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NBA 2K22 Player Ratings Slowly Being Revealed - Plenty of Screenshots

nba 2k22

NBA 2K22

NBA 2K22 Player Ratings Slowly Being Revealed - Plenty of Screenshots

2K has slowly started to reveal some NBA 2K22 player ratings and screenshots. We have gathered the tweets and screenshots that we’ve found so far and posted them below for easier browsing.

As always, let us know what you think.

Here are the NBA 2K22 player ratings that have been released so far.

  • LeBron James – Overall 96
  • Kevin Durant – Overall 96
  • Giannis Antetokounmpo – Overall 96
  • Steph Curry – Overall 96
  • Kawhi Leonard – Overall 95
  • Joel Embiid – Overall 95
  • Nikola Jokic – Overall 95
  • Luka Doncic – Overall 94
  • Dame Lillard – Overall 94
  • James Harden – Overall 94
  • Jayson Tatum – Overall 90
  • Zion Williamson – Overall 89
  • Trae Young – Overall 89
  • Khris Middleton – Overall 88
  • Rudy Gobert – Overall 88
  • Zach LaVine – Overall 87
  • Domantas Sabonis – Overall 86
  • Jrue Holiday – Overall 85
  • LaMelo Ball – Overall 84
  • Ben Simmons – Overall 84
  • Joe Ingles – Overall 80

WNBA

  • Breanna Stewart – Overall 95
  • A’ja Wilson – Overall 94
  • Jonquel Jones – Overall 94
  • Candace Parker – Overall 93
  • Brittney Griner – Overall 92

2K has announced Luka Doncic as the NBA 2K22 cover athlete for both the Standard Edition and Cross-Gen Digital Bundle. The team also revealed Kevin Durant, Dirk Nowitzki and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar are the cover athletes for the NBA 75th Anniversary Edition. Candace Parker will be the cover athlete of the WNBA 25th Anniversary Special Edition. She is the first female cover athlete in the history of the franchise.

NBA 2K22 releases on September 10 for PlayStation 4, PlayStation 5, Xbox One, Xbox Series X|S, Nintendo Switch and PC.

181 Comments

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Discussion
  1. It's really a shame on 2k if KD is not the highest rated player in 2k22...
    96 only again? after the PO's he did... LOL
    Funny is that they still will consider better people injured like Kawhi, with no shot as Anteto or an old lady who starts feeling the age like Lebron... come on now.
    The only player up for now is Middleton (85->88) the rest are the same or a -1...
    I am starting to suffer thinking on what they will do to Booker and Ayton... LOL
    Not bothered by these initial ratings, as they'll fluctuate throughout the season. Nice to see updated player scans for KD, LaMelo, and Tatum.
    Guard-ian
    It's really a shame on 2k if KD is not the highest rated player in 2k22...
    96 only again? after the PO's he did... LOL
    Funny is that they still will consider better people injured like Kawhi, with no shot as Anteto or an old lady who starts feeling the age like Lebron... come on now.

    NO, why should Durant be higher than everyone else. The dude missed like 2/3rds of the season and he was average to poor on defense the majority of the time he played. He had some good games in the playoffs but it wasn't anything that other players didn't also do this year in the playoffs. Doncic put up some crazy numbers, Jannis dropped a 50 piece in a closeout game to win a championship while also playing unreal defense. Durant is rated as highly as him when Jannis is a far superior defensive player and just as productive on offense.
    Steve_OS
    Trae Young - Overall 89

    Lmao what a joke. Ratings team took the summer off.
    (This isn't just my opinion. As an active roster editor who uses 2K's scales and regularly updates, this one is awful BEFORE even taking the playoffs into consideration. Trae will have a rating on par with Westbrook or something cringe-worthy).
    Real2KInsider
    Lmao what a joke. Ratings team took the summer off.
    (This isn't just my opinion. As an active roster editor who uses 2K's scales and regularly updates, this one is awful BEFORE even taking the playoffs into consideration. Trae will have a rating on par with Westbrook or something cringe-worthy).

    Just out of curiosity are you saying he should be higher or lower?
    Obviously the breakdown of attributes is what matters and how inflated it is by ‘intangibles’ but 89 for Trae is about right, for me.
    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Steve_OS
    Steve_OS
    LaMelo Ball - Overall 84
    By far the two best scans we've been shown.
    I think KD's scan is the same as last year, but they resized his head/neck to a better proportion.
    Again, they aren't stars but I'm waiting to see if they've updated Patty Mills, Rudy Gay, Derrick White and given Drew Eubanks an official scan.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    Guard-ian
    It's really a shame on 2k if KD is not the highest rated player in 2k22...
    96 only again? after the PO's he did... LOL
    Funny is that they still will consider better people injured like Kawhi, with no shot as Anteto or an old lady who starts feeling the age like Lebron... come on now.

    Lmao y’all really baby KD. Dude is at best a 44 on defense, airballed out of the second round, his performances were no better than several others in the same playoffs, and he lost THREE GAMES on his Olympic team. Two in the pre run and one in the actual Olympics (first US loss in decades). 96 is generous as hell.
    Real2KInsider
    Lmao what a joke. Ratings team took the summer off.
    (This isn't just my opinion. As an active roster editor who uses 2K's scales and regularly updates, this one is awful BEFORE even taking the playoffs into consideration. Trae will have a rating on par with Westbrook or something cringe-worthy).
    Does this mean heavy roster editing (with tendencies edits) are going to be in the works?
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    3304Life
    Just out of curiosity are you saying he should be higher or lower?

    Higher.
    2K21 Final PG Ratings (PS4)
    97 OVR Stephen Curry: 26.3 PER, 66 TS%, 35 USG%, 31 AST%
    94 OVR Damian Lillard: 25.6 PER, 62 TS%, 31 USG%, 35 AST%
    94 OVR Luka Doncic: 25.3 PER, 59 TS%, 36 USG%, 44 AST%
    91 OVR Kyrie Irving: 21.4 PER, 61 TS%, 30 USG%, 29 AST%
    89 OVR Chris Paul: 21.4 PER, 60 TS%, 23 USG%, 41 AST%
    88 OVR Russell Westbrook: 19.5 PER, 51 TS%, 30 USG%, 49 AST%
    87 OVR De'Aaron Fox: 20.7 PER, 57 TS%, 31 USG%, 33 AST%
    87 OVR Shai Gilgeous-Alexander: 21.6 PER, 62 TS%, 28 USG%, 31 AST%
    87 OVR Trae Young: 23.0 PER, 59 TS%, 33 USG%, 46 AST%
    86 OVR Jamal Murray: 18.3 PER, 59 TS%, 25 USG%, 20 AST%
    86 OVR Ben Simmons: 18.3 PER, 58 TS%, 20 USG%, 31 AST%
    86 OVR Jrue Holiday: 20.0 PER, 59 TS%, 22 USG%, 26 AST%
    It stands out as embarrassing from an even novice-level glance.
    (League-wide Trae ranked 17th in PER, 6th in USG%, 2nd in AST%).
    (Yes I'm aware he doesn't play defense, neither do half the players on this list. That's not where PG value comes from).
    He was the clear best player on a playoff team (and this again doesn't even factor the two upsets that occurred in those playoff games). This should have put a gigantic magnifying glass on him.
    Obviously the breakdown of attributes is what matters and how inflated it is by ‘intangibles’ but 89 for Trae is about right, for me.

    2K controls OVRs using Intangibles; Attributes are largely no longer relevant towards OVR adjustments. They simply fail to understand which tier he belongs in. He was the 4th best PG in the league by a pretty clear margin and it's obvious he won't land there in 2K's ratings.
    (This also doesn't exactly paint the Jrue Holiday rating in particularly good light)
    TLDR: I spent 30 mins researching to verify the above ratings/rankings are horse****. This isn't brain surgery, this is Basketball-Reference.
    BQ32
    NO, why should Durant be higher than everyone else. The dude missed like 2/3rds of the season and he was average to poor on defense the majority of the time he played. He had some good games in the playoffs but it wasn't anything that other players didn't also do this year in the playoffs. Doncic put up some crazy numbers, Jannis dropped a 50 piece in a closeout game to win a championship while also playing unreal defense. Durant is rated as highly as him when Jannis is a far superior defensive player and just as productive on offense.

    Because he is the best player in the World nowadays, simple as that... In the last PO he was the best player and 1 centimetre away (or a shorter feet, LOL) of eliminating the Bucks despite all the injuries in Nets...
    Who is the best then, Lebron who was destroyed by the Suns? The King is still a great player but not on his prime anymore, pass goes by and 2k should finally realise it... Besides, there are young stars up and coming that should be replacing the olds little by little... ;-)
    Guard-ian
    It's really a shame on 2k if KD is not the highest rated player in 2k22...
    96 only again? after the PO's he did

    Durant rates lower at PF, his rating likely jumps 2 pts at SF.
    He's the best scorer on the planet (and possibly ever), but everything he is below average at is essentially what Giannis dominates at. Combine them both and you'd have the perfect player, but that isn't necessarily what the OVR is trying to measure anyway. It's more about "value" to the team/league than on-court ability.
    Mintsa
    Let’s get some rookies.
    A little Scottie Barnes please and thanks.

    Showcasing the rookies would have been a better route seeing that most of these faces are last years scans anyway.
    Real2KInsider
    Durant rates lower at PF, his rating likely jumps 2 pts at SF.
    He's the best scorer on the planet (and possibly ever), but everything he is below average at is essentially what Giannis dominates at. Combine them both and you'd have the perfect player, but that isn't necessarily what the OVR is trying to measure anyway. It's more about "value" to the team/league than on-court ability.

    Oh, that's an interesting point... so if he is a PF/SF, so his principal position is PF, he is evaluated (in the overall rating formula) as a PF but if you play him as a SF... he is a 98 SF right? (attributes don't go down when playing in the secondary position I guess)...
    cthurt
    Showcasing the rookies would have been a better route seeing that most of these faces are last years scans anyway.
    You are right that the rookie class would be better use of this marketing tactic, but they likely haven't added many to 2K22 as of yet.
    Most rookies were just scanned last week (or the one prior), so they'd have to only show us the ones created for 2K21 (MyTeam).
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    I thought Trae would be raised to at least a 91 after the PS. Is Holiday lower than what he was even after the last 2K21 update? 87-88 seemed about right for him.
    Anyway, I’m not putting too much emphasis on these ratings. I’m more interested player scans, honestly.
    I think people take the overall ratings way too seriously. How much bearing can you say it really has on gameplay without knowing exactly what the specific ratings are?
    As long as a player is capable of doing what he does in real life, who cares what the big number next to his face is?
    VictorMG
    I think people take the overall ratings way too seriously. How much bearing can you say it really has on gameplay without knowing exactly what the specific ratings are?
    As long as a player is capable of doing what he does in real life, who cares what the big number next to his face is?

    I agree it’s not a big deal (they can also be tweaked), but ratings equate to overall impact outside of badges (which I wish didn’t exist).
    A player can’t have his true likeness, if he doesn’t have the correct impact. Having the correct ratings/tendencies would also help roster/slider makers here tremendously.
    J_Posse
    By far the two best scans we've been shown.
    I think KD's scan is the same as last year, but they resized his head/neck to a better proportion.
    Again, they aren't stars but I'm waiting to see if they've updated Patty Mills, Rudy Gay, Derrick White and given Drew Eubanks an official scan.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation

    It looks like they put his head on a tree stump. Doesn’t look proportional or like his noodle-esque frame at all.
    Real2KInsider
    Durant rates lower at PF, his rating likely jumps 2 pts at SF.
    He's the best scorer on the planet (and possibly ever), but everything he is below average at is essentially what Giannis dominates at. Combine them both and you'd have the perfect player, but that isn't necessarily what the OVR is trying to measure anyway. It's more about "value" to the team/league than on-court ability.

    Best scorer on the planet despite rarely averaging 30ppg despite his height advantages and eased up rules tailor made for players like him?
    I just don’t grasp why he would he have the highest rating after another year full of injuries, losing in the second round and then losing 3 games in the Olympics (back to back and then the first loss since 00’s for team USA to open the tournament).
    I agree exactly that OVR has to measure overall abilities. Defensively his rating is sub par. Giannis still not getting proper respect with the highest OVR. His season wasn’t as dominant as the previous two but he won a ring. He should be highest IMO.
    Steve_OS
    Zach LaVine - Overall 87

    Graphically identical to 21. Even the jerseys/red don’t look as saturated as the previous promo pics had them.
    Guard-ian
    Because he is the best player in the World nowadays, simple as that... In the last PO he was the best player and 1 centimetre away (or a shorter feet, LOL) of eliminating the Bucks despite all the injuries in Nets...
    Who is the best then, Lebron who was destroyed by the Suns? The King is still a great player but not on his prime anymore, pass goes by and 2k should finally realise it... Besides, there are young stars up and coming that should be replacing the olds little by little... ;-)

    HOW though? What solid metric signifies he’s the best player in the world? He’s on the most stacked team in history, and they couldn’t pull it off. Injuries are an attribute in themselves, meaning KD being so injury prone is a weakness. He put too much on himself in the playoffs and took a bad shot to lose a series. The Olympic team he led lost 3 which is a first for team USA. That’s the best player in the world? I just don’t get it. Yes, he’s skilled but also his height is an advantage.
    Real2KInsider
    Higher.
    2K21 Final PG Ratings (PS4)
    97 OVR Stephen Curry: 26.3 PER, 66 TS%, 35 USG%, 31 AST%
    94 OVR Damian Lillard: 25.6 PER, 62 TS%, 31 USG%, 35 AST%
    94 OVR Luka Doncic: 25.3 PER, 59 TS%, 36 USG%, 44 AST%
    91 OVR Kyrie Irving: 21.4 PER, 61 TS%, 30 USG%, 29 AST%
    89 OVR Chris Paul: 21.4 PER, 60 TS%, 23 USG%, 41 AST%
    88 OVR Russell Westbrook: 19.5 PER, 51 TS%, 30 USG%, 49 AST%
    87 OVR De'Aaron Fox: 20.7 PER, 57 TS%, 31 USG%, 33 AST%
    87 OVR Shai Gilgeous-Alexander: 21.6 PER, 62 TS%, 28 USG%, 31 AST%
    87 OVR Trae Young: 23.0 PER, 59 TS%, 33 USG%, 46 AST%
    86 OVR Jamal Murray: 18.3 PER, 59 TS%, 25 USG%, 20 AST%
    86 OVR Ben Simmons: 18.3 PER, 58 TS%, 20 USG%, 31 AST%
    86 OVR Jrue Holiday: 20.0 PER, 59 TS%, 22 USG%, 26 AST%
    It stands out as embarrassing from an even novice-level glance.
    (League-wide Trae ranked 17th in PER, 6th in USG%, 2nd in AST%).
    (Yes I'm aware he doesn't play defense, neither do half the players on this list. That's not where PG value comes from).
    He was the clear best player on a playoff team (and this again doesn't even factor the two upsets that occurred in those playoff games). This should have put a gigantic magnifying glass on him.
    2K controls OVRs using Intangibles; Attributes are largely no longer relevant towards OVR adjustments. They simply fail to understand which tier he belongs in. He was the 4th best PG in the league by a pretty clear margin and it's obvious he won't land there in 2K's ratings.
    (This also doesn't exactly paint the Jrue Holiday rating in particularly good light)
    TLDR: I spent 30 mins researching to verify the above ratings/rankings are horse****. This isn't brain surgery, this is Basketball-Reference.

    Maybe the rule change stating players can’t flop around and generate contact by morphing their bodies in weird motions has something to do with it. No doubt Trae will be one of the most affected by it.
    Hopefully players have their correct wing spans this year. Patrick Ewing immediately comes to mind. His arms should be way longer as should a lot of other players. Hopefully they add a full body editing tool.
    JKSportsGamer1984
    Hopefully players have their correct wing spans this year. Patrick Ewing immediately comes to mind. His arms should be way longer as should a lot of other players. Hopefully they add a full body editing tool.

    Agreed. Or at least just the ability to edit wingspans/height like they did a few years ago.
    VictorMG
    I think people take the overall ratings way too seriously. How much bearing can you say it really has on gameplay without knowing exactly what the specific ratings are?

    The OVR hasn't mattered for the on-court gameplay in a number of years. It's primary function is to provide "player value" in MyLeague. The AI uses it for Accolades, Trades, Contracts, Lineups, etc.
    The 2K roster team is sloppy and plays favorites. If Trae played for the Warriors he'd be a 95 w/ a 3pt rating 10 points overrated, multiple HOF badges, etc.
    JKSportsGamer1984
    Hopefully players have their correct wing spans this year. Patrick Ewing immediately comes to mind. His arms should be way longer as should a lot of other players. Hopefully they add a full body editing tool.

    Ewing?! SHAQ is so f****** skinny in 2K21, it’s absurd!
    Steve_OS
    Zach LaVine - Overall 87

    Lavine somehow lower than how he ended the game last year despite being one of three to average over 25 ppg ane shoot 50% from the field and 40% from 3 on high volume . But dame all offense and the worst defender on earth a 90+. I bet Booker , Beal and Mitchell will be 90’s
    AIRJ23
    It looks like they put his head on a tree stump. Doesn’t look proportional or like his noodle-esque frame at all.

    That’s KD , his neck was always a lil wide tho he’s skinny , plus it might be a new scan since he’s a cover guy tho last year could have been an older scan as well

    MoneyOvaHuds
    Lavine somehow lower than how he ended the game last year despite being one of three to average over 25 ppg ane shoot 50% from the field and 40% from 3 on high volume . But dame all offense and the worst defender on earth a 90+. I bet Booker , Beal and Mitchell will be 90’s

    I can guarantee you any real life player list would have Booker, Beal, and Mitchell over Lavine. Also think ratings are not a rating of what he did last year as much as it is a rating of what he will do next year. All these players are on MAX contracts, LAvines is not. Lavine is gonna have low awareness, he doesn't pass well, and he doesn't play good defense.
    TBH Im not even sure Lavine would be in the top 25 of players.
    VictorMG
    I think people take the overall ratings way too seriously. How much bearing can you say it really has on gameplay without knowing exactly what the specific ratings are?
    As long as a player is capable of doing what he does in real life, who cares what the big number next to his face is?

    THIS! Overall rating is literally just a window dressing number that reflects an algorithm that weights the individual stat ratings. As long as the individual stat ratings are correct, overall rating means literally nothing. Why dudes are getting worked up about it is beyond me. :nocomprende:
    lemarflacco
    I can guarantee you any real life player list would have Booker, Beal, and Mitchell over Lavine. Also think ratings are not a rating of what he did last year as much as it is a rating of what he will do next year. All these players are on MAX contracts, LAvines is not. Lavine is gonna have low awareness, he doesn't pass well, and he doesn't play good defense.
    TBH Im not even sure Lavine would be in the top 25 of players.

    Well in real life if you look at the numbers there’s nothing separating them . Lavine’s is the most athletic of the bunch and the best shooter of the bunch . He can get his own shot and has gotten better every year . And I’m being legit I wouldn’t trade him for either of the players listed because it’s redundant imo . If Tatum was listed in that crop that’s only player I would offer lavine up for . Beal and Booker are not good defenders as well , Lavine has been a growing playmaker problem is he hasn’t had much to pass to besides a handful of games with Vuc. Please tell me you don’t watch Bulls basketball in another way. Also I agree Lavine’s defense isn’t the greatest but he’s far from poor like he use to be . He was used as one of their best on ball defender on the Olympics team but his biggest struggle is his off ball defense
    mb625
    As long as the individual stat ratings are correct,

    Curry and Klay's 3pt ratings are key examples of where they ignore their formulas.
    Badges matter as much as ratings and those are far from complete/accurate for the players in the league.
    overall rating means literally nothing.

    It actually has many gameplay applications.
    Real2KInsider
    Curry and Klay's 3pt ratings are key examples of where they ignore their formulas.
    Badges matter as much as ratings and those are far from complete/accurate for the players in the league.
    It actually has many gameplay applications.

    I suppose you'd have to prove that first claim empirically, but I would not be surprised at that.
    HOWEVER, on your second point... as you've already conceded, badges matter as much as ratings. All things being equal, what is the "actual gameplay implication" of a 96 overall vs a 91, if badging and such is equal? My experience with MyTeam over time has taught me that the "actual gameplay implications" of overall itself is absolutely nothing. 91 Bonga was outplaying 99s in 2k20. This year, 94 Jaden McDaniels can stand toe to toe with certain 99s. Realistically, overall rating is a window dressing. It's the individual stat ratings that make up the algorithm, along with badging, that have actual gameplay implications. Not overall.
    (EDIT: Also, don't forget that literally useless attributes like Intangibles can also effect overall when they do literally nothing in game. The 97 with high intangibles could be functionally WORSE than the 91 with a lower intangible rating.)
    lemarflacco
    I can guarantee you any real life player list would have Booker, Beal, and Mitchell over Lavine.

    Booker doesn't belong in this group.
    Harden: 24.5 PER, 62 TS%, 28 USG%, 44 AST%
    Beal: 22.7 PER, 59 TS%, 34 USG%, 21 AST%
    LaVine: 21.5 PER, 63 TS%, 31 USG%, 23 AST%
    Mitchell: 21.3 PER, 57 TS%, 34 USG%, 27 AST%
    McCollum: 20.8 PER, 58 TS%, 27 USG%, 23 AST%
    George: 20.5 PER, 60 TS%, 30 USG%, 25 AST%
    Booker: 19.2 PER, 59 TS%, 33 USG%, 21 AST%
    LaVine had better scoring efficiency than Harden on higher volume.
    Also think ratings are not a rating of what he did last year as much as it is a rating of what he will do next year.

    2K is definitely not projecting here, this is all based on 2021.
    All these players are on MAX contracts, LAvines is not.

    Which has a lot more to do with the player he was when he signed his contract, nothing to do with the player he is today.
    Lavine is gonna have low awareness, he doesn't pass well, and he doesn't play good defense

    You basically described Booker & Beal.
    Those two and LaVine have near identical A/T ratios.
    TBH Im not even sure Lavine would be in the top 25 of players.

    He was an All-Star which is essentially top 25. He's in the top 5 of SGs.
    AIRJ23
    Lmao y’all really baby KD. Dude is at best a 44 on defense, airballed out of the second round, his performances were no better than several others in the same playoffs, and he lost THREE GAMES on his Olympic team. Two in the pre run and one in the actual Olympics (first US loss in decades). 96 is generous as hell.

    The man played 58 minutes in that Game 7 and hit the shot to send the game in OT. Without Kyrie and an unhealthy Harden, he carried Brooklyn. He also carried Team USA to a gold medal after they lost those games. He did all of that after coming off a torn Achilles. That's the worst basketball injury that you can have. Trust me I know. He is the best offensive weapon in the history of NBA basketball outside of MJ. He deserves that 96.
    We going back and forth over ratings and the game comes out in 3 weeks, I'm more concerned as to why the information about the game as a whole is coming out so slowly.
    cthurt
    We going back and forth over ratings and the game comes out in 3 weeks, I'm more concerned as to why the information about the game as a whole is coming out so slowly.

    Yeah. This is slower than normal even for 2K...I feel like Ronnie has been relatively quiet too.
    ksuttonjr76
    Yeah. This is slower than normal even for 2K...I feel like Ronnie has been relatively quiet too.

    I'm usually one to say the information will come when it comes but we are nearly 20 days out and we have nothing substantial for information. We've seen and heard more about Fifa, eFootball, and NHL. Hopefully there will be some surprises but at this point my expectations are lower than ever.
    scottyp180
    I'm usually one to say the information will come when it comes but we are nearly 20 days out and we have nothing substantial for information. We've seen and heard more about Fifa, eFootball, and NHL. Hopefully there will be some surprises but at this point my expectations are lower than ever.

    Could it be a possibility that the game could be delayed or is this just typical 2K slow poking with the news!
    scottyp180
    I'm usually one to say the information will come when it comes but we are nearly 20 days out and we have nothing substantial for information. We've seen and heard more about Fifa, eFootball, and NHL. Hopefully there will be some surprises but at this point my expectations are lower than ever.
    I just came to this thread to ask the same thing.
    I was telling someone a few weeks ago to chill a little when the soundtrack was revealed because I figured the real information would begin to trickle a month out. But now I think we're about three weeks out and not so much as a peep, from what I've gathered.
    I figured I was just out of the loop because I missed last year's release. My memory's not great on this so I don't want to over-shoot it but I feel like we used to be able to count on at least four weeks of 2K blogs to hit the essentials (gameplay, franchise, MyPlayer, trailer, online, special feature, etc.)
    If I were a betting man, I'd guess it's a combination of COVID, the short production cycle, and maybe even a focus on just getting next gen running, playing, and looking well so they can branch into more features next year.
    I honestly expect this from 2K, esp from their actions the last few years, but this has really got to stop.
    There's no reason they cannot even communicate with their own audience! No roadmap or anything! & then when the game releases with all of these issues or overlooks, we are the ones forced to deal with it.
    They are more than capable of releasing a more than pleasing game each year, but they seem to have lost the ability to really connect with their true community. I feel we used to be able to help create the game alongside with them...I know there's a suggestion thread etc, but the amount of silence is so disappointing.
    Of course they can go & drop a trailer tomorrow & none of this matters to the majority anymore...but this feels like a slap in the face. 3 weeks out, & all we have are ratings from last year alongside screenshots of players who pretty much look the same.
    I'm just ranting at this point but I've had every release since NBA 2K itself on Dreamcast. It's just so frustrating the direction this game has taken over the years, & last year was hands down my least favorite 2K. Just when I thought it couldn't be any worse, they found a way to completely take the fun factor out of the game. This is my make or break year, & right now I have zero confidence in their execution!
    Please prove me wrong 2K, I dare you!
    Charles Bliss
    Could it be a possibility that the game could be delayed or is this just typical 2K slow poking with the news!

    I wouldn't count on a delay and, even for 2K, this is late to be this silent. At this point we usually at least have a trailer and maybe a blog.
    I wouldn't mind a delay if it was on the table. I don't understand why an NBA game needs to release in early September when the season doesn't start until mid to late October. I'd like to see them push the release date back a little further next year and give themselves some extra development time.
    Charles Bliss
    Could it be a possibility that the game could be delayed or is this just typical 2K slow poking with the news!

    They can delay it to October...you know the regular release date time period lol
    I don't even know why they do a September release date when it was always an October release.
    As for the lack of info...I dunno guys some of you have been around the block already. 2k isn't exactly reinventing the wheel when it comes to basketball and they will stick to a formula that works. They will always add a ton of new animations. Defense will be touched up and the controls will be tighter than last years. Until a patch comes along and changes everything.
    Then we go through this again next year except 2k will release info a day before release lol
    I think that its either 2k has learned over the years that capitalizing on the hype of new info leads to more impulse buys and better sales over the slow-boil approach and decided to go all in this year...
    Or they had major stability issues that had them questioning what features would make this version, slowing down the roll-out.
    Charles Bliss
    Could it be a possibility that the game could be delayed or is this just typical 2K slow poking with the news!

    Brian Mazique said he spoke with someone from 2K and they said the game is still coming out on the announced day. I suppose things could still change but we’ll see.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Since it's got this late, they may be waiting for the release of Madden, and then they'll start dropping gameplay info. Either way, I expect next week to be a good week.
    Yeah...THAT Guy
    Brian Mazique said he spoke with someone from 2K and they said the game is still coming out on the announced day. I suppose things could still change but we’ll see.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    I’ve heard this dev cycle was much shorter than year’s prior, due to next-gen.
    Let’s just hope their efforts were mostly consumed with fine-tuning gameplay.
    I feel like 2K has yet to fully realize the pace the modern NBA is accustomed to. Once they divert from cross-gen production in the next few years, we’ll truly see what the team is capable of not hindered by 10 year old CPU’s (outdated hardware).
    Besides, if 2K can’t manage to pump out a fully-finished product by the deadline, they’ll just approve a ton of patches after the initial release.
    TarHeelPhenom
    The man played 58 minutes in that Game 7 and hit the shot to send the game in OT. Without Kyrie and an unhealthy Harden, he carried Brooklyn. He also carried Team USA to a gold medal after they lost those games. He did all of that after coming off a torn Achilles. That's the worst basketball injury that you can have. Trust me I know. He is the best offensive weapon in the history of NBA basketball outside of MJ. He deserves that 96.

    Giannis put up better performances in the finals and actually won. It can be argued that KD hogged minutes and the ball which took his teammates out of the game. To be honest the Bucks played TERRIBLE basketball that series and so did the Nets. Was one of the sloppiest series’ in especially those early games. Many players put up big solo performances in losses.
    As the team leader the Olympics are on his back. Losing THREE games, including back to backs is an embarrassment. Let’s not act like getting the gold is enough. That’s a given. If Team USA doesn’t go undefeated it’s considered an L.
    I’ll agree the 96 is reasonable, but higher? C’mon nothing he did last year justifies that. Even if he wins this year, big whoop, he did it on the most stacked team in history, right ahead of the previous most stacked team in history being the Warrior who were 73-9 before he jumped on.
    His talent is there, he’s way taller than opponents so that’s another benefit to him. His mentality and attitude isn’t there. You look at the greats like MJ, Kobe, it’s all about a tough mindset. KD is so soft mentally it’s actually sad and a reflection of his career, considering the talent there.
    I actually do agree with you in that he can be the best offensive weapon outside of MJ. Every now and then he does appear humble like when he said “Mj is one of one, God level, unmatched, unparalled, a pure master at this ****. I’m still watching his games to learn. Leave me out of it please” in response to two guys debating them. I wish we’d see more of that KD. Not the dude harassing random people because they said he had a bad night.
    No doubt with a winning mindset, KD’s career would be amongst the top tier. PERSONALLY, *considering* his talent, I see his career path as a semi disappointment. And that’s taking into consideration his injury. Could he ever carry a real team (e.g not a ring buying megateam) from the ground up like Giannis or MJ or late Kobe, etc.? I just don’t think he’s proven he has what it takes. But hey that’s just me.
    ksuttonjr76
    The most concerning red flag is the lack of a special event for the YouTube content creators...
    I feel like that'd be one of the first things to go in a COVID world. Rolling out such an event in person is a non-starter at this point but even a virtual one seems like might just be unnecessary hassle if they're struggling to meet a shortened deadline.
    That's just me being an optimist though.
    VDusen04
    I feel like that'd be one of the first things to go in a COVID world. Rolling out such an even in person is a non-starter at this point but even a virtual one seems like might just be unnecessary hassle if they're struggling to meet a shortened deadline.
    That's just me being an optimist though.
    I agree, but I feel like 2K Sports rely pretty heavy on the YouTube creators to promote their game. If anything, YouTube creators seem like they were a biggest part of their marketing.
    Am I the only one who thinks creating a game in a Covid era means if anything they should have more time to dedicate to fine tuning the software?
    AIRJ23
    Giannis put up better performances in the finals and actually won. It can be argued that KD hogged minutes and the ball which took his teammates out of the game. To be honest the Bucks played TERRIBLE basketball that series and so did the Nets. Was one of the sloppiest series’ in especially those early games. Many players put up big solo performances in losses.

    Bucks won conference Finals without Giannis... they are a great team "despite" the greek freak, who lacks big time on one of the fundamentals of basketball like shooting and, only because of that, it is an insult to intelligence to think he is the best player or should be the highest rating player in a videogame...
    If it would not be because of the bad calls from NBA referees clearly favouring Giannis superstar over and over again (defenders can not breath close to him as they will call a fault) he would not be that good. I would like to see Anteto dominating in FIBA ball like Kevin Durant does (simply because he is the best and more complete player in the world nowadays), but you will never see that because he is not that great without the benefit of superstar calls maximized in his case... NBA sucks big time on that aspect.
    ksuttonjr76
    I agree, but I feel like 2K Sports rely pretty heavy on the YouTube creators to promote their game. If anything, YouTube creators seem like they were a biggest part of their marketing.

    2k doesn’t really need them , yea they help promote but as soon as Info drops about the game they will start selling regardless
    This just my opinion of course, but no game, not even a brand new AAA never before seen Franchise, and especially not a game that comes out yearly, needs more than a couple of weeks to hype and unveil everything that a potential customer needs to know about it.
    Most people want information before, and most companies oblige them with weeks and months of marketing, a lot people get nervous when it isn't revealed early as well of course, but it's really not necessary, IMO.
    Guard-ian
    Bucks won conference Finals without Giannis... they are a great team "despite" the greek freak, who lacks big time on one of the fundamentals of basketball like shooting and, only because of that, it is an insult to intelligence to think he is the best player or should be the highest rating player in a videogame...
    If it would not be because of the bad calls from NBA referees clearly favouring Giannis superstar over and over again (defenders can not breath close to him as they will call a fault) he would not be that good. I would like to see Anteto dominating in FIBA ball like Kevin Durant does (simply because he is the best and more complete player in the world nowadays), but you will never see that because he is not that great without the benefit of superstar calls maximized in his case... NBA sucks big time on that aspect.

    Giannis is the most dominant interior scorer since Shaq. Rivaled only by LeBron. His defense is DPOY caliber player on top of this. And he's probably the next best 6'11" playmaker in league history right after Jokic. Let's not pretend he's Ben Simmons.
    Don't warp your sensibilities just so you can win an online argument w/ Johnny Sportsfan.
    MoneyOvaHuds
    2k doesn’t really need them , yea they help promote but as soon as Info drops about the game they will start selling regardless

    The game will sell even without the "info"
    Real2KInsider
    Higher.
    2K21 Final PG Ratings (PS4)
    97 OVR Stephen Curry: 26.3 PER, 66 TS%, 35 USG%, 31 AST%
    94 OVR Damian Lillard: 25.6 PER, 62 TS%, 31 USG%, 35 AST%
    94 OVR Luka Doncic: 25.3 PER, 59 TS%, 36 USG%, 44 AST%
    91 OVR Kyrie Irving: 21.4 PER, 61 TS%, 30 USG%, 29 AST%
    89 OVR Chris Paul: 21.4 PER, 60 TS%, 23 USG%, 41 AST%
    88 OVR Russell Westbrook: 19.5 PER, 51 TS%, 30 USG%, 49 AST%
    87 OVR De'Aaron Fox: 20.7 PER, 57 TS%, 31 USG%, 33 AST%
    87 OVR Shai Gilgeous-Alexander: 21.6 PER, 62 TS%, 28 USG%, 31 AST%
    87 OVR Trae Young: 23.0 PER, 59 TS%, 33 USG%, 46 AST%
    86 OVR Jamal Murray: 18.3 PER, 59 TS%, 25 USG%, 20 AST%
    86 OVR Ben Simmons: 18.3 PER, 58 TS%, 20 USG%, 31 AST%
    86 OVR Jrue Holiday: 20.0 PER, 59 TS%, 22 USG%, 26 AST%
    It stands out as embarrassing from an even novice-level glance.
    (League-wide Trae ranked 17th in PER, 6th in USG%, 2nd in AST%).
    (Yes I'm aware he doesn't play defense, neither do half the players on this list. That's not where PG value comes from).
    He was the clear best player on a playoff team (and this again doesn't even factor the two upsets that occurred in those playoff games). This should have put a gigantic magnifying glass on him.
    2K controls OVRs using Intangibles; Attributes are largely no longer relevant towards OVR adjustments. They simply fail to understand which tier he belongs in. He was the 4th best PG in the league by a pretty clear margin and it's obvious he won't land there in 2K's ratings.
    (This also doesn't exactly paint the Jrue Holiday rating in particularly good light)
    TLDR: I spent 30 mins researching to verify the above ratings/rankings are horse****. This isn't brain surgery, this is Basketball-Reference.

    Realistically what would you suggest to boost for a guy who doesn't play defense, isn't overly athletic, doesn't rebound, and shot 41% from the field and 31% from 3 in the playoffs?
    I get what you're trying to say but there is no attribute values for PER, "best player on a playoff team", "getting two upsets", those things don't dictate individual ratings lol. And while TS% is a great measure of real life efficiency it's also largely driven by FT% (especially for a guy like Trae who can get there 8 times a night) and if we are being real FT rating isn't going to be a huge factor on a 2K overall.
    ojandpizza
    Realistically what would you suggest to boost for a guy who doesn't play defense, isn't overly athletic, doesn't rebound, and shot 41% from the field and 31% from 3 in the playoffs?
    I get what you're trying to say but there is no attribute values for PER, "best player on a playoff team", "getting two upsets", those things don't dictate individual ratings lol. And while TS% is a great measure of real life efficiency it's also largely driven by FT% (especially for a guy like Trae who can get there 8 times a night) and if we are being real FT rating isn't going to be a huge factor on a 2K overall.

    I always thought that the draw foul rating on NBA games should be much more effective in games. There was an old NBA game that I played back on the genesis and that is the only rating I cared about. I would dominate with an Old Moses Malone because he drew fouls.
    As a Hawks fan Trae is an offensive monster, and I am cool with the 89 rating if they treated other players the same way. I honestly think Trae and Lillard are the same level of player imo.
    But then again, I don’t do player ratings or know how the formula works.
    I think 90’s should be reserved for 2 way players. Guys like Trae, Lillard, and Luka who don’t play defense would be capped at 89 if it was up to me. However, that is just my subjective bias on how ratings should be done.
    Real2KInsider
    Giannis is the most dominant interior scorer since Shaq. Rivaled only by LeBron. His defense is DPOY caliber player on top of this. And he's probably the next best 6'11" playmaker in league history right after Jokic. Let's not pretend he's Ben Simmons.

    In my view that's another common mistake... Giannis never defend the best player in the other team, he has been a very good help defender last POs though... but his overal defense and effort there is overrated because he is so important in the offense, that he tends to rest a lot on the other end of the floor....
    And that's usual aswell with other 2-way superstars in NBA2k, like Kawhi or Lebron, they are way too overrated in their defense ratings in my book, because the don't put a constant effort in that end the whole game like they did in his prime (Lebron) or when he was a specialist his first years (Kawhi), however in 2k they can be superstars in both ends the whole game thanks to those inflated ratings that in my opinion, should be reserved only to real specialists (Smarts and the likes)...
    On the other hand, another topic I would like to bring regarding 2k ratings is that it seems that winning is not been taken into account enough... You can compare stats (which never tell you the whole story) but forget about the most important one... The Wins... an a team like the Suns should be recognised for their run in the last POs... But Cam Payne has been downgraded? What? LOL... Jrue Holiday, to me, he was the most important player in The Finals for the Bucks... even more than the greek freak... without him... Suns would be champions.... and he has been downgraded also? What? And Middleton +3? (that's well deserved but not consistent with the rest...).... I could even agreed that Giannis (with all his defects) should have a +1 at least...
    Winning has to be rewarded, period!!! ;-)
    Guard-ian
    In my view that's another common mistake... Giannis never defend the best player in the other team, he has been a very good help defender last POs though... but his overal defense and effort there is overrated because he is so important in the offense, that he tends to rest a lot on the other end of the floor....
    And that's usual aswell with other 2-way superstars in NBA2k, like Kawhi or Lebron, they are way too overrated in their defense ratings in my book, because the don't put a constant effort in that end the whole game like they did in his prime (Lebron) or when he was a specialist his first years (Kawhi), however in 2k they can be superstars in both ends the whole game thanks to those inflated ratings that in my opinion, should be reserved only to real specialists (Smarts and the likes)...
    On the other hand, another topic I would like to bring regarding 2k ratings is that it seems that winning is not been taken into account enough... You can compare stats (which never tell you the whole story) but forget about the most important one... The Wins... an a team like the Suns should be recognised for their run in the last POs... But Cam Payne has been downgraded? What? LOL... Jrue Holiday, to me, he was the most important player in The Finals for the Bucks... even more than the greek freak... without him... Suns would be champions.... and he has been downgraded also? What? And Middleton +3? (that's well deserved but not consistent with the rest...).... I could even agreed that Giannis (with all his defects) should have a +1 at least...
    Winning has to be rewarded, period!!! ;-)

    Referring to the consistency on Defense or Offense, for that matter, there should be a new rating much like FIFA which has a Defense or Offense phase or consistency rating, in the scales of: low, medium, or high for either category. And that show the players effort in the game in their offensive or defense roles, which reflects their real life counterparts.
    For example, Messi Defensive consistency is low, so you can see him putting very little effort on D during the game but is set on High on offense and that shows once he touches the ball. This makes sense as he is mainly an offense genius and saves his energy for that side of the game more than he does for defense.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    There is literally no attribute value for winning though.
    Some of Y’all forget overalls are based on individually abilities, and then badges. I think slight bumps could/should be given to guys who can carry that same level into the playoffs.. but outside of that, two guys who shoot 45% from three on the same attempts shouldn’t be differentiated by which team won more games, which guy made an All-Star game, which guy was All-NBA, etc.
    There is no 2K attribute for - best player on a team that won 7 more games and had x many all stars and made it this far in the playoffs. Like if it’s silly to say Jrue Holiday won a ring so he should shoot better than Steph then it’s just as silly to raise anything else to be better than other guys at things he’s not better than them at just because he won ring. This isn’t voting for the HOF, this is literally just filling individual attributes.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ojandpizza
    There is literally no attribute value for winning though.
    Some of Y’all forget overalls are based on individually abilities, and then badges. I think slight bumps could/should be given to guys who can carry that same level into the playoffs.. but outside of that, two guys who shoot 45% from three on the same attempts shouldn’t be differentiated by which team won more games, which guy made an All-Star game, which guy was All-NBA, etc.
    There is no 2K attribute for - best player on a team that won 7 more games and had x many all stars and made it this far in the playoffs. Like if it’s silly to say Jrue Holiday won a ring so he should shoot better than Steph then it’s just as silly to raise anything else to be better than other guys at things he’s not better than them at just because he won ring. This isn’t voting for the HOF, this is literally just filling individually attributes.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    I agree, there is no attribute for that but winning is the ultimate goal in Sports and if you do that consistently and much more than others, that means that perhaps you are better than what your individual stats show, because there are still too many things in basketball than cannot be covered with stats...
    Besides, there are perceptions and a different thing is the reality... for instance, to me Devin Booker is a dog and a much better defender than what many people thinks (not great, but pretty good), in fact, in last Finals, Booker who played injured in the hamstring according with Monty and with a broken nose, he was never the point of attack for Milwaukee offense, however CP3, who is recognised as a great defender and it is in 2k ratings... he was the objetive of the attack of Bucks offense (specially Holiday) many times, and that worked pretty well for them, basically CP3 was destroyed and with that his team, Phoenix Suns...
    So Booker defense should be much better than CP3 nowadays if you pay attention to what happened in the court (at least in the last POs...), but in 2k it is exactly the opposite...
    Guard-ian
    I agree, there is no attribute for that but winning is the ultimate goal in Sports and if you do that consistently and much more than others, that means that perhaps you are better than what your individual stats show, because there are still too many things in basketball than cannot be covered with stats...
    Besides, there are perceptions and a different thing is the reality... for instance, to me Devin Booker is a dog and a much better defender than what many people thinks (not great, but pretty good), in fact, in last Finals, Booker who played injured in the hamstring according with Monty and with a broken nose, he was never the point of attack for Milwaukee offense, however CP3, who is recognised as a great defender and it is in 2k ratings... he was the objetive of the attack of Bucks offense (specially Holiday) many times, and that worked pretty well for them, basically CP3 was destroyed and with that his team, Phoenix Suns...
    So Booker defense should be much better than CP3 nowadays if you pay attention to what happened in the court (at least in the last POs...), but in 2k it is exactly the opposite...

    Winning is the objective, but winning doesn't decide how well somebody shoots from 3 or what their dunk rating should be. Again we are talking in context of video game induvial skill ratings.
    Likewise, a players rating shouldn't also be solely determined by how they looked in a 6 game stretch or against a single opponent/match-up either.
    And you mean he was the point of attack for Holiday who was held to just 36% from the field and 31% from 3? And that couldn't have anything at all to do with Holiday being bigger than CP3 but holding no size advantage over Booker? CP3 was also injured mind you, he had surgery after the series even. And if we are talking just looking at a 1 series match-up how many times did Phoenix just flat out "rest" Booker on defense by sticking him on Bobby Portis/PJ Tucker? I know he spent large chunks of game 6 just standing in the corner on those cats. And his primary matchup only averaged 24ppg on 45% and 36%.
    Chris Paul as of last season is still a better defender than Booker. He has better defensive instincts, topped him in steals, DRtg, DBpm, DWS, STL%, BLK%, Defensive rebound%.. He also still ranks 16th in ESPN's DRPM compared to Booker 83rd.
    To be fair Booker is an improving defender, Chris Paul is aging, tons of matchups Booker likely is a better assignment. And 2K might still be overrating CP3 on that end. However there are certain attributes where CP3 is going to be "better" regardless. He has better hands, gets more steals and will justifiably be higher there. He has a higher BLK% and Defensive rebound % despite being so much older and smaller. So he's going to rank higher there. His defensive IQ is exponentially higher. Whatever the defender he is now he was once a top tier defensive guard, the instincts from hose days are what keep him serviceable still at this age. Suns went from a middle of the pack defense last year to a top 10 defense after adding him this year, though some of that is progression, some is also his leadership on both ends. OKC also dropped from 7th in DRtg to 24th after losing him, though they also tanked the last few weeks.
    Maybe if there was an attribute for "player Jrue Holiday would rather attack" Booker would top him there? But as limited as the defensive ratings are in 2K it's tough to just say "this guy should be higher" if you can't point to 2K ratings he should be exponentially better at. Realistically every tough matchup is typically handled by Bridges and Crowder, so watching booker rest on corner shooters and CP3 get attacked by Jrue isn't saying much in the grand scheme of their overall defensive abilities.
    ojandpizza
    Winning is the objective, but winning doesn't decide how well somebody shoots from 3 or what their dunk rating should be. Again we are talking in context of video game induvial skill ratings.
    Likewise, a players rating shouldn't also be solely determined by how they looked in a 6 game stretch or against a single opponent/match-up either.
    And you mean he was the point of attack for Holiday who was held to just 36% from the field and 31% from 3? And that couldn't have anything at all to do with Holiday being bigger than CP3 but holding no size advantage over Booker? CP3 was also injured mind you, he had surgery after the series even. And if we are talking just looking at a 1 series match-up how many times did Phoenix just flat out "rest" Booker on defense by sticking him on Bobby Portis/PJ Tucker? I know he spent large chunks of game 6 just standing in the corner on those cats. And his primary matchup only averaged 24ppg on 45% and 36%.
    Chris Paul as of last season is still a better defender than Booker. He has better defensive instincts, topped him in steals, DRtg, DBpm, DWS, STL%, BLK%, Defensive rebound%.. He also still ranks 16th in ESPN's DRPM compared to Booker 83rd.
    To be fair Booker is an improving defender, Chris Paul is aging, tons of matchups Booker likely is a better assignment. And 2K might still be overrating CP3 on that end. However there are certain attributes where CP3 is going to be "better" regardless. He has better hands, gets more steals and will justifiably be higher there. He has a higher BLK% and Defensive rebound % despite being so much older and smaller. So he's going to rank higher there. His defensive IQ is exponentially higher. Whatever the defender he is now he was once a top tier defensive guard, the instincts from hose days are what keep him serviceable still at this age. Suns went from a middle of the pack defense last year to a top 10 defense after adding him this year, though some of that is progression, some is also his leadership on both ends. OKC also dropped from 7th in DRtg to 24th after losing him, though they also tanked the last few weeks.
    Maybe if there was an attribute for "player Jrue Holiday would rather attack" Booker would top him there? But as limited as the defensive ratings are in 2K it's tough to just say "this guy should be higher" if you can't point to 2K ratings he should be exponentially better at. Realistically every tough matchup is typically handled by Bridges and Crowder, so watching booker rest on corner shooters and CP3 get attacked by Jrue isn't saying much in the grand scheme of their overall defensive abilities.

    Ohhh! I can see you are one of those who believe in numbers and advanced stats as a source of truth... I am sorry, with all due respect I love basketball not maths... I only base my opinion in what I see in the court and again, we will have to agree to disagree on the matter that, to me, right now Booker's defense is underrated as Paul's defense is overrated...
    Guard-ian
    In my view that's another common mistake... Giannis never defend the best player in the other team, he has been a very good help defender last POs though

    That isn't a "mistake". There is very little Iso/Post play nowadays beyond a small handful of elites. Being a "Lockdown" defender barely matters nowadays due to all the switching.
    but his overal defense and effort there is overrated because he is so important in the offense, that he tends to rest a lot on the other end of the floor....

    You're trying to minimize the impact of a player who was All-Defense 1st team for the 3rd consecutive season. Giannis is the most important defensive player on the league's best defensive team over the last 3 seasons.
    Giannis doesn't spend that much energy on offense, certainly not relative to ball-dominant stars. He is mostly a transition / opportunistic player while Middleton/Holiday do most of the shot creation in the half-court.
    Real2KInsider

    You're trying to minimize the impact of a player who was All-Defense 1st team for the 3rd consecutive season. Giannis is the most important defensive player on the league's best defensive team over the last 3 seasons.

    I am not trying to minimize him overall, I am just pointing out that his defensive ratings in 2k are way too exaggerated in my view... And it is common with all 2-way superstars.
    If Giannis were that good on defense as his 2k ratings suggest (95 perimeter defense, 95 lateral quickness... really? that's much more than most guards... LOL), he would have taken KD directly in the POs, and that's what people does in 2k unrealistically because ratings allow that...
    If Kawhi were that good on defense as 2k ratings suggest, he would have taken Luka all that series instead of been most of the time in the weak side, and that's what people in 2k does unrealistically because ratings allow that...
    If Lebron were that good on defense as 2k ratings suggest, he would have taken Booker in that 47pts elimination game like he did with Derrick Rose when they both were on their prime....
    If CP3 were that good on defense as 2k ratings suggest, he wouldn't have been obliterated by Jrue in the Finals... etc. etc. etc....
    Guard-ian
    I am not trying to minimize him overall, I am just pointing out that his defensive ratings in 2k are way too exaggerated in my view... And it is common with all 2-way superstars.
    If Giannis were that good on defense as his 2k ratings suggest (95 perimeter defense, 95 lateral quickness... really? that's much more than most guards... LOL), he would have taken KD directly in the POs, and that's what people does in 2k unrealistically because ratings allow that...
    If Kawhi were that good on defense as 2k ratings suggest, he would have taken Luka all that series instead of been most of the time in the weak side, and that's what people in 2k does unrealistically because ratings allow that...
    If Lebron were that good on defense as 2k ratings suggest, he would have taken Booker in that 47pts elimination game like he did with Derrick Rose when they both were on their prime....
    If CP3 were that good on defense as 2k ratings suggest, he wouldn't have been obliterated by Jrue in the Finals... etc. etc. etc....

    If your point is that there are essentially little to no truly good defenders in today’s softball league then I agree. I’m an aficionado for watching different era games back to back and when I watch Giannis I see a guy playing an entirely different intensity and sport on defense compared to most players now. He’s like a classic ball time capsule. His defense in the finals was the best NBA defense I’ve seen in awhile. And it was during the FINALS which is where stepping up really counts and what separates the greats from the would-be’s.
    As for not guarding the best player on the other teams. That appears to be another weird element of how most of the “elites” play right now. No one wants to guard the best player on another team. Just soft culturing or maybe vanity where no one wants to get shown up.
    And lol are you bringing up KD’s FIBA performance as a positive? He led his team to one of the worst Team USA performances and records in history. First ever back to back losses. First losses to certain countries. I can GUARANTEE Giannis would lead his TEAM to a better record as he actually has built teams as a leader (not ring buying jumping around) and is way more accustomed to the more physical (and far superior) FIBA rules.
    alabamarob
    I always thought that the draw foul rating on NBA games should be much more effective in games. There was an old NBA game that I played back on the genesis and that is the only rating I cared about. I would dominate with an Old Moses Malone because he drew fouls.
    As a Hawks fan Trae is an offensive monster, and I am cool with the 89 rating if they treated other players the same way. I honestly think Trae and Lillard are the same level of player imo.
    But then again, I don’t do player ratings or know how the formula works.
    I think 90’s should be reserved for 2 way players. Guys like Trae, Lillard, and Luka who don’t play defense would be capped at 89 if it was up to me. However, that is just my subjective bias on how ratings should be done.

    THIS. Defense is 50% of the game yet you wouldn’t know it considering everyone treats OVR as a solely offensive metric. You see that priority in how so many (most) of today’s stars play no defense. We’re debating Bookers defense? Really? Dude is soft as hell on that side of the floor. I keep hearing the words “getting better” for terrible defenders who are considered league leaders (like Harden). Like people are really babying some players that much. One factor lost on a lot of people who never watched basketball before the 2015 “touchless 3 and no no D” game shift is that in “GOAT” or “top 10” debates where everyone tries to compare the offense of all these players is that guys like MJ played even better on the defensive side. That’s what truly solidifies players on the mount Rushmore. Same should go for high OVR’s. Players shouldn’t be rewarded for not playing 50% of the game. I’m hoping defense gets cultured back into the league and 2K prioritizing it for OVR’s would go a long way.
    AIRJ23

    And lol are you bringing up KD’s FIBA performance as a positive? He led his team to one of the worst Team USA performances and records in history. First ever back to back losses. First losses to certain countries. I can GUARANTEE Giannis would lead his TEAM to a better record as he actually has built teams as a leader (not ring buying jumping around) and is way more accustomed to the more physical (and far superior) FIBA rules.

    That's not what happened last time he played in FIBA rules with Greece NT... Stop overrating a player with so clear deficiencies and who, without NBA cheap superstar calls and rules, he would never be "that good"... and besides, he needed several failures until he put everything together this year thanks to the super team the Bucks built (they even won semis without Giannis)... put current KD in that team and it would have been a no-contest this year... LOL
    Guard-ian
    That's not what happened last time he played in FIBA rules with Greece NT... Stop overrating a player with so clear deficiencies and who, without NBA cheap superstar calls and rules, he would never be "that good"... and besides, he needed several failures until he put everything together this year thanks to the super team the Bucks built (they even won semis without Giannis)... put current KD in that team and it would have been a no-contest this year... LOL

    LOL OK YOU TROLLIN NOW. Even you know that was a bad comedy skit.
    KD would win on the current Bucks?? LMAO the dude who travels to the best record teams to snatch rings? The dude who’s never built one team from scratch? The dude who’s never won a ring without 4 other active all stars?
    What year did Giannis play with those FIBA rules you mention? When he was 21? Lol. Yeah like he’s the same player as back then.
    And now failing before you succeed is a bad thing? Wow. Don’t go reading biographies of the most successful people in the world now. They might get “ruined” by how often they had to fail in order to learn, adapt and prove their true worth by sticking to something, trying over and over again.
    I’m sure if Giannis can’t win more rings with the Bucks he can just do what everyone else does now and what KD popularized, which is just jump on whatever team has the best record and already made the finals. Until then I’ll enjoy him being the one of the only modern players who did it the real way, with heart, building and curating a team from scratch. The “ancient” way. Middleton was what, a second round pick? Lol. Giannis dedicated himself and built the dude. Giannis is the anti KD and in many ways anti modern NBA in how he operates. And for that alone he deserves respect.
    Guard-ian
    No trolling @AIRJ23... everyone is entitled to his opinion and you are disrespecting KD even at a higher level than what I am doing it to Giannis... But you know what, I will always choose the one which at least know how to shoot the ball...
    For a change I agree with this guy this time... LOL
    http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=32055543

    “Best player in the world” exited out of the second round with an air ball and led Team USA to their worst performance in 18 years. How many checks KD cutting from his shell business accounts lol.
    Gimme a break. KD is not even average at defense. He’s BELOW average. And the average for players right now is embarrassing. He’s never made an all defensive team once. Giannis is a DPOY. Defense is 50% of the game although 2K culture would never know it.
    The only thing KD can do better than Giannis is shoot. Literally the only thing. What can Giannis do better?
    Post up, dunk, block, steal, on ball D, off ball D, playmake, rebound, I’m sure I’m leaving stuff out. Let’s call dribble and passing a wash. Giannis is also better conditioned, faster, stronger.
    If KD is the “best player in the world” that simply means the bar is low. Nothing he’s done in the past couple years he’s played justifies that. Not stats, not clutch performances, not wins, not winning with a team on his back, not his abysmal (for Team USA) Olympic record with 3 losses.
    scottyp180
    That actually looks pretty great. Might be the best screen I've seen yet.
    The game looks great. My only issue with player models is I feel they need to be scaled down just a touch. The model size and scale on the PS4 is perfect to me. On the PS5 I feel they are a tad bigger or something.
    Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app
    Guard-ian
    If Kawhi were that good on defense as 2k ratings suggest, he would have taken Luka all that series instead of been most of the time in the weak side, and that's what people in 2k does unrealistically because ratings allow that...

    As I said:
    There is very little Iso/Post play nowadays beyond a small handful of elites. Being a "Lockdown" defender barely matters nowadays due to all the switching.

    It's not the ratings/badges that are the problem. It's that 2K is schematically still in 1995. The mechanics & AI fixate on 1v1 battles, rather than ball movement.
    Much of 2K's offense is built heavily around dribble moves, jab steps, etc to create separation (advantage for the offensive player to attack). Beyond a very small handful of elites (Harden, Luka, etc) that isn't how offense are operating nowadays. The game is tuned for the MyCareer experience and as a video game, not to be an IRL replication of the NBA.
    If CP3 were that good on defense as 2k ratings suggest, he wouldn't have been obliterated by Jrue in the Finals... etc. etc. etc....

    I know this is a lot to take in but there is a lot more to NBA defense than how much your man scores. You're looking solely at the end result, not the process.
    AIRJ23
    “Best player in the world” exited out of the second round with an air ball and led Team USA to their worst performance in 18 years. How many checks KD cutting from his shell business accounts lol.
    Gimme a break. KD is not even average at defense. He’s BELOW average. And the average for players right now is embarrassing. He’s never made an all defensive team once. Giannis is a DPOY. Defense is 50% of the game although 2K culture would never know it.
    The only thing KD can do better than Giannis is shoot. Literally the only thing. What can Giannis do better?
    Post up, dunk, block, steal, on ball D, off ball D, playmake, rebound, I’m sure I’m leaving stuff out. Let’s call dribble and passing a wash. Giannis is also better conditioned, faster, stronger.
    If KD is the “best player in the world” that simply means the bar is low. Nothing he’s done in the past couple years he’s played justifies that. Not stats, not clutch performances, not wins, not winning with a team on his back, not his abysmal (for Team USA) Olympic record with 3 losses.

    Dude this is one of the most ignorant takes ive read in a while, its funny how you typed this with a straight face lmao
    leoribas3
    Dude this is one of the most ignorant takes ive read in a while, its funny how you typed this with a straight face lmao

    I love when people make sweeping statements without backing it up with any refutes to the points.
    Go ahead and pinpoint where I’m wrong without blind KD fanboying. Don’t worry I doubt he’s got a burner acct here.
    Name one thing KD does better than Giannis other than shoot.
    Tell me how 3 losses in the Olympics which is the worst showing in nearly 20 years is “best player in the world status.”
    Tell me what teams he built or what teams he won rings with that weren’t already the best teams in the league/championship teams that he jumped into to snatch rings or didn’t have 3-4 other all stars.
    Tell me how many all defensive teams or defensive accolades “best player in the world” has at 32 years old.
    Tell me he didn’t exit out the second round by air balling what would’ve been a game winner.
    Tell me Giannis didn’t put up better performances in the finals where he won or other players who lost didn’t put up the same “all on my back” high usage performances like his (Dame, Luka, Booker, etc.).
    Tell me his PPG in his last three or four healthy seasons weren’t 25-26ish PPG.
    “Best player in the world” needs a more flawless record than that. Potential is separate from results. Dudes career path is to do the least possible to get a crown or credit.
    If that’s there best player in the world the bar is hella low currently.
    AIRJ23
    I love when people make sweeping statements without backing it up with any refutes to the points.
    Go ahead and pinpoint where I’m wrong without blind KD fanboying. Don’t worry I doubt he’s got a burner acct here.
    Name one thing KD does better than Giannis other than shoot.
    Tell me how 3 losses in the Olympics which is the worst showing in nearly 20 years is “best player in the world status.”
    Tell me what teams he built or what teams he won rings with that weren’t already the best teams in the league/championship teams that he jumped into to snatch rings or didn’t have 3-4 other all stars.
    Tell me how many all defensive teams or defensive accolades “best player in the world” has at 32 years old.
    Tell me he didn’t exit out the second round by air balling what would’ve been a game winner.
    Tell me Giannis didn’t put up better performances in the finals where he won or other players who lost didn’t put up the same “all on my back” high usage performances like his (Dame, Luka, Booker, etc.).
    Tell me his PPG in his last three or four healthy seasons weren’t 25-26ish PPG.
    “Best player in the world” needs a more flawless record than that. Potential is separate from results. Dudes career path is to do the least possible to get a crown or credit.
    If that’s there best player in the world the bar is hella low currently.

    Nobody is putting a guy who can’t shoot over a guy who’s lethal from anywhere on the floor.
    Giannis and several other current and former NBA players called KD the best player on the planet..why should we care what you say?
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    AIRJ23
    I love when people make sweeping statements without backing it up with any refutes to the points.
    Go ahead and pinpoint where I’m wrong without blind KD fanboying. Don’t worry I doubt he’s got a burner acct here.
    Name one thing KD does better than Giannis other than shoot.
    Tell me how 3 losses in the Olympics which is the worst showing in nearly 20 years is “best player in the world status.”
    Tell me what teams he built or what teams he won rings with that weren’t already the best teams in the league/championship teams that he jumped into to snatch rings or didn’t have 3-4 other all stars.
    Tell me how many all defensive teams or defensive accolades “best player in the world” has at 32 years old.
    Tell me he didn’t exit out the second round by air balling what would’ve been a game winner.
    Tell me Giannis didn’t put up better performances in the finals where he won or other players who lost didn’t put up the same “all on my back” high usage performances like his (Dame, Luka, Booker, etc.).
    Tell me his PPG in his last three or four healthy seasons weren’t 25-26ish PPG.
    “Best player in the world” needs a more flawless record than that. Potential is separate from results. Dudes career path is to do the least possible to get a crown or credit.
    If that’s there best player in the world the bar is hella low currently.

    I want to preface this by saying that almost everything being argued here has basically nothing at all to do with 2k ratings. Also that I don’t necessarily disagree with Giannis being labeled the best “all around” player currently in the NBA either. I’m not here to make an argument for KD over him. That said I’m making a response to some of this simply because I feel like it’s so badly missing context that some of it needs to have a rebuttal.
    Name one thing KD does better than Giannis other than shoot.

    This is an extremely over simplistic breakdown both in real life and in terms of 2K. Shooting on paper vs shooting in basketball is not a 1:1 comparison. The more you can shoot the less defense can take from you. The easier it is to pair around other star level teammates, the more off ball gravity you create within an offense, etc. That’s like saying the only thing MJ had over other elite slashers was his midrange shooting. But his midrange game was so efficient that he was the best scorer ever, and most importantly made the triangle work to perfection. Steph Curry literally had the most efficient scoring season is league history and all he can do better than most all time greats is “just shoot”.
    That level of shooting has a natural ability to make things easier for players around him. Giannis does that, but it’s mostly in terms of drawing help on drives, or drawing doubles inside. KD’s “shooting” is going to create scoring opportunities for those around him without him even touching the ball. Just simply being on the floor and guys being reluctant to help away from him makes dangerous by simply standing. He’s lethal enough on drives and midrange plays to also draw help, draw doubles, he scores from all 3 levels and doesn’t miss free throws.
    Giannis is an amazing offensive threat in his own right. Not sure there has been a more polarizing “force” since Shaq. But defenses can take more from him than they can KD. To the point that talking heads are literally calling him a dumb player for taking wide open jumpers. Giannis did better as this years playoffs moved on, he made better decisions, kept his game geared towards the rim, converted his free throws, and Middleton and Jrue stepped their games up as well.. but at one point in time we were a Kevin Durant 1/2 shoe size away from the Bucks going home to a short-handed Nets team fresh off of multiple Giannis air balled clutch free throws and the NBA media questioning his offensive IQ.. A narrative he finally squashed in the finals, but has been hanging over him for the past 3 years because he’s simply easier for teams to game plan against come playoff time than his counterparts KD and Bron have been.
    Tell me how 3 losses in the Olympics which is the worst showing in nearly 20 years is “best player in the world status.”
    To be fair comparing Olympic play now to years past isn’t even a fair argument. The World is catching up and will continue to do so as we move forward. Comparing this years Olympics to Olympics 20 years from now will be different as well. That’s just progression. Also this year in particular was different even from recent years. Some players who joined were literally still playing in the playoffs when scrimmages started. This was the shortest amount of time we’ve ever had to prepare, we basically sent our C team over, and this was a fresh group of guys who have never played together. Had team USA had Bron, Kawhi, Steph, Harden, AD, would you really expect those losses? KD still likely leads that team in scoring and your point is squashed.
    That said those losses don’t even matter. We won the games we needed to win, we took home gold, KD was dominant in the gold game, and he was MVP of the Olympics. This argument holds no weight, it would be like me saying Bron beating the Warriors wasn’t impressive because he first went down 1-3 before he won. It’s just silly. If I’m not mistake he’s our all team leading scorer in PPG in gold medal games, has the top 3 scoring seasons from a US player in 3 Olympic runs now, and I think is our all time leader in Olympic PPG.
    Tell me what teams he built or what teams he won rings with that weren’t already the best teams in the league/championship teams that he jumped into to snatch rings or didn’t have 3-4 other all stars.
    This is true, KD’s level of how “easy” his championships are will forever be a question mark when comparing him to other all time greats and their accomplishments. Him joining a team that beat him, won 73 games without him, and a championship without him is literally incomparable to any other player we’ve seen who’s of his caliber. Would have been like Bron joining the Boston big 3 after they knocked Cleveland out of the playoffs back in the day.
    That said it doesn’t really make him a “worse” basketball player. We can all argue back and forth over how we value his ring vs say Dirk’s ring, but that doesn’t take away from KD and his abilities. It doesn’t make him a lesser 2K overall for damn sure because none of that changes attributes. It’s just a pointless thing to bring up within the context of this discussion.
    There is also something to be said about his play style being able to coexist on teams like that. He’s an incredibly portable player, goes back to the shooting argument, just talent on paper doesn’t always work. We see it all the time with the “fit” arguments. KD fits next to anything.
    Tell me how many all defensive teams or defensive accolades “best player in the world” has at 32 years old.
    KD will never been mistaken for an elite defender like Giannis. But he’s a solid defender who has really learned to use his length. He was pretty damn impressive after moving to a team like GS who was already a solid defensive team. The Nets don’t currently have the pieces for him to stand out as a good defender like that, they aren’t going to collectively be a great defensive team. He is by no means a “bad” defender, but he’s not going to be making all defensive teams like Giannis for sure. Giannis is the best 2-way threat in the league.
    Tell me he didn’t exit out the second round by air balling what would’ve been a game winner.

    Was a very tough shot that almost anybody wouldn’t have converted. No players ability should boil down to one shot make or miss, one moment good or bad, on game win or lose, etc. it’s a grasping for straws argument. KD was about half an inch from also hitting one of the greatest shots in playoff history and not even allowing us to be talking about how great Giannis was closing out the Suns. That’s just basketball. How many times have other great players hoisted up a difficult game winning attempt and missed? The type of shots he was hitting just to tie that game was stuff we’ve really only seen on a consistent level from guys like MJ and Bron in the postseason.
    Tell me his PPG in his last three or four healthy seasons weren’t 25-26ish PPG.

    Again though this is while he’s also allowing Steph and Klay to still eat, Kyrie and Harden to still eat. What are his numbers when those guys miss games? What are those numbers in the playoffs when he’s playing closer to 40 minutes? This is just a lack of context. Would you rather be able to say “he scores 25 not 30 a night” or “he scores 25 instead of 30 and that play-style also allows Harden and Kyrie to still get their 25” because I can tell you what side of that every NBA coach, scout, and GM would answer.
    KD now has 9 seasons (most all time) of scoring at least 25 points per 75possessions while shooting 60+% TS%. For comparison LeBron trails him at 7, Jordan at 4, change that to playoffs and he’s 2nd all time with 5 (LeBron has 6), MJ has 1, Giannis has yet to score that efficiently in a playoff run. Nobody cares if KD averages 25 a game if he’s upping that to 34 in the playoffs on +6 over league average shooting efficiency. It just doesn’t matter, we all know how easily this man could put up points if that was his M.O.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ForeverVersatile
    Nobody is putting a guy who can’t shoot over a guy who’s lethal from anywhere on the floor.

    That's scoring versatility, not scoring ability. Jordan is a better scorer than Carmelo despite Melo being able to score from more spots.
    ForeverVersatile
    Giannis and several other current and former NBA players called KD the best player on the planet..why should we care what you say?

    That's an ad hominem, not an actual argument. That's refusing to acknowledge someone's points and just dismissing them because of who they are as a person, and that's not good debating.
    I'm not picking sides, just throwing this out there.
    "The game is tuned for the MyCareer experience and as a video game, not to be an IRL replication of the NBA."
    I might not disagree with that myself but 2K would be very unhappy about that message. I think in some ways, it almost has to try and be somewhat like real life. In my opinion at least, it has to be that way or next gen console gaming wouldn't be here today.
    The Olympics thing is comical to me because 20 years ago the best 20 players in the world were all American and that isn't remotely close to being true in the present day.
    Three of the top six in MVP voting this year were non-American. People wanna bring these Stephen A Smith talking points to a basketball discussion without getting laughed at. This ain't ESPN and you're not making 10 million to "generate buzz".
    zten11
    "The game is tuned for the MyCareer experience and as a video game, not to be an IRL replication of the NBA."
    I might not disagree with that myself but 2K would be very unhappy about that message. I think in some ways, it almost has to try and be somewhat like real life. In my opinion at least, it has to be that way or next gen console gaming wouldn't be here today.

    They are as true to life as they can be within the constraints they've built in. Their mission is to be a playable / fun video game first and foremost. If realism removes the fun then they have failed at their job.
    VictorMG
    That's scoring versatility, not scoring ability. Jordan is a better scorer than Carmelo despite Melo being able to score from more spots.

    There is a wide gap between Shaq/Giannis and Melo/Jordan.
    ForeverVersatile
    Nobody is putting a guy who can’t shoot over a guy who’s lethal from anywhere on the floor.
    Giannis and several other current and former NBA players called KD the best player on the planet..why should we care what you say?
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    And Scottie Pippen just said KD’s style of play would be neutered in a league or era with defensive oriented rules that allow defenders to body up and physically harass him. When people make claims like “one of the best scorers ever” and he plays in an era where he can go an entire game without being touched, or where space creating is handed on a platter with all the wide open shots and lanes, when the paint is always empty since bigs are posted at the perimeter thanks to the stupid 3 second rule that was applied so anyone can score so the NBA can say they’re still creating superstars, and he still isn’t putting up monumental averages, I just think he’s being overrated. Especially when to explain his strengths takes a textbook of excuses, cherry picked advanced metrics, etc. KD in a touchless league is already fragile. I don’t think he could survive a physical game. I seriously don’t. I think KD needs an era like this to be as effective as he has been. I can’t say the same for Giannis or even Lebron for that matter, despite his ridiculous flops and whinings. But I think he can handle abuse and getting thrown around if he was playing in that kind of era. I don’t think KD could.
    Point is, everyone has opinions. KD is so soft mentally where he attacks anyone who doesn’t praise him that he’s cultures contemporaries to kiss his backside.
    For the record YES I think KD would be elite in any eras due to his huge gifts. I mean he’s a 6’10 sharpshooter. But I think he’d suffer in previous eras more than some of his contemporaries.
    ojandpizza
    I want to preface this by saying that almost everything being argued here has basically nothing at all to do with 2k ratings. Also that I don’t necessarily disagree with Giannis being labeled the best “all around” player currently in the NBA either. I’m not here to make an argument for KD over him. That said I’m making a response to some of this simply because I feel like it’s so badly missing context that some of it needs to have a rebuttal.
    This is an extremely over simplistic breakdown both in real life and in terms of 2K. Shooting on paper vs shooting in basketball is not a 1:1 comparison. The more you can shoot the less defense can take from you. The easier it is to pair around other star level teammates, the more off ball gravity you create within an offense, etc. That’s like saying the only thing MJ had over other elite slashers was his midrange shooting. But his midrange game was so efficient that he was the best scorer ever, and most importantly made the triangle work to perfection. Steph Curry literally had the most efficient scoring season is league history and all he can do better than most all time greats is “just shoot”.
    That level of shooting has a natural ability to make things easier for players around him. Giannis does that, but it’s mostly in terms of drawing help on drives, or drawing doubles inside. KD’s “shooting” is going to create scoring opportunities for those around him without him even touching the ball. Just simply being on the floor and guys being reluctant to help away from him makes dangerous by simply standing. He’s lethal enough on drives and midrange plays to also draw help, draw doubles, he scores from all 3 levels and doesn’t miss free throws.
    Giannis is an amazing offensive threat in his own right. Not sure there has been a more polarizing “force” since Shaq. But defenses can take more from him than they can KD. To the point that talking heads are literally calling him a dumb player for taking wide open jumpers. Giannis did better as this years playoffs moved on, he made better decisions, kept his game geared towards the rim, converted his free throws, and Middleton and Jrue stepped their games up as well.. but at one point in time we were a Kevin Durant 1/2 shoe size away from the Bucks going home to a short-handed Nets team fresh off of multiple Giannis air balled clutch free throws and the NBA media questioning his offensive IQ.. A narrative he finally squashed in the finals, but has been hanging over him for the past 3 years because he’s simply easier for teams to game plan against come playoff time than his counterparts KD and Bron have been.
    To be fair comparing Olympic play now to years past isn’t even a fair argument. The World is catching up and will continue to do so as we move forward. Comparing this years Olympics to Olympics 20 years from now will be different as well. That’s just progression. Also this year in particular was different even from recent years. Some players who joined were literally still playing in the playoffs when scrimmages started. This was the shortest amount of time we’ve ever had to prepare, we basically sent our C team over, and this was a fresh group of guys who have never played together. Had team USA had Bron, Kawhi, Steph, Harden, AD, would you really expect those losses? KD still likely leads that team in scoring and your point is squashed.
    That said those losses don’t even matter. We won the games we needed to win, we took home gold, KD was dominant in the gold game, and he was MVP of the Olympics. This argument holds no weight, it would be like me saying Bron beating the Warriors wasn’t impressive because he first went down 1-3 before he won. It’s just silly. If I’m not mistake he’s our all team leading scorer in PPG in gold medal games, has the top 3 scoring seasons from a US player in 3 Olympic runs now, and I think is our all time leader in Olympic PPG.
    This is true, KD’s level of how “easy” his championships are will forever be a question mark when comparing him to other all time greats and their accomplishments. Him joining a team that beat him, won 73 games without him, and a championship without him is literally incomparable to any other player we’ve seen who’s of his caliber. Would have been like Bron joining the Boston big 3 after they knocked Cleveland out of the playoffs back in the day.
    That said it doesn’t really make him a “worse” basketball player. We can all argue back and forth over how we value his ring vs say Dirk’s ring, but that doesn’t take away from KD and his abilities. It doesn’t make him a lesser 2K overall for damn sure because none of that changes attributes. It’s just a pointless thing to bring up within the context of this discussion.
    There is also something to be said about his play style being able to coexist on teams like that. He’s an incredibly portable player, goes back to the shooting argument, just talent on paper doesn’t always work. We see it all the time with the “fit” arguments. KD fits next to anything.
    KD will never been mistaken for an elite defender like Giannis. But he’s a solid defender who has really learned to use his length. He was pretty damn impressive after moving to a team like GS who was already a solid defensive team. The Nets don’t currently have the pieces for him to stand out as a good defender like that, they aren’t going to collectively be a great defensive team. He is by no means a “bad” defender, but he’s not going to be making all defensive teams like Giannis for sure. Giannis is the best 2-way threat in the league.
    Was a very tough shot that almost anybody wouldn’t have converted. No players ability should boil down to one shot make or miss, one moment good or bad, on game win or lose, etc. it’s a grasping for straws argument. KD was about half an inch from also hitting one of the greatest shots in playoff history and not even allowing us to be talking about how great Giannis was closing out the Suns. That’s just basketball. How many times have other great players hoisted up a difficult game winning attempt and missed? The type of shots he was hitting just to tie that game was stuff we’ve really only seen on a consistent level from guys like MJ and Bron in the postseason.
    Again though this is while he’s also allowing Steph and Klay to still eat, Kyrie and Harden to still eat. What are his numbers when those guys miss games? What are those numbers in the playoffs when he’s playing closer to 40 minutes? This is just a lack of context. Would you rather be able to say “he scores 25 not 30 a night” or “he scores 25 instead of 30 and that play-style also allows Harden and Kyrie to still get their 25” because I can tell you what side of that every NBA coach, scout, and GM would answer.
    KD now has 9 seasons (most all time) of scoring at least 25 points per 75possessions while shooting 60+% TS%. For comparison LeBron trails him at 7, Jordan at 4, change that to playoffs and he’s 2nd all time with 5 (LeBron has 6), MJ has 1, Giannis has yet to score that efficiently in a playoff run. Nobody cares if KD averages 25 a game if he’s upping that to 34 in the playoffs on +6 over league average shooting efficiency. It just doesn’t matter, we all know how easily this man could put up points if that was his M.O.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    I respect that and there are several good points. But remember that I’m judging him based on him being “the best player on the planet” where barely winning gold after having some of the worst losses, or only winning rings on teams with 5 all stars simply doesn’t suffice earning that crown. You need a pretty perfect record to earn that, unless the competition simply isn’t that stiff.
    As for his missed shot, I mean it was his choice to put the team in his back and play every minute, and take that shot. When I saw him take it, to me it looked like hubris. You can call bad IQ. I think a real “greatest on the planet” would maybe realize everyone assumes he’ll take the shot, and he already made a few big ones, so kick it out. Like MJ did to Pax, Kerr, etc. KD just isn’t that dude.
    And I just don’t see that clutch shot as one of the best in playoff history. That’s kind of that over-boosting I’m talking about. It was good, but didn’t Dame hit like 3 or 4 of those in the same playoffs? And I’m not a big Dame fan btw but to me he put up similar performances to KD and did it more times, and was even more heroic, yet oddly everyone bent over backwards to coddle KD’s ego and act like he broke the playoffs only to watch him miss a terrible shot to exit out of the 2nd round.
    And I understand we can look into super advanced metrics, etc. Personally I’m not big on those since when I watch basketball games, those metrics often don’t correlate with what I’m witnessing on a visceral level. Yes they have their place but it’s not always tied to the universal result.
    I agree Giannis’ game is more flawed. Giannis felt like a different player from beginning to end of these playoffs. You can see him shed the green. He also came up much differently than KD and is a lot younger. Giannis has tried to fit into this new era of everyone taking long bombs and I think he finally accepted he isn’t that guy. After some embarrassing misses and lots of criticism. Giannis is a 90’s baller. And I’ve said for a while that once he accepts that, he’ll be unstoppable in today’s league. And that’s what happened. He started playing Shaq ball and it was a joke how dominating he was on both ends. He plays tough, I could see him on the 90’s Knicks. That’s dangerous for the modern league if someone can apply it well. Which is what he did. It was brutal and intense basketball and frankly it was like an alien long lost language compared to how NBA has been played since 2015 turned it a softened up 3 point contest where an aggressive block earns you a flagrant 2.
    Sure, KD isn’t a terrible defender perhaps. But not one even bottom tier all defensive team? That can’t be the “greatest player on the planet” IMO. Only reason no one brings up the fact that defense is crucial to earning that title is because no other modern elite scorers are even remotely good defenders.
    The reason MJ is the GOAT isn’t JUST because he’s arguably the games greatest offensive weapon, but because he’s equally a brutal defensive weapon. DPOY and MVP and scoring title in the same year. No excuses need to be made for that record.
    I’ll say again, watching KD happily say he wants nothing to do with MJ comparisons as he states MJ is 1 of 1 god level and admits he’s still blown away by and learning moves from MJ shows he can be humble every now and then. But importantly it shows that clearly even he understands the scope of what’s needed to be true GOAT level. And if I’m playing armchair psychologist, the reason he’s so mentally fragile is a product of him being frustrated of not filling his unquestionably nearly unparalleled nature given gifts. When you hear MJ talk about basketball, he ONLY talks about mentality. He rarely talk stats, metrics or any of that. The true greats know that achieving true greatness is all mental. A concept lost in today’s league culture. And KD is shattered glass in that department. It’s the same mentality that won’t build a ring like true Mount Rushmore players do, same mentality that thinks it deserves a ring, so jumps on a 73-9 championship team to put it in its resume.
    I mean, yes, the vast advantage of KD’s shot can outweigh several Giannis advantages. But I can say the same about Giannis’s defensive advantage being just as vast. Giannis won the finals with his defense.
    Real2KInsider
    The Olympics thing is comical to me because 20 years ago the best 20 players in the world were all American and that isn't remotely close to being true in the present day.
    Three of the top six in MVP voting this year were non-American. People wanna bring these Stephen A Smith talking points to a basketball discussion without getting laughed at. This ain't ESPN and you're not making 10 million to "generate buzz".

    And 5 years ago team USA won every game. Did the world catch up that much in 5 years or are we just making excuses for the “best player on the planet” whose first showing as a team captain resulted in a relatively lousy record. Nigeria and Australia are that good where the “best player on the planet” and his all-NBA team takes back to back losses? Then opens the Olympics with a loss to France? The best player on the planet just has to do the bare minimum now to earn that accolade? USA basketball winning the gold is as expected as Steph Curry hitting a three pointer in a game. It ain’t impressive if it simply happens, what you’re looking for is a “best of the best” performance. Same concept as jumping on a 73-9 championship team to buy rings. They didn’t need him on the Warriors to win. And if he wins this year it’ll be another cheap ring as he’s on a team with THREE guys with mid to high 90 OVRS. Gimme a break.
    The excuses this dude gets when his career path and record simply aren’t otherworldly.
    VictorMG
    That's scoring versatility, not scoring ability. Jordan is a better scorer than Carmelo despite Melo being able to score from more spots.
    That's an ad hominem, not an actual argument. That's refusing to acknowledge someone's points and just dismissing them because of who they are as a person, and that's not good debating.
    I'm not picking sides, just throwing this out there.

    Until Giannis is a threat from anywhere on the floor, he won’t be the better player point-blank. His length and athleticism are what his abilities are based on. He doesn't have the skill that KD has.
    Giannis is a good shot blocker, but he's not necessarily a lockdown perimeter defender. KD’s length allows him to block shots also; the only difference is he's not as athletic as Giannis, so he doesn't have as many spectacular chase-down blocks and can't be as physical.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    ForeverVersatile
    Until Giannis is a threat from anywhere on the floor, he won’t be the better player point-blank. His length and athleticism are what his abilities are based on. He doesn't have the skill that KD has.

    Are you basically ignoring defense right now? Giannis was the lynchpin of a great defense in 2021 and a historically good one in 2020. Not being a good shooter changes none of that (especially when Giannis scores at Shaq levels of efficiency and volume), nor the fact that KD doesn't come close to matching his impact defensively.
    ForeverVersatile
    Giannis is a good shot blocker, but he's not necessarily a lockdown perimeter defender. KD’s length allows him to block shots also; the only difference is he's not as athletic as Giannis, so he doesn't have as many spectacular chase-down blocks and can't be as physical.

    You're making two mistakes here IMO. The first is that you're equating shot-blocking and perimeter defense, by themselves, with great defense. Great defense is about knowledge-- knowing where to be, how to adjust, making reads, switchability, etc.
    Not being an all-time great shot-blocker or wing defender doesn't mean you can't be an all-time great defender overall. See Kevin Garnett, who peaked at 2.1 blocks per 36 (as low as 1.4 when he won DPOY), compared to Giannis' peak of 1.9.
    The second mistake I think you're making is discounting Giannis' athleticism as if it doesn't count or something. It doesn't matter why someone is effective; unless they're breaking the rules, whatever reason gives someone effectiveness is valid in a discussion of best players.
    Dirk Nowitzki's height gives him a huge advantage as a shooter, but that doesn't make him not arguably the best mid-range shooter of all time.
    Real2KInsider
    There is a wide gap between Shaq/Giannis and Melo/Jordan.

    I was just saying that someone who can't shoot, or is less versatile as a scorer, can be just as good a scorer as (or at least close to) someone who can shoot and/or is more versatile.
    ForeverVersatile
    Until Giannis is a threat from anywhere on the floor

    He's the biggest threat at the rim in the NBA.
    he won’t be the better player point-blank. His length and athleticism are what his abilities are based on. He doesn't have the skill that KD has.

    This is a weird take because KD's length is likewise the predominant reason he's an unstoppable scorer. KD at average height would just be Bradley Beal. Isaiah Thomas a foot taller would be the GOAT. But that isn't the world we live in, players are what they are.
    Finding conditional reasoning to minimize the value of a player who was All-NBA 1st and All-Defense 1st each of last 3 seasons is foolish. MVP the two seasons prior, Finals MVP this year. These are same arguments you'd hear from someone trying to argue Iverson > Shaq.
    Giannis is a good shot blocker, but he's not necessarily a lockdown perimeter defender. KD’s length allows him to block shots also; the only difference is he's not as athletic as Giannis, so he doesn't have as many spectacular chase-down blocks and can't be as physical.

    Maybe Durant (who came into the league w/ historically weak upper body strength) should have spent more time in the gym then. Giannis completely transformed his body over the last decade.

    6'9" 196
    Analyst: "He's got a Kevin Durant body"
    (^You couldn't script this better)
    AIRJ23

    I respect that and there are several good points. But remember that I’m judging him based on him being “the best player on the planet” where barely winning gold after having some of the worst losses, or only winning rings on teams with 5 all stars simply doesn’t suffice earning that crown. You need a pretty perfect record to earn that, unless the competition simply isn’t that stiff.

    No you don’t To be the best at anything in life all you need to do is be better than everyone else. The bumps along the way are just part of the process. And who are you to tell everybody what criteria players do/don’t have to meet in order for us to judge how good we think they are at basketball?
    Jordan was considered the best before he had a ring, multiple first round losses, losing to the same team 3 years in a row, being labeled as a selfish ball hog, etc. LeBron was considered the best before winning a ring. Labeled as a quitter, a guy who had to leave, a horrible showing vs Dallas.. etc.
    If you don’t think KD is the best then so be it, that’s your opinion. I said in my first post I didn’t even disagree with that. But you can’t come on here and just tell everybody else what the criteria has to be and try to tell us that random things like an Olympic loss, or an airball, means he can’t be great .. who do you think you even are the holy highness of Naismith .

    As for his missed shot, I mean it was his choice to put the team in his back and play every minute, and take that shot. When I saw him take it, to me it looked like hubris. You can call bad IQ. I think a real “greatest on the planet” would maybe realize everyone assumes he’ll take the shot, and he already made a few big ones, so kick it out. Like MJ did to Pax, Kerr, etc. KD just isn’t that dude.
    The reason MJ is the GOAT isn’t JUST because he’s arguably the games greatest offensive weapon, but because he’s equally a brutal defensive weapon. DPOY and MVP and scoring title in the same year. No excuses need to be made for that record.
    I’ll say again, watching KD happily say he wants nothing to do with MJ comparisons as he states MJ is 1 of 1 god level and admits he’s still blown away by and learning moves from MJ shows he can be humble every now and then. But importantly it shows that clearly even he understands the scope of what’s needed to be true GOAT level. And if I’m playing armchair psychologist, the reason he’s so mentally fragile is a product of him being frustrated of not filling his unquestionably nearly unparalleled nature given gifts. When you hear MJ talk about basketball, he ONLY talks about mentality. He rarely talk stats, metrics or any of that. The true greats know that achieving true greatness is all mental. A concept lost in today’s league culture. And KD is shattered glass in that department. It’s the same mentality that won’t build a ring like true Mount Rushmore players do, same mentality that thinks it deserves a ring, so jumps on a 73-9 championship team to put it in its resume.
    you really typed this after not 1 single person had called him better than MJ or compared him to MJ. Regardless MJ has tons of missed game tying/go ahead shots in the playoffs as well. Every great player does.
    It’s a little funny that you’re still sticking to this one shot when the guy you’re arguing against on the basis of this whole discussion doesn’t even take those shots for his team, they get the ball to someone else.

    And I just don’t see that clutch shot as one of the best in playoff history. That’s kind of that over-boosting I’m talking about. It was good, but didn’t Dame hit like 3 or 4 of those in the same playoffs? And I’m not a big Dame fan btw but to me he put up similar performances to KD and did it more times, and was even more heroic, yet oddly everyone bent over backwards to coddle KD’s ego and act like he broke the playoffs only to watch him miss a terrible shot to exit out of the 2nd round.

    You spent all that time poking fun at that other dude by labeling him a KD fanboy and all of the sort just for you to waste all this time typing to look like the exact same thing in reverse, a KDhater.
    There isn’t a universe that exists where that shot being a 3 and wining the game wouldn’t be one of the best shots in playoff history. Game 7, against Giannis, in a game where he had 48 points, 15 in the 4th quarter, and he hit the shot before that one as well? You are out of your mind.
    Dame has 2 shots within 1 second or less. Houston like 5 years ago, and OKC. Both also considered two of the best shots in playoff history. How many guys do you think hit walk off game winning shots at the buzzer in the playoffs? It’s rare.
    Who is coddling KD’s ego for calling a great shot a great shot? Like why are you so triggered by KD to even say this stuff?

    And I understand we can look into super advanced metrics, etc. Personally I’m not big on those since when I watch basketball games, those metrics often don’t correlate with what I’m witnessing on a visceral level. Yes they have their place but it’s not always tied to the universal result.
    I didn’t post any super advanced metrics. I posted his scoring efficiency because it’s vastly more accurate than “tell me he didn’t average 25 ppg”.
    Again when “I watch basketball games”. What about when everyone else watches? Is this like your first point in the post, where only your eyes matter. What if those stats do line up with what me or anybody else watches?
    So not only do you decide the criteria in which we determine greatness but you also get to tell us if what we see is correct or not and if stats we use even matter because your eyes know more than them?
    This is a joke.
    And 5 years ago team USA won every game. Did the world catch up that much in 5 years or are we just making excuses for the “best player on the planet” whose first showing as a team captain resulted in a relatively lousy record. Nigeria and Australia are that good where the “best player on the planet” and his all-NBA team takes back to back losses? Then opens the Olympics with a loss to France? The best player on the planet just has to do the bare minimum now to earn that accolade? USA basketball winning the gold is as expected as Steph Curry hitting a three pointer in a game. It ain’t impressive if it simply happens, what you’re looking for is a “best of the best” performance. Same concept as jumping on a 73-9 championship team to buy rings. They didn’t need him on the Warriors to win. And if he wins this year it’ll be another cheap ring as he’s on a team with THREE guys with mid to high 90 OVRS. Gimme a break.

    What does any of this matter if they won gold? What if I said Giannis winning the championship doesn’t matter because he lost games before that, set a career record for air-balled free throws in a single postseason run, got subbed out late in some games to not get fouled, watched Middleton take all the clutch shots, only beat the Nets because they were injured, only beat the Suns because both Book and CP3 were injured, etc.. it’s silly to say something like that right? Just as silly as you saying a bunch of stuff that doesn’t matter. Why should anybody care if he lost a game that didn’t matter if he won gold, won Olympics MVP, led the gold game in scoring, etc? If you’re going to keep saying it over and over and over and over, at least explain how it’s relevant? Slovenia lost to France. So by your logic we can’t call Luka greater than Fournier.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ForeverVersatile
    Until Giannis is a threat from anywhere on the floor, he won’t be the better player point-blank. His length and athleticism are what his abilities are based on. He doesn't have the skill that KD has.
    Giannis is a good shot blocker, but he's not necessarily a lockdown perimeter defender. KD’s length allows him to block shots also; the only difference is he's not as athletic as Giannis, so he doesn't have as many spectacular chase-down blocks and can't be as physical.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    This is hilarious. So basketball has been minimized to whoever has a better jumpshot is a better player? Modern NBA problems in a nutshell right there.
    Never mind the fact that Giannis is in another realm defensively and is a DPOY vs a guy who’s never made an all defensive team despite his name recognition. Or that Giannis physique is so far ahead of KD that the length at which he’s a threat in that regard or at the basket possibly outweighs KD’s shooting advantage. KD has two elite metrics going for him: He’s tall, and he can shoot. Hand and hand that makes him a unique threat. But the height is nature given and the shooting is nearly a dime a dozen in the NBA. Otherwise KD isn’t anything to write home about in other elements of the game.
    Giannis used to have closer to KD’s noodle physique, but Giannis transformed himself. KD could have too with the same dedication.
    ojandpizza
    No you don’t To be the best at anything in life all you need to do is be better than everyone else. The bumps along the way are just part of the process. And who are you to tell everybody what criteria players do/don’t have to meet in order for us to judge how good we think they are at basketball?
    Jordan was considered the best before he had a ring, multiple first round losses, losing to the same team 3 years in a row, being labeled as a selfish ball hog, etc. LeBron was considered the best before winning a ring. Labeled as a quitter, a guy who had to leave, a horrible showing vs Dallas.. etc.
    If you don’t think KD is the best then so be it, that’s your opinion. I said in my first post I didn’t even disagree with that. But you can’t come on here and just tell everybody else what the criteria has to be and try to tell us that random things like an Olympic loss, or an airball, means he can’t be great .. who do you think you even are the holy highness of Naismith .
    you really typed this after not 1 single person had called him better than MJ or compared him to MJ. Regardless MJ has tons of missed game tying/go ahead shots in the playoffs as well. Every great player does.
    It’s a little funny that you’re still sticking to this one shot when the guy you’re arguing against on the basis of this whole discussion doesn’t even take those shots for his team, they get the ball to someone else.
    You spent all that time poking fun at that other dude by labeling him a KD fanboy and all of the sort just for you to waste all this time typing to look like the exact same thing in reverse, a KDhater.
    There isn’t a universe that exists where that shot being a 3 and wining the game wouldn’t be one of the best shots in playoff history. Game 7, against Giannis, in a game where he had 48 points, 15 in the 4th quarter, and he hit the shot before that one as well? You are out of your mind.
    Dame has 2 shots within 1 second or less. Houston like 5 years ago, and OKC. Both also considered two of the best shots in playoff history. How many guys do you think hit walk off game winning shots at the buzzer in the playoffs? It’s rare.
    Who is coddling KD’s ego for calling a great shot a great shot? Like why are you so triggered by KD to even say this stuff?
    I didn’t post any super advanced metrics. I posted his scoring efficiency because it’s vastly more accurate than “tell me he didn’t average 25 ppg”.
    Again when “I watch basketball games”. What about when everyone else watches? Is this like your first point in the post, where only your eyes matter. What if those stats do line up with what me or anybody else watches?
    So not only do you decide the criteria in which we determine greatness but you also get to tell us if what we see is correct or not and if stats we use even matter because your eyes know more than them?
    This is a joke.
    What does any of this matter if they won gold? What if I said Giannis winning the championship doesn’t matter because he lost games before that, set a career record for air-balled free throws in a single postseason run, got subbed out late in some games to not get fouled, watched Middleton take all the clutch shots, only beat the Nets because they were injured, only beat the Suns because both Book and CP3 were injured, etc.. it’s silly to say something like that right? Just as silly as you saying a bunch of stuff that doesn’t matter. Why should anybody care if he lost a game that didn’t matter if he won gold, won Olympics MVP, led the gold game in scoring, etc? If you’re going to keep saying it over and over and over and over, at least explain how it’s relevant? Slovenia lost to France. So by your logic we can’t call Luka greater than Fournier.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Ok and there’s my point. He’s not better than everyone else at anything right now. If the best player in the world right now loses back to back games and then the season opener in the Olympics, and gets excused for having that title simply because he “won gold” which is basically handed to America in basketball, that means he’s doing the bare minimum if you ask me, to achieve that title.
    Just like everyone’s acting like a 48 point game in a series loss is earth shattering when handfuls of players put up the same performance. Giannis dropped 50 to WIN the ring, FFS. Dame had like back to back 50 point games. Lots of dudes put teams on their backs and kept shooting yet lost. Giannis somehow did it while still keeping teammates involved and took a W.
    I’m not the biggest LeBron fan but you can’t tell me he would’ve let USA basketball lose to Nigeria and Australia in a row and then France right after. KD isn’t a true leader. Hasn’t proven that he is yet. Not in his rings where he jumped on 73-9 championship teams, nor doing the bare minimum to win gold. And that’s my point, always doing the bare minimum to earn accolades. That ain’t “the best player in the world” to me.
    Just look at the dude talk. He has the exact opposite of a warrior mentality, opposite of a true winning mindset. If he lets random people on the internet get to him, imagine how much his psychological frailty affects his game and career path.
    Again, unless he’s considered “best in the world” because the competition just ain’t that stiff. And being a defensive relic, I don’t really think it is since everyone we keep talking about (other than Giannis) who are competing for “best player in the world” keep getting followed up with “I know he doesn’t play defense, but….”
    You can call me a KD *****. But fact is I wouldn’t be doing all this if people were like “he’s a great player, one of the best in the league, etc..” It’s where “greatest player in the world” keeps being parroted like it’s a phrase download that I have to LMAO for the reasons listed above.
    But hey, that’s just me.
    Why is the world “hate r” blocked out btw? Lol.
    AIRJ23
    This is hilarious. So basketball has been minimized to whoever has a better jumpshot is a better player? Modern NBA problems in a nutshell right there.
    Never mind the fact that Giannis is in another realm defensively and is a DPOY vs a guy who’s never made an all defensive team despite his name recognition. Or that Giannis physique is so far ahead of KD that the length at which he’s a threat in that regard or at the basket possibly outweighs KD’s shooting advantage. KD has two elite metrics going for him: He’s tall, and he can shoot. Hand and hand that makes him a unique threat. But the height is nature given and the shooting is nearly a dime a dozen in the NBA. Otherwise KD isn’t anything to write home about in other elements of the game.
    Giannis used to have closer to KD’s noodle physique, but Giannis transformed himself. KD could have too with the same dedication.
    Ok and there’s my point. He’s not better than everyone else at anything right now. If the best player in the world right now loses back to back games and then the season opener in the Olympics, and gets excused for having that title simply because he “won gold” which is basically handed to America in basketball, that means he’s doing the bare minimum if you ask me, to achieve that title.
    Just like everyone’s acting like a 48 point game in a series loss is earth shattering when handfuls of players put up the same performance. Giannis dropped 50 to WIN the ring, FFS. Dame had like back to back 50 point games. Lots of dudes put teams on their backs and kept shooting yet lost. Giannis somehow did it while still keeping teammates involved and took a W.
    I’m not the biggest LeBron fan but you can’t tell me he would’ve let USA basketball lose to Nigeria and Australia in a row and then France right after. KD isn’t a true leader. Hasn’t proven that he is yet. Not in his rings where he jumped on 73-9 championship teams, nor doing the bare minimum to win gold. And that’s my point, always doing the bare minimum to earn accolades. That ain’t “the best player in the world” to me.
    Just look at the dude talk. He has the exact opposite of a warrior mentality, opposite of a true winning mindset. If he lets random people on the internet get to him, imagine how much his psychological frailty affects his game and career path.
    Again, unless he’s considered “best in the world” because the competition just ain’t that stiff. And being a defensive relic, I don’t really think it is since everyone we keep talking about (other than Giannis) who are competing for “best player in the world” keep getting followed up with “I know he doesn’t play defense, but….”
    You can call me a KD *****. But fact is I wouldn’t be doing all this if people were like “he’s a great player, one of the best in the league, etc..” It’s where “greatest player in the world” keeps being parroted like it’s a phrase download that I have to LMAO for the reasons listed above.
    But hey, that’s just me.
    Why is the world “hate r” blocked out btw? Lol.

    Give Giannis KD’s body and he basically the worst player in the league. Without his athleticism he’s not a great player.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    Another issue with modern NBA culture is the notion that “skillset” matters above all. It takes out so many intangibles and most importantly the one metric that *actually* separates the greats from the would-be’s, and that’s mindset. It’s the NBA, skillset is always prevalent. You listen to anyone who’s ever done anything great talking about achieving said greatness and you’ll find that their sole focus is on mindset. Would anyone call Tom Brady the most skilled QB in the league?
    And “skillset” is subjective in many regards. What makes KD more “skilled” than Giannis? That he can shoot? Got it. So basketball is merely a shooting contest.
    There are so many skills in basketball that have achieved the highest end results. For example, Dennis Rodman isn’t a skilled basketball player in the traditional sense. But the skills he does have are so specific and elite they become invaluable to a team. If I was trying to put together a winning team, I’d choose Rodman over KD. I can find shooters, I can’t find what Rodman brings to the table to easily.
    KD positions himself as a leader. But he hasn’t proven that he can lead at a “Mount Rushmore level.” He wasn’t the leader on the Warriors. What he did is akin to Karl Malone jumping on the 72-10 Bulls to snatch a ring. It sounds ridiculous in that context but it’s exactly what KD did.
    How can the “best player in the world” not be a proven leader.
    That’s why I think he gets fluffed up. He even made a mention about sometimes people giving him too much credit. I think it’s clear many do to coddle a fragile mentality.
    Your opinion of his mindset > NBA coaches, GMs, players, his stats, his accolades, his abilities, his intangibles, whatever else I’m missing.
    Got it.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    So not even a bronze mindset badge for him then? We should submit that to 2K to see which attributes that will lower.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ojandpizza
    Your opinion of his mindset > NBA coaches, GMs, players, his stats, his accolades, his abilities, his intangibles, whatever else I’m missing.
    Got it.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Yeah you know what they say, the sign of a true elite mindset is creating burner accounts to respond to twitter criticisms. Or one that travels to the most winning record teams in history to get a ring. Then leaves that team because something offended him which he now places blame on anyone but himself.
    A true mindset soldier.
    Dude is 7ft and can precision shoot. I’d say mindset is the only thing holding him back from achieving the type of greatness attempting to be placed on him.
    But hey, he DM’s guys who don’t shower him with praise and tells them to meet him an NY cafes to fight. The man is a mental powerhouse.
    ojandpizza
    And now we are at the point of the discussion where Twitter accounts equate to basketball talent. Got it.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Now this is making sense. You can’t comprehend my digs at KD because you don’t understand how the concept of mindset works. I already said how if you listen to the greats, you’ll hear them hone in on the mentality “attribute” far more than technical on court skillset.
    Every single dig I’ve made at KD can be attributed to a fragile mindset. He literally threatens to fight analysts in DM’s. If you can’t understand how that correlates with his career shortcomings relative to a “greatest player in the world” that I’ve outlined, that’s on you. He’s soft. On and off the court.
    AIRJ23
    Now this is making sense. You can’t comprehend my digs at KD because you don’t understand how the concept of mindset works. I already said how if you listen to the greats, you’ll hear them hone in on the mentality “attribute” far more than technical on court skillset.
    Every single dig I’ve made at KD can be attributed to a fragile mindset. He literally threatens to fight analysts in DM’s. If you can’t understand how that correlates with his career shortcomings relative to a “greatest player in the world” that I’ve outlined, that’s on you. He’s soft. On and off the court.

    I comprehend your digs just fine, they just aren’t at all relevant to this discussion or even remotely close to being relevant to what is supposed to be a discussion about 2k ratings. Whatever your opinion of his mindset is it’s just that, your opinion. Nobody can measure mindset. Nobody is in KD’s head, we don’t know how he thinks, if you think his mindset is fragile then fine, that’s your opinion not everyone has to agree with that and it’s sure as hell not showing on the basketball court. You keep bringing up career shortcomings like he’s not having a great career, if he’s coming up short to you, again that’s fine and that’s your opinion. It’s not on you decide for everyone else what his career path should be or could be, maybe we think he’s doing just fine. Why you can’t comprehend that you’re not the all seeing eye of all that is basketball is the problem with this entire “discussion” if we can even still call it that.
    You’ve rambled on for probably literally thousands of words at this point, spouting off all sorts of nonsensical stuff about MJ when nobody has called him MJ, about other past greats when nobody has compared him to a single past great, about random Mount Rushmore stuff when nobody has said he belongs on Mount Rushmore. You keep going on about him joining GS, about him losing an Olympic game, yet can’t seem to grasp that neither thing makes him better or worse at playing basketball or should be the basis of his 2k ratings. Nobody is in here trying to have some legacy discussion, it’s literally just you repeating yourself to yourself over and over. You clearly have some vendetta against KD, that’s fine, but why are you continuing to repeat that rant here over and over and over again? Almost everything you’ve said doesn’t even hardly pertain to the discussion, and you for damn sure haven’t even attempted to correlate any of this to a 2K rating.
    You ended one of your posts earlier with something like “But hey, that’s just me”. You were exactly right on that. It’s just you. So just leave it at that. Just give this whole spiel a rest already.
    ForeverVersatile
    Give Giannis KD’s body and he basically the worst player in the league. Without his athleticism he’s not a great player.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    Give kd mugsy bogues body and he would be flipping burgers at mcdonalds.
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    ojandpizza
    I comprehend your digs just fine, they just aren’t at all relevant to this discussion or even remotely close to being relevant to what is supposed to be a discussion about 2k ratings. Whatever your opinion of his mindset is it’s just that, your opinion. Nobody can measure mindset. Nobody is in KD’s head, we don’t know how he thinks, if you think his mindset is fragile then fine, that’s your opinion not everyone has to agree with that and it’s sure as hell not showing on the basketball court. You keep bringing up career shortcomings like he’s not having a great career, if he’s coming up short to you, again that’s fine and that’s your opinion. It’s not on you decide for everyone else what his career path should be or could be, maybe we think he’s doing just fine. Why you can’t comprehend that you’re not the all seeing eye of all that is basketball is the problem with this entire “discussion” if we can even still call it that.
    You’ve rambled on for probably literally thousands of words at this point, spouting off all sorts of nonsensical stuff about MJ when nobody has called him MJ, about other past greats when nobody has compared him to a single past great, about random Mount Rushmore stuff when nobody has said he belongs on Mount Rushmore. You keep going on about him joining GS, about him losing an Olympic game, yet can’t seem to grasp that neither thing makes him better or worse at playing basketball or should be the basis of his 2k ratings. Nobody is in here trying to have some legacy discussion, it’s literally just you repeating yourself to yourself over and over. You clearly have some vendetta against KD, that’s fine, but why are you continuing to repeat that rant here over and over and over again? Almost everything you’ve said doesn’t even hardly pertain to the discussion, and you for damn sure haven’t even attempted to correlate any of this to a 2K rating.
    You ended one of your posts earlier with something like “But hey, that’s just me”. You were exactly right on that. It’s just you. So just leave it at that. Just give this whole spiel a rest already.

    I mean, that’s fine and I’m all for ending the pointless discussion. But this started as a response to this “trend” of calling him “the best player in the world” as if it’s a marketing campaign. That’s where the legacy stuff comes in. Those are prestigious words to place on anyone, at least it should be in a world where players are worth their salt, and for a 7 foot tall guy who can shoot like he does, IMO his career isn’t “best player in the world” worthy. That’s all it’s about. I mean how can someone be considered the best player in the world when they haven’t even earned one last string all defensive team. And I don’t think his offensive metrics aren’t close to otherworldly enough to compensate for the defensive deficiencies or at best defensive normalcy to earn that title.
    It's more and more clear to me that the likes of KD or Book are underrated on defense at the same rate that the likes of Giannis, Lebron or Kawhi are overrated on defense... By NBA2k ratings I mean...
    Kawhi and Giannis been the 2 players with highest PERIMETER Defense it's just enough of a proof. OMG.
    Guard-ian
    It's more and more clear to me that the likes of KD or Book are underrated on defense at the same rate that the likes of Giannis, Lebron or Kawhi are overrated on defense... By NBA2k ratings I mean...

    Giannis should be the highest-rated defender in the game! 2 time DPOY and those sick blocks in the finals, like cmon.
    Giannis 95 LATERAL Quickness, (I will call it quickmess from now on LOL) more than ALL guards but Jrue who is 96... Kawhi 97 LATERAL Quickmess, more than ALL guards in the league... That's simply Absurd to say the least.
    Mikelopedia
    Each day I just keep hoping to see a new screen. Maybe tomorrow on page 21

    Mikelopedia, Great to see you back around the forums. Hopefully this week for sure we will see a lot more info. I keep seeing rumors of a delay and I just don't buy it. I think they want to wait until as close as possible to release to try and build excitement which I don't agree with but so be it. With no demo this year (Understandable in my opinion since shorter cycle & COVID restrictions for much of early development), I would of thought, more ratings and screens would of surfaced by now.
    ForeverVersatile
    I’m comparing Giannis and KD, not sure why you’re mentioning Muggsy.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    But it’s just as relevant a hypothetical. Fact is Giannis IS that athletic. And he worked at it. Just like the fact is KD is 6’10 with a 7’5 wingspan and lethal shot.
    Let’s not forget KD’s abysmal combine results. Only guy who couldn’t bench 185. He also had the third worst vertical, the fourth worst 40 yard dash and the single worst lane drill time. If he was 6 ft. he’d be Steve Kerr, at best.
    https://heavy.com/sports/2017/05/kevin-durant-nba-draft-combine-highlights-video-stats-kd-bench-press-who-what-team-when-2007-draft-how-much/amp/
    But fact is these guys are what they are. Giannis IS that athletic, KD is that tall, and you can only compare the final products with each other. It doesn’t matter that Giannis can’t shoot if he makes up for it everywhere else and achieves dominance. Just like KD isn’t very athletic other than what his slender height gifts him, or that he couldn’t lift 185 lbs., but he could ball all those fellow rookies up.
    Side note, I’ve always been tall and skinny too. I’m beginning to think I should start really repping KD as he’s so proudly repped tall and rail thin dudes.
    pjt8405
    Mikelopedia, Great to see you back around the forums. Hopefully this week for sure we will see a lot more info. I keep seeing rumors of a delay and I just don't buy it. I think they want to wait until as close as possible to release to try and build excitement which I don't agree with but so be it. With no demo this year (Understandable in my opinion since shorter cycle & COVID restrictions for much of early development), I would of thought, more ratings and screens would of surfaced by now.

    Whats up pjt, thanks man appreciate it. Yeah it won't be delayed. The marketing is what it is and we all know we're gonna buy it (the ones who dont skip years)regardless whenever it was that we normally buy it (pre order, at launch, after the first patch, christmas, etc). Their marketing approach is no indication of how much work went into the game by the various teams. We'll know soon enough. Until then, I'm encouraged by the look of jersey designs and Chris Paul's shorts lol.
    ForeverVersatile
    I’m comparing Giannis and KD, not sure why you’re mentioning Muggsy.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    You made a hypothetical comparison and so did i.
    Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Operation Sports
    tru11
    Give kd mugsy bogues body and he would be flipping burgers at mcdonalds.
    Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Operation Sports

    I always hate "what if" arguments. When presenting an argument it should be based on facts and reality. If a person needs to distort reality to prove a point and win a debate they probably don't have a strong argument to begin with.
    The "what if" game allows limitless possibilities and now either side can present their "what if" argument to prove whatever they want to prove. When it comes to sports you can basically elevate or diminish anyone's career and legacy once you start with the "what if" scenarios.
    scottyp180
    I always hate "what if" arguments. When presenting an argument it should be based on facts and reality. If a person needs to distort reality to prove a point and win a debate they probably don't have a strong argument to begin with.
    The "what if" game allows limitless possibilities and now either side can present their "what if" argument to prove whatever they want to prove. When it comes to sports you can basically elevate or diminish anyone's career and legacy once you start with the "what if" scenarios.

    Pretty much.
    But it fun when you take their silly what if and take it up a few notches 🤣
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    tru11
    Pretty much.
    But it fun when you take their silly what if and take it up a few notches 🤣
    Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Operation Sports

    Yeah it's interesting how people can think that one what if scenario is completely plausible but then be dismissive about another one. IMO once we start talking theoretical hypotheticals almost anything is on the table.
    scottyp180
    Yeah it's interesting how people can think that one what if scenario is completely plausible but then be dismissive about another one. IMO once we start talking theoretical hypotheticals almost anything is on the table.
    It's the same silly argument people made against Shaq, but it holds no water.
    The guy(s) are blessed with certain physical gifts which allows them all to be in the league. Of course, some need to supplement those gifts with more skills.
    That doesn't mean that a more skilled player is inherently better.
    Especially when there are two sides to a basketball game not just offense/scoring ability.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation
    J_Posse
    It's the same silly argument people made against Shaq, but it holds no water.
    The guy(s) are blessed with certain physical gifts which allows them all to be in the league. Of course, some need to supplement those gifts with more skills.
    That doesn't mean that a more skilled player is inherently better.
    Especially when there are two sides to a basketball game not just offense/scoring ability.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation

    Completely agree.
    The way I see the KD vs Giannis argument is that KD is the more skilled basketball player but that doesn't necessarily make him the better player. However I'm also not saying Giannis is definitively the better player either.
    We are talking about two players that have a HUGE impact on the game whenever they step on the court. If we are going to say one is better than the other it's not like it's a clear and obvious advantage. Both players were nearly unstoppable in the playoffs. The only thing that slowed KD down was that he stepped on the line in game 7 and Giannis got to a level where, besides a scary knee injury, nothing could stop him.
    But personally I'm not a big fan when it comes to ranking players because I feel like, to an extent, the rankings can be interchangeable once you get to a certain point. We are talking about two extremely elite players and determining who is better, imo, is more about a personal preference than any kind of objectifiable fact.
    J_Posse
    It's the same silly argument people made against Shaq, but it holds no water.
    The guy(s) are blessed with certain physical gifts which allows them all to be in the league. Of course, some need to supplement those gifts with more skills.
    That doesn't mean that a more skilled player is inherently better.
    Especially when there are two sides to a basketball game not just offense/scoring ability.
    Official HQ of Bills Backer/Spurs Nation

    Exactly. And it completely takes variables of reality out of the equation. For example, KD in Shaq’s body may not have developed the same guard like skills. Why would he? Shaq focused on strength and relentless physicality (and with his nature given finesse to pull it off like no one before or after) and was a more dominating force in the league than KD had been. Shaq was literally unstoppable in a physical league. So many bigs now try to play like guards that they give up their ace card. With the defensive three second rule and wide open paint, with fouls called on a feather touch, it’s so easy to score in the paint now. You see it whenever anyone actually tries. Yet everyone loiters around the perimeter. Other than dumb “I’m trying to fit into this new trend too” shots sometimes, Giannis is one of the only guys playing like he’s in 1998 and exploiting the soft defensive rules that make it so you literally can’t touch or stop someone from driving to the hole, and he’s dominating.
    So sometimes these “guard skills” everyone thinks are the only type of skills that mean anything, can be a detriment. If Giannis played like KD, he wouldn’t be Giannis. I don’t want dude pulling up from 3. I want him to just brutally hit the rack and prove how defenses are hand tied from stopping him.
    And that's just a "what if" in regards to a players body, athleticism, and subsequent skillset. There is also the "what if" route of "what if this game or this series" went differently? For example, "what if KD's foot wasn't over the line in game 7 and he hit a game ending, series ending 3 instead?" That play alone had huge ramifications for the playoffs, both players legacies, and possibly the Bucks franchise.
    But like I said before, once we start the "what if" game there is a whole rabbit hole we can go down that results in a whole alternate history of events.
    With KD, I’ma just leave it with this then go back to appreciate him repping us lanky dudes.
    I feel when he’s given credit, it’s often equating *potential* with *results.*
    When people call him a “one of the best scorers ever” they must be talking about potential or excuses. Because the results *factually* aren’t there.
    KD has only averaged 30 PPG TWICE, in the easiest era in history to score in. Where NBA marketing literally designed rules to suppress good defense so they can market the “next Mike’s.”
    KD’s CAREER HIGH is 54 points. Compare that to Kobe 81, MJ multiple 60-69 point games driving on 5 player coverage in clogged paint and hand checks, and several players hitting 60+. MJ dropped 51 at 40 years old in the 00’s on way more physical defense and legalized zone coverage.
    I know nobody here is comparing KD to MJ or Kobe, but when you pull out terms like “best scorers ever” or “one of,” forget the top slots, he ain’t even Kobe.
    Wilt bench pressed 600 lbs and ran a faster 40 than nearly any NBA player today and had a higher vertical than possibly any player today. At 7’2. He’d dominate even more than Giannis.
    I just can’t wrap my mind around phrases KD gets anointed. “Best player in the world” is one thing. But “one of the best scorers ever?” C’monnn. You need results to back it up. Not just “because he’s 7 ft. and can score anywhere.” That’s anecdotal. It needs to be applied.
    ————————————————————————
    Most 50 point games:
    1 Wilt Chamberlain 118
    2 Michael Jordan 31
    3 Kobe Bryant 25
    4 James Harden 23
    5 Elgin Baylor 17
    6 Rick Barry 14
    7 LeBron James 12
    8. Damian Lillard 12
    9 Allen Iverson 11
    10 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 10
    11 Stephen Curry 9
    12 Bernard King 8
    13 Dominique Wilkins 7
    14 Kevin Durant. 6
    A whopping 6 50 point games for “best scorer ever?” Don’t tell me it’s because he’s facilitating.
    —————————————————————————-
    Most 40 point games:
    1 Wilt Chamberlain 271
    2 Michael Jordan. 173
    3 Kobe Bryant. 122
    4 James Harden 101
    5 Elgin Baylor. 88
    6 Allen Iverson. 79
    7 Oscar Robertson. 77
    8 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. 70
    9 Rick Barry. 70
    10 George Gervin. 68
    11 LeBron James. 66
    12 Jerry West. 66
    13 Kevin Durant. 58
    —————————————————
    Most 60 point games + career high:
    Wilt Chamberlain. 32 / 100
    Kobe Bryant 6 / 81
    Michael Jordan 4 / 69
    James Harden 4 / 61
    Elgin Baylor 3 / 71
    Damian Lillard 3 / 61
    Kevin Durant 0 / 54
    Looking at points per game, especially across different eras, and even more so points scored in singular games, is the absolute worst way to determine scoring value.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ojandpizza
    Looking at points per game, especially across different eras, and even more so points scored in singular games, is the absolute worst way to determine scoring value.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Yeah who wants to determine scoring value based on actual scoring results.
    But hey, “best player in the world” despite losing in round two. “Best scorer ever” despite scoring performances that aren’t noteworthy in any era. “Doesn’t score because he facilitates” despite not being a facilitator. “Best athlete ever” despite bottom rung results at his rookie compound. “Back to back championships” on a team that had the best record in history before he jumped on.
    “He’s 7 ft. and can score from anywhere” is all ya need.
    I get it. This is KD’s world and we’re all here to boost him up about it.
    scottyp180

    And that's just a "what if" in regards to a players body, athleticism, and subsequent skillset. There is also the "what if" route of "what if this game or this series" went differently? For example, "what if KD's foot wasn't over the line in game 7 and he hit a game ending, series ending 3 instead?" That play alone had huge ramifications for the playoffs, both players legacies, and possibly the Bucks franchise.
    But like I said before, once we start the "what if" game there is a whole rabbit hole we can go down that results in a whole alternate history of events.

    Yep good points. That large foot is tied to KD’s greatest strength being his massive limbs. “What if he had smaller feet, he’d win the series.” “What if he had smaller feet, he’d be shorter and no more effective than any interchangeable SG shooter in today’s league.” Etc. Etc.
    10 pages and 5 days of bickering without a single mention of any attributes or badges. We're getting Wilt Chamberlain biblical stories, PPG nonsense, Playoff results, Olympic results, but no actual attempt to measure specific skills of players in any meaningful way.
    (Which I suspect is the point, or perhaps lack thereof. To ignore all counterpoints and good faith arguments and simply have the loudest voice in the room).
    AIRJ23
    Yeah who wants to determine scoring value based on actual scoring results.
    But hey, “best player in the world” despite losing in round two. “Best scorer ever” despite scoring performances that aren’t noteworthy in any era. “Doesn’t score because he facilitates” despite not being a facilitator. “Best athlete ever” despite bottom rung results at his rookie compound. “Back to back championships” on a team that had the best record in history before he jumped on.
    “He’s 7 ft. and can score from anywhere” is all ya need.
    I get it. This is KD’s world and we’re all here to boost him up about it.

    I wasn’t even talking about KD. I was speaking in general terms. “Points per game” isn’t a reflection of scoring results but rather a reflection of shot attempts. 30 points from 1 player inefficiently and 30 points from another player efficiently should not be considered the same “scoring results”.
    Especially when we are comparing 1 era to another. We can argue over which decade of basketball is better or harder or whatever, but at the end of the day nobody is playing under the same circumstance, rules, pace, opponents, when you start getting decades apart in a time span. If you aren’t at least making adjustments for pace and possessions then you are nowhere near the ballpark of being able to compare players who played 20 seasons apart from each other.
    Easiest example would be someone like Wilt because he’s such an outlier. But the year he averaged 50 points per game his team played at a pace of 131. He also averaged 48.5 minutes a night. At that rate his per 100 possession numbers are lower than his actual per game numbers. He was literally getting 132 possessions of playing time while the modern equivalent for a star player is about 75 possessions. That’s nearly 60 more chances for him to get shot attempts, rebounds, assists, etc. MJ on his career per 100 averaged 40/9/6, LeBron 37/10/10, imagine if either of those guys were to play in a season getting 132 possessions. That’s why you can’t just say “per game” and be anywhere close to the ballpark of making a comparison 30 years apart. Not to mention “per game” illustrates zero towards how efficiently those numbers were achieved. Wilt that season in modern terms averaged about 28 points per 75 possessions.
    By your example of “actual scoring results” Iverson scoring 30+ a night would be the same as Jordan scoring 30+ a night. Never-mind that it would take Iverson more shots scoring at a clip 4-5 notches below league average efficiency, while Jordan can get that same number is 6-7 notches above league average efficiency. Thus Iverson’s team offense will hover around the bottom 5 in the league while Jordan’s Bulls rank near the top every year. “Per game” tells you basically nothing if the context of how is left out.
    And you seem like a knowledgeable enough poster that I shouldn’t even really have to explain this, but picking 4 or 5 games out of a thousand game career isn’t even remotely close to being a good way to decide ability. Likewise nobody would ever say LeBron’s career high in rebounds is 19 so he’s basically as good of a rebounder as Rodman who’s best year was 19 a game.. that’s what cherry picking singular outlier games reads like. Like I said, I can tell your knowledgeable enough to understand that though, so why you used that as the basis of your rant is to me.
    Related to KD I don’t think a single person in here called him a great facilitator, the best athlete ever, best scorer ever, you’re just making up your own argument points for what purpose?
    And generally curious. Forget the player, but just in general… Who cares what a player did at their rookie compound? Giannis as an actual rookie started like 23 games and averaged 6 and 4.. are we supposed to judge the player he is now based on what he was doing then? That’s just nonsense talk . That’s like me saying MJ can’t be the GOAT because he was drafted 3rd. Again you seem knowledgeable enough to understand that **** doesn’t matter .
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Real2KInsider
    10 pages and 5 days of bickering without a single mention of any attributes or badges. We're getting Wilt Chamberlain biblical stories, PPG nonsense, Playoff results, Olympic results, but no actual attempt to measure specific skills of players in any meaningful way.
    (Which I suspect is the point, or perhaps lack thereof. To ignore all counterpoints and good faith arguments and simply have the loudest voice in the room).

    I’ve tried to mentioned numerous times that his points aren’t at all relevant to KD’s basketball abilities or how that translates to a 2K rating only to be told for the 19th time that KD lost an Olympic game and couldn’t bench press much when he was 19 and that Dame Lillard scored 60 points 3 times.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Responding to nonsense is a choice. Time is a finite resource.
    If someone discredits themselves by presenting arguments one would normally read in Facebook/YouTube comments, it is no one's obligation to give it any weight.
    ojandpizza
    I wasn’t even talking about KD. I was speaking in general terms. “Points per game” isn’t a reflection of scoring results but rather a reflection of shot attempts. 30 points from 1 player inefficiently and 30 points from another player efficiently should not be considered the same “scoring results”.
    Especially when we are comparing 1 era to another. We can argue over which decade of basketball is better or harder or whatever, but at the end of the day nobody is playing under the same circumstance, rules, pace, opponents, when you start getting decades apart in a time span. If you aren’t at least making adjustments for pace and possessions then you are nowhere near the ballpark of being able to compare players who played 20 seasons apart from each other.
    Easiest example would be someone like Wilt because he’s such an outlier. But the year he averaged 50 points per game his team played at a pace of 131. He also averaged 48.5 minutes a night. At that rate his per 100 possession numbers are lower than his actual per game numbers. He was literally getting 132 possessions of playing time while the modern equivalent for a star player is about 75 possessions. That’s nearly 60 more chances for him to get shot attempts, rebounds, assists, etc. MJ on his career per 100 averaged 40/9/6, LeBron 37/10/10, imagine if either of those guys were to play in a season getting 132 possessions. That’s why you can’t just say “per game” and be anywhere close to the ballpark of making a comparison 30 years apart. Not to mention “per game” illustrates zero towards how efficiently those numbers were achieved. Wilt that season in modern terms averaged about 28 points per 75 possessions.
    By your example of “actual scoring results” Iverson scoring 30+ a night would be the same as Jordan scoring 30+ a night. Never-mind that it would take Iverson more shots scoring at a clip 4-5 notches below league average efficiency, while Jordan can get that same number is 6-7 notches above league average efficiency. Thus Iverson’s team offense will hover around the bottom 5 in the league while Jordan’s Bulls rank near the top every year. “Per game” tells you basically nothing if the context of how is left out.
    And you seem like a knowledgeable enough poster that I shouldn’t even really have to explain this, but picking 4 or 5 games out of a thousand game career isn’t even remotely close to being a good way to decide ability. Likewise nobody would ever say LeBron’s career high in rebounds is 19 so he’s basically as good of a rebounder as Rodman who’s best year was 19 a game.. that’s what cherry picking singular outlier games reads like. Like I said, I can tell your knowledgeable enough to understand that though, so why you used that as the basis of your rant is to me.
    Related to KD I don’t think a single person in here called him a great facilitator, the best athlete ever, best scorer ever, you’re just making up your own argument points for what purpose?
    And generally curious. Forget the player, but just in general… Who cares what a player did at their rookie compound? Giannis as an actual rookie started like 23 games and averaged 6 and 4.. are we supposed to judge the player he is now based on what he was doing then? That’s just nonsense talk . That’s like me saying MJ can’t be the GOAT because he was drafted 3rd. Again you seem knowledgeable enough to understand that **** doesn’t matter .
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Ok sure, “what if he got more possessions” “what if he didn’t.”
    Fact is they play the game and adapt themselves to how it’s being played. Some can win and take control with big scoring outputs and some can’t.
    I didn’t say that the most points scored in a game renders someone as good as someone who *averages* that same amount a game. Of course it’s different.
    One thing I’ve noticed is NBA players treat how many shots one can take, and especially do so with a high percentage, and especially win *while* doing so, like a major skill in itself. That’s why I factor out advanced “per possession” stuff often. Like ok, he didn’t get as many possessions or take as many shots. Far as I’m concerned, that’s one factor in being a top tier scorer. “Can” and “did” are very different. Most NBA players will tell you they couldn’t shoot at a clip like Kobe did even if they tried. Nevermind succeed while doing so.
    That’s why these advanced metrics offer too many “what if’s.” What if KD had double the possessions? Maybe he’d exhaust himself and his efficiency would plummet. What if MJ cut his possessions in half? Maybe he’d be way more efficient per possession than KD since he’d adapt his game and certainly save energy. Too many “what if” variables with some of these metrics that assume people are robots and everything happens precisely the same way, no matter how many possessions are granted. Maybe they get less possessions because the team just inherently knows they aren’t capable of singlehandedly carrying a team. Maybe the others get more possessions because that’s the only way a team wins.
    In a 14 year career I’d imagine someone who’s debated as a “best scorer ever” (and yes it’s often mentioned) would have showcased something higher than 54 points. Or dropped more 40 point games. The reason I brought up facilitator is because he’s not facilitating when he’s not scoring. Sure he can be doing tons of stuff off ball, but remember I’m not calling him by any means a non elite player. I’m pointing all this out in argument of someone who’s called “best player ever” or some even claiming “best scorer ever” when the end results just ain’t backing it up.
    ojandpizza
    I’ve tried to mentioned numerous times that his points aren’t at all relevant to KD’s basketball abilities or how that translates to a 2K rating only to be told for the 19th time that KD lost an Olympic game and couldn’t bench press much when he was 19 and that Dame Lillard scored 60 points 3 times.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Yeah why would anyone point out KD’s end results stats, his Olympic team record being the worst in two decades, his championships coming off the back of teams that were 73-9 before him, his only averaging 30ppg twice, only 54 point career high, barely any 40 point games, and his actual recorded athletic stats or lack thereof as a presentation toward the argument that he’s overrated.
    But sure. He’s KD. Magical unicorn fairy dust that means we can’t judge him like we judge others. No all defensive teams but I’m crazy for arguing against the “best player in the world” slogan. He’s tall and can shoot, that means you have to break out a ruler and magnifying glass to understand his genius.
    AIRJ23

    That’s why these advanced metrics offer too many “what if’s.”

    Adjusted scoring for possession is not a what if
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    ojandpizza
    Adjusted scoring for possession is not a what if
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    It is quite literally a “what if.” “Adjusted scoring” by definition is a what if. When you adjust it, the stats become fiction. You’re acting like doubling someone’s possessions would yield identical efficiency results. Maybe they don’t get those possessions currently because they can’t handle the volume without efficiency falling off a cliff, maybe if a guy cuts his possessions in half his efficiency rating soars. Too many real life variables.
    AIRJ23
    It is quite literally a “what if.” “Adjusted scoring” by definition is a what if. When you adjust it, the stats become fiction. You’re acting like doubling someone’s possessions would yield identical efficiency results. Maybe they don’t get those possessions currently because they can’t handle the volume without efficiency falling off a cliff, maybe if a guy cuts his possessions in half his efficiency rating soars. Too many real life variables.

    No offense, but this is not even remotely close to what I was saying or what pace adjusted stats even are. Nobody is talking about the number of possessions the player is actually given the ball.
    AIRJ23
    But hey, “best player in the world” despite losing in round two.

    My dude... his two best teammates were playing hurt or not playing at all in that series, and they still pushed the eventual champs to a final shot in Game 7. Come on.
    AIRJ23
    “Best scorer ever” despite scoring performances that aren’t noteworthy in any era.

    You do realize that no one in NBA history matches his combination of scoring volume and efficiency, right? 27 PPG on 61.5% true shooting is GOAT-tier. That's his career average. That's Kevin Durant on an *average* night.
    Compare that to Jordan, who, IMO, is his only comp for best scorer ever: 31.5 PPG on 58% true shooting (ignored his Wizards years just for the sake of argument).
    Then remember that Durant is way more versatile than Jordan and can literally be inserted on any team ever and be an effective scorer without needing specific types of players around him, and without holding other players back.
    AIRJ23
    “Back to back championships” on a team that had the best record in history before he jumped on

    You think it's just that simple to take a player, insert him into a totally different system, and see instant results?
    Regardless, no one's arguing that KD is the GOAT or anything. The argument here is KD vs Giannis, and Giannis in the playoffs hasn't been head-and-shoulders above Durant, if he's been above Durant at all.
    ojandpizza
    Related to KD I don’t think a single person in here called him a great facilitator, the best athlete ever, best scorer ever, you’re just making up your own argument points for what purpose?

    I am. Dude consistently averages 26+ PPG on 60+ true shooting even after an achilles injury, which is basically a death sentence for a professional basketball player. He came back and averaged 34 PPG on 63% TS in the playoffs like it was nothing.
    AIRJ23
    his only averaging 30ppg twice, only 54 point career high, barely any 40 point games

    So you just don't care about efficiency or skillset? Or you're just ignoring them?
    Did you know that Per 36, Wilt only averaged 30 twice? His numbers are obviously inflated by the pace of play and heavy minutes, and Jordan's volume just makes him an outlier, which he deserves credit for, but it's not the be-all end-all.
    Either way, I assume Jordan is your pick for best scorer ever, and he clearly has a case. But only using metrics that clearly favor him (30-PPG seasons, 40-point games) in order to discredit everyone else is inherently biased.
    I could do that with Durant and discredit Jordan by saying that KD recorded a 60% or higher TS% 10 times, while Jordan only did it 4, and KD looks like he's on pace to possibly add to it.
    You have to consider ALL the factors that make each player the scorer that they are, not just the ones that support your argument.
    VictorMG
    My dude... his two best teammates were playing hurt or not playing at all in that series, and they still pushed the eventual champs to a final shot in Game 7. Come on.
    You do realize that no one in NBA history matches his combination of scoring volume and efficiency, right? 27 PPG on 61.5% true shooting is GOAT-tier. That's his career average. That's Kevin Durant on an *average* night.
    Compare that to Jordan, who, IMO, is his only comp for best scorer ever: 31.5 PPG on 58% true shooting (ignored his Wizards years just for the sake of argument).
    Then remember that Durant is way more versatile than Jordan and can literally be inserted on any team ever and be an effective scorer without needing specific types of players around him, and without holding other players back.
    You think it's just that simple to take a player, insert him into a totally different system, and see instant results?
    Regardless, no one's arguing that KD is the GOAT or anything. The argument here is KD vs Giannis, and Giannis in the playoffs hasn't been head-and-shoulders above Durant, if he's been above Durant at all.
    I am. Dude consistently averages 26+ PPG on 60+ true shooting even after an achilles injury, which is basically a death sentence for a professional basketball player. He came back and averaged 34 PPG on 63% TS in the playoffs like it was nothing.
    So you just don't care about efficiency or skillset? Or you're just ignoring them?
    Did you know that Per 36, Wilt only averaged 30 twice? His numbers are obviously inflated by the pace of play and heavy minutes, and Jordan's volume just makes him an outlier, which he deserves credit for, but it's not the be-all end-all.
    Either way, I assume Jordan is your pick for best scorer ever, and he clearly has a case. But only using metrics that clearly favor him (30-PPG seasons, 40-point games) in order to discredit everyone else is inherently biased.
    I could do that with Durant and discredit Jordan by saying that KD recorded a 60% or higher TS% 10 times, while Jordan only did it 4, and KD looks like he's on pace to possibly add to it.
    You have to consider ALL the factors that make each player the scorer that they are, not just the ones that support your argument.

    Ok, for skillset let’s go back to Giannis. What skills does KD have over Giannis other than shooting? KD himself said that he still learns moves from MJ and won’t accept being compared. Dude seems to be more realistic about himself than his fans are.
    I already explained by I see advanced stats as a “what if” toward the final result. I respect KD’s scoring efficiency. But fact is the end result isn’t otherworldly. 54 point career high? Barely any 50 and 40 point games compared to the highest scorers ever? That’s saying a lot for “best scorer ever.”
    Most efficient scorer ever, maybe I’ll give you that. But to be a best scorer he’s gotta apply it. Advanced stats work in a vacuum. If he shot as much as Kobe maybe his efficiency would plunge. Maybe that’s why he keeps his scoring careful in relative to other higher scorers. There are many players who don’t average all that much with high efficiency ratings. Doesn’t mean they can successfully double or triple their shots and become all time scoring leaders.
    I’m NOT trying to compare MJ and KD. Everyone here seems to be true enough NBA fans to where we don’t need to get into stupid “goat” debates and they respect what both players have done. But yes, naturally MJ is the barometer for scoring in a modern style game (modern being guard scoring oriented which MJ of course invented).
    You appear to understand the concept of volume scoring while winning being a skill unto itself. Has KD exemplified that he can do that? A bit, but not completely. Most elite scorers will go ham for at least one season. KD has always been a bit more measured.
    As for Wilt, I mean, those massive possessions are just more of a case for how impressive he is. Most dudes would get exhausted or subbed out because they couldn’t dominate like that, control the game constantly and win. Scoring efficiency *to me* while impressive in its own right, isn’t as impressive or visceral as an end result. Also you never know if someone who’s efficient at the limits or choices they set, would be as efficient if they upped possessions (but looking at Wilt’s athletic figures + build, he may very well be the greatest athlete of all time).
    They’re both skills unto themselves.
    Also I don’t think KD is more of a threat than MJ or Kobe anywhere but behind the 3 point line. Post game isn’t as tough and he could never handle the physical packed-paint D MJ did where his body was brutalized and he often had to dunk or drive on 5 players in a very hands-on era. Never mind KD never getting hand checked so he can’t truly be bodied up on the perimeter. And I don’t think he has the skillset of Kobe. KD IMO isn’t truly a “goat” in any one specific area (and not when near the convo) on defense. He’s sort of a jack of all trades but not the best in any one. He’s not a super impressive athlete if looking at figures either. Bottom of his compound. His gift will always be his slender height and matched with shooting ability.
    That said, I DON’T disagree with you. I just see it from another angle/argument.
    The Wilson basketball looks really nice. Maybe I’m just reaching but in the screens it looks better than the Spalding ball ever looked in 2K.
    AIRJ23
    What skills does KD have over Giannis other than shooting? KD himself said that he still learns moves from MJ and won’t accept being compared. Dude seems to be more realistic about himself than his fans are.

    What does that KD quote have to do with anything in this context?
    Either way, KD is the better scorer and probably the better passer plus ballhandler.
    AIRJ23
    I already explained by I see advanced stats as a “what if” toward the final result. I respect KD’s scoring efficiency. But fact is the end result isn’t otherworldly. 54 point career high? Barely any 50 and 40 point games compared to the highest scorers ever? That’s saying a lot for “best scorer ever.”

    You literally just repeated your argument without addressing any point I made besides saying "advanced stats are a 'what if'," which I am very confused about.
    AIRJ23
    Most efficient scorer ever, maybe I’ll give you that. But to be a best scorer he’s gotta apply it. Advanced stats work in a vacuum. If he shot as much as Kobe maybe his efficiency would plunge. Maybe that’s why he keeps his scoring careful in relative to other higher scorers.

    Durant doesn't take a Jordan-tier volume of shots because he's almost always had another superstar scorer on every team he's played for. That speaks volumes for Durant's adaptability; the fact that he can have success next to Westbrook, Curry, AND Kyrie/Harden, four vastly different players, all in different systems, is extraordinary.
    AIRJ23
    There are many players who don’t average all that much with high efficiency ratings.

    27 PPG isn't "not all that much." You're just obsessed with how big the number of points is and that logic is flawed. If it wasn't, Iverson would be bar none a Top 3 scorer ever.
    AIRJ23
    Doesn’t mean they can successfully double or triple their shots and become all time scoring leaders.

    I don't think anyone said that, and I know that I definitely didn't.
    AIRJ23
    You appear to understand the concept of volume scoring while winning being a skill unto itself. Has KD exemplified that he can do that? A bit, but not completely. Most elite scorers will go ham for at least one season. KD has always been a bit more measured.

    So you're faulting him for not freezing out Westbrook or Curry and being crazy efficient while doing so.
    AIRJ23
    Scoring efficiency *to me* while impressive in its own right, isn’t as impressive or visceral as an end result. Also you never know if someone who’s efficient at the limits or choices they set, would be as efficient if they upped possessions

    What "end result"? Having a historical positive impact offensively on every team you're on for the last nine years?
    I don't know what to tell you. If you refuse to grasp the idea that the combination volume AND efficiency matters, then I can't make you.
    You're over here acting like Durant is averaging 15 points a game. KD makes teams great offensively, period. There is no metric to dispute the fact that with Durant on the floor, every team he's played for gets WAY better, and there are plenty of stats to support it.
    His On/Off stats are mind-blowing. His teams are AT LEAST +9 in offensive rating when he's on the floor every single year since 2013. That's really, really good. Like, all-time great level.
    AIRJ23
    Also I don’t think KD is more of a threat than MJ or Kobe anywhere but behind the 3 point line.

    He's also taller relative to his peers, which makes it easier to shoot over the top, and he's definitely comparable to Jordan from mid-range, if not better. The only area where Jordan has a good argument for better than Durant is at the rim, and even then it might be closer than I'm giving it credit for.
    AIRJ23
    Post game isn’t as tough and he could never handle the physical packed-paint D MJ did where his body was brutalized and he often had to dunk or drive on 5 players in a very hands-on era. Never mind KD never getting hand checked so he can’t truly be bodied up on the perimeter.

    It worked fine for Reggie Miller.
    Kevin Durant is probably the best mid-range scorer in NBA history. He simply plays in an era where the 3pt shot is strategically more important.
    He's shot 50% from Mid (16-23 feet) dating back to 2016 w/ something like 60% of those shots being unassisted. Same goes for his short mid game (3-15 feet).
    Real2KInsider
    Kevin Durant is probably the best mid-range scorer in NBA history. He simply plays in an era where the 3pt shot is strategically more important.
    He's shot 50% from Mid (16-23 feet) dating back to 2016 w/ something like 60% of those shots being unassisted. Same goes for his short mid game (3-15 feet).

    It's hard to compare since we don't have mid-range stats for Bird, Jordan, etc.
    With all due respect, regardless of who the players are or what the topic is, if somebody is saying things like advanced stats are a "what if" or only "work in a vacuum" while also judging a players scoring ability based on single games and overall ability on losing single games, and that's a hill they are repeatedly choosing to stand on you're just as well off talking to a wall.
    And it's incredibly ironic that the person even using the term "in a vacuum" is the one so stuck on a basic counting stat that ignores everything related to the how. Points per game is quite literally points in a vacuum as it's completely separated from how the points are scored, how efficiently they are scored, it ignores pace, rules, play-style, scalability, and how any of those points translate to actual team offense.
    ojandpizza
    With all due respect, regardless of who the players are or what the topic is, if somebody is saying things like advanced stats are a "what if" or only "work in a vacuum" while also judging a players scoring ability based on single games and overall ability on losing single games, and that's a hill they are repeatedly choosing to stand on you're just as well off talking to a wall.
    And it's incredibly ironic that the person even using the term "in a vacuum" is the one so stuck on a basic counting stat that ignores everything related to the how. Points per game is quite literally points in a vacuum as it's completely separated from how the points are scored, how efficiently they are scored, it ignores pace, rules, play-style, scalability, and how any of those points translate to actual team offense.

    With advanced metrics that damn near measures and tracks everything these days, I never understood how people can decide to "ignore" them and try to convince people to use their eyes. Numbers are cold and are the end results of data collected over time. I will always say that stats can't measure a player's heart, BUT they're still producing data regardless of what we know of their mental state.
    Jordan would be the ONLY player in NBA history that I would be interested in being able to measure his "mindset" and performance at the same time. Beyond him...just give me some video and a player's scouting report.
    ksuttonjr76
    With advanced metrics that damn near measures and tracks everything these days, I never understood how people can decide to "ignore" them and try to convince people to use their eyes. Numbers are cold and are the end results of data collected over time. I will always say that stats can't measure a player's heart, BUT they're still producing data regardless of what we know of their mental state.
    Jordan would be the ONLY player in NBA history that I would be interested in being able to measure his "mindset" and performance at the same time. Beyond him...just give me some video and a player's scouting report.

    Even myself being a person who obviously puts stock into lots of different stats I never think they should be used blindly. I think eye test is incredibly valuable as well, like anything else even stats without other context applied don’t paint the whole picture. The problem is nobody has the same “eyes” and conversations like this often have someone stepping into the discussion with a preconceived agenda. In this case KD is clearly taking up more real estate in this guys head than he even owns in real life lol. There is a massive amount of bias being displayed here. And that’s why only the “eye test” without anything to back it up is also misleading. Which it’s basically been stated that his eyes are better than everyone else’s and more reliable than all stats, which there in lies the problem with how ridiculous this thread has been. Even using his own logic of points per game being the only “actual results” that matter, KD is still 5th all time in ppg, 3rd all time in playoff ppg. This isn’t a one game, one month, one season, one 3 year stretch, he’s been doing this for a decade. To say he’s not one of the best scorers ever is just a blatant decision to not give him his due credit, regardless of if you think he’s 1st, 5th, 9th, you can’t say he’s not in that discussion.
    Mixed with that is a complete lack of comprehension for what people here are actually saying. Just making up stuff others aren’t even saying, calling everyone to talk positively of KD “fan boys” despite the fact that I didn’t even disagree with him that Giannis was a better all around player. And myself, I’m too damn old to be a fan boy of anybody. I’m not going to drool over people younger than me lmao. Problem is you don’t have to try to completely tear down one guy to say another is good. There is no true large separation in the league right now at the top. Giannis is amazing, KD amazing, healthy Bron still amazing, the season Joker just had, amazing.. more often than not if you pick any of those guys even people who disagree with you aren’t going to really hate if you have decent reason for your opinion. But this dude has went out of his way to act like just calling Kevin Durant great is inaccurate, and that is just laughable on every level.
    If we are being completely realistic they just poled 10 GMs and literally 5 of them said KD was the best in the league, other 5 said Giannis is the best in the league. It’s not like there is currently a huge gap where somebody is right or wrong. But he’s going so far out of his way to just tear down KD, and saying all sorts of random stuff that isn’t even applicable. Acting like a draft combine bench press shows the caliber of player you are 13 years later, losing an Olympic game makes you a worse NBA player, saying KD’s clutch shot isn’t great because Dame made one like for some reason they can’t both be great shots, just stuff that makes absolutely no sense. You don’t even need any of that random BS to think Giannis is better.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    VictorMG
    It's hard to compare since we don't have mid-range stats for Bird, Jordan, etc.

    We have four years worth of mid-range stats for Jordan.
    Jordan 1997 (Season + Playoffs)
    Rim (0-3 ft): 255-468 (55%), 50% assisted
    Close (3-15 ft): 425-890 (48%), 46% assisted
    Mid (16+ ft): 343-668 (51%), 51% assisted
    *3pt: 124-364 (34%), 74% assisted
    *3pt line was shorter from 1995-1997, boosting volume & percentage league-wide
    Jordan 1998 (Season + Playoffs)
    Rim: 357-565 (63%), 47% assisted
    Close: 366-894 (41%), 45% assisted
    Mid: 358-791 (45%), 56% assisted
    **3pt: 43-169 (25%), 84% assisted
    ** 3pt line was normal in 1998
    Durant 2021 (Season + Playoffs)
    Rim: 100-126 (79%), 50% assisted
    Close: 191-370 (52%), 39% assisted
    Mid: 60-118 (51%), 47% assisted
    3pt: 118-271 (44%), 66% assisted
    Note that 32-year old Kevin Durant shot better AND was assisted less in each zone than 33-year old & 1997 MVP Jordan.
    It goes w/o saying that Durant is the vastly superior 3pt shooter. He doesn't lose points for creating harder shots off the dribble. Jordan was the best scorer of his era and Durant absolutely wipes the floor with him in terms of shooting off the dribble.
    --------------------------------------------------
    Durant is 10th all-time in TS% (62 TS%) and 11th all-time in Usage (30%).
    (That's insane).
    Jordan: 102nd in TS% (57%) and 1st in Usage (33%)
    Bird: 126th in TS% (56%) and 49th in Usage (26%)
    Kobe: 228th in TS% (55%), 3rd in Usage (32%)
    LeBron: 45th in TS% (59%), 5th in Usage (32%)
    The only scorers in history in his ballpark:
    Harden: 11th in TS% (61%), 9th in Usage (31%)
    Curry: 4th in TS% (63%), 21st in Usage (28%)

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