think the reporter for Polygon chose the word "agreements" (plural) by accident.

    Your earlier post wasn't overlooked.
    I think we are just arguing in circles at this point. There is a strong, if not definite, possibility that Take - Two will only greenlight an arcade game - be it Blitz, Street or "Playgrounds" esque - and all our "wishful thinking" is all for not.
    That is actually the most plausible outcome, but the NFL license (even the "non-simulation" one) is expensive & we've all seen that those "non-simulation" titles don't have much growth potential, make little in the way of revenue or marketshare & aren't iterated on annually (at least on console).
    It could be in Take - Two/2K Sports' best interest to go with those more niche titles or actually attempt to make a dent in a market salivating for another AAA pro football title.
    Like the old saying goes, I'll just continue to "hope for the best but prepare for the worst" until concrete information or titles are announced.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    kehlis
    Let me know when it happens.
    It will. I don't know why some people are acting like Take-Two is supposed to be scared of EA or worried about hurting their "feelings". It's nothing personal. It's just business.
    ksuttonjr76
    It will. I don't know why some people are acting like Take-Two is supposed to be scared of EA or worried about hurting their "feelings". It's nothing personal. It's just business.

    I think 2K wants to bitch-slap EA, and have wanted to for the past fifteen years. Screw their feelings.
    It's the NFL they have to be careful with. That's who they're in bed with now. They won't want to piss them off by finding a loophole to create a customizable enough simulation football game so that it could pass of as an NFL simulation, much more so than that of APF 2K8 (even with Javo's editor).
    Blzer
    And why would that be? You mean because it's universal recognition across every sport, and NBA 2K's success will lend toward 2K football success?

    2k and Take Two it just goes well. Imagine if they decided to call it Sega Baseball/Basketball/Football instead.
    zello144
    2k and Take Two it just goes well. Imagine if they decided to call it Sega Baseball/Basketball/Football instead.

    Man, each time I'm hearing SEGA with these items (I just watched some NFL 2K2 stuff last week again) I'm getting hit with so many blissful nostalgic feelings of perhaps my favorite gaming period ever. Not the best games ever, but the time when I had the most enjoyment playing video games.
    I think I would have loved that just fine, but I know what you mean by the sound of the publisher and the product.
    Blzer
    I think 2K wants to bitch-slap EA, and have wanted to for the past fifteen years. Screw their feelings.
    It's the NFL they have to be careful with. That's who they're in bed with now. They won't want to piss them off by finding a loophole to create a customizable enough simulation football game so that it could pass of as an NFL simulation, much more so than that of APF 2K8 (even with Javo's editor).
    Do you all really think the NFL cares that much about the history between EA and Take-Two? The more money that Take-Two makes, that's more money in their pockets.
    ksuttonjr76
    Do you all really think the NFL cares that much about the history between EA and Take-Two? The more money that Take-Two makes, that's more money in their pockets.

    I'm not talking about EA. EA has nothing to do with my conversation. Well, sort of, but not really.
    I'm talking about how the NFL would be gypped out of more money by 2K playing a workaround. And then, yes, partially how EA might sit and go: "Wait, how come they can do that for a nickel and we have to pay $1.5 billion just to have those items out of the box?"
    As far as the rest of it goes, I'm redirecting you to my lemonade analogy, otherwise I'll be talking in circles like we all have been here. In fact, you were the very person who I responded to when I made it, so if you ignored it then I urge you read it to understand the intent of my posts.
    I've already said that I sit on the side right now that thinks it's an NFL Playgrounds type game only at the moment and I don't really think we'll see a simulation game with fake teams and real players.
    That said, the one thing that continues to pique my interest is that the language of the terms makes it seem like 2k will be releasing a game annually and I don't see them doing that with NFL Playgrounds because that does not fit the Playgrounds model.
    ksuttonjr76
    It will. I don't know why some people are acting like Take-Two is supposed to be scared of EA or worried about hurting their "feelings". It's nothing personal. It's just business.

    Don't forget Take Two's lawyers have defended Rockstar in court for all the trouble they've gotten over the years because of GTA. They got an all star roster of lawyers on standby should they do something that gets them in trouble with EA or the NFL and violates whatever contract they have.
    My guess is that they're making an NFL Street game, and possibly a second one that's built strictly to compete with MUT.
    They'd have to do a lot of different things within that Ultimate Team universe, but I could see it being something like the SFL or whatever that big APF 2K8 league is called. 2K would professionally cover the top tier of that league.
    Perhaps it's a combination of those two games doing a system like this.
    I'm hoping for the best a return of NFL 2k non arcade but I think it's most likely going to be a supercard mobile type of game and that will be very disappointing.
    Mike Lowe
    My guess is that they're making an NFL Street game, and possibly a second one that's built strictly to compete with MUT.
    They'd have to do a lot of different things within that Ultimate Team universe, but I could see it being something like the SFL or whatever that big APF 2K8 league is called. 2K would professionally cover the top tier of that league.
    Perhaps it's a combination of those two games doing a system like this.

    I think this is the most likely scenario, EA will be breathing down their neck every step of the way and anything they do will be looked over multiple times by them and probably a few lawyers. 2K has a couple of different avenues to stroll down, but I think if they can build something that's fun and won't get them in trouble with EA and the NFL, they'll should be able to grab enough sales to keep the train going.
    zello144
    I'm hoping for the best a return of NFL 2k non arcade but I think it's most likely going to be a supercard mobile type of game and that will be very disappointing.

    If we don't get a card-collecting mobile game at some point in time from them, I'd be shocked. While disappointing, it would definitely be easy money for 2K.
    I keep hearing "card game" and I'm sitting here not knowing what the bloody **** that means. :spit:
    Is this something akin to MLB Showdown or something? (that's not a video game, by the way)
    Blzer
    I keep hearing "card game" and I'm sitting here not knowing what the bloody **** that means. :spit:
    Is this something akin to MLB Showdown or something? (that's not a video game, by the way)


    An NFL version of that developed by 2k would be heartbreaking if this was the only thing to come out of this licensing deal.
    Am I wrong in thinking EA has already defined what is Arcade by having different modes for Simulation and Arcade in Madden? Is the answer right underneath our nose?
    zello144

    An NFL version of that developed by 2k would be heartbreaking if this was the only thing to come out of this licensing deal.

    That's what we're talking about??
    That's sad. I'd rather just play a virtual MLB Showdown version (which may in essence be the same thing, but hopefully with a little less... animation).
    zello144

    An NFL version of that developed by 2k would be heartbreaking if this was the only thing to come out of this licensing deal.
    I know you all don't think that's the best that Take-Two can do? They could have built that game without negotiating any contracts.
    Blzer
    I'm not talking about EA. EA has nothing to do with my conversation. Well, sort of, but not really.
    I'm talking about how the NFL would be gypped out of more money by 2K playing a workaround. And then, yes, partially how EA might sit and go: "Wait, how come they can do that for a nickel and we have to pay $1.5 billion just to have those items out of the box?"
    As far as the rest of it goes, I'm redirecting you to my lemonade analogy, otherwise I'll be talking in circles like we all have been here. In fact, you were the very person who I responded to when I made it, so if you ignored it then I urge you read it to understand the intent of my posts.
    I read it and it made zero sense. Point blank, EA's deal gives them exclusive rights to make 11v11 games with NFL themed environments. That deal runs through May 2026. Take-Two's NFL deal allows them make NFL games that is NOT 11v11 gameplay, hence "non-simulation". Take-Two's deal with the NFLPA allows them to use the current players however they see fit. The NFL deal allows them to make this stupid card game and NFL Playground that everyone keeps talking about. The NFLPA deal opens the door for 11v11 gameplay without the NFL themes. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, these are two separate deals.
    It's really simple to what they can or can't do. In fact, if the 11v11 game outsells Madden, it opens the door for a possible future NFL/Take-Two deal.
    EDIT: Look at the soccer videogames. There's the FIFA sponsored game (EA has the exclusive rights) then there's the "other" game in PES. There's literally a real-world example of what Take-Two can legally do.
    Even for a non simulation license agreement that couldn't have been cheap. Otherwise why has 2k waited this long to jump on it? Unless they have seen what Saber interactive can do with the arcade market. Even so I think 2k should jump on the idea of doing something special with the NFLPA license similar to what they tried to do with historic players. Take another jab at the simulation market with real active nfl players this time around. Even if it doesn't compete with Madden it would surely be drastically cheaper than going after the NFL simulation license. An NFL playgrounds is just not going to be enough in my mind to warrant going out and finally working with the NFL and NFLPA after so many years.
    Blzer
    That's what we're talking about??
    That's sad. I'd rather just play a virtual MLB Showdown version (which may in essence be the same thing, but hopefully with a little less... animation).

    That's how it most likely will be. That's just how it is for the MyNBA2k app. I never played the Supercard but I do play the MyNBA2k app. I just play the quick games for the daily VC. But I never once considered spending money in it. But a lot of people do because I always see many with elite card decks as soon as the app drops. I don't play it like I use to couple years ago. I used to do most of the events along with daily VC. But last couple years, I would just do the daily vc games until I got my player OVR to a certain OVR. If it was like the 2k13/2k14 app where it was mini-games and not necessary a card based games, that wouldn't be as bad. Especially the old facebook mynba2k app. That old app was basically the neighborhood years before it was even a thing for MyCareer.
    So as I and others have said before, is that F2P card game(with pay-to-win microtransactions) and a Playground game worth it for 2k. Playgrounds don't really sell that well typically and you're not bringing that type of revenue from those mobile card games when you are paying for NFL and NFLPA licenses. If that was the case, then 2k just wants to get in the NFL market and take a very small piece of the pie. Legit chance that NFL SIM license stays exclusive to EA long term. So there's no long-game with the Playgrounds/Card game model. So at the very least, I would expect them to make a game that they can at least make a decent profit off it in their own non-sim lane.
    Pray_iv_m3rcy
    Even for a non simulation license agreement that couldn't have been cheap. Otherwise why has 2k waited this long to jump on it? Unless they have seen what Saber interactive can do with the arcade market. Even so I think 2k should jump on the idea of doing something special with the NFLPA license similar to what they tried to do with historic players. Take another jab at the simulation market with real active nfl players this time around. Even if it doesn't compete with Madden it would surely be drastically cheaper than going after the NFL simulation license. An NFL playgrounds is just not going to be enough in my mind to warrant going out and finally working with the NFL and NFLPA after so many years.

    NFL 2K gamers can thank NBA 2K for this attempt at an NFL game, lol.
    I was just thinking about my last comment. This actually puts pressure on EA to make Madden games better. They better NOT let a non-licensed game outsell them. For Take-Two, it really becomes a win-win. Either they outsell Madden to a point where they technically don't need the NFL license, or they sell enough where they need the NFL license to "put them over the edge". Either way, EA is going to have to step their game up.
    illwill10
    So as I and others have said before, is that F2P card game(with pay-to-win microtransactions) and a Playground game worth it for 2k. Playgrounds don't really sell that well typically and you're not bringing that type of revenue from those mobile card games when you are paying for NFL and NFLPA licenses. If that was the case, then 2k just wants to get in the NFL market and take a very small piece of the pie. Legit chance that NFL SIM license stays exclusive to EA long term. So there's no long-game with the Playgrounds/Card game model. So at the very least, I would expect them to make a game that they can at least make a decent profit off it in their own non-sim lane.

    I think calling it NFL Playgrounds is a bad analogy for what this game could be. I mean yeah it could exactly be a version of NBA Playgrounds but for Football, but I think it's extremely unlikely. They know NBA Playgrounds didn't sell so it makes zero sense to try to force a football version of that game. I still think it'll be arcadey but it'll also be something that can appeal to the masses.
    My hope for the mobile card is less Supercard and more of something like Tap Sports Baseball.
    ksuttonjr76
    NFL 2K gamers can thank NBA 2K for this attempt at an NFL game, lol.
    I was just thinking about my last comment. This actually puts pressure on EA to make Madden games better. They better NOT let a non-licensed game outsell them. For Take-Two, it really becomes a win-win. Either they outsell Madden to a point where they technically don't need the NFL license, or they sell enough where they need the NFL license to "put them over the edge". Either way, EA is going to have to step their game up.

    Madden sells over 10 million copies per year. Whatever 2k does likely has little influence on EA.
    I did find this quote from the press release interesting.
    “We’re thrilled to be working with the NFLPA and OneTeam to bring the biggest and best stars in football to the games we’re working on,” said David Ismailer, President of 2K. “We want to give fans experiences that are authentic, memorable and fun, and having a roster of real-life sports heroes through the Players Association and OneTeam is a huge part of delivering on that promise.”
    The use of the word authentic is what caught my eye. It is how they described APF. Authentic also usually implies gameplay that is grounded and not arcade.
    That said, the word choice could also have little insight to what 2k actually plans on doing, but that quote did stick out to me.
    Kanobi
    If Take-Two used the NFLPA license to make a pro football "sim" using current players (with fictional teams, stadiums, logos, etc) then legally EA couldn't do anything about it.
    Based on what we know, it is only if Take-Two attempted a football "sim" using the NFL license that EA would have legal grounds to intervene.

    There is more to business than what you can and can't legally do.
    2K has been wanting to get back in business with the NFL ever since 2004. Now that they have a new deal with them, it would make no sense to piss the NFL off by doing something the NFL does not approve of, regardless of whether it is legal or not.
    Whenever 2K's new NFL deal runs out, the NFL is under no obligation whatsoever to continue their business relationship with 2K.
    So while it is possible that 2K can legally be allowed to do what you are suggesting, there is no way 2K does anything to ruffle the feathers of such a major business partner that they have regained after a decade and a half of trying.
    ksuttonjr76
    The NFLPA deal opens the door for 11v11 gameplay without the NFL themes. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, these are two separate deals.

    That is correct. Take-Two's agreements with the NFL and NFLPA are separate and, based on current information, the Take-Two/NFL agreement is the only one restricted to being "non-simulation". Therefore, the door is open for Take-Two to make a pro football simulation with the NFLPA using current NFL players.
    ksuttonjr76
    No, they don't.
    https://old.muthead.com/forums/madden/mut-discussion/1401545-18-years-of-madden-game-sales
    And that's against zero competition, but "against" NFL 2K5. Real talk, Take-Two is no NBA Live level of competition against EA.

    That does not include digital sales which is now how the majority of people buy games. Over three quarters of game sales are digital now. Unless I am mistaken, the majority of Madden's sales are also digital copies. If Madden is moving 4.5 to 6 million physical copies per year, but sells more digital copies annually, then they are selling over 10 million copies per year.
    canes21
    I did find this quote from the press release interesting.
    “We’re thrilled to be working with the NFLPA and OneTeam to bring the biggest and best stars in football to the games we’re working on,” said David Ismailer, President of 2K. “We want to give fans experiences that are authentic, memorable and fun, and having a roster of real-life sports heroes through the Players Association and OneTeam is a huge part of delivering on that promise.”
    The use of the word authentic is what caught my eye. It is how they described APF. Authentic also usually implies gameplay that is grounded and not arcade.
    That said, the word choice could also have little insight to what 2k actually plans on doing, but that quote did stick out to me.

    We shall see. Personally, I don't know what to expect. However, I am excited by the possibility of Visual Concepts making another football game.
    Kanobi
    We shall see. Personally, I don't know what to expect. However, I am excited by the possibility of Visual Concepts making another football game.

    I'm very excited, but at the same time I want to temper my expectations because of the unknowns that surround non-simulation. Whatever we get, I pray it leads to NFL 2k's revival and we get back to Madden and 2k both having non-exclusive licenses. That would be the best outcome for gamers.
    canes21
    That does not include digital sales which is now how the majority of people buy games. Over three quarters of game sales are digital now. Unless I am mistaken, the majority of Madden's sales are also digital copies. If Madden is moving 4.5 to 6 million physical copies per year, but sells more digital copies annually, then they are selling over 10 million copies per year.
    Madden is not selling like that for them to feel "safe" against real competition especially against Take Two. They're still chasing the ghost of NFL 2K5.
    mercalnd
    There is more to business than what you can and can't legally do.
    2K has been wanting to get back in business with the NFL ever since 2004. Now that they have a new deal with them, it would make no sense to piss the NFL off by doing something the NFL does not approve of, regardless of whether it is legal or not.
    Whenever 2K's new NFL deal runs out, the NFL is under no obligation whatsoever to continue their business relationship with 2K.
    So while it is possible that 2K can legally be allowed to do what you are suggesting, there is no way 2K does anything to ruffle the feathers of such a major business partner that they have regained after a decade and a half of trying.
    And if Take-Two can outdo EA, the NFL is under no obligation to renew their agreement with EA. As greedy as Take-Two is, people are acting like they're just "testing" the football market.
    ksuttonjr76
    Madden is not selling like that for them to feel "safe" against real competition especially against Take Two. They're still chasing the ghost of NFL 2K5.

    Madden is literally the 2nd or 3rd best selling game annually. I don't know where you get the idea that Madden isn't selling well. The game is selling plenty well enough and the money MUT makes is the cherry on top. EA wouldn't pay $1.5 billion to keep an NFL license for a game that's not selling well. Whether you like Madden or not, it sells plenty.
    ksuttonjr76
    And if Take-Two can outdo EA, the NFL is under no obligation to renew their agreement with EA. As greedy as Take-Two is, people are acting like they're just "testing" the football market.

    Sure. My point is just that 2K will not try something like that unless the NFL is ok with it regardless of the fact that the NFL can't legally prevent them from doing it.
    Since this is all speculation anyways I thought this was interesting. A few questions that I thought about when I heard this.
    Dwayne Johnson just bought the XFL. Wasn’t 2k in talks about making a game for them? Would they be able to use NFLPA players in an XFL game? Would using the XFL league and rules help protect them against lawsuits from EA that they are making an NFL sim?
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    It seems like there are four possibilities on what the new 2K games could be:
    1. A simulation style game with NFL players akin to what we had with the old Joe Montana football games to where it was SF in gold and red vs. MIN in yellow and purple. That would be what we all would most certainly want short of a fully licensed NFL game. It's also the most unlikely imo. So much has changed since then and there is no way that the NFL would be happy with TT putting a game like that out. If TT and the NFL did NOT have a deal already in place then there's a small possibility. But with the language in the TT/NFL deal, I just can't see that at all.
    My verdict: Not happening at all.
    2. Some form of Neighborhood/MUT game that's similar to APF. To me, this is a much better possibilty than #1. NBA2K's MyCareer mode may be the most popular game mode in all sports gaming and the NFL and NFLPA may want to capitalize on that. MyCareer mode is essentially seperate from the NBA aside from the actual playing of season games. I could see a NFL Park, Rec, Pro-Am type of thing happening. Plus there's more than enough room for 2K to compete with MUT if they want to compete with Madden in the card based route. The key here is the word "simulation" however. Is that word defined as "11 vs. 11"? Ironically, I believe MUT is played on in what EA themselves describe as "Arcade" mode.
    My verdict: Somewhat likely. It would definitely make the NFLPA license worth it but it all comes down to the word simulation.
    3. A card, mobile based game like WWE Supercard. I think this is a strong possibility although it's certainly not worth TT acquiring the NFLPA license for. I don't have much to say here because if you played Supercard you'd realize it's not much even for a mobile game.
    My verdict: Very likely but definitely not a 2K's lone offering.
    4. A playgrounds-like Arcade game. Similar to Blitz, NFL Street, etc. There's a still a market out there for these games and this sounds exactly like what's described in the press release. I think this a near certainty but the big question is if this game would justify being the "flagship" game under the NFL2K umbrella.
    My verdict: A near certainty. Definitely happening but like #3 some question is if this is going to be THE game.
    Someone needs to contact the NFL rep and ask about potentially acquiring a non-simulation license and get the details about what non-simulation means.
    I'm sure it's that simple. :p
    kjcheezhead
    Would they be able to use NFLPA players in an XFL game?
    I have to imagine the NFL would reject this on some grounds, and I also have to imagine the NFLPA has some fiduciary interest in not actively harming the NFL with its own business dealings. Signing on to appear in a game involving a rival football league would actively and materially harm the NFL.
    I also doubt the XFL would be okay with their league being represented by players who aren't on their fields for their games.
    Would using the XFL league and rules help protect them against lawsuits from EA that they are making an NFL sim?

    Again, we don't really know what that "simulation" bar is, but I speculate that elements such as a photo-realistic art style (which is what all AAA sports games currently chase and is arguably the most important thing for casual consumers), depth of gameplay mechanics (in a football game's case, even something such as a playbook more complex than what the original NFL Blitz offers might push it over the "simulation" line), and offered gameplay modes (specifically Franchise mode) are going to be the arbiters of "simulation".
    I don't think the specific football rules used to govern the football gameplay ultimately matter nearly as much as those other three things.
    CM Hooe
    I have to imagine the NFL would reject this on some grounds, and I also have to imagine the NFLPA has some fiduciary interest in not actively harming the NFL with its own business dealings. Signing on to appear in a game involving a rival football league would actively and materially harm the NFL.
    I also doubt the XFL would be okay with their league being represented by players who aren't on their fields for their games.
    Again, we don't really know what that "simulation" bar is, but I speculate that elements such as a photo-realistic art style (which is what all AAA sports games currently chase and is arguably the most important thing for casual consumers), depth of gameplay mechanics (in a football game's case, even something such as a playbook more complex than what the original NFL Blitz offers might push it over the "simulation" line), and offered gameplay modes (specifically Franchise mode) are going to be the arbiters of "simulation".
    I don't think the specific football rules used to govern the football gameplay ultimately matter nearly as much as those other three things.

    I agree with you about the NFL not wanting their players in an XFL game. Maybe they were going to use XFL for a playgrounds type game first. That league sold its product on the field as something better suited for arcade games anyways.
    I think anything that would get XFL attention and helping establish it would be ok with them. Using the original players and having NFL players you can collect like a MUT mode would be cool with the XFL I bet, more the NFL that would have the problem.
    The last part is that 2k can make a simulation, but it can’t be NFL. If you go old school like SF in red or Wisconsin in green and gold, you’re risking a lawsuit these days. You can’t even have fake players with all of the actual players stats without possible litigation. Hall of fame players cried foul when madden did it in historic teams. An actual league like XFL might avoid that problem tho
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    ksuttonjr76
    I read it and it made zero sense. Point blank, EA's deal gives them exclusive rights to make 11v11 games with NFL themed environments. That deal runs through May 2026. Take-Two's NFL deal allows them make NFL games that is NOT 11v11 gameplay, hence "non-simulation". Take-Two's deal with the NFLPA allows them to use the current players however they see fit. The NFL deal allows them to make this stupid card game and NFL Playground that everyone keeps talking about. The NFLPA deal opens the door for 11v11 gameplay without the NFL themes. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, these are two separate deals.
    It's really simple to what they can or can't do. In fact, if the 11v11 game outsells Madden, it opens the door for a possible future NFL/Take-Two deal.
    EDIT: Look at the soccer videogames. There's the FIFA sponsored game (EA has the exclusive rights) then there's the "other" game in PES. There's literally a real-world example of what Take-Two can legally do.

    I understand all of this, but you know what else PES isn't doing? They're not trying to build a strong relationship with FIFA and keep something going either for smaller chump change or trying to gain exclusivity in the future with them, and that much is clear.
    2K Sports, on the other hand, would very much like to do this with the NFL one day. This point is more important now on my end than it ever was, now that I know that they mangled their relationship with the NFL back when they released 2K5 early and cheaper. The NFL wasn't happy about this, and it has cost 2K ever so dearly for at least fifteen years.
    What 2K needs is a good relationship with the NFL, and if they end up releasing a sim game with real player names where you can customize it enough to simulate the real NFL experience (teams, logos, stadiums, league format and rules, contracts, franchise, etc.), the NFL is going to feel like a gypped party in that 2K is doing a workaround of their own deal with them.
    Sure, it can last for the next five years or whatever their contract is for, but what about the next contract? What about the possibility of an exclusive license after that? Clearly the NFL won't be swayed simply by "2K making a good game," or even "2K selling a lot of their product." Money seems to be the top priority, alongside a trusting partnership. EA has seemed to provide both of these for them, and they have shared that bed with the NFL since.
    That's what my lemonade analogy is for. It's not regarding their game in 2022... it's regarding their games in 2026, and onward. However, if their game simply lets them customize it as little as APF did, then you're right this isn't an issue. It also probably won't sell very well though, either.
    Blzer
    I understand all of this, but you know what else PES isn't doing? They're not trying to build a strong relationship with FIFA and keep something going either for smaller chump change or trying to gain exclusivity in the future with them, and that much is clear.
    2K Sports, on the other hand, would very much like to do this with the NFL one day. This point is more important now on my end than it ever was, now that I know that they mangled their relationship with the NFL back when they released 2K5 early and cheaper. The NFL wasn't happy about this, and it has cost 2K ever so dearly for at least fifteen years.
    What 2K needs is a good relationship with the NFL, and if they end up releasing a sim game with real player names where you can customize it enough to simulate the real NFL experience (teams, logos, stadiums, league format and rules, contracts, franchise, etc.), the NFL is going to feel like a gypped party in that 2K is doing a workaround of their own deal with them.
    Sure, it can last for the next five years or whatever their contract is for, but what about the next contract? What about the possibility of an exclusive license after that? Clearly the NFL won't be swayed simply by "2K making a good game," or even "2K selling a lot of their product." Money seems to be the top priority, alongside a trusting partnership. EA has seemed to provide both of these for them, and they have shared that bed with the NFL since.
    That's what my lemonade analogy is for. It's not regarding their game in 2022... it's regarding their games in 2026, and onward. However, if their game simply lets them customize it as little as APF did, then you're right this isn't an issue. It also probably won't sell very well though, either.

    Then that's a STUPID deal...they paid for specific agreements with the NFL and NFLPA to make card and playground games in HOPES to get the NFL deal in 2026? That's what you telling me? Hell, it's more of a stupid deal, because I think Take-Two always had the rights to make non-sim videogames since the original NFL/EA deal.
    CM Hooe
    I have to imagine the NFL would reject this on some grounds, and I also have to imagine the NFLPA has some fiduciary interest in not actively harming the NFL with its own business dealings. Signing on to appear in a game involving a rival football league would actively and materially harm the NFL.
    I also doubt the XFL would be okay with their league being represented by players who aren't on their fields for their games.

    Hmm, I wouldn't think of the XFL as competition to the NFL. They play during a different season, players would ideally transfer over to the other league at some point if good enough, and it helps grow the sport as a whole. If anything, I'd think the NFL would want the XFL to wildly succeed.
    The only way this wouldn't help them is if 2K didn't already have a deal with the NFL. If 2K only made a game for the XFL, and irate Madden gamers finally have that "better gameplay" football option, then that's the only way that would steer customers from an NFL product. But if 2K is also able to make an NFL product at some point that rivals the same gameplay as the XFL, then I wouldn't think it's much of a concern.
    All this is likely moot, anyway. 2K has dealings with the NFL, and if they're legitimately already making two games for them at this point, I just don't see where the resources allotted to a third game would come to existence anyway. So in the end, this is still a nonstarter.
    ksuttonjr76
    Then that's a STUPID deal...they paid for specific agreements with the NFL and NFLPA to make card and playground games in HOPES to get the NFL deal in 2026? That's what you telling me? Hell, it's more of a stupid deal, because I think Take-Two always had the rights to make non-sim videogames since the original NFL/EA deal.

    Well, I'm now just learning about these silly card games myself, but if it makes them money, then sure?
    I don't know how much 2K spent when the dotted line was signed, but it sure wasn't $1.5 billion. They want to churn out a profit and they want to begin a good relationship with the NFL. Five years from now, they want to keep that relationship going so they can potentially be the exclusive rights holder or share third-party rights with EA.
    I'm still looking big picture, and that's 2026-onward. Selfishly, I would kill to play a customizable, sim next-gen football title from 2K that can very eerily replicate the NFL experience in every way but that one name. I really would. I'm just looking at it from 2K's perspective right now.
    And look, if 2K does come out with that one title, there isn't an "I told you so" to be had. That just goes to show that they either are less considerate about future holdings with the NFL to go bigger and bolder later down the line, or the NFL is granting them this inlet (remember, they aren't the NFLPA and that deal didn't strike first, so this is harder to say) with the intention of putting everything back on the table again when the next negotiations come around.
    But if the NFL thought they could squeeze even a single dollar more out of 2K by shape-shifting that deal and not letting 2K loophole them by dealing with the NFLPA on the side, you'd think they would have wanted to do that, and this "act of betrayal" might not be so good for a future partnership that brings them NFL rights, and moooooore.
    Five years from now, Take-Two will be receiving massive earnings from NBA 2K, GTA VI, GTA:O and RDR:O, and hopefully from whatever NFL-based titles 2K releases from then till now. They won't make EA money, but they might make enough money to claim what's rightfully theirs in the future. The NFL might deal with them if they play ball for the next five years, but if they start doing shady business then it will be 2004 all over again. I won't be able to play another NFL 2K game until I'm 50 years old.
    canes21
    Someone needs to contact the NFL rep and ask about potentially acquiring a non-simulation license and get the details about what non-simulation means.
    I'm sure it's that simple. :p

    No kidding. :lol:
    I would even be surprised if it is that laid out. It's probably more on EA's end to enforce what their contract doesn't allow.
    I know when the initial TT/NFL release was announced, EA made a big stink about Madden being the only game that had 11 vs. 11 gameplay. Then in the EA/NFL deal, I don't remember that being mentioned at all.
    Obviously, the NFLPA deal could differ in some regard. I think the hope is that NFL "simulation" wouldn't allow:
    -Customization so far to replicate real NFL teams
    -Users having the ability to create NFL teams using current players.
    -No season modes that replicate an NFL schedule (or contracts and all of that).
    And that's pretty much it as far as the main sticking points. No real way to replicate a NFL game. That's essentially Neighborhood/MUT and quite frankly I think that's the best case scenario.
    To add: It's pretty ironic because I would MUCH rather have 2K handle the simulation franchise portion of the game and Madden have the MUT/Superstar KO modes they seem to love so much.
    Rocky
    No kidding. :lol:
    I would even be surprised if it is that laid out. It's probably more on EA's end to enforce what their contract doesn't allow.
    I know when the initial TT/NFL release was announced, EA made a big stink about Madden being the only game that had 11 vs. 11 gameplay. Then in the EA/NFL deal, I don't remember that being mentioned at all.
    Obviously, the NFLPA deal could differ in some regard. I think the hope is that NFL "simulation" wouldn't allow:
    -Customization so far to replicate real NFL teams
    -Users having the ability to create NFL teams using current players.
    -No season modes that replicate an NFL schedule (or contracts and all of that).
    And that's pretty much it as far as the main sticking points. No real way to replicate a NFL game. That's essentially Neighborhood/MUT and quite frankly I think that's the best case scenario.
    To add: It's pretty ironic because I would MUCH rather have 2K handle the simulation franchise portion of the game and Madden have the MUT/Superstar KO modes they seem to love so much.

    i think 2k is going to steal the MUT/Superstar KO modes and try to do them with better more realistic game play. Even though Madden did those modes first they have the SIM license with doesnt encompass those mode, so 2K will hop on the gravy train.
    ksuttonjr76
    I read it and it made zero sense. Point blank, EA's deal gives them exclusive rights to make 11v11 games with NFL themed environments. That deal runs through May 2026. Take-Two's NFL deal allows them make NFL games that is NOT 11v11 gameplay, hence "non-simulation". Take-Two's deal with the NFLPA allows them to use the current players however they see fit. The NFL deal allows them to make this stupid card game and NFL Playground that everyone keeps talking about. The NFLPA deal opens the door for 11v11 gameplay without the NFL themes. Unless I'm misunderstanding something, these are two separate deals.
    It's really simple to what they can or can't do. In fact, if the 11v11 game outsells Madden, it opens the door for a possible future NFL/Take-Two deal.
    EDIT: Look at the soccer videogames. There's the FIFA sponsored game (EA has the exclusive rights) then there's the "other" game in PES. There's literally a real-world example of what Take-Two can legally do.
    Right, but people are being intentionally obtuse. As if EA will be monitoring the development of whatever they intend to create.
    Everything is in place for 2K Sports to create either strictly arcade, casual title or using the NFLPA license to make a pro football title a keen to Madden 64, the original Joe Montana Football and (in international footie) PES.
    It is all up to how ambitious & interested they are in really attempting to compete in the pro football space, again. Seems they are pretty interested if they struck these deals & are moving forward with multiple titles.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    Blzer
    Well, I'm now just learning about these silly card games myself, but if it makes them money, then sure?
    I don't know how much 2K spent when the dotted line was signed, but it sure wasn't $1.5 billion. They want to churn out a profit and they want to begin a good relationship with the NFL. Five years from now, they want to keep that relationship going so they can potentially be the exclusive rights holder or share third-party rights with EA.
    I'm still looking big picture, and that's 2026-onward. Selfishly, I would kill to play a customizable, sim next-gen football title from 2K that can very eerily replicate the NFL experience in every way but that one name. I really would. I'm just looking at it from 2K's perspective right now.
    And look, if 2K does come out with that one title, there isn't an "I told you so" to be had. That just goes to show that they either are less considerate about future holdings with the NFL to go bigger and bolder later down the line, or the NFL is granting them this inlet (remember, they aren't the NFLPA and that deal didn't strike first, so this is harder to say) with the intention of putting everything back on the table again when the next negotiations come around.
    But if the NFL thought they could squeeze even a single dollar more out of 2K by shape-shifting that deal and not letting 2K loophole them by dealing with the NFLPA on the side, you'd think they would have wanted to do that, and this "act of betrayal" might not be so good for a future partnership that brings them NFL rights, and moooooore.
    Five years from now, Take-Two will be receiving massive earnings from NBA 2K, GTA VI, GTA:O and RDR:O, and hopefully from whatever NFL-based titles 2K releases from then till now. They won't make EA money, but they might make enough money to claim what's rightfully theirs in the future. The NFL might deal with them if they play ball for the next five years, but if they start doing shady business then it will be 2004 all over again. I won't be able to play another NFL 2K game until I'm 50 years old.
    Brother, it has been 16 years since the license was non-exclusive & it can safely be assumed it'll stay that way forever (or when EA decides it is no longer fruitful). EA has the advantage of their relationship with the NFL, the deepest pockets of any publisher & the logistical (player, uniform, stadium renders, etc, etc.) know how to maintain this current relationship.
    Maybe, Take - Two has finally come, or came, to that realization & are going forward with what is available to them (the "arcade" & NFLPA licenses).
    We'll all find out sometime next year.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    J_Posse
    Right, but people are being intentionally obtuse. As if EA will be monitoring the development of whatever they intend to create.
    Everything is in place for 2K Sports to create either strictly arcade, casual title or using the NFLPA license to make a pro football title a keen to Madden 64, the original Joe Montana Football and (in international footie) PES.
    It is all up to how ambitious & interested they are in really attempting to compete in the pro football space, again. Seems they are pretty interested if they struck these deals & are moving forward with multiple titles.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation

    Maybe it's because I play NBA 2K and GTA Online and know how they tried to kill the consumer with microtransactions, but I don't see how a company of their "mindset" would just "settle" on card games and playground/blitz games. Someone at Take-Two thinks they can snatch the football crowd from EA, and they finally generated enough revenue to pursue that quest. From what I'm reading, Take-Two is one of the top "new money" publishers in the gaming industry. Meaning, they haven't been around as long as the Nintendos, Sonys, Activisions, Ubisofst, etc of the world. Remind you, their gaming library is not as deep at those other companies. If you want the honest-to-God truth, I think Take-Two is greedier than EA, and THAT'S saying a lot.
    Yes, gamers are starved for a new football game, but card and playground games are not going to cut it. Take-Two/2K Sports have a name for itself already with football, so it's not like they're some rookie coming into the game. They're going to make a 11v11 football game. Book it.
    If the NFL was that "concern" about what Take-Two might do with the license, there would have been no agreement in the first place.
    Take Two isn't that new. They've been around for about 30 years, no? They have a TON of blockbusters behind their name, too. The GTA series, Bioshock series, Borderlands series, Max Payne series, the Civilization series.
    They are good at making money. Call them greedy if you want, I don't necessarily call them nor EA evil and greedy. The consumers are spending the money, but Take Two isn't that young and they're climbing the ladder quickly as one of the wealthier companies out there.
    J_Posse
    Right, but people are being intentionally obtuse. As if EA will be monitoring the development of whatever they intend to create.

    Is this not what companies have legal departments for?
    SmashMan
    Is this not what companies have legal departments for?

    Not usually, most companies I'm familiar with who have their own internal legal teams primarily use them as a means to prevent risk, not seek out infringement violations.
    That said, I'm not anywhere near the field of video game work so I don't know. I think generally EA's own internal team would see something they don't like and then seek the help of their legal team (not the other way around).
    (I also know we have an infringement lawyer on here that can answer this question better than anyone else can if he chooses to)
    That said, I think it's incredibly naive to assume EA won't be paying attention to what 2k is doing.
    kehlis
    Not usually, most companies I'm familiar with who have their own internal legal teams primarily use them as a means to prevent risk, not seek out infringement violations.
    That said, I'm not anywhere near the field of video game work so I don't know. I think generally EA's own internal team would see something they don't like and then seek the help of their legal team (not the other way around).
    (I also know we have an infringement lawyer on here that can answer this question better than anyone else can if he chooses to)
    That said, I think it's incredibly naive to assume EA won't be paying attention to what 2k is doing.

    I would also think that it is naive to think 2k has a lot of grey area to work with. I would assume that EA and the NFL have made it very clear what can and cannot be done in a non-simulation game. EA is paying $1.5 billion for their exclusive license. I cannot imagine for one second they left any room for 2k to find some type of loophole or grey area to exploit.
    kehlis
    Not usually, most companies I'm familiar with who have their own internal legal teams primarily use them as a means to prevent risk, not seek out infringement violations.
    That said, I'm not anywhere near the field of video game work so I don't know. I think generally EA's own internal team would see something they don't like and then seek the help of their legal team (not the other way around).
    (I also know we have an infringement lawyer on here that can answer this question better than anyone else can if he chooses to)
    That said, I think it's incredibly naive to assume EA won't be paying attention to what 2k is doing.

    Makes sense. My assumption was just that there would be people whose duties include keeping an eye out for anyone getting too close to infringing on existing deals.
    But I’m not in games or legal work, so I’m open to the perspective of anyone that is.
    kehlis
    Not usually, most companies I'm familiar with who have their own internal legal teams primarily use them as a means to prevent risk, not seek out infringement violations.
    That said, I'm not anywhere near the field of video game work so I don't know. I think generally EA's own internal team would see something they don't like and then seek the help of their legal team (not the other way around).
    (I also know we have an infringement lawyer on here that can answer this question better than anyone else can if he chooses to)
    That said, I think it's incredibly naive to assume EA won't be paying attention to what 2k is doing.
    I'm sure they will be made aware of anything that would infringe on the agreement - by the NFL, news outlets or an "inside" source - but I doubt these companies, especially 2 with such heated history, are in the business of "informing" each other of their development plans or goings on.
    If anything the parameters were already set forth when they inked their deals with the NFL & NFLPA, respectively. I doubt those negotiations had anything involving EA "monitoring" their titles development(s) or what their future titles even are.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    canes21
    I would also think that it is naive to think 2k has a lot of grey area to work with. I would assume that EA and the NFL have made it very clear what can and cannot be done in a non-simulation game. EA is paying $1.5 billion for their exclusive license. I cannot imagine for one second they left any room for 2k to find some type of loophole or grey area to exploit.
    Again, the "grey area" as you continue to state it could be an unlicensed pro football title with full backing by the NFLPA.
    Again, just like what EA Sports previously did with Madden 64 which was unlicensed by the NFL - but had NFLPA licensing - because those rights were held by Acclaim & the NFL Quarterback Club title.
    It really isn't difficult to understand how it COULD happen - that doesn't mean it will - and I'm starting to wonder why some individuals can't understand that.
    Another option I would love for them to explore, especially on mobile titles or Switch, is a "spiritual successor" to Tecmo Bowl. Even if they aren't the holder's of that IP there still is a market for that type of arcade title.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    J_Posse
    I'm sure they will be made aware of anything that would infringe on the agreement - by the NFL, news outlets or an "inside" source - but I doubt these companies, especially 2 with such heated history, are in the business of "informing" each other of their development plans or goings on.
    If anything the parameters were already set forth when they inked their deals with the NFL & NFLPA, respectively. I doubt those negotiations had anything involving EA "monitoring" their titles development(s) or what their future titles even are.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation

    I think this position is a bit far into the weeds, why does it matter how anyone finds out about the title? Just such an odd point to debate.
    If it infringes on EA's contract with the NFL (either by being too much of a simulation game or by creating consumer confusion w/ a NFLPA-only 'not NFL' sim title) I think we can all agree billable hours will be had by all.
    mestevo
    I think this position is a bit far into the weeds, why does it matter how anyone finds out about the title? Just such an odd point to debate.
    If it infringes on EA's contract with the NFL (either by being too much of a simulation game or by creating consumer confusion w/ a NFLPA-only 'not NFL' sim title) I think we can all agree billable hours will be had by all.
    Not my point at all. My point is they won't be giving EA a "progress report" or stating to them (their competitor) what they plan on doing with their current licenses. They will find out just like the rest of us when 2K announces their first official title(s).
    What "consumer confusion" would a non-NFL title (meaning it will have no NFL branding or in it's moniker) create? That is a silly point to make, my man.
    I'm sure most consumers are aware of Madden NFL & whatever 2K makes with or without the NFL branding will be that "other 2K football game."
    Not that hard to understand. And how would a game that doesn't have the NFL insignia or branding warrant EA "billing" their lawyers?
    This situation has happened countless times in the past, especially in the 8-bit & 16-bit era, yet people are behaving like this is brand new or unprecedented. The main difference, just like in 2007, is Take - Two & 2K Sports will again be constrained, if they so chose, to make a title without the official NFL license & EA being the exclusive right's holder.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    J_Posse
    Not my point at all. My point is they won't be giving EA a "progress report" or stating to them (their competitor) what they plan on doing with their current licenses. They will find out just like the rest of us when 2K announces their first official title(s).
    What "consumer confusion" would a non-NFL title (meaning it will have no NFL branding or in it's moniker) create? That is a silly point to make, my man.
    I'm sure most consumers are aware of Madden NFL & whatever 2K makes with or without the NFL branding will be that "other 2K football game."
    Not that hard to understand. And how would a game that doesn't have the NFL insignia or branding warrant EA "billing" their lawyers?
    This situation has happened countless times in the past, especially in the 8-bit & 16-bit era, yet people are behaving like this is brand new or unprecedented.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation

    You keep going way back to the 90s with sports games. During that time league and player licenses were there if you wanted to pay for them. Yes, some did just NFLPA and some just NFL. This was very common in the Genesis and SNES days.This situation is so much different. In today's world, litigation is so commonplace. Look how we lost the NCAA games. Because two college kids sued EA for having a players that resembled them in the game. We had college sports way back to the Nintendo days, but one misstep, and the wrong person comes along and it's over just like that.
    My point is, I don't think people think it's impossible to do, I just think they are 99% sure it won't happen so there is no reason to keep going on about it. People see it as a risk Take-Two isn't willing to take. And they are probably right.
    And unless I missed something, he wasn't suggesting the each company would be handing out progress reports to each other.
    PVarck31
    You keep going way back to the 90s with sports games. During that time league and player licenses were there if you wanted to pay for them. Yes, some did just NFLPA and some just NFL. This was very common in the Genesis and SNES days.This situation is so much different. In today's world, litigation is so commonplace. Look how we lost the NCAA games. Because two college kids sued EA for having a players that resembled them in the game. We had college sports way back to the Nintendo days, but one misstep, and the wrong person comes along and it's over just like that.
    My point is, I don't think people think it's impossible to do, I just think they are 99% sure it won't happen so there is no reason to keep going on about it. People see it as a risk Take-Two isn't willing to take. And they are probably right.
    And unless I missed something, he wasn't suggesting the each company would be handing out progress reports to each other.
    If you're trying to make a 11v11 game then why bother?

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