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The Ongoing Help Defense Saga in NBA 2K22 (Part 2)

NBA 2K22 help defense

NBA 2K22

The Ongoing Help Defense Saga in NBA 2K22 (Part 2)

In part one of this two-part series, I went through why the patch was necessary and discussed game development a bit. In part two, I want to dive more into the patch itself and NBA 2K22 help defense as a whole.

NBA 2K22 Help Defense Issues

nba 2k22

Is This Just A Bug?

First off, is this just a “bug” or not? This is a communication issue to some extent with the patch notes (or 2K simply does not know), but the change to how the AI helped from the opposite corner should not have led to the issues we’re now seeing with a general “stickiness” defenders have to players without the ball. Of course, game development being how it is, your one change can lead to 1,000 new issues, and so this change could just be a bug rather than “as designed” at this juncture.

There is some feeling it’s just a bug because that same help defense is still in there somewhere. Here is an example of the generally solid help defense from OS user Smirkin Dirk:

The best-case scenario is this is just a bug, and it will be fixed (again) like it was before. However, with each passing day it feels like there is less of a chance we get back to the more “traditional” help defense that existed before.

On Ball Vs. Off Ball

One of the major elements at play here is that I think to some extent the “wrong” area was attacked in this patch. The initial change was due to players being upset about extra “unneeded” help coming off players to help defend “open” cutters. But before that was an issue, players were more frustrated by the closing speed of the bigs and how tough the AI defense was on the ball. Besides the cutter help, the team defense was not being dinged in this community all that much.

As the weeks have passed, it’s become more obvious how to beat on-ball defenders with subtle movements and nuance, and so it’s not that challenging anymore to beat your man off the ball. However, this means it’s extra awkward that the team defense has taken a step back at a time where people are finally getting comfortable beating their man off the dribble or with a simple pick.

This isn’t me saying maybe we would have been better off not tuning/tweaking defense at all — I am pro-patch in a general sense, and I do think 2K was better this year about not just going wild patching things after only a couple days. But the better way to attack this (albeit it’s not something that can be attacked in a quick-fix patch because it’s an involved process) would be to look more deeply at the defensive settings themselves to satisfy all parties. This way individuals could tweak the defense themselves without patching something that makes some people frustrated with the outcome — even if we know why the change was made.

I’ll get more into the defensive settings in the next section, but I want to call out again how the defensive “tweaks” you make in the menus only matter in many instances on the ball. If you make changes to your settings, you will only see these changes if they relate to on-ball defense.

To reiterate, this is because of how the help defense is coded in 2K in a general sense. Your changes only matter if 2K wants them to matter. In this case, 2K has help defense rules that cannot be usurped by what you change in the menus. The system is not smart enough to react to what you have changed, and thus it just pretends like you didn’t change anything at all in many instances.

To really hammer home the point, here is the AI defense doing wildly different things on ball vs. off ball — so it was not even the user who made these changes.

Notice how that defense is in standard “one pass away” defense, but then follows the rule of “leave” once Josh Jackson gets the ball.

The AI does not respect Jerami Grant even with the ball in the corner (which is a little odd), and does something similar here:

This shows that the help defense is relatively rigid with its rules, but then the options open up depending on who has the ball. What this means is that it seems like the gap/smother/moderate/tight off-ball settings have little use right now because there is little difference between them.

This ties directly into a longer discussion about defensive options.

NBA 2K22 Has Many “Broken” Defensive Options

NBA 2K22 defensive settings

Defensive settings are an aspect of the game that both the “comp” players and the “sim” players agree are useful and awesome if/when they work. It is also clear that a ton of these defensive settings do not work. This is not news, and it has not been news for years.

I spent time going through some of these issues with the individual defensive settings in a video I put out right before NBA 2K22 came out, and I did it because I did assume some of the same issues would still exist in the new game. After all, this was a transition year with a shortened development window, and I know (as weird as it sounds) you can actually break the game and create more bugs by just removing something that is in the game.

That said, the 2K team has to sacrifice some development time and just strip out all this stuff that is not working and start fresh where needed. All that happens right now with stuff that does not actually work — whether it’s in the “gameplan” pause menu or in the coaching settings of the timeout menu — is create confusion. We can’t come up with solutions to defensive problems if the tools we have been given do not work. It’s only made worse when you give us tools that do not work on top of that because then we bang our heads off the hardwood trying to decipher what’s even useful to tweak.

So how many of the defensive settings even work as intended right now? It’s hard for me to say, but it’s less than 50 percent of them. I’m not sure if any of the “hedge” settings work. It’s unclear if things like “shrink the floor” work as a more global team defense setting. In short, as a user with zero insight into what’s going on behind the scenes in a “dev” build of the game, it would probably be easier to identify what settings do work rather than the ones that don’t.

2K can also be its own worst enemy in a way because the other related issue on this front has always been surfacing these options. I will always say 2K is the deepest game out there when it comes to gameplay depth, but most people don’t even know about half the options in this game.

Stuff like how the help defense button works is still news to people this year when it’s been in the game for a couple years now:

This also goes to things like people not knowing that the passing in 2K is actually much deeper if you want it to be. You can change to icon passing with pass type control and then throw lobs, bounce passes, or regular passes based on your button press. It even goes to something like ACE where we’re still not exactly sure what it does to the AI, or if it’s the reason why some games just feel so weird compared to others in terms of what the AI is doing.

The irony of all of this is that the coaching “gameplan” menu in the pause menu actually does have relatively good explanations for all the things you’re changing. Of course, the problem is that a lot of those tweaks you want to make don’t actually work. Regardless, developers can figure out better ways to onboard users or surface options already in the game. The point is that none of that stuff will matter unless the options in the game work as designed.

The bottom line here is you just have to rip all the defensive settings out and only put in settings that work. If that means we lose options, that’s fine because most of the ones we have now don’t work anyway.

Drop Coverage

I don’t want to discuss drop coverage (specifically with the hedge defender) too much and why it’s instituted so much around the real NBA on pick and rolls, but I do want to say there is a reason why that is the case. The roller is incredibly dangerous and will have a field day if the drop coverage is spotty. The roller will also run roughshod if not enough help comes from the other defenders when that defending big has to step up more on a good shooter in cases where the initial defender is forced to go over the pick. The players spotting up around the pick and roll get the ball more in terms of how pick and rolls end, but this is because the defense tries to take away the roller as a first priority before scrambling to get to the shooters.

In short, the big defending a pick-and-roll action has a lot of responsibilities, but first and foremost he has to stay in front of the action. The AI bigs were bad at drop coverage even before the patch (so the patch did not “break” this much more than it already was), but I want to call it out here since I want to make the point that there’s a reason why so many people off ball the pick and roll action and “user” the big:

This is brutal defense. Lopez should probably have more help, but his angles are a mess and gets dusted without taking anything away.

And here is an example where there’s a harder hedge (so not drop coverage), but now no one helps on the strong side once Fox rejects the pick.

There is no one there to stop the ball — let alone tag the roller if that had come up.

This has been a general issue for years and remains one today. This is a big reason why so many “comp” players play so much off-ball defense in the first place. Yes they like to “cheat” for steals and spam buttons at times, but playing good on-ball D just is not very important when one pick can wreck any good you’re doing “usering” on the ball.

I do want to point out that the AI big is capable of doing the right thing as you can see here:

But with a more spread floor (in the common five-out scenario), you really don’t see AI bigs that can consistently do basic drop coverage to stop the rush to the paint.

Online Vs. Offline

I have seen Czar mention this, and I’ve seen people mention it in the community for years, so I want to weigh in on the topic of tuning gameplay for the online crowd while not making those updates trickle down to people playing offline against the AI. To be clear, right now there’s no real good way for 2K to do that all around in some cases.

I do think this particular update to defense highlights why splitting the update off for just the online community could be a way to go. That said, I’m always very wary of splitting the community up because it’s just an added headache for development. On top of that, if sliders work right, then offline users can circumvent some of the issues that crop up. It’s harder in this case because the rotations just don’t seem to work as well now no matter what, but that seems more like a “tools” problem once again than a reason to split the two communities up.

It’s not to say that I’m totally against the idea of splitting the communities, but unless the 2K development team is big enough to fully support gameplay styles that are diverging that much offline and online to support both, I would try to avoid it. There are exceptions like this snafu where perhaps it makes sense, but I feel like if they go this route, it should be more to tune stuff in Park or maybe to tune AI teammates when you’re in The Rec.

(One other exception could be later in the year once every MyTeam is stacked with insane players who “break” the normal gameplay with regular NBA teams.)

Still, whether it’s online or offline, trying to change the 5-on-5 gameplay modes where it’s just one user vs. another or a user vs. the CPU feels dodgy.

However, an area where I think it does make sense almost all the time to split each community up relates to shooting. That said, as long as “greens” exist, then tuning the shooting is almost irrelevant in a way because there’s still a binary outcome that exists in most situations once certain people get good at timing their shots. You can change contest percentages and all this other stuff, but when you’re good you’re just going to hit a lot more shots than you would in real life.

Of course, that simplifies it a little too much to some extent because not every online user is as good as the next. High-level “comp” players had a bigger issue with the cutter help because their competition was just better. This means giving up an open corner jumper was an easy three points (especially since they don’t usually play on HOF) when it would not be the same “easy” points in your standard PNO or MyTeam game (at least not during this period because there are not too many insane cards out). Plus, not everyone plays five out online like they do in most “comp” games, which is what made this problem worse for them.

Now, again, this is may just be an indictment of the “greens” system, but other people who play online a lot on HOF were more comfortable giving up some open jumpers rather than the easy two points. At some point down the line maybe that would no longer be true, but for now even us “comp” HOF online users were okay with giving up a healthy amount of open jumpers — even if it was from the corner. After all, that’s just a part of NBA life now.

Bottom Line

I could talk more about what’s going on (or not) with double teams and such, but I want to cut this off here because I don’t want to stray too far from discussing the core issue of help defense itself. At the end of the day, we’re just looking for a little clarity and consistency with help defense. Feel free to continue to use the thread that has been tied to these two articles to discuss things further.

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Discussion
  1. alabamarob
    The bigs speed, and the unrealistic on ball defense is what needed to be turned down. Not the help defense. The help defense was the main improvement to the game requiring people to now shoot jumpers as opposed to spamming the paint. They turned down the cutter defense for the “competitive” gamers, and now the help defense is extra slow and lax also.
    No reason for Capela to by at the 3 point line hugging Steven Adams as Morant blows by my defender, and the same thing on the other end. Watching Trae and Morant have a 1 on 1 layup contest, when 2 weeks ago the defense was flooding the paint is disappointing.
    If the help defense isn’t going to be where it was earlier, then 90 percent of the potential in this game is gone. For the guys who like to run real NBA teams, and play against the CPU we can’t be sent back to 2k21 help defense.

    They need to give us a slider or something so the offliners don’t have to suffer. I guess guys were complaining that they couldn’t grind their MyPlayers because they had to actually play some basketball.
    Everyone wants **** easy.
    10000% second this! This change to the gameplay sapped almost all my excitement about the game. I feel as though I'm just playing a faster moving 2k21 now. Prior to the update that affected the help D, it was absolutely possible to play 100% on ball defense, now you HAVE to user situations such as you described Rob, like Capela hugging a non shooting center while the PG blows by for a layup.
    The complaint from the all knowing "comp community" was giving up the corner 3 when that corner defender would recognize a cutter or would move to tag the roller, but thats modern NBA basketball. They introduced the "chase behavior" tech this year that covers that hole and it was a beautiful thing. Now the only time you'll see it is if you call for a double team. Or they would complain because they would user control an off ball defender and put him in a position that would confuse the AI.
    Cant the "comp community" just enjoy the video game environment they've created in rec/park/pro am without ruining 5 v 5 NBA gameplay as well? We of the MyNBA, Online sim head to head, User vs AI and AI vs AI community would really appreciate that.
    Don't get me wrong, there was plenty of room to improve such as pre rotating a big off of a non shooting big, choosing where you want the help to come from, whom you want to run off the 3 point line off the rotation, a new defensive settings menu that properly works in conjunction with the growing defensive system. However, this now is 100% 1 step forward 2 steps back to appease some cry babies would don't understand modern NBA basketball.
    ataman5
    Well they did not touch on Current Gen as of now, hopefully they won't!
    Yea it seems like they haven't touched it. But d**** the bigs still play too tight on the perimeter. I've tried everything to get the CPU bigs to not play tight on their man but I'm still testing.
    If they fix this, and the double teams on switches, 2k22 would be just about perfect for PC.
    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
    Mikelopedia
    10000% second this! This change to the gameplay sapped almost all my excitement about the game. I feel as though I'm just playing a faster moving 2k21 now. Prior to the update that affected the help D, it was absolutely possible to play 100% on ball defense, now you HAVE to user situations such as you described Rob, like Capela hugging a non shooting center while the PG blows by for a layup.
    The complaint from the all knowing "comp community" was giving up the corner 3 when that corner defender would recognize a cutter or would move to tag the roller, but thats modern NBA basketball. They introduced the "chase behavior" tech this year that covers that hole and it was a beautiful thing. Now the only time you'll see it is if you call for a double team. Or they would complain because they would user control an off ball defender and put him in a position that would confuse the AI.
    Cant the "comp community" just enjoy the video game environment they've created in rec/park/pro am without ruining 5 v 5 NBA gameplay as well? We of the MyNBA, Online sim head to head, User vs AI and AI vs AI community would really appreciate that.

    If I am being honest about things. With the help defense where it is right now, this game is worst then 2k21. The defensive settings don’t work just like 21. There is little to no help defense like 21, and the speed is horrible and unrealistic.
    Shot blocking is different, but not necessarily better with all these chasedown blocks.
    I have no idea how they can take an NBA game with player licenses, and make the game 99 percent myplayer/ “competitive” friendly. I knew when they removed the cutter help it was going to be like this.
    Mikelopedia
    Don't get me wrong, there was plenty of room to improve such as pre rotating a big off of a non shooting big, choosing where you want the help to come from, whom you want to run off the 3 point line off the rotation, a new defensive settings menu that properly works in conjunction with the growing defensive system. However, this now is 100% 1 step forward 2 steps back to appease some cry babies would don't understand modern NBA basketball.

    I will remain optimistic and tell myself this will get fixed quickly. I doubt that they would leave help defense in its current state, especially since the defensive settings don’t work. NBA defense is not about blocking shots to protect the paint, and its not about bumping and suffocating people on the perimeter to prevent dribble penetration.
    Great thread Rob.
    Before we inevitably go down the "They ruined the game for MyCareer players" rabbit hole...
    This effected us who played head to head online with NBA teams as well, since it's much easier for humans to trigger the oversenstive (Czars words mind you) cutter help for an open 3. Running 5 out and exploiting this was the meta.
    I'm not sure what the solution is until we get into individual help settings, but maybe there are solutions to be found. Ideally we could make these adjustments "online only" but I assumed something intricate like this can't be seperated.
    Czars been open about this stuff and making adjustments based on feedback. We should get our voices involved in the conversation too.
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
    The 24th Letter
    Great thread Rob.
    Before we inevitably go down the "They ruined the game for MyCareer players" rabbit hole...
    This effected us who played head to head online with NBA teams as well, since it's much easier for humans to trigger the oversenstive (Czars words mind you) cutter help for an open 3. Running 5 out and exploiting this was the meta.
    I'm not sure what the solution is until we get into individual help settings, but maybe there are solutions to be found. Ideally we could make these adjustments "online only" but I assumed something intricate like this can't be seperated.
    Czars been open about this stuff and making adjustments based on feedback. We should get our voices involved in the conversation too.
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

    Please help me out 24. I have only played about 5 or 6 games. What exactly is the meta? How do they create an open 3 everytime down? I could barely score 100 points or shoot 40 percent from the field. I am not good, but I am an average player and never saw or heard of that.
    You know I am pro Czar, and appreciate all he has added to the game. The offense is excellent. I have zero complaints about the offense. He is great at his job. However, I am little irritated because the defensive settings already don’t work, and we were relying on CPU help rotations. So if we don’t get to control our help with the settings, and they took out help defense and cutter help? We now have a game of 1 on 1 every single time down the floor. 5 guys huggin their man on the perimeter with a 1 v 1 dribble competition.
    This is the first time that you couldn’t spam the paint, without shooters because the help was going to be there. You could play 100 percent on ball knowing you have help. It’s hard to go back from that. Imo.
    I don’t really like to speak on solutions after watching Czar’s videos, because I am not an expert in how to make that “system” work in the game. Someone else mentioned and I agree that there is already a coaching slider labeled help defense. I wouldn’t be surprised if that setting was placebo though, like other settings. If we want guys over helping we can turn the help defensive slider up or if they don’t want guys helping they can turn the slider down.
    Why couldn’t the “competitive” guys go off ball when the user was going off ball to draw the help? They say the meta was off ball drawing of the corner guy, so just go off ball to keep him there. So we have to change how we play each other and the cpu, so those guys wouldn’t have to go off ball and keep their defender in the corner?
    I don't know guys. I am seeing too many bigs hugging players at perimeter right now, playing on current gen. I really hope I am wrong, but it seems current was touched as well as next gen. If not, sure looks that way.
    alabamarob
    Please help me out 24. I have only played about 5 or 6 games. What exactly is the meta? How do they create an open 3 everytime down? I could barely score 100 points or shoot 40 percent from the field. I am not good, but I am an average player and never saw or heard of that.
    You know I am pro Czar, and appreciate all he has added to the game. The offense is excellent. I have zero complaints about the offense. He is great at his job. However, I am little irritated because the defensive settings already don’t work, and we were relying on CPU help rotations. So if we don’t get to control our help with the settings, and they took out help defense and cutter help? We now have a game of 1 on 1 every single time down the floor. 5 guys huggin their man on the perimeter with a 1 v 1 dribble competition.
    This is the first time that you couldn’t spam the paint, without shooters because the help was going to be there. You could play 100 percent on ball knowing you have help. It’s hard to go back from that. Imo.
    I don’t really like to speak on solutions after watching Czar’s videos, because I am not an expert in how to make that “system” work in the game. Someone else mentioned and I agree that there is already a coaching slider labeled help defense. I wouldn’t be surprised if that setting was placebo though, like other settings. If we want guys over helping we can turn the help defensive slider up or if they don’t want guys helping they can turn the slider down.
    Why couldn’t the “competitive” guys go off ball when the user was going off ball to draw the help? They say the meta was off ball drawing of the corner guy, so just go off ball to keep him there. So we have to change how we play each other and the cpu, so those guys wouldn’t have to go off ball and keep their defender in the corner?

    You're playing sim minded ballers on HOF right? Changes the dynamic and percentages a bit.
    Here's an example from a "comp player"
    https://twitter.com/SplashEdition/status/1442630815083638784?s=19
    I get both sides of the conversation in the comments.
    Even for someone like me who loves playing on ball for the most part to keep the offense honest, I know I have to manually rotate on some situations. Thing is that help would trigger when when the AI interprets a toe behind the defender as "open" and helps down.
    I really do understand that decision as well though, and how it translates in HUM vs. CPU games. At the end of the day, I believe It all comes down to being able to adjust individual settings.
    but it's definitely not a pure comp complaint IMO. I just don't know what the answer is.
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
    If you guys manually select to double a player, as well go into the other team’s settings to manually double team one of your players, will that work at least?? Because that worked in 2K21. If it doesn’t work in 22, while it worked in 21, looks like we officially have a game worse than 2K21.
    Also, is there a slider that controls or affects held D?
    We’re stuck with 2K21 forever, guys. No matter how good devs make this game, the online park curry slide paint sniffers will cry it into regression oblivion.
    I don’t get why someone can’t make an exclusive NBA game that does away with the mycareer type of stuff. I mean the NBA is popular enough to warrant a game dedicated solely to it, yes? Or is the league so boring now that not enough people will buy it if it doesn’t feature made up created players who drive golf carts to their hip hop studios.
    AIRJ23
    If you guys manually select to double a player, as well go into the other team’s settings to manually double team one of your players, will that work at least?? Because that worked in 2K21. If it doesn’t work in 22, while it worked in 21, looks like we officially have a game worse than 2K21.
    Also, is there a slider that controls or affects held D?
    We’re stuck with 2K21 forever, guys. No matter how good devs make this game, the online park curry slide paint sniffers will cry it into regression oblivion.
    I don’t get why someone can’t make an exclusive NBA game that does away with the mycareer type of stuff. I mean the NBA is popular enough to warrant a game dedicated solely to it, yes? Or is the league so boring now that not enough people will buy it if it doesn’t feature made up created players who drive golf carts to their hip hop studios.
    Lol... I havent even tried MyCareer just seen the commercials for it and all I can say is...wow lol
    But yea the scenario of changing the CPU settings seemed to be gone in 2k22. I even tried using two controllers. Im a keep testing to see what I can do to register the CPU helping more and sagging of bigs. I wonder if the defensive awareness slider has anything to do with helping.
    I've also upped the help defensive coaching slider to 95 and Zone to 75 but its seems like those do not do anything. Man I wish 2k would just explain some of this s*** or just come out and tell us which things do not work this year.
    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
    Man I wish I left my internet connection off so I wouldn't get any updates/patches, and play the game the way it was week 1. But the issue is I wouldn't get few of the necessary updates included in newer patches, nor the random 2k roster updates. I wish there was an option to choose if we want to upgrade to a newer patch, or choose separate options we wish to update from patches...only in a dream though and that will never be a reality lol.
    Despite being a video game and flaws...
    -All we want is a properly functioning Help D. That's all.
    rjohns23
    Lol... I havent even tried MyCareer just seen the commercials for it and all I can say is...wow lol
    But yea the scenario of changing the CPU settings seemed to be gone in 2k22. I even tried using two controllers. Im a keep testing to see what I can do to register the CPU helping more and sagging of bigs. I wonder if the defensive awareness slider has anything to do with helping.
    I've also upped the help defensive coaching slider to 95 and Zone to 75 but its seems like those do not do anything. Man I wish 2k would just explain some of this s*** or just come out and tell us which things do not work this year.
    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

    You’re kidding. The only thing that made 21 tolerable was being able to manually double players AND go into other team settings to double my hot players. 2K22 really can’t do even that!???
    So they’re taking it from best to worst in one patch, huh.
    Do I find that Help D coaching slider in each team’s individual coaching settings?
    Might be time to maximize every players help D with global adjustments.
    Here we go. 2K21 PTSD all over again. Looks like I’ll be copying my maxed out 21 defense sliders into 22.
    Hahahaha this is hilarious because I played next gen and couldn't figure out why the **** this kept happening vs my brother at his place. But next day we were playing on current gen and this wasn't happening. Makes total sense. I was ****ing losing it
    arcform
    I don't know guys. I am seeing too many bigs hugging players at perimeter right now, playing on current gen. I really hope I am wrong, but it seems current was touched as well as next gen. If not, sure looks that way.
    I just noticed it myself.... ****... I guess I'm mixed in too now. How the **** do we turn off updates? I'm tried of years of this happening to us. This is why I keep coming back to the same things. GIVE US OPTIONS! We get undercut like this it hurts! A lot of us have been really happy with the game. I know I have.
    arcform
    I don't know guys. I am seeing too many bigs hugging players at perimeter right now, playing on current gen. I really hope I am wrong, but it seems current was touched as well as next gen. If not, sure looks that way.

    I think unfortunately you're right. :/
    Lack of help defense also screws the rebounding back up. 8 of the 10 players all standing at the 3 point line, while the computer dribbles back and forth trying to slide past you for a layup. No more gang rebounding like before. Now Bam Adebayo will grab 10 rebounds a quarter. Smh.
    But hey, got to make sure the competitive guys don’t give up corner 3’s
    alabamarob
    Lack of help defense also screws the rebounding back up. 8 of the 10 players all standing at the 3 point line, while the computer dribbles back and forth trying to slide past you for a layup. No more gang rebounding like before. Now Bam Adebayo will grab 10 rebounds a quarter. Smh.
    But hey, got to make sure the competitive guys don’t give up corner 3’s

    Does Bam have Hustle Rebounder? I know it was OP in 2K21, and tbh I don't know if he deserves it.
    You can check that for any player who gets too many boards in your games.
    VictorMG
    Does Bam have Hustle Rebounder? I know it was OP in 2K21, and tbh I don't know if he deserves it.
    You can check that for any player who gets too many boards in your games.

    Its not the badges. Before when there was help defense, the paint would be more clogged on those forced drives and cuts. So the rebounds were more spread out. Now its just the screen man, his defender, and whoever shoots the ball and their defender going two on two for every rebound.
    90 percent of 2k’s game is damn near flawless. When the help defense was active the game was more random like real life. The points, rebounds and assists more spread around, and there was a individual flow to every game. I really didn’t appreciate a lot of the great work that the Devs did on the offensive AI, right stick, post moves, and right stick defense until I saw it with good help defense. Then the vision of the game all made sense. When the help defense was right it all came together. Now that the game is really 2 on 2 most of the time since the 5 man defense is gone. A lot of the games feel the same, and are very predictable stat and outcome wise.
    The 24th Letter
    You're playing sim minded ballers on HOF right? Changes the dynamic and percentages a bit.
    Here's an example from a "comp player"
    https://twitter.com/SplashEdition/status/1442630815083638784?s=19

    This clip shows the ultimate issue to the problem. The defender in the right corner steps in to help. YOU DON’T DO THIS. Even Czar said help defense should come from the weakside. But it doesn’t. THAT is what needs to be fixed. It’s been an issue since the 360/PS3 days.
    I tried every slider combo I can do to help the computer stop me on Pick & Roll or Iso. I put my speed down, I put the CPU speed up to 100. Everything 100: Speed, Accel, Lat Quickness, Help D Strength, Def Awareness, Def Consistency, 100 Inside and Driving Frequency slider, 100 Layup Gather and Release ... I went to the CPU Coaching Settings and set everyone to double in the post and double on any drives. I think I was onto something, but I am not sure, I got stopped a few times - it felt like the out of box game, but then other times, it was easy. Then again, I was using my team (the Nets) and James Harden and Kyrie are dominant. I will try again with an average player like Collin Sexton or D'Aaron Fox (fastest player) to see if I have the same success.
    Luke Skywalker
    I tried every slider combo I can do to help the computer stop me on Pick & Roll or Iso. I put my speed down, I put the CPU speed up to 100. Everything 100: Speed, Accel, Lat Quickness, Help D Strength, Def Awareness, Def Consistency, 100 Inside and Driving Frequency slider, 100 Layup Gather and Release ... I went to the CPU Coaching Settings and set everyone to double in the post and double on any drives. I think I was onto something, but I am not sure, I got stopped a few times - it felt like the out of box game, but then other times, it was easy. Then again, I was using my team (the Nets) and James Harden and Kyrie are dominant. I will try again with an average player like Collin Sexton or D'Aaron Fox (fastest player) to see if I have the same success.

    Hey good to see I am not the only one who does this kind of testing, in regards to Kyrie, Harden, Collin Sexton, and Fox. At times I would even try Lavine. These guys are either very fast or super explosive when driving against defense on 2K. Great for testing when trying to see if an entire defense can be exposed.
    alabamarob
    Lack of help defense also screws the rebounding back up. 8 of the 10 players all standing at the 3 point line, while the computer dribbles back and forth trying to slide past you for a layup. No more gang rebounding like before. Now Bam Adebayo will grab 10 rebounds a quarter. Smh.
    But hey, got to make sure the competitive guys don’t give up corner 3’s
    To help with the rebound some I put the rebound slider to offensive 21 and defensive 20 for both user and CPU. This helped out some. I started seeing more tips and guards getting rebounds....at 50, KAT had 26 rebounds on me. 12 in the 1st quarter.
    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
    arcform
    Hey good to see I am not the only one who does this kind of testing, in regards to Kyrie, Harden, Collin Sexton, and Fox. At times I would even try Lavine. These guys are either very fast or super explosive when driving against defense on 2K. Great for testing when trying to see if an entire defense can be exposed.

    We need to keep testing, maybe with the movement sliders too - the Computer has to be able to recover fast. Also, we should try messing with the other sliders that compliment these star players:
    * Ball Handling slider for example, so ball handlers like Kyrie etc aren't as impactful.
    * Fatigue Rate: how often we use turbo, and exhert the player's energy. This will mitigate us (the user) from constantly trying to drive the lane.
    * Ball Security: works in hand with Ball Handling, make the ball tangible so the computer can strip you if you are reckless with the rock.
    * Sensitivity: crank this up and try and get any contact/collisions.
    Anything we can do to deter the user from exploiting the game.
    Luke Skywalker
    We need to keep testing, maybe with the movement sliders too - the Computer has to be able to recover fast. Also, we should try messing with the other sliders that compliment these star players:
    * Ball Handling slider for example, so ball handlers like Kyrie etc aren't as impactful.
    * Fatigue Rate: how often we use turbo, and exhert the player's energy. This will mitigate us (the user) from constantly trying to drive the lane.
    * Ball Security: works in hand with Ball Handling, make the ball tangible so the computer can strip you if you are reckless with the rock.
    * Sensitivity: crank this up and try and get any contact/collisions.
    Anything we can do to deter the user from exploiting the game.

    I agree...
    Ball Handling: I got mine at 0. Looks slower on 50 Gamespeed, so I have my Gamespeed at 70 so it does not look too slow. I also balanced out movement to include attribute sliders so it still looks smooth and not twitchy. I am seeing players drop the ball out of bounds on their own like in real life, without defenders nearby. Players pickup their dribble. Even lose the ball on very hard crossover or fancy dribble attempts. If a pass is a little off the player may also have to pickup the ball.
    Fatigue Rate: mine is at 50...but I went with Stamina at 0 and seeing many timeouts used per game...at least 5-6 per team with it set to Auto. I dont care about the gatorade symbol because players still play well. Timeouts are being taken even with big leads. I am seeing more scoring runs also.
    * Ball Security: I kept mine at 50 due to Ballhandling being lowered to 0. Also Defense seems to lower aggression if set lower. May be a current gen issue.
    * Sensitivity: mine is at 100
    xCoachDx
    This clip shows the ultimate issue to the problem. The defender in the right corner steps in to help. YOU DON’T DO THIS. Even Czar said help defense should come from the weakside. But it doesn’t. THAT is what needs to be fixed. It’s been an issue since the 360/PS3 days.
    It's being ignored that he has a fair point tbh..I guess because he's an online player..
    but I know all bets were off when Czar mentioned comp
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
    Damn I was wondering why I was scoring so easily now. Very disheartening. 2k is so smart…gives us a month of fantastic gameplay so all us simheads pay up and then patch our asses back to the dreary days of 2k21. I hope hope hope they patch in defensive settings adjustments as it seems the obvious fix to appease both warring factions.
    The 24th Letter
    It's being ignored that he has a fair point tbh..I guess because he's an online player..
    but I know all bets were off when Czar mentioned comp
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

    I don’t get what comp has to do with anything. The rotations aren’t being implemented correctly to begin with. It’s not a play now or a comp issue, it’s a basketball issue. I don’t know how correct implementation is bad for anyone.
    Is comp the MyTeam crowd I assume?
    can it be confirmed that my park online complaints led to a change in the defensive ai that did indeed negatively affected the offline sim experience? :signball:
    A shame they took away the help defense. I was beginning to think 2k22 was gonna be in my gaming rotation for the long haul, rather than just a game I put down when the nba games start, like it has been the last several years. It felt like every play-now game had an authentic feel and that’s not the case anymore with the reversion of the help defense.
    Defensive awareness slider gets cpu better on ball awareness (not biting on as many moves) and super fast closeouts and rotations. Be careful not to put too high though as it will eliminate the extra pass for open shots out of doubles on rotations. It Doesn’t fix the bad logic but it helps on these 2 things 100%.
    Just posting as I saw a few guys touch on rotations and scrambling..
    When sim guys like us on OS continually make the complaint threads about the defense at launch even though it was really good…… this is inevitably what happens……the arcade guys were already saying D was to tough so when we do it too this is sadly what we get which is why I said at the beginning to leave it alone cause gameplay is really good right now
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    strosdood
    When sim guys like us on OS continually make the complaint threads about the defense at launch even though it was really good…… this is inevitably what happens……the arcade guys were already saying D was to tough so when we do it too this is sadly what we get which is why I said at the beginning to leave it alone cause gameplay is really good right now
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    The logic was good at launch. The defense was tough but not realistic. But that could be fixed in sliders so no need to complain. Except if you are an online player. The unfortunate part is bad logic can’t be fixed unless they patch it and it can ruin a game and experience. Smh
    The problem is that there are so many modes with different complaints but changes made effect everyone but not everyone needs the changes that are implemented sadly.
    i genuinely don't understand how people remain so lenient and liberal about these kind of things that happen year after year. we're given a $60 and up to something like a $100 (if you want the 'lamborghini edition') product on release day with apparently 'good', 'acceptable' and according to some even 'great' help defense. cool, that's great (seriously). with that being said, the defensive settings menu doesn't work at all, or maybe very little but that's okay (no sarcasm) because the help defense is improved this year. fine. fair trade off i suppose considering 2k's track record... gotta pick your battles with this company. BUT THEN that's taken away in a silent update and we're probably going to be left in the dark about it without an explanation. not that we're necessarily entitled to one, but you'd think we would get one considering the history of this happening... every year.
    my two cents anyway, we'll see what happens.
    Go to scrimmage. Keep spamming manual pick and roll. Rarely does help come. The roller waltzes through the lane.
    There may be some logic recognising I’m not actually making the pass so need to send help, but I wish I did this at launch to compare.
    Question for everyone. I haven’t been able to play much since the last patch. But I do know ever since ACE was added that Vs the cpu to start a game there would never be any help and wide open drives with no help on ISO’s or PNR. But after the CPU 1st timeout help would then come as ACE made defensive changes. So my question is this happening all game long? Or are people just hopping into a game and seeing this early or playing without ACE on?
    vannwolfhawk
    Question for everyone. I haven’t been able to play much since the last patch. But I do know ever since ACE was added that Vs the cpu to start a game there would never be any help and wide open drives with no help on ISO’s or PNR. But after the CPU 1st timeout help would then come as ACE made defensive changes. So my question is this happening all game long? Or are people just hopping into a game and seeing this early or playing without ACE on?

    That’s a good question, I too haven’t played many actual games yet (mainly scrimmages) so I wonder if ACE affects the help D and other defensive adjustments
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    strosdood
    That’s a good question, I too haven’t played many actual games yet (mainly scrimmages) so I wonder if ACE affects the help D and other defensive adjustments
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    Ya, I mean it doesn’t help the user with settings not working correctly but at least the cpu could adjust properly I’m hoping?!
    Remember when Wang said to enjoy the game and that no nerfing of defense would come at least anytime soon? Remember when they claimed in the initial patches there were no gameplay adjustments even though clearly there were? Or when they said this game would fix the defense 2K21 faltered on? Or when Czar (who I feel bad for as clearly some bean counters are screwing up his vision and work) said truly nerfing the defense wouldn’t be possible as much of it is hard structured into the gameplay?
    I’d say 2K is one of the most dishonest companies I’ve ever encountered. But it seems more so that they’re just terrified of their own community. They won’t stick to their vision and culture us into formatting to their vision of the game. They cave and make the game a mess to try and appease parties shouting the loudest. And it shoots them in the foot. Because the parties who shout the loudest will go back to saying this game sucks because defense is too easy now (even though their complaints led to it becoming easy) like they did with 21.
    And then sim heads who previously worshipped the game now also will say it sucks. So 2K’s back to putting out a product nobody seems happy with (even if they play it).
    And worst part is, they advocate this culture of complaints leading to them bending to your will. So if you respond to their game with constant hysteria and disrespect, they’ll tell you they notice you and maybe will apply your wishes. Otherwise act cordially and respectfully (like MyNBA players) and they’ll ignore you until the one day they dedicate to your mode in the next year’s edition.
    Luke Skywalker
    I tried every slider combo I can do to help the computer stop me on Pick & Roll or Iso. I put my speed down, I put the CPU speed up to 100. Everything 100: Speed, Accel, Lat Quickness, Help D Strength, Def Awareness, Def Consistency, 100 Inside and Driving Frequency slider, 100 Layup Gather and Release ... I went to the CPU Coaching Settings and set everyone to double in the post and double on any drives. I think I was onto something, but I am not sure, I got stopped a few times - it felt like the out of box game, but then other times, it was easy. Then again, I was using my team (the Nets) and James Harden and Kyrie are dominant. I will try again with an average player like Collin Sexton or D'Aaron Fox (fastest player) to see if I have the same success.

    When you went into CPU coaching settings to double your players, did it at least work AT ALL? Any of the time? That’s an important factor in determining whether this game can even match 2K21. Because in 21 I was able to double my own players using the CPU settings and it did make the game feel more alive and competitive.
    vannwolfhawk
    Question for everyone. I haven’t been able to play much since the last patch. But I do know ever since ACE was added that Vs the cpu to start a game there would never be any help and wide open drives with no help on ISO’s or PNR. But after the CPU 1st timeout help would then come as ACE made defensive changes. So my question is this happening all game long? Or are people just hopping into a game and seeing this early or playing without ACE on?

    So to be sure. You’re saying that ACE (on) may be the best to get CPU to double us?
    Smirkin Dirk
    Go to scrimmage. Keep spamming manual pick and roll. Rarely does help come. The roller waltzes through the lane.
    There may be some logic recognising I’m not actually making the pass so need to send help, but I wish I did this at launch to compare.

    It’s clearly broken.
    At launch if I ran a pick and roll with 2 shooters on the weak side, the weak side corner defender would help and the other defender would play both if I got a clear path to the lane. The defender playing both would take the first pass to the weak side and the help defender would scramble to the open man.
    That whole ‘playing both’ seems to be completely non existent now, nevermind the weak side corner actually helping.
    vannwolfhawk
    Ya, I mean it doesn’t help the user with settings not working correctly but at least the cpu could adjust properly I’m hoping?!

    Doesn’t matter if it is before or after a timeout. Does not matter if it is the user or the CPU. They have gone back to 2k21 defense.

    They are huggin Capela outside the 3, and no one is helping on clear drives to the rim. This is very disappointing. This is HOF against a highly rated Heat defense.
    kwabalicious
    It’s clearly broken.
    At launch if I ran a pick and roll with 2 shooters on the weak side, the weak side corner defender would help and the other defender would play both if I got a clear path to the lane. The defender playing both would take the first pass to the weak side and the help defender would scramble to the open man.
    That whole ‘playing both’ seems to be completely non existent now, nevermind the weak side corner actually helping.

    Just played a game, and the 2 times help came on the drive, it came from the strong side corner one pass away.
    Here's an example. I don't mind this occasionally (as bad help D should be baked into ratings...i.e. bad teams should help incorrectly). But this was all I saw.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsnY1VuYkRA
    Early in the game's release, I was sure I was seeing the big defending the dunker's spot (Is that Okongwu, Rob?) be the help then the weakside corner bump down to help the helper. Not seeing that at the moment, and Im hitting instant replay after every drive to see exactly what is happening.
    alabamarob
    Doesn’t matter if it is before or after a timeout. Does not matter if it is the user or the CPU. They have gone back to 2k21 defense.

    They are huggin Capela outside the 3, and no one is helping on clear drives to the rim. This is very disappointing. This is HOF against a highly rated Heat defense.

    I hope czar responds to what he believes is going on in these situations……. I wish I would’ve turned my Internet off after release, the defensive logic was a lot better
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    Woeful. Really sad they did this. Doesn't give me any faith for future editions. Seems like they got their positive reviews and now time to get make those microtransactioners happy. Fifa time!!
    alabamarob
    Doesn’t matter if it is before or after a timeout. Does not matter if it is the user or the CPU. They have gone back to 2k21 defense.

    They are huggin Capela outside the 3, and no one is helping on clear drives to the rim. This is very disappointing. This is HOF against a highly rated Heat defense.
    Going to request folks try not to turn this into a war of comp vs. others discussion if at all possible because it serves no real purpose other than to howl at the moon. I think the general official stance should be that help defense from the corners was screwed up before the patch, and they just flat out fixed it the wrong way to this point as the band-aid option.
    The help defense in 2K has always been an issue -- it was still an issue before the patch just in different ways -- and it was course corrected now in a bad way to try and "quick fix" a bigger issue with strong vs. weak-side help from the corners and the long-term issues there overall. The problem morphs through the years between players recovering too quickly or botching one vs. two pass away and on and on, but the help defense is always a point of contention.
    That being said, yes I would agree they made defense worse for all crowds with this change, which is again why I would say this was just a bad move regardless of what audience you fall into. I don't see any sect like praising the change in a huge majority way -- at least among the 5-on-5 crowd. There may be some portions of the MyPlayer community I'm missing in some way, but I don't see why this change would really help those online very much unless they're running with lots of AI teammates.
    By all means, keep posting examples and other things you're looking at on this topic since it's helpful to show off the issues and what's being tested, but pre-patch the issues were not just impacting "comp" players etc. with the problem here. It was an easy exploit offline as well if you wanted it to be. This isn't to say that you couldn't play solid defense before patch either, because in general scoring is down vs. last year, but you could still weasel these opportunities if you wanted. Now it's just more obvious where the issue is since it's right on ball once the point of attack gets broken down.
    (And alabamarob, my buddy and pal, you know this isn't really a "blame the comp people for whining issue" at the end of the day since we've talked many times about how a lot of this goes back to individual settings being the core issue here since you can't modify the defense how you see fit -- and comp players would love if those individual settings worked just as much as we would -- thus you're at the mercy of how 2K tweaks help defense on a global level, which is the biggest problem here anyway. Use your immense powers for good, not to whine about XYZ players whining as the scapegoat option since it just lets 2K off the hook for making a bad change for pretty much everyone -- plus, then it's just a double whine :) )
    Smirkin Dirk
    Go to scrimmage. Keep spamming manual pick and roll. Rarely does help come. The roller waltzes through the lane.
    There may be some logic recognising I’m not actually making the pass so need to send help, but I wish I did this at launch to compare.

    It was the first thing I did at launch. I gave up after about 10 tries of being stifled by the cpu and started running plays. It was glorious.
    ChaseB
    Going to request folks try not to turn this into a war of comp vs. others discussion if at all possible because it serves no real purpose other than to howl at the moon. I think the general official stance should be that help defense from the corners was screwed up before the patch, and they just flat out fixed it the wrong way to this point as the band-aid option.
    The help defense in 2K has always been an issue -- it was still an issue before the patch just in different ways -- and it was course corrected now in a bad way to try and "quick fix" a bigger issue with strong vs. weak-side help from the corners and the long-term issues there overall. The problem morphs through the years between players recovering too quickly or botching one vs. two pass away and on and on, but the help defense is always a point of contention.
    That being said, yes I would agree they made defense worse for all crowds with this change, which is again why I would say this was just a bad move regardless of what audience you fall into. I don't see any sect like praising the change in a huge majority way -- at least among the 5-on-5 crowd. There may be some portions of the MyPlayer community I'm missing in some way, but I don't see why this change would really help those online very much unless they're running with lots of AI teammates.
    By all means, keep posting examples and other things you're looking at on this topic since it's helpful to show off the issues and what's being tested, but pre-patch the issues were not just impacting "comp" players etc. with the problem here. It was an easy exploit offline as well if you wanted it to be. This isn't to say that you couldn't play solid defense before patch either, because in general scoring is down vs. last year, but you could still weasel these opportunities if you wanted. Now it's just more obvious where the issue is since it's right on ball once the point of attack gets broken down.
    (And alabamarob, my buddy and pal, you know this isn't really a "blame the comp people for whining issue" at the end of the day since we've talked many times about how a lot of this goes back to individual settings being the core issue here since you can't modify the defense how you see fit, thus you're at the mercy of how 2K tweaks help defense on a global level, which is the biggest problem here anyway. Use your immense powers for good, not to whine about XYZ players whining as the scapegoat option since it just lets 2K off the hook for making a bad change for pretty much everyone -- plus, then it's just a double whine :) )

    My intention was not to hate on anyone or blame anyone. I am a positive guy by nature. So if that is how it came off then my bad. I was simply repeating the explanation given for “cutter” help. Then when I found out it was just help defense in general I was surprised. No beef with the My Career or “comp” guys. I won’t mention that phrase anymore. Ha
    alabamarob
    My intention was not to hate on anyone or blame anyone. I am a positive guy by nature. So if that is how it came off then my bad. I was simply repeating the explanation given for “cutter” help. Then when I found out it was just help defense in general I was surprised. No beef with the My Career or “comp” guys. I won’t mention that phrase anymore. Ha

    All gravy baby (also I embedded your video in the first post in the thread. I may also just make this thread a news post next week at some point if 2K doesn't make a further tweak.)
    I would add an addendum to say the people who do like this change would be those who just wanted to play offline MyTeam stuff like last year, which was just call pick and roll and then profit. So if anyone maybe is happy with this tweak it would be the "casual" crowd or those who just want to turn their brain off and do the same 1-2 things every time down the court with a pick and roll. There were some exploits you could do against the AI to get your constant corner open 3s, but that took a smidge more effort than just dribbling up and pressing pick and roll button every time.
    AIRJ23
    When you went into CPU coaching settings to double your players, did it at least work AT ALL? Any of the time? That’s an important factor in determining whether this game can even match 2K21. Because in 21 I was able to double my own players using the CPU settings and it did make the game feel more alive and competitive.
    So to be sure. You’re saying that ACE (on) may be the best to get CPU to double us?

    No, I’m not sure it’s because of ACE. But I get doubled a ton in post or on permeter a ton if hot. But I’m playing with an edited roster.
    alabamarob
    Doesn’t matter if it is before or after a timeout. Does not matter if it is the user or the CPU. They have gone back to 2k21 defense.

    They are huggin Capela outside the 3, and no one is helping on clear drives to the rim. This is very disappointing. This is HOF against a highly rated Heat defense.

    Gotcha… that sucks… I saw your video. Good examples for them to see… that stepback create space move you can help d stop btw with upping the cpu d awareness. I found that out by trying to find a stop for the cpu for it as it was way to easy to explode out of it against cpu. Borderline cheese.
    So, I guess it’s just wait for the next patch. Hopefully it’s before the season starts. I’m so over the constant changes every update where the game changes and constantly have to redo sliders.
    Initially, the base of a good D was really there. At times it was great. Something has happened.
    Playing the Hawks with Utah? Tell Rudy to let Capela roam. Sag off. be the primary help D by playing drop coverage. Tell your corners not to help as you have the Frenchman there.
    Or you choose to switch everything. You can choose where the help comes from if you get beat on the ball. You can base it on strong or weakside. Or choose help to come off the worst shooter on the weakside.
    CZar has explained how difficult this is, but it's nice to dream.
    At least this pre-patch/update/whatever showed the base is there.
    Until it wasnt.
    vannwolfhawk
    No, I’m not sure it’s because of ACE. But I get doubled a ton in post or on permeter a ton if hot. But I’m playing with an edited roster.
    Gotcha… that sucks… I saw your video. Good examples for them to see… that stepback create space move you can help d stop btw with upping the cpu d awareness. I found that out by trying to find a stop for the cpu for it as it was way to easy to explode out of it against cpu. Borderline cheese.
    So, I guess it’s just wait for the next patch. Hopefully it’s before the season starts. I’m so over the constant changes every update where the game changes and constantly have to redo sliders.

    I honestly think it is a bug or mistake. Past experience tells me that Czar spends a lot of time getting things right, and didn’t kill the help defense. I am going to guess when he removed cutter help, that it bugged the regular help on drives. The next roster update or patch will probably fix that.
    If just caught me off guard so.
    Additionally, I don’t have any cheese dribble moves. If there was one then I would use it since they run around and play chest to chest defense with every player at half court.
    The CPU is not giving up space so you should be able to drive at will against most guys. My drive success rate is trash on average. We do not need more aware and better on ball defense in this game. Please no.
    This is a video from el jimmy.

    You can see again the help comes from the strong side one pass away (Im seeing this a lot) but even then it's way too slow.
    I don't think a screen was registered as no contact was made. I dont think pick and roll help is a factor there, it's a straight line drive, with a slow rotation than came from the wrong spot.
    alabamarob
    I honestly think it is a bug or mistake. Past experience tells me that Czar spends a lot of time getting things right, and didn’t kill the help defense. I am going to guess when he removed cutter help, that it bugged the regular help on drives. The next roster update or patch will probably fix that.
    If just caught me off guard so.
    Additionally, I don’t have any cheese dribble moves. If there was one then I would use it since they run around and play chest to chest defense with every player at half court.
    The CPU is not giving up space so you should be able to drive at will against most guys. My drive success rate is trash on average. We do not need more aware and better on ball defense in this game. Please no.

    Lol!
    Ya I agree I think it will get fixed but because of threads like this with video evidence that is helpful. BTW, I do believe I saw a czar video where he said the cutter help and drive help are coded completely seperate.
    I agree with dribble moves being able to beat guys especially how they did out of the box d. But I could do a cross right to left, create space like you do in the video, then explode cross back to right. I could do it 100% and beat cpu. That’s how I went down a slider rabbit hole for the cpu to stop it at least 50% of the time. Because we still need counter moves to work just not at 100% of time. But we aren’t comparing apples to apples with sliders so our experiences are also probably different. For example My sliders don’t have stone walls. More freedom of movement and hip rides.
    Yep, the hip rides are great, when's there's some backside help. But if there's none it's basically the defender escorting you in for a mildly contested lay up.
    Smirkin Dirk
    Yep, the hip rides are great, when's there's some backside help. But if there's none it's basically the defender escorting you in for a mildly contested lay up.

    Ya I didn’t have that problem before so I could do that and I haven’t played post patch barely at all yet. I’m vicariously living through you guys and your videos as I’m out of town. I’ll be back in slider rabbit hole h*** upon my return. Lol
    But no sliders can fix this problem clearly.
    Ok I’m genuinely confused. What’s the latest ps5 update for this game end in… 7? I’m reading about this bad D now and I’m not seeing it. Is it just with certain play calls or pick n rolls? I just played a quarter in my franchise with my expansion team vs the Cavs. Now I should say I use auto playcalling and don’t use manual pick n roll. I purposely tried to beat my man off the dribble one in one using turbo and couldn’t do it at all. I don’t see a difference in the D? Do I have the latest update?
    Some more examples. In this one, obviously Bam should bump down. Not sure if that tech is still built in fro the OG era that a player has to be looking to help, but he's clearly looking and doesn't move. The

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbrZM6-XCQs
    This one is interesting. Manual pick and roll. for some reason Lowry helps (late) and not Tucker who had the better angle and was closer. However you did see some help the helper so that is still in there.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3q6cGSrGRY
    This one is pretty bad. I get the mismatch on the slow big. Get past him (this is a big improvement. They no longer move like prime Hakeem IMO). But...2 of the highest IQ defenders in the league forget any concept of help D.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKIURFTTxUc
    NYJin2011tm
    Ok I’m genuinely confused. What’s the latest ps5 update for this game end in… 7? I’m reading about this bad D now and I’m not seeing it. Is it just with certain play calls or pick n rolls? I just played a quarter in my franchise with my expansion team vs the Cavs. Now I should say I use auto playcalling and don’t use manual pick n roll. I purposely tried to beat my man off the dribble one in one using turbo and couldn’t do it at all. I don’t see a difference in the D? Do I have the latest update?

    I don’t think there is that much difference in on ball defence. But the lack of help defence on blow byes to the rim. And it’s mostly noticeable on manual pick and rolls. I think the help defence at release was still a bit underwhelming but it’s gotten worse with the “cutter help” patch. Be nice if the help defence slider worked.
    Can someone tell me how to find the coaching sliders to raise Help D on? Even though I know it doesn’t work. Can’t seem to find it.
    AIRJ23
    Can someone tell me how to find the coaching sliders to raise Help D on? Even though I know it doesn’t work. Can’t seem to find it.
    Coaches settings.... I think
    Right now the defensive players are too concerned about non-ball perimeter threats and don’t adjust to ball threats, specifically when they have a clear path to the basket.
    In these next two clips you will see lousy D by me lol. I have a mismatch in the first clip so I double down and my cpu teammates rotate beautifully for the next pass. I am picking my nose and don’t leave the Paint. https://twitter.com/rudyjuly2/status/1444608375380234240?s=21
    In this second clip I get screened and run out and blow my assignment. My teammate Jerami Grant has help position but is far more concerned about a potential pass to the top of the circle. Wtf are you doing here Jerami? Stop the ball!
    https://twitter.com/rudyjuly2/status/1444652763770761225?s=21
    alabamarob
    I honestly think it is a bug or mistake. Past experience tells me that Czar spends a lot of time getting things right, and didn’t kill the help defense. I am going to guess when he removed cutter help, that it bugged the regular help on drives. The next roster update or patch will probably fix that.

    This is exactly what I'm hoping, as cutter help was all Czar was discussing, and thats the system that was being exploited and creating the issue. There was absolutely no need to seemingly turn all other help systems (tagging the roller, weakside playing 2, weakside rotation, drive help and rotate) off or back to essentially how it was in 2k21. So I'm hoping this was a mistake as at this point I'm done with this game for the time being. I'm not interested in just being focused on winning a 1v1 battle with the AI on ball defender everytime down or trying to make sure my league mates limit themselves from just "R2, square"ing for an easy layup with no help every other bucket.
    In the future, I would really hope that 2k focused more on basketball solutions such as addressing passing rather than removing promising team defense actions. I'm sure many non 5 v 5 NBA gamers would hate this but if you weren't able to "dot" the corner, and that pass would rather have a little bit more loft to it as it does irl, that would also help alleviate that exploit as well.
    Great posts fellas!
    Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm playing College in MyCareer and the rotations seem to be pre patch like. Going to try and get some footage.
    EDIT: Nevermind, lol
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
    rudyjuly2
    This isn’t really help D tho. They decide to double and then rotate beautifully off ball. The game has good rotations. But help defenders appear clueless on blow byes and that’s the big issue imo.

    Only thing that needs to happen in the double team rotations is the weakside corner defender needs to go somewhere too. Either step all the way up and leave his current man open, or split the difference between the open guys and take whichever one the ball is thrown to. Not really any reason to leave the player open that is being left open. Especially with how easy it is to zip a skip pass out of a double team.
    Was there a update today? Defense seems a little better, maybe just placebo but I’m not seeing wide open lanes to the basket today near as often
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    alabamarob
    Nah. That is a double team. That is why I think it is a bug on the drive help. The rotations are still in the game, so there has to be a way for them to come back on drives.

    Da_Czar (@Da_Czar) Tweeted:
    @bb8_tech @NBA2K @Beluba Nothing changed in the patch. I’m looking into whatever this maybe.
    loso_34
    Da_Czar (@Da_Czar) Tweeted:
    @bb8_tech @NBA2K @Beluba Nothing changed in the patch. I’m looking into whatever this maybe.

    Sounds like a bug. That tweet is encouraging
    Wish folks would be detailed when they have a devs attention like that.
    Czar said he was looking into Double Teams this weekend so hopefully he was able to touch all of this as well.
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
    The 24th Letter
    Wish folks would be detailed when they have a devs attention like that.
    Czar said he was looking into Double Teams this weekend so hopefully he was able to touch all of this as well.
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

    I just saw your interaction with czar on Twitter. It’s to bad that interaction isn’t here as I’m not sure how many people use Twitter to post feedback from sim community? Hard to put examples in 160 words. But maybe we need to get Arob on Twitter (If he’s not already lol). Or someone to link this thread to him with all the video examples. If I hadn’t looked I’d have had no idea there was even a back & forth going on with a Dev. But I’m old so I have never really got behind the whole social media thing.
    vannwolfhawk
    I just saw your interaction with czar on Twitter. It’s to bad that interaction isn’t here as I’m not sure how many people use Twitter to post feedback from sim community? Hard to put examples in 160 words. But maybe we need to get Arob on Twitter (If he’s not already lol). Or someone to link this thread to him with all the video examples. If I hadn’t looked I’d have had no idea there was even a back & forth going on with a Dev. But I’m old so I have never really got behind the whole social media thing.

    has nothing to do with your Age. i just turned 30 and my opinion of several social Media platforms Ranges from "i dont understand it" to "i absolutely hate it"
    to Bad that Twitter seems to be the Main way of game Feedback nowadays.... people like da_czar being the absolute exception as He seems to read and sometimes even posts on OS.
    vannwolfhawk
    I just saw your interaction with czar on Twitter. It’s to bad that interaction isn’t here as I’m not sure how many people use Twitter to post feedback from sim community? Hard to put examples in 160 words. But maybe we need to get Arob on Twitter (If he’s not already lol). Or someone to link this thread to him with all the video examples. If I hadn’t looked I’d have had no idea there was even a back & forth going on with a Dev. But I’m old so I have never really got behind the whole social media thing.
    I don't tweet a lot, but Twitter is a good resource.
    I try not to bombard Czar or anyone else with too much stuff like this because they have lives too and everything....but when they are engaging, and Czar has been a lot this year, I try to be direct in whats needed...he already has to wade through through enough nonsense. Less "make it like it was!", more "Here's the issue"
    There is definitely a lot of sim representation on Twitter...in many different modes. I'm always talking about doing a better job of supporting them.
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
    The 24th Letter
    You're playing sim minded ballers on HOF right? Changes the dynamic and percentages a bit.
    Here's an example from a "comp player"
    https://twitter.com/SplashEdition/status/1442630815083638784?s=19
    I get both sides of the conversation in the comments.
    Even for someone like me who loves playing on ball for the most part to keep the offense honest, I know I have to manually rotate on some situations. Thing is that help would trigger when when the AI interprets a toe behind the defender as "open" and helps down.
    I really do understand that decision as well though, and how it translates in HUM vs. CPU games. At the end of the day, I believe It all comes down to being able to adjust individual settings.
    but it's definitely not a pure comp complaint IMO. I just don't know what the answer is.
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

    If buddy is gonna play offball, he may wanna pick the proper defender to use. The defender he is using isnt the correct one in a situation like this. Ill give up that corner all day.
    vannwolfhawk
    I just saw your interaction with czar on Twitter. It’s to bad that interaction isn’t here as I’m not sure how many people use Twitter to post feedback from sim community? Hard to put examples in 160 words. But maybe we need to get Arob on Twitter (If he’s not already lol). Or someone to link this thread to him with all the video examples. If I hadn’t looked I’d have had no idea there was even a back & forth going on with a Dev. But I’m old so I have never really got behind the whole social media thing.

    For what its worth i sent Czar a message with a link to this thread earlier this morning!
    https://twitter.com/gknjr007/status/1444639559963320322?s=19
    Smirkin Dirk
    I was watching Robs videos. He was playing on ball 90%.
    At the moment I have no faith and have to control the dropping 5 or primary help d.

    I think he is referring to another person's youtube. Not our videos.
    I didn't really have a problem with corner 3's pre patch like that. Hell users are hitting 3's all over the court even contested.
    I make pre adjustments at the begin of every game and I also turn off ACE for defense. I was noticing that my defender would come down to defend the roll/drive but would quickly retreat to close out to the shooter if it was passed to them for a contest which would some times result in a shooting foul. Much more realistic IMO.
    bls
    I didn't really have a problem with corner 3's pre patch like that. Hell users are hitting 3's all over the court even contested.
    I make pre adjustments at the begin of every game and I also turn off ACE for defense. I was noticing that my defender would come down to defend the roll/drive but would quickly retreat to close out to the shooter if it was passed to them for a contest which would some times result in a shooting foul. Much more realistic IMO.

    That was my experience also. That corner 3 was not a problem.
    alabamarob
    That was my experience also. That corner 3 was not a problem.

    I thought the biggest issue with the corner 3 was in 5 out. I’m not sure how much the CPU runs that compare to a user.
    This is a tricky topic but i'll try to break it down for you guys as I was pretty heavily involved in the conversations on Twitter about this before the change was made.
    The comp my team guys like to play "bait" defense, where they take an offball defender and stunt or roam areas of the court to get passing lane steals etc. Well this baiting/being out of position was causing the offense to cut frequently thus causing the "cutter help" to trigger as well. The comp guys would be in front of their man to steal the pass but the other corner defender would still come to help. Because the A.I. read the backdoor cutter as being open.
    This is tricky because the comp guys have developed this style of play over the past few years and the cutter help was punishing them for it. I argued on Twitter that they could just try to keep everything in front of them on defense but this went against the habits they've built over the past few years of 2K.
    Czar was in a tough position because on one hand, the comp players are playing in tourneys for a lot of money. Some of these guys are NBA 2K League players as well, so their voices are really loud. Czar said that there's is no individual setting that can be tweaked in game to the user's preference. With the comp community complaining about it so loudly, he kinda had to make the change.
    The comp 5v5 philosophy is to bait passing lane steals and give up 2's over 3's. The cutter help was causing a lot of help defenders dropping from the corner and leaving the open 3. I tried to get some of them to understand that their playstyle on defense was causing that to happen more often than it should.....but they weren't really hearing it.
    Czar did what he had to do at the end of the day. It does suck for the SIM community because we want real basketball as much as possible but not everyone in this 2K community wants the same. The 2K community has become a gaming community now rather than a basketball community.
    Clips like this pre-update really showed the beauty of how the cutter help defense was at the start of 2K22.
    EarvGotti
    This is a tricky topic but i'll try to break it down for you guys as I was pretty heavily involved in the conversations on Twitter about this before the change was made.
    The comp my team guys like to play "bait" defense, where they take an offball defender and stunt or roam areas of the court to get passing lane steals etc. Well this baiting/being out of position was causing the offense to cut frequently thus causing the "cutter help" to trigger as well. The comp guys would be in front of their man to steal the pass but the other corner defender would still come to help. Because the A.I. read the backdoor cutter as being open.
    This is tricky because the comp guys have developed this style of play over the past few years and the cutter help was punishing them for it. I argued on Twitter that they could just try to keep everything in front of them on defense but this went against the habits they've built over the past few years of 2K.
    Czar was in a tough position because on one hand, the comp players are playing in tourneys for a lot of money. Some of these guys are NBA 2K League players as well, so their voices are really loud. Czar said that there's is no individual setting that can be tweaked in game to the user's preference. With the comp community complaining about it so loudly, he kinda had to make the change.
    The comp 5v5 philosophy is to bait passing lane steals and give up 2's over 3's. The cutter help was causing a lot of help defenders dropping from the corner and leaving the open 3. I tried to get some of them to understand that their playstyle on defense was causing that to happen more often than it should.....but they weren't really hearing it.
    Czar did what he had to do at the end of the day. It does suck for the SIM community because we want real basketball as much as possible but not everyone in this 2K community wants the same. The 2K community has become a gaming community now rather than a basketball community.
    Clips like this pre-update really showed the beauty of how the cutter help defense was at the start of 2K22.
    With all that said. I really don't care about the comp players. I care about smart and real NBA basketball. That video of the guy dropping when Wilt had it under control. That **** should never happen. I don't know why anyone would think that's the correct rotation.
    Good explanation Earv!
    That’s exactly what I was saying earlier. So many game modes and different styles of playing this game and changes needed to 1 mode unfortunately effect another where it wasn’t needed. That’s why I wish these changes could be separated to only effect the mode where it needs to be implemented.
    vannwolfhawk
    Good explanation Earv!
    That’s exactly what I was saying earlier. So many game modes and different styles of playing this game and changes needed to 1 mode unfortunately effect another where it wasn’t needed. That’s why I wish these changes could be separated to only effect the mode where it needs to be implemented.
    Or give us the option to tell that guy not to drop lol
    EarvGotti
    This is a tricky topic but i'll try to break it down for you guys as I was pretty heavily involved in the conversations on Twitter about this before the change was made.
    The comp my team guys like to play "bait" defense, where they take an offball defender and stunt or roam areas of the court to get passing lane steals etc. Well this baiting/being out of position was causing the offense to cut frequently thus causing the "cutter help" to trigger as well. The comp guys would be in front of their man to steal the pass but the other corner defender would still come to help. Because the A.I. read the backdoor cutter as being open.
    This is tricky because the comp guys have developed this style of play over the past few years and the cutter help was punishing them for it. I argued on Twitter that they could just try to keep everything in front of them on defense but this went against the habits they've built over the past few years of 2K.
    Czar was in a tough position because on one hand, the comp players are playing in tourneys for a lot of money. Some of these guys are NBA 2K League players as well, so their voices are really loud. Czar said that there's is no individual setting that can be tweaked in game to the user's preference. With the comp community complaining about it so loudly, he kinda had to make the change.
    The comp 5v5 philosophy is to bait passing lane steals and give up 2's over 3's. The cutter help was causing a lot of help defenders dropping from the corner and leaving the open 3. I tried to get some of them to understand that their playstyle on defense was causing that to happen more often than it should.....but they weren't really hearing it.
    Czar did what he had to do at the end of the day. It does suck for the SIM community because we want real basketball as much as possible but not everyone in this 2K community wants the same. The 2K community has become a gaming community now rather than a basketball community.
    Clips like this pre-update really showed the beauty of how the cutter help defense was at the start of 2K22.

    The way these guys play, playing offball playing the passing lanes is what causes a lot of the issues they’re having. Now anybody can play the game however they see fit but to change the game to cater to them due to their play style is overwhelmingly disappointing and frustrating being that i pay my 69 bucks as well.
    So whatever it is they complain about you just change it because they play in a tourney for some money? So their say is louder.....Ok
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    Luke Skywalker
    Since I am not a comp player, and many of us on here arsnt, why should we buy 2K? Whats the point? Unplayable against the CPU. It’s ridiculous.

    Unplayable isn’t the word, but I’m using some house rules.
    bls
    The way these guys play, playing offball playing the passing lanes is what causes a lot of the issues they’re having. Now anybody can play the game however they see fit but to change the game to cater to them due to their play style is overwhelmingly disappointing and frustrating being that i pay my 69 bucks as well.
    So whatever it is they complain about you just change it because they play in a tourney for some money? So their say is louder.....Ok
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    Agree!! It's the logic that's terrible here.
    Make a fundamentally sound basketball game. Those who enjoy basketball will play and enjoy the game. There is no need for a “comp” crowd or “sim” crowd. Make basketball seems pretty simple but yet it’s so hard.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    EarvGotti
    This is a tricky topic but i'll try to break it down for you guys as I was pretty heavily involved in the conversations on Twitter about this before the change was made.
    The comp my team guys like to play "bait" defense, where they take an offball defender and stunt or roam areas of the court to get passing lane steals etc. Well this baiting/being out of position was causing the offense to cut frequently thus causing the "cutter help" to trigger as well. The comp guys would be in front of their man to steal the pass but the other corner defender would still come to help. Because the A.I. read the backdoor cutter as being open.
    This is tricky because the comp guys have developed this style of play over the past few years and the cutter help was punishing them for it. I argued on Twitter that they could just try to keep everything in front of them on defense but this went against the habits they've built over the past few years of 2K.
    Czar was in a tough position because on one hand, the comp players are playing in tourneys for a lot of money. Some of these guys are NBA 2K League players as well, so their voices are really loud. Czar said that there's is no individual setting that can be tweaked in game to the user's preference. With the comp community complaining about it so loudly, he kinda had to make the change.
    The comp 5v5 philosophy is to bait passing lane steals and give up 2's over 3's. The cutter help was causing a lot of help defenders dropping from the corner and leaving the open 3. I tried to get some of them to understand that their playstyle on defense was causing that to happen more often than it should.....but they weren't really hearing it.
    Czar did what he had to do at the end of the day. It does suck for the SIM community because we want real basketball as much as possible but not everyone in this 2K community wants the same. The 2K community has become a gaming community now rather than a basketball community.
    Clips like this pre-update really showed the beauty of how the cutter help defense was at the start of 2K22.

    Man, that’s infuriating. So we just lost basketball gameplay for a bunch of people who aren’t actually playing basketball.
    I wish someone would make a more boutique actual NBA game. ‘Cause 2K isn’t an actual NBA game if they’re sacrificing NBA gameplay for fake style gameplay. NBA is merely a means to advertise a game that doesn’t prioritize the NBA.
    You’d think the NBA is popular enough to warrant a game dedicated solely to the NBA aspect. But I feel like today’s NBA just doesn’t warrant the same enthusiasm it used to. Now the fashion surrounding it plays a bigger role. Ratings are way down while people just watch 5 minute highlights. Games are literal 3 point contests with relaxed defense, very little variety, and it’s just accepted (listen to Pop’s recent comments about the game being boring now and losing its beauty). This issue roots from the NBA itself. Most of us sim heads come from an era where basketball culture was about the basketball and the game was like war on court. Now most subjects surrounding the NBA are about *subjects surrounding the NBA* as opposed to what happens on the court. It’s all just frustrating.
    capp34
    Make a fundamentally sound basketball game. Those who enjoy basketball will play and enjoy the game. There is no need for a “comp” crowd or “sim” crowd. Make basketball seems pretty simple but yet it’s so hard.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    Because some communities don’t really care. Some of them don’t even understand the true-to-life nuances of the game—In short order: They want highlights.
    They want Fornite basketball, because it’s led them to “real life” success. The enthusiasm completely goes out the window once tourney funds are involved. They’re at the top of the food chain as far as 2K is concerned.
    loso_34
    Da_Czar (@Da_Czar) Tweeted:
    @bb8_tech @NBA2K @Beluba Nothing changed in the patch. I’m looking into whatever this maybe.

    We all need to be clear when we're saying what changed and when, the patch wasn't what ruined defense. It was a change tied to a roster update a few days prior. Whenever a patch drops it just draws out everyone's microscopes.
    Smirkin Dirk
    Unplayable isn’t the word, but I’m using some house rules.
    It's one thing to use house rules. But watching Rudy Gobert just hug guys and never want to leave his man and protect the paint. It almost like playing 4 on 5. Because he literally won't do the one thing he's really good at. Leave a terrible shooter.
    capp34
    Make a fundamentally sound basketball game. Those who enjoy basketball will play and enjoy the game. There is no need for a “comp” crowd or “sim” crowd. Make basketball seems pretty simple but yet it’s so hard.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    Huh?.... We have, I should say had a great game. They changed something that literally was a problem before. It's like we fixed a problem. But they us zero options or way out this situation. Like it said before. This hurts! I didn't play last year because of list of problems. This isn't a deal breaker. But my faith is slowly dying with these update roll outs.
    jeebs9
    Or give us the option to tell that guy not to drop lol

    See that’s the thing if we could control through settings it’s not a big deal. But settings don’t work properly so 1 or the other gets screwed.
    I know Chase said earlier don’t make this a comp Vs sim thing but in this scenario it is exactly what it seems to be. I like what someone else said earlier as we get punished for getting real basketball because other people choose to not play real basketball. That’s a problem!
    Mikelopedia
    We all need to be clear when we're saying what changed and when, the patch wasn't what ruined defense. It was a change tied to a roster update a few days prior. Whenever a patch drops it just draws out everyone's microscopes.

    Yes but they said that on an earlier patch or update and it 100% changed things.
    ForeverVersatile
    I had no clue you could do this https://youtu.be/2EhaLLtt4hQ
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    I never knew this either. Great share! I am going to have to toy with this, but it’s to bad we can’t get weakside corner help in some of those situations instead of strong side help. That’s why I want to toy with specific player help though.
    Like 24 said I liked some of the help and specifically where a guy would step up to play 2 when help came.
    Thanks for sharing…
    AIRJ23
    Man, that’s infuriating. So we just lost basketball gameplay for a bunch of people who aren’t actually playing basketball.
    I wish someone would make a more boutique actual NBA game. ‘Cause 2K isn’t an actual NBA game if they’re sacrificing NBA gameplay for fake style gameplay. NBA is merely a means to advertise a game that doesn’t prioritize the NBA.
    You’d think the NBA is popular enough to warrant a game dedicated solely to the NBA aspect. But I feel like today’s NBA just doesn’t warrant the same enthusiasm it used to. Now the fashion surrounding it plays a bigger role. Ratings are way down while people just watch 5 minute highlights. Games are literal 3 point contests with relaxed defense, very little variety, and it’s just accepted (listen to Pop’s recent comments about the game being boring now and losing its beauty). This issue roots from the NBA itself. Most of us sim heads come from an era where basketball culture was about the basketball and the game was like war on court. Now most subjects surrounding the NBA are about *subjects surrounding the NBA* as opposed to what happens on the court. It’s all just frustrating.

    A lot of the ratings being down is how political its gotten. People dont want to hear about politics watching sports and now you cant even get away from it with sports. Also the talent level is higher than ever before but the rule changes have favored the offensive side of the ball too much. Hopefully with them trying to get away form the silly fouls being called this year that will make it easier to watch. I am not having this lack of defense that people are talking about games seems the same to me has like a week or so ago and still loving the game.
    AIRJ23
    That’s dope, but unfortunately it doesn’t take care of the biggest issue which is getting the CPU to double us. If only there was a simple setting for that.

    So did the cpu stop doubling after patch as well?
    ForeverVersatile
    I had no clue you could do this https://youtu.be/2EhaLLtt4hQ
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    I had no idea about that either will have to give it a try.
    AIRJ23
    That’s dope, but unfortunately it doesn’t take care of the biggest issue which is getting the CPU to double us. If only there was a simple setting for that.

    They should add like a double team in the post and double team on the perimeter frequency sliders or something.
    Smallville102001
    A lot of the ratings being down is how political its gotten. People dont want to hear about politics watching sports and now you cant even get away from it with sports. Also the talent level is higher than ever before but the whole changes have favored the offensive side of the ball to much. Hopefully with them trying to get away form the silly fouls being called this year that will make it easier to watch. I am not having this lack of defense that people are talking about games seems the same to me has like a week or so ago and still loving the game.

    “Political stuff” has nothing to do with it. Ratings were in the gutter for years before that. MJ’s last finals is still the highest rated ever. What does that tell you. Fans have been saying for years that the non physical/non competitive gameplay is why they tuned out. Who wants to watch grown men flopping mid air in Oscar worthy performances to draw fouls cause they were breathed on too hard, or delaying games for 30 minutes to cry to refs. Far as I’m concerned, all the talent in the world can’t overcome rules designed to let any normie drop 30 a night with no problem. No hand checks, stupid 3 second paint rules on defense so softies can drive into wide open paint without a bruise or having to navigate around 7 footers clogging your path like before. It’s not exciting when everyone is behind the three point line and there’s no big “boss” to have to “beat” in order to score in the paint. True talent can’t be gauged with the offensive favoring coddling the league has now. Nor when defense is a forgotten art and considered non essential (how many guys today are considered amongst best in league when their defense is amongst worst of all time).
    The “politics” thing is a cop out to further an opposing agenda. It’s about the game. Has been for years. Look at any comment section in the last decade+. Writing’s been on the wall. Who wants to watch 2 hours of wide open or step back threes? It’s boring, like Pop said. I still watch full old school games all the time. New games I just catch the highlights. It’s no wonder today’s pre teens who direct where 2K goes are uninterested in the nuances of actual basketball.
    vannwolfhawk
    So did the cpu stop doubling after patch as well?

    I cringe to say I’ve been told it has. Haven’t tested it myself yet. Czar said they should “still be coming late to hot players” whatever that technically implies. Hopefully it’s just a bug as to why they’re not.
    I think the doubles are currently working well (could always be better) last night I played Mavs vs knicks solely to see if I could get away with exploiting the Luka vs kemba matchup.
    10 straight points of Luka bullying kemba in the post (too f***ING little!) and the cpu comes out of the timeout with doubles on Luka in the post.
    Later on after hitting step back isos and exploiting the pnr, they just started doubling him on the perimeter for the rest of the game - essentially trying to take the ball out of his hands.
    This game is so close gameplay wise to being dynamic and challenging, if we could just get the help d back I'll be in heaven.
    el jimmy
    I think the doubles are currently working well (could always be better) last night I played Mavs vs knicks solely to see if I could get away with exploiting the Luka vs kemba matchup.
    10 straight points of Luka bullying kemba in the post (too f***ING little!) and the cpu comes out of the timeout with doubles on Luka in the post.
    Later on after hitting step back isos and exploiting the pnr, they just started doubling him on the perimeter for the rest of the game - essentially trying to take the ball out of his hands.
    This game is so close gameplay wise to being dynamic and challenging, if we could just get the help d back I'll be in heaven.

    Ok good to hear! That’s what I had also been seeing a lot of before but had seen a few post otherwise hence my question.
    AIRJ23
    “Political stuff” has nothing to do with it. Ratings were in the gutter for years before that. MJ’s last finals is still the highest rated ever. What does that tell you. Fans have been saying for years that the non physical/non competitive gameplay is why they tuned out. Who wants to watch grown men flopping mid air in Oscar worthy performances to draw fouls cause they were breathed on too hard, or delaying games for 30 minutes to cry to refs. Far as I’m concerned, all the talent in the world can’t overcome rules designed to let any normie drop 30 a night with no problem. No hand checks, stupid 3 second paint rules on defense so softies can drive into wide open paint without a bruise or having to navigate around 7 footers clogging your path like before. It’s not exciting when everyone is behind the three point line and there’s no big “boss” to have to “beat” in order to score in the paint. True talent can’t be gauged with the offensive favoring coddling the league has now. Nor when defense is a forgotten art and considered non essential (how many guys today are considered amongst best in league when their defense is amongst worst of all time).
    The “politics” thing is a cop out to further an opposing agenda. It’s about the game. Has been for years. Look at any comment section in the last decade+. Writing’s been on the wall. Who wants to watch 2 hours of wide open or step back threes? It’s boring, like Pop said. I still watch full old school games all the time. New games I just catch the highlights. It’s no wonder today’s pre teens who direct where 2K goes are uninterested in the nuances of actual basketball.

    lol politics play a big role for sure. There are a lot of reason but I would say like half of it is likely politics. I believe ratings in 2020 went way down compared to just 2019 when things got way more political. We are now in a world where like unless you go off the grid you cant not hear about politics and Entertainment is supposed to be a time to have fun and just get away from real world issues for a few hours that will still be there later. I love sports and even how political things are makes me almost want to turn it off at times. There are a lot of people I have heard and people I have known who said they stopped watching because of how political its gotten.
    I also think the rule changes/refs have made it worse. NFL with ruffing the passer and illegal man down filed has favored the offensive side of the ball too much and made a ruff game more soft. With nba flopping and like not basketball like plays resulting in foul shots has made nba worse. I blame the flopping on Divac has he was really the first player to do it, and did it all the time, and got calls when he did it. If players can trick refs into getting a call why would they not do it? If NBA refs didn't suck and where not stupid enough to fall for it guys wouldn't do it. I hate hate the clear path foul role because it's just another rule that helps the offensive side of the ball. Also its gotten to the point where you can not foul a guy to like take away a layup because anything that is hard enough to take away a layup could be called a flagrant foul. So clear path foul is just like another way you cant take away a layup.
    Load management is also really stupid and soft. If a player is health they should play. Load management makes zero sense and could cost you home court advantage something that is important. The game was more physical in the 90s and guys didn't load management back then and on top of that guys are playing less minutes now days. I can remember when the top guys would play like 40-41 minutes a game. Now its like 36-37. Also Allstar break is longer and teams play less back to backs. Some people say well pace of play is higher now then it was in like early 2000's or 90s but its still slower than pace of play was in like the 80s and guys where not load management then either. So guys are getting more time between games and also playing less per game and yet they now need to sit out games for no reason lol.
    If I could do 3 things it would be bring back hand checking. Not let guys load management. Load management hurts because now you have some games where you have some many guys resting that now you are not getting to see star players playing. if its a bad team that has 1 star and they set out now there is like no reason to watch the game. Also make it so it's harder to get a flagrant foul has its crazy how soft the league has gotten with flagrant fouls. Trying to compare different periods and guys stats and such is hard for several reasons has a result too. Now days the rules favored the offensive side of the ball making it easier to score, but guys are also playing less minutes, and that takes a little bit of scoring chances away. Also FG % is important I mean if you can have a guy who gets 20 on 50% or a guy who gets 20 but on 40% you would off course take the 50% guy. With the rule chances it should make it easier to have a higher fg% but at the same time everyone shooting so many 3pt shots also hurts your fg %
    Smallville102001
    lol politics play a big role for sure. There are a lot of reason but I would say like half of it is likely politics. I believe ratings in 2020 went way down compared to just 2019 when things got way more political. We are now in a world where like unless you go off the grid you cant not hear about politics and Entertainment is supposed to be a time to have fun and just get away from real world issues for a few hours that will still be there later. I love sports and even how political things are makes me almost want to turn it off at times. There are a lot of people I have heard and people I have known who said they stopped watching because of how political its gotten.
    I also think the rule changes/refs have made it worse. NFL with ruffing the passer and illegal man down filed has favored the offensive side of the ball too much and made a ruff game more soft. With nba flopping and like not basketball like plays resulting in foul shots has made nba worse. I blame the flopping on Divac has he was really the first player to do it, and did it all the time, and got calls when he did it. If players can trick refs into getting a call why would they not do it? If NBA refs didn't suck and where not stupid enough to fall for it guys wouldn't do it. I hate hate the clear path foul role because it's just another rule that helps the offensive side of the ball. Also its gotten to the point where you can not foul a guy to like take away a layup because anything that is hard enough to take away a layup could be called a flagrant foul. So clear path foul is just like another way you cant take away a layup.
    Load management is also really stupid and soft. If a player is health they should play. Load management makes zero sense and could cost you home court advantage something that is important. The game was more physical in the 90s and guys didn't load management back then and on top of that guys are playing less minutes now days. I can remember when the top guys would play like 40-41 minutes a game. Now its like 36-37. Also Allstar break is longer and teams play less back to backs. Some people say well pace of play is higher now then it was in like early 2000's or 90s but its still slower than pace of play was in like the 80s and guys where not load management then either. So guys are getting more time between games and also playing less per game and yet they now need to sit out games for no reason lol.
    If I could do 3 things it would be bring back hand checking. Not let guys load management. Load management hurts because now you have some games where you have some many guys resting that now you are not getting to see star players playing. if its a bad team that has 1 star and they set out now there is like no reason to watch the game. Also make it so it's harder to get a flagrant foul has its crazy how soft the league has gotten with flagrant fouls. Trying to compare different periods and guys stats and such is hard for several reasons has a result too. Now days the rules favored the offensive side of the ball making it easier to score, but guys are also playing less minutes, and that takes a little bit of scoring chances away. Also FG % is important I mean if you can have a guy who gets 20 on 50% or a guy who gets 20 but on 40% you would off course take the 50% guy. With the rule chances it should make it easier to have a higher fg% but at the same time everyone shooting so many 3pt shots also hurts your fg %

    I agree with the basketball stuff, and yeah load management is another soft joke meant to coddle players. These dudes have load management, play less minutes, take nights off, have far more luxurious (read: not team bonding) travel arrangements yet get injured at record rate. Oh and that’s while playing in a league currently less physical than golf. It’s weak. When you condition a spoiled culture, you condition soft players who shatter like glass.
    But no, politics has nothing to do with it. Lots of.. umm other stuff happened that threw everything off in 2020. Many people already found the NBA boring enough. Who wants to watch with no audience? That’s why ratings further suffered. I know people who watched because they appreciated the political messages.
    Fact remains two things are at play: Games not as entertaining to many fans anymore (something the NBA themselves acknowledge as they try to bring back more defensive oriented rules sorely missing) and empty stadiums. Of course empty stadiums would further plummet ratings.
    Meanwhile The Last Dance was more popular than the last decade of the NBA combined. Again, what does that tell you.
    You highlighted the issues with the game yourself. It’s the game shifting the league’s culture.
    AIRJ23
    I agree with the basketball stuff, and yeah load management is another soft joke meant to coddle players. These dudes have load management, play less minutes, take nights off, have far more luxurious (read: not team bonding) travel arrangements yet get injured at record rate. Oh and that’s while playing in a league currently less physical than golf. It’s weak. When you condition a spoiled culture, you condition soft players who shatter like glass.
    But no, politics has nothing to do with it. Lots of.. umm other stuff happened that threw everything off in 2020. Many people already found the NBA boring enough. Who wants to watch with no audience? That’s why ratings further suffered. I know people who watched because they appreciated the political messages.
    Fact remains two things are at play: Games not as entertaining to many fans anymore (something the NBA themselves acknowledge as they try to bring back more defensive oriented rules sorely missing) and empty stadiums. Of course empty stadiums would further plummet ratings.
    Meanwhile The Last Dance was more popular than the last decade of the NBA combined. Again, what does that tell you.
    You highlighted the issues with the game yourself. It’s the game shifting the league’s culture.

    Yeah I don't get why guys get hurt so much and they have better medical to now days. Yes empty stadiums heart for sure but you would also think after basically 5 months with no sports because of the lockdowns that people would miss it more and that sports ratings would go up a lot more has a result but nope. So yeah going to have to disagree that politics play zero factor they do play a factor. It drove me nuts when they talked about a short offseason last year. They got a 5 month break because of the lock downs and then a few months for offseason and also played less games the last 2 years. So really they got like 2 offseason in 1 amount of rest. So if anything guys should be like crazy fresh right now.
    Smallville102001
    Yeah I don't get why guys get hurt so much and they have better medical to now days. Yes empty stadiums heart for sure but you would also think after basically 5 months with no sports because of the lockdowns that people would miss it more and that sports ratings would go up a lot more has a result but nope. So yeah going to have to disagree that politics play zero factor they do play a factor. It drove me nuts when they talked about a short offseason last year. They got a 5 month break because of the lock downs and then a few months for offseason and also played less games the last 2 years. So really they got like 2 offseason in 1 amount of rest. So if anything guys should be like crazy fresh right now.

    Oh I agree with that off season part. What “short off season?!” Lmao. They had nearly an entire season off and then a shortened season. Dudes used to play battle basketball with far less luxuries and go 40 mins a night on 82 games a season. Many back to back games.
    Humans will rise up to the challenge when faced with a challenge. You coddle them and they play at a lower level while conditioning poorly enough to break at said lower level.
    AIRJ23
    Oh I agree with that off season part. What “short off season?!” Lmao. They had nearly an entire season off and then a shortened season. Dudes used to play battle basketball with far less luxuries and go 40 mins a night on 82 games a season. Many back to back games.
    Humans will rise up to the challenge when faced with a challenge. You coddle them and they play at a lower level while conditioning poorly enough to break at said lower level.

    Now if you want to say short offseason it would really be this offseason because the season is starting on time but last season end 1 month later than normal because of the late start but even then season was 10 games shorter. With the whole short offseason talk going into last season to and how it was really a longer offseason the bad teams that didn't play in the bubble got even a longer offseason lol.
    Smirkin Dirk
    Ah, what are we talking about?

    lol just about how nba has gotten more soft, and how they have made rule changes that help the offensive side of the ball too much lol.
    AIRJ23
    Can someone tell me where to find the Help D slider? I was told to look into the coach settings but see no such slider there.

    Did you look at the teams coach that you play has or the setting that has like time outs auto and such? I think it's in the team one.
    Smallville102001
    lol just about how nba has gotten more soft, and how they have made rule changes that help the offensive side of the ball too much lol.

    Its less dirty but its not softer. There’s an emphasis on skill.
    Smirkin Dirk
    Its less dirty but its not softer. There’s an emphasis on skill.

    I would say its both less dirty and also a softer game. Need kind of a middle ground. Like being able to close line a guy lakers and Celtics is not right lol but also calling like everything a flagrant foul is not right either.
    Smirkin Dirk
    Its less dirty but its not softer. There’s an emphasis on skill.

    Major disagree. Invisible defense and 80% of offense being 3 pointers or fouls isn’t skillful to me.
    Bring hand checking back and abolish the defensive 3 second rule. We’ll see the true level of skill. It doesn’t require much skill to score in paint that’s wide open.
    Hard to determine skill when rules are designed to make anyone able to easily score. The league has suppressed any notion of true defensive able to be played. I watched every series in the playoffs last year and so many games had a “park shoot around feel.” Giannis stepping up on the D side in his final games was some of the most intense NBA I’ve seen in years upon years.
    Smallville102001
    I would say its both less dirty and also a softer game. Need kind of a middle ground. Like being able to close line a guy lakers and Celtics is not right lol but also calling like everything a flagrant foul is not right either.

    Have you seen Malice at the Palace on Netflix?
    Man that league was INTENSE! That was true ball. You can feel the intimation of players before a game. You think that intimidation exists now? Lmao.
    Sports should be physical. Like battle. It’s what draws us in. It’s what makes winning rewarding. What makes the money truly worth it. Players used to go into games expecting to get banged up a bit. And yet the game was more beautiful as well with multitudes of styles being played. What’s the beauty in all threes and no mid range and paint designed to be open? Having 5 guys loitering at the 3 point like is supped to be “beauty?” Lol. All that and they went hard for 82 games like soldiers. Now? Can’t even make it through one playoff series.
    I’m not saying make it like the NFL. Simply stop the stupid soft foul calls and bring back hand checking and eliminate the 3 second rule on defense. Done. Jocik getting ejected for slapping a ball is pathetic and a testament to how soft the game is.
    When I play basketball, I feel far more serious about a game and I fear physical opponents far more. The soft game is yet another factor into how players are cultured into being softer overall.
    Smallville102001
    Did you look at the teams coach that you play has or the setting that has like time outs auto and such? I think it's in the team one.

    Dunno why I’m having so much trouble finding it.
    I wonder if Help D strength in the defensive sliders can help.
    AIRJ23
    Major disagree. Invisible defense and 80% of offense being 3 pointers or fouls isn’t skillful to me.
    Bring hand checking back and abolish the defensive 3 second rule. We’ll see the true level of skill. It doesn’t require much skill to score in paint that’s wide open.
    Hard to determine skill when rules are designed to make anyone able to easily score. The league has suppressed any notion of true defensive able to be played. I watched every series in the playoffs last year and so many games had a “park shoot around feel.” Giannis stepping up on the D side in his final games was some of the most intense NBA I’ve seen in years upon years.

    While another thing about like scoring is that more guys can shot now days and so you have to defend more of the court and by opening up more of the court that gives you more space to operate in. I can remember when centers and pf basically had no out side shot. So you would basically have 2 guys in the game that can't shot. Now you have maybe 1 guy playing that can't shot. If O'Neal played today I think he would dominate even more because 1 teams play smaller now and you can't put small guys on him. 2 you can't really defend him 1 on 1 and with how you have more shooters today you would pay even more if you did double him do it would be completely pick your poison. With defense today because of how athletic guys are and the rules you really have to be skilled to defend players to be able to keep them from getting past you.
    AIRJ23
    Have you seen Malice at the Palace on Netflix?
    Man that league was INTENSE! That was true ball. You can feel the intimation of players before a game. You think that intimidation exists now? Lmao.
    Sports should be physical. Like battle. It’s what draws us in. It’s what makes winning rewarding. What makes the money truly worth it. Players used to go into games expecting to get banged up a bit. And yet the game was more beautiful as well with multitudes of styles being played. What’s the beauty in all threes and no mid range and paint designed to be open? Having 5 guys loitering at the 3 point like is supped to be “beauty?” Lol. All that and they went hard for 82 games like soldiers. Now? Can’t even make it through one playoff series.
    I’m not saying make it like the NFL. Simply stop the stupid soft foul calls and bring back hand checking and eliminate the 3 second rule on defense. Done. Jocik getting ejected for slapping a ball is pathetic and a testament to how soft the game is.
    When I play basketball, I feel far more serious about a game and I fear physical opponents far more. The soft game is yet another factor into how players are cultured into being softer overall.
    Dunno why I’m having so much trouble finding it.
    I wonder if Help D strength in the defensive sliders can help.

    No I have not seen the Netflix thing. Like the Celtics Lakers close line type of thing I brought up you should not be able to do that's just flat out dirty but now days just simply going for the ball and you happen to hit the guy in the head is called a flagrant foul. That should be a common foul. A flagrant foul should be doing something that is truly dirt/trying to hurt a guy not trying to hit the ball and you just happen to hit the player hard.
    Smallville102001
    While another thing about like scoring is that more guys can shot now days and so you have to defend more of the court and by opening up more of the court that gives you more space to operate in. I can remember when centers and pf basically had no out side shot. So you would basically have 2 guys in the game that can't shot. Now you have maybe 1 guy playing that can't shot. If O'Neal played today I think he would dominate even more because 1 teams play smaller now and you can't put small guys on him. 2 you can't really defend him 1 on 1 and with how you have more shooters today you would pay even more if you did double him do it would be completely pick your poison. With defense today because of how athletic guys are and the rules you really have to be skilled to defend players to be able to keep them from getting past you.
    No I have not seen the Netflix thing. Like the Celtics Lakers close line type of thing I brought up you should not be able to do that's just flat out dirty but now days just simply going for the ball and you happen to hit the guy in the head is called a flagrant foul. That should be a common foul. A flagrant foul should be doing something that is truly dirt/trying to hurt a guy not trying to hit the ball and you just happen to hit the player hard.

    When I watch full games these days, I’m astonished by how many wide open drives and shots are given up. Coaches flat out say they don’t put much focus on defense. I dunno if it’s laziness, lack of defensive skill or the rules preventing even skilled defenders from defending well. But time and time again we see debates about the “best players in the league” where everyone concedes how nearly every player mentioned is horrible at defense. It’s nuts to me. Defense is 50% of the game (or should be).
    I’d hope to see the league bring back defensive oriented rules as opposed to offensive favoring rules. Let us see the skills on full display. And ratings would soar. The biggest mistake the league made was assuming fans watch only when scores are high. When history has proven the opposite if anything.
    ForeverVersatile
    I had no clue you could do this https://youtu.be/2EhaLLtt4hQ
    This is 90 percent of my defense. Ha. But, there is no icon specific help. There is random L1 help, and then there is player specific doubles. I have no idea why they won't give us the option of player specific help. His use of the cancel button is clever though.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    The 24th Letter
    This was in the game last year but I had no idea there were so many sub-options within it..
    Some of the backline rotations in this video are absolutely gorgeous.
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

    There are no options to it. But his understanding of who comes to help is new info to me. I thought it was random.
    Smirkin Dirk
    I thought L1 was just double team
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    Smh. Shame on you. I told you this last year.
    Alot of stuff hidden in this game. Same with throwing lob passes. You can only do that by changing passing options.
    alabamarob
    There are no options to it. But his understanding of who comes to help is new info to me. I thought it was random.
    Smh. Shame on you. I told you this last year.
    Alot of stuff hidden in this game. Same with throwing lob passes. You can only do that by changing passing options.

    Nup wasn’t me, I had to skip 21.
    Man. I’m playing my first full game on 22 and even with this patch making defense close to 21, it’s nowhere near as bad as 2K21 defense.
    AIRJ23
    Man. I’m playing my first full game on 22 and even with this patch making defense close to 21, it’s nowhere near as bad as 2K21 defense.

    If you really mess around with the sliders, particularly the Ball Handling, Ball Security, Dribble Sensitivity, and CPU’s ability to play defense (speed, lateral quickness, steal etc.) The game becomes a lot more competitive.
    For instance, I’m running a game right now: low score with atrocious FG%. 96 Bulls vs 96 Sonics. I’m currently in the 4th quarter; I am setting manual screens and its a lot harder to go around and accelerate towards the basket. Sometimes, I even lose the ball and it goes out of bounds (same for CPU).
    I’ve done other stuff like dropping Pass Speed to 40, and Hands to 65 whilst dropping Steal to 40. Play The Passing Lane slider to 70– it’s feeling like a way different game.
    Default sliders, you could carelessly dribble in traffic, there is no penalty for excessive dribbling. The CPU reaction is weak. If you really mess with the sliders, you can make a challenging yet strategic game for yourself. It might not be real, but in all actuality realism is an illusion— we just want a tougher CPU to play against.
    i.e. If you put the CPU’s Pass Speed to like 60, you’ll play a lot differently against each CPU, especially those who have the Bullet Pass badge. It changes your approach, and I think that’s the kind of stuff that we need in a game: it’s called variety.
    Luke Skywalker
    If you really mess around with the sliders, particularly the Ball Handling, Ball Security, Dribble Sensitivity, and CPU’s ability to play defense (speed, lateral quickness, steal etc.) The game becomes a lot more competitive.
    For instance, I’m running a game right now: low score with atrocious FG%. 96 Bulls vs 96 Sonics. I’m currently in the 4th quarter; I am setting manual screens and its a lot harder to go around and accelerate towards the basket. Sometimes, I even lose the ball and it goes out of bounds (same for CPU).
    I’ve done other stuff like dropping Pass Speed to 40, and Hands to 65 whilst dropping Steal to 40. Play The Passing Lane slider to 70– it’s feeling like a way different game.
    Default sliders, you could carelessly dribble in traffic, there is no penalty for excessive dribbling. The CPU reaction is weak. If you really mess with the sliders, you can make a challenging yet strategic game for yourself. It might not be real, but in all actuality realism is an illusion— we just want a tougher CPU to play against.
    i.e. If you put the CPU’s Pass Speed to like 60, you’ll play a lot differently against each CPU, especially those who have the Bullet Pass badge. It changes your approach, and I think that’s the kind of stuff that we need in a game: it’s called variety.

    Makes sense. I’m playing currently with a modified version of all star (basically rose every defensive slider to 50 that was under it, evened just about everything other than shooting to 50, and put fouls at HoF foul levels) and my first full game my custom MJ Bulls got destroyed by custom all time Pistons. So I redid the game by lowering the CPU shooting to 50 and raising my shooting to 54. Then the game got competitive. Once I was beating them, I evened us back to 52 shooting all around just like standard all star.
    So basically I’m playing on slightly harder version of all star now. And the game was super fun. Went to OT and I won. So I’m gonna try and stick with this as a basis until I get the hang of the game then work from there. Sticking to modifying shooting sliders if the CPU is too good or if I need them to be better. Then will move onto defense stuff.
    I found the defense MOSTLY good. Obviously better than 2K21. But I did see some 2K21 moments where help D would run away from me instead of guard me. Switching and IQ is generally ahead of 21.
    MJ DID get doubled late in the game and they even forced a turnover at a clutch moment. That was great. Doubles seem solid. I wouldn’t mind seeing a lot more of it, both post (definitely post) and perimeter.
    If they fix the help D, the game will be complete. Right now the CPU feels “alive” until you see them stand around and all opposing players not only give you wide open lanes, but actually run away from you as if they’re trying to throw the game because they bet on the other team. That’s an immersion breaker to say the least.
    I also lowered drive tendencies for most players who had it at 99 and rose contested mid range tendencies for current players (classic players don’t need it as they have good mid range tendencies) by 20-30 points. It’s made a huge difference in opening the game up.
    OH. Best part is, I was studying up on player stats to get tendencies right. Never knew Bill Lambeer was a damn near a sharpshooter. Dude shot nearly .900 FT% and didn’t take many threes, but one year he averaged 2 per game and shot .361%. For a big man in the 80’s when they weren’t expected to shoot.
    I figure him in today’s NBA would be a weapon and would hoist lots of shots up. I rose his 3 point tendency from an inaccurate 0 to like 20-30 and he even hit a clutch three on it.
    Tendencies are what make this game. I hate to say it, ‘cause they’re a pain to manage (and they change every year in MyNBA making them an even bigger pain to manage). But lots of realism to unlock by modifying contested mid range jumpers for current players, three pointers for classic players, and drive tendencies for all players.
    Mikelopedia
    24, I'm assuming this was from today?
    If so I'm about to fire up the game for the first time in a week lol.
    Was that a manual PnR he was tagging the roller on or a playbook call?
    Yes, this morning, manual PnR
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
    There absolutely was a hot fix this morning.
    Just hit (or even had the opportunity to attempt) my first drive, kick, swing to beat the rotation 3 in 2 weeks.
    Thank you Czar!
    Still testing but its at least better than what it just was.
    Mikelopedia
    There absolutely was a hot fix this morning.
    Just hit (or even had the opportunity to attempt) my first drive, kick, swing to beat the rotation 3 in 2 weeks.
    Thank you Czar!
    Still testing but its at least better than what it just was.

    Great news! I’m glad Czar is on defense now…… he is awesome
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    Great news, definitely appears to be a change.
    When there's one defender on the weakside, he'll drop down if there's a threat to get into the paint.
    When there's 2 defenders on the weakside, the help unfortunately comes from the wing defender rather than the corner defender, but the corner defender is now playing both effectively so that it isn't so much of an issue.
    Not quite the fundamental help concept, but the game feels like it did several days ago.
    EDIT---
    The defender often isn't playing both in the two-man-weakside scenario but is at least stunting towards the open man. Most often the help defender will have to scramble back to his man if the ball goes weakside, but I did see an instance where they switched, which is encouraging.
    vannwolfhawk
    Throwback pass on a open backside lift because of backside corner help. Now that’s basketball! Was that from an update today? Go to work Arob!
    This was nice too....
    https://streamable.com/e529sf
    I like all the stunting and lane filling the CPU is doing now...was that in before?
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
    There are definitely certain situations that are still lacking as the post above describes when the weakside who is supposed to play 2 doesnt rotate, and I'm still able to get a few too many 1 on 1 opportunities at the rim, but there's no question it's better.
    I'd have to do more testing to see if individual help D ratings are factoring into any of these decisions. That would be awesome if it were. But at this point it overall feels like an ok compromise between our complaints and the more casual gamer complaints.
    Here is a great example of the lovely positives of where the system is now. See Duncan recognize the pop man (Warren), but stay home on the corner while Jimmy is still engaged, all the while staying square to pop so that he can react quickly to the pass, Jimmy rotates to the corner, I force baseline, Bam steps up to force the mid range pull up, leaving me free to continue on to box out Turner. Whew, beautiful.
    100% on ball while I'm able to trust my teammates.
    https://youtu.be/S19BJSXqIw8
    I'll add that Jimmy probably overhelped there as Sabonis was being rode right into Bam, but I'd rather see overhelp to protect the paint if the backside rotations are there
    The 24th Letter
    This was nice too....
    https://streamable.com/e529sf
    I like all the stunting and lane filling the CPU is doing now...was that in before?
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

    That’s nice too BUT I’d like to see the corner lift to scramble where the extra “one more” pass to the corner is needed. That’s basketball. That’s what we need more of is 1 more pass for corner 3’s. The initial rotation is fine but the scramble needs to be behind it there … The corner defender should have lifted to scramble for help on the wing opening up the one more pass to the corner and they X out to close on the corner 3.
    thanks for doing those videos though! Much better and encouraging after all that’s been said and shown in this thread. I figured it would be fixed soon but not this soon. Good stuff
    Mikelopedia
    There are definitely certain situations that are still lacking as the post above describes when the weakside who is supposed to play 2 doesnt rotate, and I'm still able to get a few too many 1 on 1 opportunities at the rim, but there's no question it's better.
    I'd have to do more testing to see if individual help D ratings are factoring into any of these decisions. That would be awesome if it were. But at this point it overall feels like an ok compromise between our complaints and the more casual gamer complaints.
    Here is a great example of the lovely positives of where the system is now. See Duncan recognize the pop man (Warren), but stay home on the corner while Jimmy is still engaged, all the while staying square to pop so that he can react quickly to the pass, Jimmy rotates to the corner, I force baseline, Bam steps up to force the mid range pull up, leaving me free to continue on to box out Turner. Whew, beautiful.
    100% on ball while I'm able to trust my teammates.
    https://youtu.be/S19BJSXqIw8

    I agree and there are 3 factors that can definitely help from my testing.
    1 - player help d iq attributes are low out of box. You can globally raise and you will see way better help.
    2 - Defensive sliders defensive awareness is huge for both on ball defense and scramble logic. Be careful not to put too high though or they scramble too good and fast. 65-75 is good 85 is super fast rotations.
    3 - Before every game I go and change user and cpu help defense slider to 85-95. It’s a slider for how often help d comes for that team. Most all teams are set at 50 and some are at 35. Meaning barely help at all.
    All of these will drastically help with help defense, rotations, and scrambles. Especially after double teams.
    Here's a great example of a bad mistake by the AI D.
    As Jimmy blows by, you would probably want Myles to leave Bam in this situation as he's in great position and the weakside has 2 shooters. Brogdon instead rotates over from the weak corner, but Warrens back is to Tucker and never rotates, so its an easy pass out of the triple team for a wide open green bean.
    Now, is that due to TJ Warren's poor help D rating (which is still better than Duncans in 2ks roster) or cause his back was turned, or simply cause the drive help system isn't as good as the pnr system when it comes to rotating?
    https://youtu.be/QSp_PL-UrKQ
    https://youtu.be/3ZJLdyWKbjw
    This is a PnR example of bad help from a 1 pass away strongside corner. This has always been a problem in drive help as well. Brogdon recognizes Bam as a threat, but rather than LeVert playing 2 with Lowry on the weak block, or even Sabonis sagging in and LeVert rotating out to Duncan if that skip pass happens, Brogdon runs away from the easy pass and even runs past the driving Jimmy to tag the roller. This action would have been appropriate if Jimmy drove left off the PnR.
    Just trying to post examples of everything I'm seeing, but I'm still much happier playing this version of 2k22 as opposed to my earlier stance of just throwing this crap away and waiting for 2k23 lol.
    AIRJ23
    Can someone tell me where to find the Help D slider? I was told to look into the coach settings but see no such slider there.

    I’m not in front of the game, but it’s not coach settings it’s coach sliders I believe under coach settings. Pause game, go to coach settings, 2nd from bottom iirc. It’s the 1st slider. Help defense (how often players will help). I always put at 85-95. It’s set to 50 for most all teams out of box. Some teams are at 35 which means they will very rarely help. I have asked for years to have this be a roster edit and 99.9% of people don’t use or even know about it and how it helps cpu and team defensive rotations. As is you can only change before the game and by switching controls quickly. I will switch to cpu before game and change as well as do this for my team. It’s a must edit before every game.
    vannwolfhawk
    I’m not in front of the game, but it’s not coach settings it’s coach sliders I believe under coach settings. Pause game, go to coach settings, 2nd from bottom iirc. It’s the 1st slider. Help defense (how often players will help). I always put at 85-95. It’s set to 50 for most all teams out of box. Some teams are at 35 which means they will very rarely help. I have asked for years to have this be a roster edit and 99.9% of people don’t use or even know about it and how it helps cpu and team defensive rotations. As is you can only change before the game and by switching controls quickly. I will switch to cpu before game and change as well as do this for my team. It’s a must edit before every game.

    After this morning's update, I'm interested to see what impact this slider has now. I'm like you I always have it 85 - 95 (100 in 2k21 as a bleep you essentially lol) but haven't messed with it yet.
    Mike, and Van being that I hate you guys (and 24th) I would:
    1) Ask that you stop confusing people with all this basketball lingo and strategy. Coach Bud is the worst coach in the NBA and he has a ring and coach of the year trophy.
    2) Ask that you guys put on the record if the help defense has been fixed.
    3) Put on the record whether or not I need to take down my video. If they have fixed the help defense. Then there is no reason to keep the video up.
    You all have 20 minutes to answer me. Ha.
    Seriously though. This all sounds like good news. I will get back on the game later today to check things out for myself.
    Dirk and Rudy? What are you all seeing?
    Hell I’ve been out of town in Vegas since the first of this month. Unplugged My PS5 before I left. I think I’m going to disconnect from the internet and just rock without the patch.
    Another good option (but an expensive one) is to get another console and another copy of 2K and just leave that one offline. I’m not brave enough for that one lol
    I believe they did more than just hot fix help D. For the first time since launch I’ve seen a CPU defended sag off a player who can’t really shoot threes.
    I had a Rasheed Wallace CAP guarding Giannis. When Giannis was at the top of the keep, CPU Wallace waited at the free throw line basically daring him to shoot.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    Kendall_Gilbert
    I believe they did more than just hot fix help D. For the first time since launch I’ve seen a CPU defended sag off a player who can’t really shoot threes.
    I had a Rasheed Wallace CAP guarding Giannis. When Giannis was at the top of the keep, CPU Wallace waited at the free throw line basically daring him to shoot.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    That makes me really hopeful. I played a quick couple minutes against the Bulls this morning after I say 24's post, but I didn't see the help defense (just waltzed into the paint with LeBron on a manual pick and roll), but maybe their Help D slider isn't high enough.
    VictorMG
    That makes me really hopeful. I played a quick couple minutes against the Bulls this morning after I say 24's post, but I didn't see the help defense (just waltzed into the paint with LeBron on a manual pick and roll), but maybe their Help D slider isn't high enough.

    I noticed this too when I passed to Blake Griffin earlier.
    alabamarob
    Mike, and Van being that I hate you guys (and 24th) I would:
    1) Ask that you stop confusing people with all this basketball lingo and strategy. Coach Bud is the worst coach in the NBA and he has a ring and coach of the year trophy.
    2) Ask that you guys put on the record if the help defense has been fixed.
    3) Put on the record whether or not I need to take down my video. If they have fixed the help defense. Then there is no reason to keep the video up.
    You all have 20 minutes to answer me. Ha.
    Seriously though. This all sounds like good news. I will get back on the game later today to check things out for myself.
    Dirk and Rudy? What are you all seeing?

    Lol! Man you aren’t lying as far as adjustments or lack thereof with Bud.
    I haven’t played yet still so from what I see from 24 and mike (and hear with the sag off in last post above) all that is great news.
    I was not trying to confuse anyone at all. Sorry if I was. I was just trying to let people know there are options available to us that go along with the thread as far as to help users experiences with getting the cpu AI to be smarter, help more, scramble and closeout faster or more realistically. 2k gives us the options to do so which is awesome. Most people just don’t know how to do it.
    As far as is it fixed? it looks good. I think you and others will still want the settings to work correctly though so you can scheme the way YOU want. If centers are sagging off non shooters that’s a HUGE plus and win as well. Can this be confirmed? Lastly, my last complaint would be what I posted earlier with X out scramble logic to allow the one more extra pass for corner 3’s. That’s what is open in real nba and is so satisfying when it happens in 2k. I wish we could do it more but that’s the X out logic. But I don’t want to get to picky here. I’ll take basic help and maybe down the road this makes its way in. That being said, I have seen it happen when I have edited the 3 things I named before. So I think it’s there to be had. Just not without edits yet.
    So I’d say the initial post and your issues seems to be fixed but we can still improve on some of the other defensive issues still. But that’s without me being able to play yet and just going off others video examples today.
    These type of things will keep happening until we get the individual defensive settings functional again.
    But leaving the strong side to help on a drive is something that definitely needs to be addressed.
    2k needs to continue to factor in distance and angles on skip passes to mitigate the “God View” issue
    A God's eye view is not a basketball problem, nobody on this planet has it, So we will never have a 100% basketball solution as far as coverage. Every point guards scouting report has a dedicated section to his individual blind spots off the P&R.
    That's not to say we can't continue to work on getting there.
    Everyone should take the time to watch this video by Da Czar at how this stuff is balanced.
    https://youtu.be/TUWonrvrhqw
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
    The 24th Letter
    A God's eye view is not a basketball problem, nobody on this planet has it, So we will never have a 100% basketball solution as far as coverage.

    I agree, but I think the idea is that if seeing the whole court at all times is inevitable for us as players, at least make skip passes less accurate for most of the players we're controlling. That's a relatively easy solution to at least mitigate the problem, and a very realistic one IMO.
    Manual passing is the solution for God's eye or at least would make these situations less automatic and more contextual and brings a lot organic turnovers or a skill into passing side, too; when creating these chances. That's how.
    Well, well, well. That man works extremely fast. No more waltzing into the paint versus the CPU, and your CPU defenders now help on drives again. Back to enjoying the game. Thanks to 24 or Earv or whoever put the bug in that man ear.
    I’m on the other side of the world do just had sleep now a day of work so to say I’m frustrated I can’t play is an understatement.
    Sounds like it’s fixed.
    Probably due entirely to this thread.
    What should we fix next? Climate change, racism, inequality?
    Maybe just the defensive settings.
    alabamarob
    Well, well, well. That man works extremely fast. No more waltzing into the paint versus the CPU, and your CPU defenders now help on drives again. Back to enjoying the game. Thanks to 24 or Earv or whoever put the bug in that man ear.

    Just watched your video on YouTube then was coming here to post and saw you posted this.
    The initial help is awesome. The drive and kick is awesome. But now the issue is how I stated previously and all these open 3’s will eventually be complained about. I also said from day 1 in numerous threads that the scramble logic has to be number 1. Then you can get the help to come and follow. It’s why as coaches 1 of the 1st drills we do to start a season is 3 on 4 scramble drill or 4 on 5 scramble drills and teach x’ing out and scrambling to close out under control and rotate to help.
    In this video numerous times the top guy never drops to help the helper and X out. The reverse could happen like in 24’s video where the corner doesn’t help on the wing throwback pass. They just stand there rather than rotating to X out scramble. So now we have a new issue.
    So, we are half way there as of now…
    vannwolfhawk
    Just watched your video on YouTube then was coming here to post and saw you posted this.
    The initial help is awesome. The drive and kick is awesome. But now the issue is how I stated previously and all these open 3’s will eventually be complained about. I also said from day 1 in numerous threads that the scramble logic has to be number 1. Then you can get the help to come and follow. It’s why as coaches 1 of the 1st drills we do to start a season is 3 on 4 scramble drill or 4 on 5 scramble drills and teach x’ing out and scrambling to close out under control and rotate to help.
    In this video numerous times the top guy never drops to help the helper and X out. The reverse could happen like in 24’s video where the corner doesn’t help on the wing throwback pass. They just stand there rather than rotating to X out scramble. So now we have a new issue.
    So, we are half way there as of now…

    Should not be an issue. Czar has that no help option that actuallly works. So if you don’t want to give up the threes you can just go to no help.
    VictorMG
    Why do you say that?

    Let me give a quick example. I brought this up to Wang in 2k12 when I was invited in to 2k studios. I was specifically asking for a pass speed slider which we later ended up getting. But he told me it’s not that easy because animations are tied into passes and pass speed. If they turned up or down pass speed, accuracy (at that time) it wouldn’t match animations. It wasn’t an easy fix.
    That being said they give us sliders for pass accuracy so anyone can set that however they want.
    I hate to be a broken record but scramble logic behind this and players help d iq help them rotate super fast to help alleviate the see all like robs video clearly shows us.
    alabamarob
    Should not be an issue. Czar has that no help option that actuallly works. So if you don’t want to give up the threes you can just go to no help.

    Ok so ACE adjusts your saying so it’s not open like that all game and the cpu will adjust and scramble?
    Or your saying for a user you can change it?
    The 24th Letter
    Sounds good in theory, hard as hell to implement.
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

    I have no doubt that it's hard to address, Czar said in one of his videos that passing is a very difficult system to work on, but I would imagine that complaining from the majority of the customer base would probably be as big of an issue as the technical hurdles.
    alabamarob

    Alot of stuff hidden in this game. Same with throwing lob passes. You can only do that by changing passing options.

    Rob what do you change to unlock the passing options?
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    AIRJ23
    When I watch full games these days, I’m astonished by how many wide open drives and shots are given up. Coaches flat out say they don’t put much focus on defense. I dunno if it’s laziness, lack of defensive skill or the rules preventing even skilled defenders from defending well. But time and time again we see debates about the “best players in the league” where everyone concedes how nearly every player mentioned is horrible at defense. It’s nuts to me. Defense is 50% of the game (or should be).
    I’d hope to see the league bring back defensive oriented rules as opposed to offensive favoring rules. Let us see the skills on full display. And ratings would soar. The biggest mistake the league made was assuming fans watch only when scores are high. When history has proven the opposite if anything.

    I gave up watching the modern game three years ago.
    I grew up watching 80’s/90’s/00’s Basketball. Even the Big Three Heat 11-14 and the Spurs were in your face defensive teams. Their goal was to shut you down. Points in the Paint were earned with pain.
    For me it turned starting in 16.
    The game is a bunch of brick layers, throwing up their hands and flopping like Brazilian soccer players any chance they can get. Chucking threes…..no defense, and the art of playing hardcore defense is dead. Same thing has happened in the NFL.
    Soft.
    Anyway…..I watched Malice at the Palace….hell yes….thats the Association I remember.
    And that is why I only play 2K with classic rosters and classic seasons.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    jfsolo
    I have no doubt that it's hard to address, Czar said in one of his videos that passing is a very difficult system to work on, but I would imagine that complaining from the majority of the customer base would probably be as big of an issue as the technical hurdles.

    This! That was another point I forgot to touch on. Little timmy doesn’t want fumbled passes due to pass accuracy. That’s why we have the slider option to fix ourselves to give ourselves the experience we want. The masses don’t want that.
    vannwolfhawk
    Let me give a quick example. I brought this up to Wang in 2k12 when I was invited in to 2k studios. I was specifically asking for a pass speed slider which we later ended up getting. But he told me it’s not that easy because animations are tied into passes and pass speed. It wasn’t an easy fix.

    Right, but I think it's very possible to introduce logic along the lines of "For every foot of space the ball travels in the air, pass accuracy is reduced by X points" or something.
    I'm not saying it's a simple thing that'll take two seconds, but I think it should be very possible.
    The help and drive and kick game in that video bamarob was awesome!
    Is it just me or do fancy dribble moves barely do anything vs the cpu? Feels like basic left stick moves and angles work better.
    vannwolfhawk
    Ok so ACE adjusts your saying so it’s not open like that all game and the cpu will adjust and scramble?
    Or your saying for a user you can change it?

    No. You go to the defensive settings and change it to no help. Czar has a video with it on and the people will not leave their man.
    cam21224
    Rob what do you change to unlock the passing options?
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    Controller settings. Icon Passing. Turn it to pass type control. It allows you to throw bounce. Lob. Regular pass with just the icon of the player you are passing to.
    Smirkin Dirk
    If you watch Czars videos, he does a great job of explaining how the most simple things are difficult and have to evaluated for its impact on other systems.

    I definitely understand that, I was just saying that it might be worth a try on their end IMO. Or maybe they have tried it and just never mentioned it, that's also possible.
    VictorMG
    Right, but I think it's very possible to introduce logic along the lines of "For every foot of space the ball travels in the air, pass accuracy is reduced by X points" or something.
    I'm not saying it's a simple thing that'll take two seconds, but I think it should be very possible.

    Oh ya it can be done and should be with scramble logic. 1 of the first things I do is lower pass speed for both user and cpu as well as the help d iq to combat your issue and super fast passes where cpu can’t close out or scramble in time as well as closing out faster. All that is a balancing act along with the d awareness slider. So, it can be done but not easy fix.
    Plus like Rob said most people just want that wide open 3 and don’t care about what we want from sim community with ultra realism. That in itself is a give and take.
    That’s the best part of 2k though compared to other games they give us every option to fix it ourselves. Whether through sliders, tendencies, or attribute edits. So for that I’m thankful.
    We all want that out of the box realism but it has to apply to 8 year old Timmy too.
    alabamarob
    No. You go to the defensive settings and change it to no help. Czar has a video with it on and the people will not leave their man. .

    Ya, I’m more talking and only really care about the cpu AI being able to adjust, scramble, and help.
    vannwolfhawk
    We all want that out of the box realism but it has to apply to 8 year old Timmy too.

    Maybe a Skip Pass Accuracy slider? Even I realize that might be too wishful, but a guy can dream. lol.
    I don't know if they even have any logic in the game that dictates what counts as a skip pass and what doesn't. I feel like probably not, since it never comes in to play for anything (not trying to insult the product, just saying).
    VictorMG
    Maybe a Skip Pass Accuracy slider? Even I realize that might be too wishful, but a guy can dream. lol.
    I don't know if they even have any logic in the game that dictates what counts as a skip pass and what doesn't. I feel like probably not, since it never comes in to play for anything (not trying to insult the product, just saying).

    Or how about this? A lob pass on a skip rather than a bullet line drive?! Lol Kind of like madden lob. Skips and flares as is are bullets. That I’m itself would help on rotations time.
    But for drift passes like we see all the time now I’d still want the bullets. It would be nice to be able to differentiate between the 2. The thing is with no help before the drift pass game wasn’t an option like in the real nba. There is 1 play I use that gives us the drift pass in the game I applied to the teams and players that use it. But now with the help on that should open up the drift pass but that’s why I hope the cpu can scramble and X out like irl…
    rudyjuly2
    The help and drive and kick game in that video bamarob was awesome!
    Is it just me or do fancy dribble moves barely do anything vs the cpu? Feels like basic left stick moves and angles work better.
    At the beginning of the year, barely.
    I feel you can stun the CPU now. I have perfect video of this, lol
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
    The 24th Letter
    At the beginning of the year, barely.
    I feel you can stun the CPU now. I have perfect video of this, lol
    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk

    Oh ya easy to shake them in an iso…
    vannwolfhawk
    I’m not in front of the game, but it’s not coach settings it’s coach sliders I believe under coach settings. Pause game, go to coach settings, 2nd from bottom iirc. It’s the 1st slider. Help defense (how often players will help). I always put at 85-95. It’s set to 50 for most all teams out of box. Some teams are at 35 which means they will very rarely help. I have asked for years to have this be a roster edit and 99.9% of people don’t use or even know about it and how it helps cpu and team defensive rotations. As is you can only change before the game and by switching controls quickly. I will switch to cpu before game and change as well as do this for my team. It’s a must edit before every game.

    Awesome, thanks! Now I know where to look for it.
    If I set it for each team (and my team) in MyNBA, will it stay, or does it reset after every game?
    I’m also gonna global edit help d attributes up about 10-20.

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