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The Golf Club 2019 Featuring PGA TOUR is Free For Xbox Live Gold Members

The Golf Club 2019

The Golf Club 2019 Featuring PGA TOUR is Free For Xbox Live Gold Members

Xbox Live Gold members can grab The Golf Club 2019 Featuring PGA TOUR for free until June 15. As part of the Games with Gold program, it’s yours for as long as you keep your subscription to the service.

Compete in the all new officially licensed PGA TOUR Career mode. Play on famous courses like TPC Boston, TPC Sawgrass and more. Show off your skills as you take part in PGA TOUR events such as the Shriners Hospitals for Children Open, the John Deere Classic and the Waste Management Phoenix Open. Take on Career Rivals throughout the season for that extra challenge and promise of reward.

If you missed our review of The Golf Club 2019 Featuring PGA TOUR, you can read it here.

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  1. Steve_OS

    Xbox Live Gold members can grab The Golf Club 2019 Featuring PGA TOUR for free until...
    Written By: Steve Noah
    Click here to view the article.

    We could actually see some legitimate Beginners in Online Matchmaking starting tomorrow! :) I'm really curious to see how this game goes over with casual gamers who take the initiative to pick it up and try it tomorrow. I'm concerned that most of them aren't going to grasp how the game's tempo dependent swing affects hooking and slicing, far more than it affects distance... we'll see, I guess.
    If you've played golf games before that use the thumbstick, analog control input method... I urge you to make sure you change your golfer's equipment to at least "Pro" clubs in the game before you play a round. It defaults to "Beginner" clubs and they are almost totally on rails. You'll get no idea of the dynamic nature of this game unless you use Pro, or better yet, Master clubs.
    I’m definitely downloading this today as I have been waiting to get into this game. I’ll be sure to change my club set before I start playing but I’ve had the itch for a good golf game for quite some time.
    R1zzo23
    I’m definitely downloading this today as I have been waiting to get into this game. I’ll be sure to change my club set before I start playing but I’ve had the itch for a good golf game for quite some time.

    You will definitely enjoy it, and for free no less! If you really like it you can sign up at TGCTOURS.com and get in weekly tournaments after you go through Q-school and get your tour card. There are a few stutter and framerate issues from time to time but overall it is a great golf game. Enjoy
    That's a good get for anyone on the fence about it, obviously because it's free. It's a good game though. Leaves stuff to be desired IMO, but the course creator makes it worth every penny even if you had to pay for it. Definitely recommend checking it out to all.
    brandon27
    That's a good get for anyone on the fence about it, obviously because it's free. It's a good game though. Leaves stuff to be desired IMO, but the course creator makes it worth every penny even if you had to pay for it. Definitely recommend checking it out to all.

    Lol. This made me smile a bit.
    Allow me to recap your post point by point..
    Neutral, sort of negative, sort of positive, negative, positive, positive.
    Just went through the shot tutorials and played the opening round to earn my tour card. I shot a +12 for the round as putting was pretty difficult (as it should be). I didn’t earn my card but I’m dying to get back on the course and try again. I enjoyed it for my first play and can imagine that playing with friends would be a blast.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    R1zzo23
    Just went through the shot tutorials and played the opening round to earn my tour card. I shot a +12 for the round as putting was pretty difficult (as it should be). I didn’t earn my card but I’m dying to get back on the course and try again. I enjoyed it for my first play and can imagine that playing with friends would be a blast.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

    Cool R1zzo23, and it is a blast with your friends, especially in Private Matchmaking... there are no delays there and it feels so "live".
    May I ask which club set you're using: Beginner, Pro, or Master? I recommend Pro, as a minimum, but give the Master clubs a go once you've gotten competent with the Pro clubs.
    Started with pro clubs as everyone said the game would be far too easy with the beginner set. Also I think I put difficulty in medium when I started the round.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    Probably my most played game on my Xbox or at least right up there with Fifa I really wish I would know more in advance what the free games will be. This is the second time I bought a game and then in a few months it was free.
    R1zzo23
    Isn’t it only free until the end of the month?
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

    As long as you download any free game before the game is no longer free then you own it for good
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    I only played one round so far, but I can tell that Pro clubs will be the permanent setting for me. Just by the feel of the swing and the putting, I know that my best scores will occasionally be in the mid 60's and I will blow up and shoot some 80's too. That range is perfect for me to enjoy the game.
    The price is definitely right. :y15:
    I'm not a big fan of the TGC series, the presentation is basically the same from TGC 1 to TGC 2019. It becomes redundant after playing a month or so. It does give a good round of golf.
    vertman
    As long as you download any free game before the game is no longer free then you own it for good...

    ...to the extent your install doesn't become corrupted. Back it up if you want to be sure to keep it ;o)
    This game is a blast.  I played a few head to head matchmakers this weekend and I very much enjoyed the experience.  Looking forward to more online gaming with this one!
    BigBlue
    BigBlue
    This game is a blast.* I played a few head to head matchmakers this weekend and I very much enjoyed the experience.* Looking forward to more online gaming with this one!
    BigBlue

    The actual multiplayer handling is responsive by the server. I'd like to ask you though, would you enjoy it more if you could lock to club set to a given type? I like to play with Master clubs in online matchmaking, but I quite often find myself matched up against players using Beginner clubs, who really have no business using beginner clubs, and it makes for what feels a bit like an apples to oranges match, IMO.
    When I'm matched up against someone using Master clubs, it's a much more complete and balanced experience. If I could have one wish for multiplayer in this game, it would be to have a filter to lock the club type to a certain type.
    Since the game went "Free With Gold" last week, I have encountered more people who legitimately should have been using beginner clubs, as they demonstrated all the traits of a beginning or very casual golf gamer. The game tries to equalize things by putting both players in a Beginner Vs. Master club player on the tees of the player with the shorter carrying clubs. Still, the beginner club control is sooooo much easier than the Master (at least on XBox One) that the competition is still leaning heavy toward the Beginner club player, who's not going to need as much carry anyway off the "Beginner/shorter" tees.
    jfsolo
    I only played one round so far, but I can tell that Pro clubs will be the permanent setting for me. Just by the feel of the swing and the putting, I know that my best scores will occasionally be in the mid 60's and I will blow up and shoot some 80's too. That range is perfect for me to enjoy the game.

    On the more difficult courses, Pro clubs give me as much challenge as I can handle. I've shot a couple 61's with them over the last few months on average courses, but I also shot a 94 with them at Bethpage Black in the final round of my favorite Society's tournament there last night... which included 5 quadruple bogeys. I have a tendency to go Jon Daly though, after a really bad hole, so I was playing the last 15 holes like a pouty brat :) The first quad was legit, the rest were 'attitude' quads. I'm hoping this is going to change a little bit as I mature with age ;)
    vertman
    As long as you download any free game before the game is no longer free then you own it for good
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    One caveat, since they started adding Xbox One Games with Gold, you have to continue to be gold to play the game. So if you stop paying for Gold you lose the game. Be aware of this!
    OnlookerDelay
    On the more difficult courses, Pro clubs give me as much challenge as I can handle. I've shot a couple 61's with them over the last few months on average courses, but I also shot a 94 with them at Bethpage Black in the final round of my favorite Society's tournament there last night... which included 5 quadruple bogeys. I have a tendency to go Jon Daly though, after a really bad hole, so I was playing the last 15 holes like a pouty brat :) The first quad was legit, the rest were 'attitude' quads. I'm hoping this is going to change a little bit as I mature with age ;)

    Perhaps start a thread here for like-minded members to play with.
    scourge
    This is a great game. I'm loving it so far.

    Just curious scourge, had you even considered this game before it became available as a "Free Games with Gold" offering? Also, are you playing TGC 2019 on an original XBox One, S, or X? This game on the XBox One X might be the biggest improvement I've seen for "XBox One X Enhanced" I've seen!
    OnlookerDelay
    Just curious scourge, had you even considered this game before it became available as a "Free Games with Gold" offering? Also, are you playing TGC 2019 on an original XBox One, S, or X? This game on the XBox One X might be the biggest improvement I've seen for "XBox One X Enhanced" I've seen!

    Is there any insight into the future of TGC series? I'm really liking it in fact loving it, but see some areas that need refined in terms of playability. Anyway, insights would be cool!
    ncp10
    Is there any insight into the future of TGC series? I'm really liking it in fact loving it, but see some areas that need refined in terms of playability. Anyway, insights would be cool!

    HB Studios has shown progress from TGC 1, to 2, and now to TGC 2019, so I'm cautiously optimistic that the next iteration will be better. However, since HB Studios has been in a full development cycle now, with their publishing partnership with 2K, they been far less forthcoming with information concerning the direction and future of the franchise.
    What's next for the series? I'd guess they'd try to get more mileage out of their PGA TOUR license, and possibly even include a few featured PGA TOUR Pros. If nothing else, I'd expect to see more PGA TOUR licensed courses in the mix. I wish I could give you a better answer, but that's the best I can do with what I've got to go on.
    OnlookerDelay
    HB Studios has shown progress from TGC 1, to 2, and now to TGC 2019, so I'm cautiously optimistic that the next iteration will be better. However, since HB Studios has been in a full development cycle now, with their publishing partnership with 2K, they been far less forthcoming with information concerning the direction and future of the franchise.
    What's next for the series? I'd guess they'd try to get more mileage out of their PGA TOUR license, and possibly even include a few featured PGA TOUR Pros. If nothing else, I'd expect to see more PGA TOUR licensed courses in the mix. I wish I could give you a better answer, but that's the best I can do with what I've got to go on.

    I wonder how and why they gave it away for the current month for Gold Live acct holders. What does that portend? Is it a death nell? Or an attempt to get it better known. In any case it's a phenomenal sim but currently on Master clubs we're finding it exceedingly challenging to get realistic performance from green side bunkers, fringe, etc. Chipping is crazy difficult and hard to explain, as is putting off the fringe often! While my GIR/FIR scores are where they would be for tour players the ability to get up and down from around the green is unrealistically challenging. It's improving but one false twitch and it's 25' long! Or short! I had an 18' putt the other day from 2' off the green, fringe lie 92-96%, so set up the putt which was on fast greens to compensate for the lie and the bloody putt went 8 feet and I have zero explanation for that!
    ncp10
    I wonder how and why they gave it away for the current month for Gold Live acct holders. What does that portend? Is it a death nell? Or an attempt to get it better known.

    Here's what HB Studios Producer Shaun West said about TGC 2019 being part of the "Games With Gold" release:
    "Getting TGC19 on Games with Gold is a huge achievement for the franchise. Being part of this group of games for a one month period gives us an opportunity to significantly increase the userbase on Xbox and continue to increase the awareness of the game."
    http://www.hb-studios.com/forum/index.php/topic,28111.msg340445.html#msg340445
    I think they've achieved their goal of giving the game greater exposure. There have been over 125 new reviews of the game on XBox Live since the free release, and roughly half of those are 4 or 5 star reviews. TGC 19 clubs on XBox Live have seen a tremendous uptick in enrollment, many Societies, including the one I help manage have seen a number of new membership requests.
    How this will translate into sales for the next title in the franchise remains to be seen, but I bet the initial sales will easily top those of TGC 2019
    In any case it's a phenomenal sim but currently on Master clubs we're finding it exceedingly challenging to get realistic performance from green side bunkers, fringe, etc. Chipping is crazy difficult and hard to explain, as is putting off the fringe often! While my GIR/FIR scores are where they would be for tour players the ability to get up and down from around the green is unrealistically challenging. It's improving but one false twitch and it's 25' long! Or short! I had an 18' putt the other day from 2' off the green, fringe lie 92-96%, so set up the putt which was on fast greens to compensate for the lie and the bloody putt went 8 feet and I have zero explanation for that!

    Your observations here are all valid, and some of them can be explained. It's far too easy to power putts past the hole. I always to to imagine that the hole is actually 8 to 10% closer to me than the reported distance to help offset that tendency.
    The fringes are pretty energy draining in this game. It may say it's 92-96% fringe, but the fringe in TGC 2019 is pretty "sticky", for lack of a better term. If I've got 2 feet of fringe in front of me, I'm going to add 6 feet of putt strength to the putt to counter it. I normally go with 3 feet of extra putt strength for every foot of fringe.
    OnlookerDelay
    Here's what HB Studios Producer Shaun West said about TGC 2019 being part of the "Games With Gold" release:
    "Getting TGC19 on Games with Gold is a huge achievement for the franchise. Being part of this group of games for a one month period gives us an opportunity to significantly increase the userbase on Xbox and continue to increase the awareness of the game."
    http://www.hb-studios.com/forum/index.php/topic,28111.msg340445.html#msg340445
    I think they've achieved their goal of giving the game greater exposure. There have been over 125 new reviews of the game on XBox Live since the free release, and roughly half of those are 4 or 5 star reviews. TGC 19 clubs on XBox Live have seen a tremendous uptick in enrollment, many Societies, including the one I help manage have seen a number of new membership requests.
    How this will translate into sales for the next title in the franchise remains to be seen, but I bet the initial sales will easily top those of TGC 2019
    Your observations here are all valid, and some of them can be explained. It's far too easy to power putts past the hole. I always to to imagine that the hole is actually 8 to 10% closer to me than the reported distance to help offset that tendency.
    The fringes are pretty energy draining in this game. It may say it's 92-96% fringe, but the fringe in TGC 2019 is pretty "sticky", for lack of a better term. If I've got 2 feet of fringe in front of me, I'm going to add 6 feet of putt strength to the putt to counter it. I normally go with 3 feet of extra putt strength for every foot of fringe.

    Thanks for that it may help! And hopeful to read Shaun's comments. Fantastic game and terribly addicting!
    I'm puzzled: I'm in the Player's Championship and set Career Difficulty to HARD at the start of the tournament. After 2 of 4 rounds I was tied at 17th place. I then went back to PGA Tour > Settings and changed Difficulty back to Medium. I saw no affect whatsoever and the rest of the field scored even lower scores, so I'm puzzled. What is happening with this? What role does the Difficulty setting in Career mode play? I was hoping for a top 10 finish but now the leader after 3 rounds is -19, I'm -6. My sense is even though you can change Difficulty in mid-event, the difficulty level does not actually change. Perhaps it will change when you start a new event in the same season. Does anyone know for sure how this works?
    ncp10
    I'm puzzled: I'm in the Player's Championship and set Career Difficulty to HARD at the start of the tournament. After 2 of 4 rounds I was tied at 17th place. I then went back to PGA Tour > Settings and changed Difficulty back to Medium. I saw no affect whatsoever and the rest of the field scored even lower scores, so I'm puzzled. What is happening with this? What role does the Difficulty setting in Career mode play? I was hoping for a top 10 finish but now the leader after 3 rounds is -19, I'm -6. My sense is even though you can change Difficulty in mid-event, the difficulty level does not actually change. Perhaps it will change when you start a new event in the same season. Does anyone know for sure how this works?

    I wish I could help you with this, but I've never gone beyond one round in the Career mode. For various reasons, I just don't find myself I'm playing against anything other than a floating bell curve of scores. It would take individually created, attribute based AI players, with whom I could play along with if desired, before I would feel like investing in it.
    There's got to be an answer to your question though, hopefully someone tuned in can answer it.
    OnlookerDelay
    I wish I could help you with this, but I've never gone beyond one round in the Career mode. For various reasons, I just don't find myself I'm playing against anything other than a floating bell curve of scores. It would take individually created, attribute based AI players, with whom I could play along with if desired, before I would feel like investing in it.
    There's got to be an answer to your question though, hopefully someone tuned in can answer it.

    I hear you the only reason I'm playing career is for practice so I can play live against my playing pal. But it's a conundrum for sure. Right now my best guess is you can choose a different difficulty level after the event starts, but it won't be applied. I ended up T27 as the leader shot... -29 cumulative. Yeah sure! I won two events out of 6 in Medium difficulty mode so I had hoped to see a bit more challenge at Hard, but that is ridiculously different. Yes, much prefer live golf! Thanks!
    ncp10
    I hear you the only reason I'm playing career is for practice so I can play live against my playing pal. But it's a conundrum for sure. Right now my best guess is you can choose a different difficulty level after the event starts, but it won't be applied. I ended up T27 as the leader shot... -29 cumulative. Yeah sure! I won two events out of 6 in Medium difficulty mode so I had hoped to see a bit more challenge at Hard, but that is ridiculously different. Yes, much prefer live golf! Thanks!

    Yea it will change once the new event starts. This is one area were they need to fix. Hard and Very Hard just crazy low cpu scores. You get better and can hang with hard but it makes you want to break your controller when you are doing good but the CPU is destroying your score. Medium is wayyyyy too easy. Almost done with full season and I have won 22 out of the 27 on Medium. Going to go to Hard for the next season. Hopefully I don't lose my mind lol. I don't have the time to play online, but if you can, I say do that instead of dealing with the cpu. Hopefully they put in sliders or let you edit the cpu so you can tone down the scores on hard/very hard or make medium harder than what it is now.
    burter
    Yea it will change once the new event starts. This is one area were they need to fix. Hard and Very Hard just crazy low cpu scores. You get better and can hang with hard but it makes you want to break your controller when you are doing good but the CPU is destroying your score. Medium is wayyyyy too easy. Almost done with full season and I have won 22 out of the 27 on Medium. Going to go to Hard for the next season. Hopefully I don't lose my mind lol. I don't have the time to play online, but if you can, I say do that instead of dealing with the cpu. Hopefully they put in sliders or let you edit the cpu so you can tone down the scores on hard/very hard or make medium harder than what it is now.

    Ok thanks looks like I guessed right. One could go back to Pro clubs and try on Hard, but I like the extra yardage even if it means the odd flop shots goes 40' past the target :confused:
    So there's too big of a gap between medium and hard? I would guess that the "AI" scores would still be independent of whether you were using Pro or Master clubs though? I score better with Pro clubs than I do Master clubs, but I prefer the more dynamic nature of the Master clubs... they just feel more alive and the shot variety varies more.
    OnlookerDelay
    So there's too big of a gap between medium and hard? I would guess that the "AI" scores would still be independent of whether you were using Pro or Master clubs though? I score better with Pro clubs than I do Master clubs, but I prefer the more dynamic nature of the Master clubs... they just feel more alive and the shot variety varies more.

    I believe clubs do not matter. So beginner/pro/master clubs doesn't matter, still same CPU scores depending on the CPU difficulty. Yea I like Master also, but just started on Hard and had to go back to pro for now.
    Got into the Tour pretty quick with a -12. I moved my club difficulty up a level. Still on medium overall gameplay. Show +12 in my first Tour tournament, but that included two risky shots that went into the water.
    Seems like wind is overpowered. A 7mph breeze moves a shot so much.
    Question: What are the little indicators on the left side of the swing meter for?
    SuperBowlNachos
    Question: What are the little indicators on the left side of the swing meter for?

    I've never paid attention to those, but I'll check it out my next time out. My not knowing what they are might explain my recent decent in all the Societies in which I play! :)
    OnlookerDelay
    I've never paid attention to those, but I'll check it out my next time out. My not knowing what they are might explain my recent decent in all the Societies in which I play! :)

    Are there any Societies where the green grid is banned, and where players are using Master clubs?
    ncp10
    Are there any Societies where the green grid is banned, and where players are using Master clubs?

    Sure there is!
    I know one called True SIM . Not sure if it’s for Xbox though.
    But click this link.
    Lots of societies for you to look at and choose from.
    Enjoy buddy! ��
    http://tgctours.proboards.com/board/55/societies-community-run-events
    ** after looking over the list, I believe The Ultra SIM society is what you would be looking for. It’s a cross platform society as well. So, even better!
    lions67
    Sure there is!
    I know one called True SIM . Not sure if it’s for Xbox though.
    But click this link.
    Lots of societies for you to look at and choose from.
    Enjoy buddy! ��
    http://tgctours.proboards.com/board/55/societies-community-run-events

    There's a TGC Tours (True Sim Tour) Society for XBox One listed and I'm pretty sure it comes close to meeting ncp10's requirements... not sure about the Master club set requirement though. I know club set has to be done by honor. There's no way to lock a tournament for club set.
    ** after looking over the list, I believe The Ultra SIM society is what you would be looking for. It’s a cross platform society as well. So, even better!

    Ultra SIM gets really picky... no follow cam, so I hope that wouldn't mean reverse landing camera, which I use, is out also, no loft box use, so this would really tie your hands as hard as partial "normal" swings are in this game. But yes, it's also available to XBox One players.
    OnlookerDelay
    There's a TGC Tours (True Sim Tour) Society for XBox One listed and I'm pretty sure it comes close to meeting ncp10's requirements... not sure about the Master club set requirement though. I know club set has to be done by honor. There's no way to lock a tournament for club set.
    Ultra SIM gets really picky... no follow cam, so I hope that wouldn't mean reverse landing camera, which I use, is out also, no loft box use, so this would really tie your hands as hard as partial "normal" swings are in this game. But yes, it's also available to XBox One players.

    Yeah for sure that would be a tough society to play in.
    I’ve been playing for 2 years now and I still need those aids. Tried playing with it off and.... the scores were what I would expect IRL ...BAD!! Haha!!
    But I do only play in societies now that use strictly Master clubs, only exception is of course TGC Tours. But still I use the Master club.
    Too bad you are on Xbox bud. Would love to play a round with you!
    lions67
    Yeah for sure that would be a tough society to play in.
    I’ve been playing for 2 years now and I still need those aids. Tried playing with it off and.... the scores were what I would expect IRL ...BAD!! Haha!!
    But I do only play in societies now that use strictly Master clubs, only exception is of course TGC Tours. But still I use the Master club.
    Too bad you are on Xbox bud. Would love to play a round with you!

    I'm too lazy to play gridless greens. I tried playing in the 4 Letter Word Society on XBox One and after about a dozen tournaments, I realized I don't have the patience, plus I'm too lazy to do the work needed to assess a putt without grids. I could see what those who do get out of it though. It's really gratifying when you get a birdie with gridless greens and no scout camera, but I can't get around my lack of patience with it, sadly.
    SuperBowlNachos
    Question: What are the little indicators on the left side of the swing meter for?

    If you're talking about the slender, triangular shaped markers, they indicate more precisely where your backswing and downswing tempo was, relative to the desired tempo. Ideally, you want those markers to appear in the middle of the wider, darkened region of the swing feedback meter.
    scagwi
    So there was no presence at all at E3 and no news, correct?
    Major drag

    None... I read from a show goer that the only thing 2K was showing was Borderlands 3; not even a sign of NBA 2K 20!?
    OnlookerDelay
    None... I read from a show goer that the only thing 2K was showing was Borderlands 3; not even a sign of NBA 2K 20!?

    That sucks.
    Really makes one wonder what is (or isn’t) going on, especially with the 2019 branding on the current game.
    Even just any kind of nod to something coming eventually would have been really hopeful, especially with updates to the current game having stopped like 6 months ago now.
    scagwi
    That sucks.
    Really makes one wonder what is (or isn’t) going on, especially with the 2019 branding on the current game.
    Even just any kind of nod to something coming eventually would have been really hopeful, especially with updates to the current game having stopped like 6 months ago now.

    If you're a mega publisher like 2K, I can't understand why you would go to the expense of paying for space and travel to an event like E3, only to show one game?? The whole vibe I get from E3 is so different now than it was only three years ago.
    2K seems to have deferred to HB Studios as far as handling the forum for TGC, as they link you to the HB Studios forum rather than allotting them a section at the 2K website, like they do so many of their other titles. If you're going to defer to them for that, why not let them do some PR on their own title on their own website. There's not a hint of TGC 202X on 2K's site right now.
    OnlookerDelay
    If you're a mega publisher like 2K, I can't understand why you would go to the expense of paying for space and travel to an event like E3, only to show one game?? The whole vibe I get from E3 is so different now than it was only three years ago.
    2K seems to have deferred to HB Studios as far as handling the forum for TGC, as they link you to the HB Studios forum rather than allotting them a section at the 2K website, like they do so many of their other titles. If you're going to defer to them for that, why not let them do some PR on their own title on their own website. There's not a hint of TGC 202X on 2K's site right now.

    So is this game officially dead? Just that one update last summer and that was it? Shame. Was hoping for some DLC. I would’ve actually paid for more courses. Golf games I didn’t mind shelling out $15 for a pack of 4 or 5 courses.
    jbd345
    So is this game officially dead? Just that one update last summer and that was it? Shame. Was hoping for some DLC. I would’ve actually paid for more courses. Golf games I didn’t mind shelling out $15 for a pack of 4 or 5 courses.

    No, I wouldn't say it's dead by any stretch. Part of what I think is happening here is that a lot of the user base and potential buyers are expecting The Golf Club franchise to change to an annual release, now that 2K is the game's publisher and they included the 'year' in the most recent title. However, I've never read anything official coming from HB Studios that would suggest that's the case. I think the next title will be released when it's ready for release and it may or may not pick up whatever year that happens to be or happens to be approaching when it is released (TGC 2019 was actually released in July, 2018).
    I'm sure they're working on a new TGC right now, but I'm picking up clues that indicate to me that it's not far enough along for them to communicate anything substantive about it yet. I'm not sure whether it's 2K or HB Studios who's going to be communicating the information about the next title.
    OnlookerDelay
    a lot of the user base and potential buyers are expecting The Golf Club franchise to change to an annual release, now that 2K is the game's publisher and they included the 'year' in the most recent title. However, I've never read anything official coming from HB Studios that would suggest that's the case.

    My sense is that it would be absolutely a losing proposition to create an annual release for any golf sim, TGC included. The real allegiance to golf sims, IMHO, comes from exactly what gets peopled hooked on RL golf, which is not flashy new players or even courses. Sure, they help, but the staying power, the loyalty, the fan base, comes from simulating what RL golf does for avid golfers. Instead of an annual release which cost HBS a whole lot of $$ in development they should announce up front there core engine will have an X (fill in the blank) year lifespan. During that span which might be 4y, or 5y, new players or high end course content can be purchased, as desired, or leave that to the 3rd party devs. This is exactly what MS Flight Simulator eventually did, and a huge number of durable 3rd party content providers were spawned and exist to this day in the sequel done by Lockheed Martin, Prepar3D. This encourages content developers as they know how long their product will be good for. Then, they do a major new release in 4-5y, capitalizing on better graphics, a few cool new useful features like being able to move your player on the tee box, refined swing mechanisms, more variability in weather, or live weather, brand name golf equipment, etc. The demand for golf sims isn't huge enough to warrant cranking out a whole new product annually. This approach risks the company throwing in the towel because it's never going to be profitable. TGC 2019 is a phenomenal golf sim already, with fabulous graphics, a well integrated method for accessing courses. If you aren't personally driven in playing TGC 2019 as you might be playing in the real world no amount of gingerbread will hold your attention.
    So what's your best guess at this point?
    It's really odd that they weren't at E3. The 2019 branding would have lead one to believe they had been planning on going the annual route.
    I agree - they shouldn't.
    But what they also shouldn't do is "not update the game for 1/2 year", which is where it's at now.
    ncp10
    My sense is that it would be absolutely a losing proposition to create an annual release for any golf sim, TGC included.

    I agree, there's simply not enough demand for it.
    TGC 2019 is a phenomenal golf sim already, with fabulous graphics, a well integrated method for accessing courses. If you aren't personally driven in playing TGC 2019 as you might be playing in the real world no amount of gingerbread will hold your attention.

    I wouldn't say it's phenomenal... it's good but not phenomenal. I'm still playing it almost a year later, and that wasn't the case with the original TGC. A phenomenal golf sim wouldn't cause the shot result to have MORE carry for a slow downswing tempo!? I understand what HB Studios was trying to do with this new swing mechanic, but it doesn't fully correlate to terrestrial physics, and I have to leave some of my golf instincts at the door as a result.
    In spite of all my reservations about TGC 2019, I'm enjoying playing it for what it offers. The caliber of courses that some of the more talented course designers publish are exceptional and plentiful... and that, along with Society tournament play is what keeps me fueled about playing TGC 2019.
    scagwi
    So what's your best guess at this point?
    It's really odd that they weren't at E3. The 2019 branding would have lead one to believe they had been planning on going the annual route.

    My guess is they didn't have anything substantial enough to show. Now that they're under 2K's wing, I don't think they would have been there unless they were there with 2K's blessing and then as part of 2K's display.
    But what they also shouldn't do is "not update the game for 1/2 year", which is where it's at now.

    This game could certainly stand some updates for glaring problems that "seem" to be readily fixable with an update. I'm a bit shocked that they're letting some of the fixes needed fester until what now looks like it will be a 2020 release date for the next title.
    Yes I hear you I did ignore several areas of refinement in my list of possible improvements to include in a whole new core game 4-5y out from debut, including better backspin behavior, having the slow downswing translate into distance loss as well as fade but that is just a minor tweak to resolve. But overall, I still call it phenomenal and I think your story corroborates that in that you are still playing it despite its shortcomings. I think there's ample room for an improved swing mechanism and also better control over cameras, especially for an observer.
    ncp10
    Yes I hear you I did ignore several areas of refinement in my list of possible improvements to include in a whole new core game 4-5y out from debut, including better backspin behavior, having the slow downswing translate into distance loss as well as fade but that is just a minor tweak to resolve. But overall, I still call it phenomenal and I think your story corroborates that in that you are still playing it despite its shortcomings. I think there's ample room for an improved swing mechanism and also better control over cameras, especially for an observer.

    There's so much more HBS could do with this game. I just wish they would understand how beneficial it would be to have a swing mechanic that FULLY modeled the swing in a more analogous fashion. I understand why they did what they did, trying to take some of the advantage of zero axis controllers out of the picture, but it feels wonky and it doesn't fully negate zero axis controllers.
    I also agree we need more customization and control over cameras and I know they are capable of doing it, if it's high enough on their priority list to do it.
    Yeah, I'm enjoying the game and it looks like I will continue to enjoy it until the next one comes along, or until Perfect Golf 2 is released. Which one you reckon will happen first? ;)
    lions67
    Yeah for sure that would be a tough society to play in.
    I’ve been playing for 2 years now and I still need those aids. Tried playing with it off and.... the scores were what I would expect IRL ...BAD!! Haha!!
    But I do only play in societies now that use strictly Master clubs, only exception is of course TGC Tours. But still I use the Master club.
    Too bad you are on Xbox bud. Would love to play a round with you!

    I have a PS4 and actually bought TGC 1 and 2 for it. The DS4 controller design doesn't work well with my long fingers for golf. I like to use the left stick for swinging the club, as I associate it with my left arm, in my right handed golf swing. My long left thumb creates a geometry that sets up a severe angle between it and the stick. The higher mounting position of the left stick on the XBox One controller allows my thumb a much more comfortable angle and the control feels better as a result.
    Another reply from Shaun. He's working really hard to say "games" and not insinuate anything about another "golf game". Hard to parse I guess, but this doesn't lead one to believe there is some new version of TGC anywhere close to being a reality. Maybe it's all a big smoke screen?
    "You guys work yourselves up creating these ideas of what is happening. This is not an uncommon practice for any developer to take when they're working on something... I've said it countless times that we're always here keeping an eye on what's being said about 2019. Just because we're not engaging through posts doesn't mean there is some grand conspiracy going on with the future of TGC or HB. The simple fact is there's nothing for us to share at this time or make official. Once there is a steady stream of content/information to share about anything we're working on, you will know and be involved. Working with 2K is far from restricting as well, they have a team dedicated to marketing and publishing their products and do a very good job at that. Sure it's different than TGC1 but different is better in my opinion and lets the dev team focus on what's critical, making the best games we can."
    scagwi
    Another reply from Shaun. He's working really hard to say "games" and not insinuate anything about another "golf game". Hard to parse I guess, but this doesn't lead one to believe there is some new version of TGC anywhere close to being a reality. Maybe it's all a big smoke screen?
    "You guys work yourselves up creating these ideas of what is happening. This is not an uncommon practice for any developer to take when they're working on something... I've said it countless times that we're always here keeping an eye on what's being said about 2019. Just because we're not engaging through posts doesn't mean there is some grand conspiracy going on with the future of TGC or HB. The simple fact is there's nothing for us to share at this time or make official. Once there is a steady stream of content/information to share about anything we're working on, you will know and be involved. Working with 2K is far from restricting as well, they have a team dedicated to marketing and publishing their products and do a very good job at that. Sure it's different than TGC1 but different is better in my opinion and lets the dev team focus on what's critical, making the best games we can."

    Yeah, it's a reply that skirts the question, IMO. I called him on it in the official forum, and cited where his last three replies to questions about golf games or TGC have avoided using golf or TGC in his response. I honestly don't know what they've got going on that's setting this up, but I've also decided that this is going to be my last question to anyone at HBS about the future status of TGC, until they say something on their own about it. They're buttoned up for some reason and it could be something that all of us are overlooking. We'll know sooner or later.
    Good work trying to pin down Shaun on avoiding the word "Golf" JC.
    I hope he clarifies a bit.
    It seems very deliberate how he's wording things to be very general.
    The funny part about wording in posts from developers is that people will try to read into everything when it's a positive affirmation for what they want, but when it's the opposite, you constantly get naysayers saying "you're reading into it too much!" - "doesn't mean anything!" - "They'll tell us when they will tell us - 'nuff said", etc.
    lol
    Can't have it both ways my forum friends..
    Words and wording matter in both directions and usually are in fact indicative of underlying truths.
    jbd345
    So is this game officially dead? Just that one update last summer and that was it? Shame. Was hoping for some DLC. I would’ve actually paid for more courses. Golf games I didn’t mind shelling out $15 for a pack of 4 or 5 courses.

    Absolutely no need to pay for courses with the creators that provide free content.
    lowpaiddonkey10
    Absolutely no need to pay for courses with the creators that provide free content.

    Conversely, maybe if there was more DLC action and more revenue coming in, the development wouldn't have stopped 6 months ago with no indication about what might (or might not) be next.
    I really wish someone would charge, ongoing, whatever it takes to keep the lights on and development continuously moving for years and years.
    scagwi

    I really wish someone would charge, ongoing, whatever it takes to keep the lights on and development continuously moving for years and years.

    Yearly releases are a waste of everyone's time--it's a losing business model for a golf sim and they'll bail just like EA did if they try to do it. I'd like to see HBS work on a quantum jump in texture quality, active weather w/ much greater sky/weather variability, cloud types, improved swing modeling, etc for the next full release in 4-5y. Utilize the PGA connection to capture the swings of the top 8-10 players, release them with the game in 4-5y, and announce a robust program to capture the top 30 players and charge for a set of 5 for $30 or something like that. Perhaps also sell HBS created courses that utilize the next generation of textures that won't work on legacy courses which as you know are quite good already. We played, of course, Pebble today and were amazed how the quality is for that entire course at 4K resolution.
    ncp10
    Yearly releases are a waste of everyone's time--it's a losing business model for a golf sim and they'll bail just like EA did if they try to do it. I'd like to see HBS work on a quantum jump in texture quality, active weather w/ much greater sky/weather variability, cloud types, improved swing modeling, etc for the next full release in 4-5y. Utilize the PGA connection to capture the swings of the top 8-10 players, release them with the game in 4-5y, and announce a robust program to capture the top 30 players and charge for a set of 5 for $30 or something like that. Perhaps also sell HBS created courses that utilize the next generation of textures that won't work on legacy courses which as you know are quite good already. We played, of course, Pebble today and were amazed how the quality is for that entire course at 4K resolution.

    I definitely am not advocating for yearly releases.
    I agree with you.
    They are an awful idea for a golf game.
    As for the rest of your post. It all sounds good to me. I just wonder if there is actually a market willing to pay for what you propose. I think us golf game fans maybe aren’t grasping that all these titles launching and then not going anywhere might be indicative of a broader market problem here.
    We may want all those things, but perhaps there aren’t enough others that do and thus here we are.
    Side note as it relates to TGC
    A little discouraging to see HB just "lock" the thread talking about what's next over on their forum.
    Oh well
    scagwi
    Side note as it relates to TGC
    A little discouraging to see HB just "lock" the thread talking about what's next over on their forum.
    Oh well

    Yeah, I saw no justification in that at all!
    scagwi
    I think us golf game fans maybe aren’t grasping that all these titles launching and then not going anywhere might be indicative of a broader market problem here.

    Absolutely. I think the market for any golf sim is mostly confined to 'serious' golfers who also play golf sims and to that end I'd love to see TGC continue to try to appeal to that niche, which may barely be large enough to sustain them, which is why I say 4-5y per full release, with some way to pay the rent ongoing. I'd happily play $30 to get a 5-pack of super stars, super well done. Think about expanding the animations pre and post shot, just enough to add some depth w/o getting corny. But I think many people don't appreciate what it takes to bring that to market very well done. I think to put your heart and soul into developing that golf sim, and then read a barrage of complaints about what's wrong doesn't help move the developer to stay with it either. This may be behind HBS decision to lock the thread--they're tired of never being good enough. Gamers can be on the whole a whiney bunch w/ little appreciation for the incredibly hard work it takes to develop these jewels you can buy for a lousy $50. So I hope TGC strives to meet the needs of the subgroup of golfers who get what a killer golf sim is--they will easily play it for 5y w/o the need for an upgrade because what captures their attention is not bells n whistles which ultimately have flash-in-the-pan staying power, but the competition w/ live players that keeps them coming back. I think this is why TGC has the player base it does, and they need to continue to market in that direction and in doing so build their reputation as THE go-to golf sim for years to come.
    @ncp
    The only problem I have is whatever arrangement Hb got themselves into has somehow hamstrung their ability to communicate.
    Surely they must realize that you can’t continue like this with no updates and no new game and no communication without everyone going insane over there.
    Trust me it happened in the perfect golf world and will there also if this keeps up.
    If they plan to pivot to one release every few years then the updates need to continue which they have not. I think that’s the core of the frustration. No updates but no new game and no plan explained to anybody.
    It's disappointing to see the veiled threat/concern over being banned making people scared to say anything even remotely "negative" (or just honest) about the 2019 game as it is.
    Might as well just have a "only positive comments allowed" rule.
    Anyone know the full text of what the deleted poster said?
    Honestly, it sounds like maybe HB just "didn't like it" and not that it violated any rules or norms and certainly didn't "belittle the developer" (that feels like hyperbolic silliness in this case).
    HB should fully expect the reaction they are getting there right now with no updates for half a year and no communication and nothing new in sight.
    scagwi
    It's disappointing to see the veiled threat/concern over being banned making people scared to say anything even remotely "negative" (or just honest) about the 2019 game as it is.
    Might as well just have a "only positive comments allowed" rule.
    Anyone know the full text of what the deleted poster said?
    Honestly, it sounds like maybe HB just "didn't like it" and not that it violated any rules or norms and certainly didn't "belittle the developer" (that feels like hyperbolic silliness in this case).
    HB should fully expect the reaction they are getting there right now with no updates for half a year and no communication and nothing new in sight.

    There's been a significant change in operating procedures at HB Studios, since shortly after the TGC 2019 launch. They totally wiped the TGC 2019 forum section out and started it fresh, with little explanation. HB Studios CEO Alan Bunker had been constructively active in the forum prior to this 'reset'. We haven't heard a peep out of him since and his username has been changed from "HB_Alan - Administrator, Full Member" to "HB_Alan - Guest".
    Alan is still listed as the CEO of HB Studios, but since he backed out of any involvement in the forum, and the forum was reset, there has been a major course change in the MO of HB Studios, which I think goes beyond simply the 2K partnership. I've run out of theories about what's going on there, but I'm thinking eventually we'll see another golf game, but it might not call itself "The Golf Club umpty squat" when it happens.
    scagwi
    HB should fully expect the reaction they are getting there right now with no updates for half a year and no communication and nothing new in sight.

    I don't know about you, but we can play the game every day and not tire of it, just like I we don't need updates for RL golf to stay engaged. It takes two to make a successful platform: a developer, and an audience. Right now the developer has done an amazing amount of quality work, and they even gave it away recently for a month to xbox users. But people can't deal with not having a steady stream of new stuff else they will be unhappy. It's not possible to win at this using this model. Maybe HBS will read these comments and consider a 4-5y release cycle w/ DLC players and courses. Serious golf simmers will adhere to it just like serious flight simmers have w/ FSX and Prepar3D. Huge depth, huge content developers, durable. Many good sized developers spawned out of this model and have thrived in this domain. Check out ORBXsystems for one.
    ncp10
    I don't know about you, but we can play the game every day and not tire of it, just like I we don't need updates for RL golf to stay engaged. It takes two to make a successful platform: a developer, and an audience. Right now the developer has done an amazing amount of quality work, and they even gave it away recently for a month to xbox users. But people can't deal with not having a steady stream of new stuff else they will be unhappy. It's not possible to win at this using this model. Maybe HBS will read these comments and consider a 4-5y release cycle w/ DLC players and courses. Serious golf simmers will adhere to it just like serious flight simmers have w/ FSX and Prepar3D. Huge depth, huge content developers, durable. Many good sized developers spawned out of this model and have thrived in this domain. Check out ORBXsystems for one.

    I don’t play the game at all honestly - different reasons altogether that aren’t relevant here (personal thing with family I play with)
    I’m glad you have no issues. It seems like plenty on the HB forum don’t agree though.
    In any case, if the game is a going concern for them, more fixes are needed and communication should be better. I can very much understand a lot of the frustration around that part of things.
    It is a touch ironic you brought up FSX/P3D. If HB wanted to open the game way up to modding, as the flight sim platforms are, you’d have a whole different discussion. I totally agree that would breathe incredible life into it. As it stands now, it’s closed and I’ve heard nothing to indicate plans for anything else.
    I really really wish Perfect Golf would go that route - who knows - maybe once it’s obsolete and Trackman users are on a next gen platform. Never know. It would be incredible if so.
    scagwi
    I’m glad you have no issues.

    I have issues, but I appreciate what's fabulous about the game, respect the incredible amount of work it took to get it to where it is, and am patient to see where they take it going forward, if they take it forward. Chiefly, my gripe is around the swing mechanism. I agree w/ Onlooker that it needs to be more/pure analogue, somehow. It would be a challenge doing it better using the simple little console JS.
    As for modding, that's what the course architect is, and it's incredible what people have done w/ it. Unbelievably good quality renderings on my 4K screen. We played Cypress Point yesterday and what a phenomenal job was done on that course.
    Again, my gripe is...the amount of gripes coming out of the peanut gallery!
    I think this is where we would agree: I've always wanted to see strong dialogue between the user base and the developer, ongoing. The same issue exists in P3D and 3rd party support for same--developers tire of people trashing their handiwork and dragging in other negativity from others in the peanut gallery. I see it in the flight sim world and I have been one of those peanuts as well at times!
    ncp10
    Absolutely. I think the market for any golf sim is mostly confined to 'serious' golfers who also play golf sims and to that end I'd love to see TGC continue to try to appeal to that niche, which may barely be large enough to sustain them, which is why I say 4-5y per full release, with some way to pay the rent ongoing. I'd happily play $30 to get a 5-pack of super stars, super well done. Think about expanding the animations pre and post shot, just enough to add some depth w/o getting corny. But I think many people don't appreciate what it takes to bring that to market very well done. I think to put your heart and soul into developing that golf sim, and then read a barrage of complaints about what's wrong doesn't help move the developer to stay with it either. This may be behind HBS decision to lock the thread--they're tired of never being good enough. Gamers can be on the whole a whiney bunch w/ little appreciation for the incredibly hard work it takes to develop these jewels you can buy for a lousy $50. So I hope TGC strives to meet the needs of the subgroup of golfers who get what a killer golf sim is--they will easily play it for 5y w/o the need for an upgrade because what captures their attention is not bells n whistles which ultimately have flash-in-the-pan staying power, but the competition w/ live players that keeps them coming back. I think this is why TGC has the player base it does, and they need to continue to market in that direction and in doing so build their reputation as THE go-to golf sim for years to come.

    Lots of good points in this post. In spite of all of its shortcomings, I find myself enjoying TGC 2019 as much now as I did after its last update in December. I'm actually steadily getting worse at the game over the last four months, but finding that I'm enjoying it more. It brings out the same reactions I have to missed shots, especially putts, that I have in real life.
    I feel the challenge of the game now more than I did early on, but I must confess that part of it is due to my declining skills with it.
    I don't know what HB Studios direction is with this game right now. They communicate so little any more that it's difficult to gauge what direction they're going with it. I think they need to target common, non golf playing customers with the default settings for the game and call it "Amateur". Make it play slightly harder than the current game plays with Beginner clubs, increase the club carry distances to something more akin to what Master club carry distances are now, with an overswing option that has some risk/reward added.
    They should also have an option for "Pro" play, where we have something akin to the current Master club difficulty, with hooks and slices that are determined more by swing path, and pushes and pulls that are determined by tempo. That would make the swing mechanic feel more intuitive to the IRL golfers who play the game. This mode also needs to scale back the loft box, and figure out a way to make the swing power more scaleable to the stick movement. It's next to impossible to modulate a 90% full swing, for example.
    Meanwhile, I've got a game I enjoy and one that I'm pretty sure will keep me entertained until the next one comes along. The quality of the new courses that are coming out now from users is incredible! This LiDAR tool kit that Chad Golf has put out there free, for the PC version owners is working wonders, IMO!
    I know you two may disagree but I think they should completely scrap everything about their swing and start over if that’s what it takes to reduce or eliminate the loft box.
    I’d love for the swing to be much more about pre-shot set up of your stance and open and closing the club face and where the ball is in your stance etc.
    Again I know you will disagree with this part but to somebody who is not a fan of the game as is I just found the tempo thing to be a tacked on effort to try to make things more interesting and varied when really the swing just needs more granularity and simplification straight from what the analog stick is giving to the game to work with.
    I don’t buy anything they have said about it not being possible. Whatever you think of Perfect golf, their controller Swing has a lot more granularity you can directly input and manipulate with your finger during the swing.
    I maintain that TGC is being held back by some portion of legacy code or early design decisions regarding the loft box and how it all ties together on the back end. It may be a huge pain to fix but I hope they take the time to do it for the benefit of the platform moving forward into the future.
    And just to be clear, I am saying all this from a place of wanting the game to be of interest to me.
    It is the only game being developed anymore and so I have a particular interest in it getting better and better and moving to the next generation, whatever that might look like.
    Contrary to some opinion above, I am not being negative but just venting frustrations about why I don’t want to play the game as it is and how I really hope it can be a lot more interesting in the future so I could perhaps be a customer again.
    I am not alone in some of these thoughts by way
    scagwi
    And just to be clear, I am saying all this from
    It is the only game being developed anymore and so I have a particular interest in it getting better and better and moving to the next generation, whatever that might look like.

    I doubt we're going to see TGC going next generation, their next game is probably going to be their last hourra. Too many different demands of what a golf sim should be, too many people getting angry and slamming HB for just about everything. They're going to give up just like EA, it's just not worth the trouble for the few TGC games they're selling.
    bigkev
    I doubt we're going to see TGC going next generation, their next game is probably going to be their last hourra. Too many different demands of what a golf sim should be, too many people getting angry and slamming HB for just about everything. They're going to give up just like EA, it's just not worth the trouble for the few TGC games they're selling.

    Think so 'eh?
    I do sense something changed in the last 6 months since the last update. I don't see why you'd strap on "2019" to the name if not going the annual release method. That said, 2019 isn't over and perhaps a 2020 game could be announced or release this Fall.
    As we've all said around here, I wish they'd punt on any annual release stuff and focus on building out a base over time. I'd even advocate they go for the subscription model. More people would go for it than forums and the complainers would lead one to believe.
    You can't base a business and decisions around the stingy, loud, usually over vocal minority.
    I'm sure they're planning a game for 2020, but the list of demands is huge. Career mode is very basic, not interesting and was supposed to be a big selling point with the PGA license. Multiplayers is a mess and just about everybody is complaining about it, then there's all the little things everybody complains about in the swing mechanic. And there's the bugs. And to top it all, the course creators are complaining all the time they're not getting all the tools to spit out courses from texture, pot bunkers, etc, a long list of laundry. And they're complaining that golfers are hitting the ball too long and making some of their courses obsolete. Others are complaining the game is too hard because they want a golf game, not a sim. Then you've got others always complaining it's way too easy for a sim, and it's never going to be hard enough until they can't break 80 anymore.
    After reading so many writing they're not planning to buy the next game day 1, and some just plainly encouraging others to vote with their wallet... it doesn't look good for the future. It's deja vu all over again like with EA.
    OnlookerDelay
    Lots of good points in this post. In spite of all of its shortcomings, I find myself enjoying TGC 2019 as much now as I did after its last update in December. I'm actually steadily getting worse at the game over the last four months, but finding that I'm enjoying it more. It brings out the same reactions I have to missed shots, especially putts, that I have in real life.
    I feel the challenge of the game now more than I did early on, but I must confess that part of it is due to my declining skills with it.
    I don't know what HB Studios direction is with this game right now. They communicate so little any more that it's difficult to gauge what direction they're going with it. I think they need to target common, non golf playing customers with the default settings for the game and call it "Amateur". Make it play slightly harder than the current game plays with Beginner clubs, increase the club carry distances to something more akin to what Master club carry distances are now, with an overswing option that has some risk/reward added.
    They should also have an option for "Pro" play, where we have something akin to the current Master club difficulty, with hooks and slices that are determined more by swing path, and pushes and pulls that are determined by tempo. That would make the swing mechanic feel more intuitive to the IRL golfers who play the game. This mode also needs to scale back the loft box, and figure out a way to make the swing power more scaleable to the stick movement. It's next to impossible to modulate a 90% full swing, for example.
    Meanwhile, I've got a game I enjoy and one that I'm pretty sure will keep me entertained until the next one comes along. The quality of the new courses that are coming out now from users is incredible! This LiDAR tool kit that Chad Golf has put out there free, for the PC version owners is working wonders, IMO!

    Not to bring the thread off topic. Had no idea about the LiDAR, VERY tempted to Recreate my home course. Seems pretty complicated though. Gonna do some research on it.
    This may bring new life to the game for me.
    jbd345
    Not to bring the thread off topic. Had no idea about the LiDAR, VERY tempted to Recreate my home course. Seems pretty complicated though. Gonna do some research on it.
    This may bring new life to the game for me.

    Here's a link to TGC Designer Tools and Real Course Recreation Lidar Import. There's a lot of helpful information here. Chad's app supports Overhead Street Map view data imports as well, provided you've got OSM data available for the course you have in mind.
    https://golfsimulatorforum.com/forum/golf-simulator-brands-and-types/the-golf-club/course-design/184973-introducing-tgc-designer-tools-and-real-course-recreation-lidar-import
    So NHL 20 is coming out in September.
    It’s a “new” game.
    NOT!!
    It’s garbage and the same old same old.
    I won’t be buying.
    This is why I HOPE that TGC does NOT release a yearly game.
    Take your time, take all the time you need HB and when you do release a new game, keep it fresh.
    Do NOT be like EA... recycled garbage titles for full price. It’s an insult.
    The Golf Club 2019 has enough good in it to hold its legs for long time, so take yours.
    lions67
    So NHL 20 is coming out in September.
    It’s a “new” game.
    NOT!!
    It’s garbage and the same old same old.
    I won’t be buying.
    This is why I HOPE that TGC does NOT release a yearly game.
    Take your time, take all the time you need HB and when you do release a new game, keep it fresh.
    Do NOT be like EA... recycled garbage titles for full price. It’s an insult.
    The Golf Club 2019 has enough good in it to hold its legs for long time, so take yours.

    It’s not an annual release problem with NHL, it’s an EA and business model and direction issue.
    They could take two years off between releases and be just as likely to put as little effort into these NHL games as they have been.
    I think they mailed it in this particular year just to already start work on the next GEN console versions, which hopefully don’t get totally gutted like 2015 did.
    scagwi
    It’s not an annual release problem with NHL, it’s an EA and business model and direction issue.
    They could take two years off between releases and be just as likely to put as little effort into these NHL games as they have been.
    I think they mailed it in this particular year just to already start work on the next GEN console versions, which hopefully don’t get totally gutted like 2015 did.

    Well they won’t be fooling me again.
    I’ve had enough.
    Now I will wait them out until a truly new and fresh game come out.
    EA is the devil.
    I doubt EA cares that much, when they're not going to sell enough NHL games, they will just stop doing them like they did with golf, tennis, etc. They're making tons of money with other games that this new generation of gamers are playing. Soon, very few sport games will be made. More and more, they're a thing of the past. Instead of being fleeced by EA for a hockey game, it's going to be by 2K or some small studios like HB trying their best to make a hockey game.
    bigkev
    I doubt EA cares that much, when they're not going to sell enough NHL games, they will just stop doing them like they did with golf, tennis, etc. They're making tons of money with other games that this new generation of gamers are playing. Soon, very few sport games will be made. More and more, they're a thing of the past. Instead of being fleeced by EA for a hockey game, it's going to be by 2K or some small studios like HB trying their best to make a hockey game.

    I would LOVE to see another company take a shot at the NHL games!!.... San Diego Studios immediately come to mind for me.
    scagwi
    I know you two may disagree but I think they should completely scrap everything about their swing and start over if that’s what it takes to reduce or eliminate the loft box.
    I’d love for the swing to be much more about pre-shot set up of your stance and open and closing the club face and where the ball is in your stance etc.
    Again I know you will disagree with this part but to somebody who is not a fan of the game as is I just found the tempo thing to be a tacked on effort to try to make things more interesting and varied when really the swing just needs more granularity and simplification straight from what the analog stick is giving to the game to work with.

    I agree that the swing should be rebuilt in this game. Its current modeling of the swing not as analogous to a real golf as it could be. The idea that tempo has far more to do with whether a ball hooks or slices, over swing path, is hard to swallow. HBS does it this way because they feel they can mitigate the zero axis controllers this way. It does, but it feels wonky in the way it does it. I think you have to design the game for those who aren't going to mod their controllers to play the game in a sporting manner.
    I keep playing the game because there are at least multiple dimensions that have to be managed during the swing: tempo and swing path, even though they aren't realistically implemented. They are still challenging and they keep me from grooving every shot just enough to allow me to check my instincts at the door and adopt this otherworldly physics model while I play the game. It's almost embarrassing for me to say that I can tolerate this warped model enough to enjoy the game as it is, but that's what it is :(
    You may have seen the poll in the official forum where I asked the forum readers how they'd like to see tempo and swing path modeled in the swing. Surprisingly, by a 4 1/2% margin, the top choice was to leave it as it currently stands, where swing path determines only push/pull, and tempo affects hook/slice!? It's like having a bad politician representing the voters, quite often they will vote them back in because the given politician is at least a known commodity. People seemingly would prefer not to have to deal with something new.
    I agree that pre-shot setup, without relying on loft and side-spin boxes, should affect the shot. Here again though, HB Studios seems to be married to this precision laser bombing tool when it comes to shot setup. I should not be able to add or take away 8% of a club's carry by how much I loft or de-loft a club with the kind of accuracy this game affords. I'd prefer to have to proportionally control my swing power with a stick motion that properly read and imparted the amount of travel I placed on it during my backswing. Today's PCs can read the stick travel with more granularity than TGC 2 and 2019 represent. JNPG's stick swing has already proven that.
    OnlookerDelay
    I agree that the swing should be rebuilt in this game. Its current modeling of the swing not as analogous to a real golf as it could be. The idea that tempo has far more to do with whether a ball hooks or slices, over swing path, is hard to swallow. HBS does it this way because they feel they can mitigate the zero axis controllers this way. It does, but it feels wonky in the way it does it. I think you have to design the game for those who aren't going to mod their controllers to play the game in a sporting manner.
    I keep playing the game because there are at least multiple dimensions that have to be managed during the swing: tempo and swing path, even though they aren't realistically implemented. They are still challenging and they keep me from grooving every shot just enough to allow me to check my instincts at the door and adopt this otherworldly physics model while I play the game. It's almost embarrassing for me to say that I can tolerate this warped model enough to enjoy the game as it is, but that's what it is :(
    You may have seen the poll in the official forum where I asked the forum readers how they'd like to see tempo and swing path modeled in the swing. Surprisingly, by a 4 1/2% margin, the top choice was to leave it as it currently stands, where swing path determines only push/pull, and tempo affects hook/slice!? It's like having a bad politician representing the voters, quite often they will vote them back in because the given politician is at least a known commodity. People seemingly would prefer not to have to deal with something new.
    I agree that pre-shot setup, without relying on loft and side-spin boxes, should affect the shot. Here again though, HB Studios seems to be married to this precision laser bombing tool when it comes to shot setup. I should not be able to add or take away 8% of a club's carry by how much I loft or de-loft a club with the kind of accuracy this game affords. I'd prefer to have to proportionally control my swing power with a stick motion that properly read and imparted the amount of travel I placed on it during my backswing. Today's PCs can read the stick travel with more granularity than TGC 2 and 2019 represent. JNPG's stick swing has already proven that.

    All of what you're saying makes good sense to me. We're just not all that good at swinging perfectly so as far as competition goes, it works for us. I get into patterns where it's very difficult to have perfect tempo on enough shots to shoot lights out, whereas apparently a bunch of other people can. Plus, staying on-plane as it were eludes us enough as well.
    Why is this 'warped otherworldly physics' used by HBS, over something more similar to what a real life golf swing is? Something to do with mitigating 'zero-axis' controllers? How do they work?
    Seems to me the goal should be, somehow (apparently JNPG did it?), to mimic what we do in RL golf: club face position relative to perpendicular to the swing path, moving the ball left and right (forward/back) in your stance. These are what we do to control ball flight in RL golf. And in the golf shop, we can re-shaft to affect launch angle, etc.
    I think you are spot on w/ regard to committing to make the swing work for players who don't look for workaround cheats to improve their playing ability. Anyone who cheats to win in a golf sim, is not a GOLFER, but is a garden variety CHEATER! That is the antithesis of the spirit of golf.
    ncp10
    I think you are spot on w/ regard to committing to make the swing work for players who don't look for workaround cheats to improve their playing ability. Anyone who cheats to win in a golf sim, is not a GOLFER, but is a garden variety CHEATER! That is the antithesis of the spirit of golf.

    They're gamers playing a video game, not a golfer playing a sim. And sadly, they will always be there because the only aim for a gamer is to win. And many of those have the mentality that if you're not trying to cheat, you're not trying to win.
    bigkev
    They're gamers playing a video game, not a golfer playing a sim. And sadly, they will always be there because the only aim for a gamer is to win. And many of those have the mentality that if you're not trying to cheat, you're not trying to win.

    If the biggest quotient of buyers of golf sims is gamers, then it looks fairly hopeless. Robust online tournaments are part of what could give the sim some staying power, yet this is the domain of gamers I guess. I still think if you look long term enough it may still make the most sense to be the golf sim that simulates golf the best even if there are gamers who will exploit its vulnerabilities. They will do what they do, but for the 'serious' golf simmers dedicated to authenticity and fair play, I'd like to see TGC strive to meet the needs of this subset of buyers.
    I'm still surprised there isn't more demand. Golf is an addictive activities in the real world and the virtual one. The most recent worldwide estimate of total golfers is in the realm of 60,000,000. For comparison there are only about 600,000 airplane pilots worldwide and yet the flight sim industry is very robust with a slew of 3rd party content developers and 3 or 4 main platforms for home flight simmers, some of which are real pilots, some wannabes.
    I’d be curious to know more about the source for the 60 million golfers number, as well as how many are actually active and their age demographic.
    I’m wondering if there just isn’t much overlap between real life golfer and gamer, especially with age factored in.
    I sort of dismiss a comparison with flight simulation because the capabilities for what you can do and the potential reach there is so much wider than a golf game. FS can be used in actually practical ways relative to real life in terms of safety and training also. I’m a pilot myself and that’s one way I use it.
    scagwi
    I’d be curious to know more about the source for the 60 million golfers number, as well as how many are actually active and their age demographic.
    I’m wondering if there just isn’t much overlap between real life golfer and gamer, especially with age factored in.

    Clearly the overlap in RL v sim golfer is not very big, but this IMO isn't necessarily they way it could be. Golf has a very addictive quality which drives a lot of players from weekend hackers to scratch players and everyone in between. I think a lot of these folks just don't know what they're missing because they haven't considered golf simulation or they see "gaming" as somehow a surrogate for the real thing, and that this is undesireable. I think it's unfortunate for them! They might play solitaire on their laptop but they don't see golf as something that can mimic RL golf in many ways.
    Is this a surmountable issue? I doubt it since golf sims do not seem to gaining popularity. And it will be the younger 'sticks' who might be playing. If more older golfers knew how much fun this can be it could catch on more. As for 60M golfers that is going to be 100% based on criteria for inclusion and my guess it is loose. But out of going on 8 billion people now I think it's plausible 60M might identify as being a golfer, even if it means they've played once.
    i just hope HBS slows down the development and works on the swing and fine tuning a few more things. They'll bail on it if they see it as something that needs major releases every year in order to stay alive. Because there are no missions in golf sims it's possible to enjoy playing the same sim for a decade, whereas that's less the case in non-sports games. I'd love to see legacy swings allowed, and new swings that better emulate analogue swing physics. Even old TW2004 offered 3 different swing methods, but on PC.
    ncp10
    Clearly the overlap in RL v sim golfer is not very big, but this IMO isn't necessarily they way it could be. Golf has a very addictive quality which drives a lot of players from weekend hackers to scratch players and everyone in between. I think a lot of these folks just don't know what they're missing because they haven't considered golf simulation or they see "gaming" as somehow a surrogate for the real thing.

    Just about all of the members in my rl country club don't even have a console, and couldn't care less about a sim or gaming. Not even on PC. When the golf season is done, they're starting curling. And most not curling, they're going golfing in Florida or Arizona. Snowbirds there for 6 months.
    And the young folks, they're just not golfing anymore. They're all playing soldiers with paintball. Those places are jammed pack all the time. No wonder so many are playing those Call of Duty and Battlefield games. No time for a company like EA to spend resources to sell less than 1M copies of a golf game with nit-picky gamers and simmers when they can sell over 7M copies of a Battlefield game.
    I agree BigKev
    The reality is those of us in this thread can sit here and argue about it all day long but what games are being developed and how they are doing it, speaks for itself.
    Most of these big companies are not stupid and trust me they’d be making golf (and other sports) games if there was really a viable market here to be had.
    I mean hell we are in the thread for TGC, which is currently the last hope, and we don’t even know if they’re going to make a game this year or any more in the future at all.
    I do agree they shouldn’t do annual releases but I don’t understand why they called it the 2019 game if they were not going to.
    I should add that I have been playing golf games literally since the very start of the 90s…
    But I play with a family member who is in his 80s now, and when he is gone at some point, hopefully not anytime soon, I will probably be gone from golf games forever myself also.
    This is not a genre of a game I particularly “love” unless I’m playing with him and chatting at the same time.
    I've had a recent rekindling of affection for TGC 2019. I don't know whether the game is getting harder or my skills are eroding, but there's a new challenge to the game that's beating me down in a variety of ways. I was leading a Society tournament yesterday after shooting a 60 in round on. This was TPC at Deere Run. I go out to play round 2 and can't hit a putt straight, and miss flat birdie putt after flat birdie putt, because I'm pulling or pushing every putt... it was humiliating; but I LOVED it. I wound up shooting a 72 in round two, and fell to 6th place.
    It's experiences like this, along with a steady supply of high quality user made courses that will likely keep me playing this game until the next one comes out, even if that happens to be next year, like I suspect it will be.
    Lol
    JC, I love you man.
    Truly. Your optimism and positive vibes are always refreshing.
    HB should hire you as an Admin at the forum. You’d handle all the questions and negative tones much better than their mods have I think.
    At this point that game is what it is obviously.
    I think people already enjoying it will continue to enjoy it, and those of us not playing at all are unlikely to be compelled to start with no updates and no news and their Soviet style forum moderation, which is pretty disheartening. I feel for the longtime people simply asking for some clarity.
    When you name the game “something something 2019”, you should expect people to be curious about why there is no news about 2020. That’s common sense.
    OnlookerDelay

    It's experiences like this, along with a steady supply of high quality user made courses that will likely keep me playing this game until the next one comes out, even if that happens to be next year, like I suspect it will be.

    You are making the case the game is good enough already and what I mean by that is you will be able to continue playing it, just like w/ RLG you'll never master it to the level of the ridiculous and if it gets to that--turn off the green grid, amp up the wind, etc.. As long as developers believe they have to churn out new versions every year or even every 2 they're destined to fade away permanently as the market isn't there for golf sims, at least not at the moment. Whereas if they looked at it as something to keep alive on the back burner and do a significant release 4-5y after the debut of 2019 I still think this is a viable compromise to throwing in the towel. I'm just saying this is their only hope, and ours too. Make a statement to the golf sim world however small it is that this is where they are headed. They can publish the goals of the release, and this will likely help current players like yourself to stay tuned and stay with it. They've done such a lovely job with it already, there's room for improvement of course, but stretching this out to 4-5y lets this be a project with a lot of well thought thru planning time, listening to the golf sim community, and adding features with real value, and plenty of time to do it in. I just hate to see them throw all of this work out the window for lack of a vision for how to do it with the unique issues it has to deal with to make it successful *enough*.
    scagwi
    I should add that I have been playing golf games literally since the very start of the 90s…This is not a genre of a game I particularly “love” unless I’m playing with him and chatting at the same time.

    Interesting juxtaposition--played golf games going on 30y but somehow not a genre of a game you particularly love. I'm sorry :ohno:
    ncp10
    Interesting juxtaposition--played golf games going on 30y but somehow not a genre of a game you particularly love. I'm sorry :ohno:

    Honestly - that is a really frustrating reply NCP
    The explanation, I thought I’d articulated, but either way it’s literally right in what you quoted of mine.
    But...You chopped the very important middle context out of my post. Read and quote it in its entirety, and your thought/post is addressed.
    My love for it is really as much if not more about the socialization and bonding with my relative through the playing.
    In the past 30 years, I essentially never play any golf games when it’s not with him and live chatting. The first 10 years we still lived near each other and played side by side at his place.
    Gameplay stuff aside, this is the biggest reason we never got into TGC. At first the multiplayer was a mess, but ultimately it’s too confusing for him to figure out with no lobby and he’s hundreds of miles away. It’s just hard to troubleshoot with his dimensia and my remote location etc... We have really settled in nicely with PG and he understands it all and it’s been mostly ok getting him pointed in the right direction when astray - sometimes requiring a quick FaceTime - but mostly ok
    Sorry, you just hit a nerve here. Virtual golf for me has tracked a lifetime arc relationship that’s really important to me. It’s never been about the golf games themselves. That’s just been the conduit...and I’m sadly nearing the end of all this with him and it bums me out.
    scagwi
    Lol
    HB should hire you as an Admin at the forum. You’d handle all the questions and negative tones much better than their mods have I think.

    It wouldn't last long, I'd reinstate ADX, Stopits Here, and Dusty Roads and it would get too hot in the kitchen for them. Those guys all brought a needed element to what a forum needs, AFAIC, but I do get how they all "violate" the terms of service.
    When you name the game “something something 2019”, you should expect people to be curious about why there is no news about 2020. That’s common sense.

    I've finally come to grips with the idea that this is the new MO for that forum. It's a mere shadow now of what it was prior to Anthony Kyne's departure. I would expect a 2020 release myself. Maybe they're going to Codemaster's model for their F1 racing games, where they release them in the same year as the title date. For example, F1-2019 gets released next week... a half year into the title year? Who knows, but at some point I'm hoping they'll surprise me with something??
    ncp10
    You are making the case the game is good enough already and what I mean by that is you will be able to continue playing it, just like w/ RLG you'll never master it to the level of the ridiculous and if it gets to that--turn off the green grid, amp up the wind, etc.. As long as developers believe they have to churn out new versions every year or even every 2 they're destined to fade away permanently as the market isn't there for golf sims, at least not at the moment. Whereas if they looked at it as something to keep alive on the back burner and do a significant release 4-5y after the debut of 2019 I still think this is a viable compromise to throwing in the towel. I'm just saying this is their only hope, and ours too. Make a statement to the golf sim world however small it is that this is where they are headed. They can publish the goals of the release, and this will likely help current players like yourself to stay tuned and stay with it. They've done such a lovely job with it already, there's room for improvement of course, but stretching this out to 4-5y lets this be a project with a lot of well thought thru planning time, listening to the golf sim community, and adding features with real value, and plenty of time to do it in. I just hate to see them throw all of this work out the window for lack of a vision for how to do it with the unique issues it has to deal with to make it successful *enough*.

    I personally don't think the game is good enough already, I'm trying to say that I find it playable in its current state, but also recognizing the fact that it could be so much better. I don't think they need to be on a yearly release date cycle as that fosters substandard products, so often. If they could average a new release every 30 months, that would be fine, as long as they provided essential updates in between.
    OnlookerDelay
    If they could average a new release every 30 months, that would be fine, as long as they provided essential updates in between.

    Kind of the problem right now. Both HBS and 2K are in the business to make money, so it's 2 or 3 patches and all the devs $$$ are going to the next game.
    scagwi
    Honestly - that is a really frustrating reply NCP
    The explanation, I thought I’d articulated, but either way it’s literally right in what you quoted of mine.
    But...You chopped the very important middle context out of my post. Read and quote it in its entirety, and your thought/post is addressed.
    My love for it is really as much if not more about the socialization and bonding with my relative through the playing.
    In the past 30 years, I essentially never play any golf games when it’s not with him and live chatting. The first 10 years we still lived near each other and played side by side at his place.
    Gameplay stuff aside, this is the biggest reason we never got into TGC. At first the multiplayer was a mess, but ultimately it’s too confusing for him to figure out with no lobby and he’s hundreds of miles away. It’s just hard to troubleshoot with his dimensia and my remote location etc... We have really settled in nicely with PG and he understands it all and it’s been mostly ok getting him pointed in the right direction when astray - sometimes requiring a quick FaceTime - but mostly ok
    Sorry, you just hit a nerve here. Virtual golf for me has tracked a lifetime arc relationship that’s really important to me. It’s never been about the golf games themselves. That’s just been the conduit...and I’m sadly nearing the end of all this with him and it bums me out.

    I'm sorry your nerve was sensitive enough to be hit--I meant nothing by it whatsoever I just thought it was a funny juxtaposition is all, and I understood what you were saying about your relationship. Glad you have a venue to have a relationship with your relative it's how my brother and I visit as well since we live 1200m apart. We spent a lot of time growing up together and playing RL golf as well as riding motorcycles and generally trying to have a good time whenever possible! Whomever survives the first death will undoubtedly miss our matches which have been 80% competition and 20% visiting. We play on average one 18 hole 5x/week. I don't play the game much now that I've learned it on the career mode. The live play is more fun but the career play is still fun as a practice venue for live play.
    I think the game is phenomenal for what it is and what it costs, and can see using it for 10 years even in the condition it's in. I love level of challenge in it and I'm not sure I'll get too much better. Course graphics are very good. The level of depth in the course architect must be nothing short of huge when I look at some of the coastline terrain and rocks work. Cypress Point is nothing short of fabulous! Online play w/ my steady partner has been flawless once we understood how to sync up. Turn Mode on and off both have value depending on the time you have. The shadowing w/ clouds which sync with wind speed and direction is great. Putting w/o the grid is really fabulous. These greens are almost readable w/o the measuring cursor and our PPH are now approaching right where it should be for tour level putting and I can't see it getting too much better w/ how much we play. We have vivid imaginations and easily *feel* like we are playing RL golf--in this regard we are very blessed. Others might see this and conclude we have low standards since we see all the good in TGC 2019. I'll take the blessing thanks. This is the dis thread for TGC most of the time it seems, most always focusing on its shortcomings. Maybe it gets that way after a while--we've only played maybe 100 18 hole rounds so far and still enjoy the heck out of it. But we played TW2004 for a decade and still enjoyed our matches there as well.
    bigkev
    Kind of the problem right now. Both HBS and 2K are in the business to make money, so it's 2 or 3 patches and all the devs $$$ are going to the next game.

    I don't know where the point of diminishing returns is reached on this for HBS. It depends to an extent on how far over the horizon their next release is. I have no idea what they have planned, but we may all have an epiphany when we finally see what they're doing with their next installment, if any. They're being very mysterious and secretive about it, which sort of makes me think they've got something more radical in the offing.
    OnlookerDelay
    I don't know where the point of diminishing returns is reached on this for HBS. It depends to an extent on how far over the horizon their next release is. I have no idea what they have planned, but we may all have an epiphany when we finally see what they're doing with their next installment, if any. They're being very mysterious and secretive about it, which sort of makes me think they've got something more radical in the offing.

    New engine perhaps? Surly 2k would be able to provide that. Not saying frostbite quality or nba 2k, but anything would be an upgrade over what they use now. Also don’t remember any golf game or pga licensed games releasing past July. Not getting my hopes up for anything this year.
    jbd345
    New engine perhaps?

    Not after what I read from Executive Producer, Shaun West concerning this on Tuesday in the official forum:
    "One thing I will jump in and confirm because I have seen it all over the place, is people talking about TGC in regard to needing a new engine. There is nothing wrong with Unity at all. Limitations to visual improvements, which I believe is the source of these comments, comes down to the number of resources available and the timeline of the project, same as any other feature development. There will be limitations with any engine that is used, there isn't a single one that 'does it all', but we have barely scratched the surface of what this engine is capable of and it's only getting better with each and every update we receive. I don't expect we will shift away from Unity in any short time frame. As the old saying goes, "Rome wasn't built in a day".
    http://www.hb-studios.com/forum/index.php/topic,28571.msg343156.html#msg343156
    Also don’t remember any golf game or pga licensed games releasing past July. Not getting my hopes up for anything this year.

    If there is something radical going on, I'd guess that it would be with the PGA TOUR license. How far that could possibly extend, up to including a dozen or so likenesses of PGA TOUR players, like EA Sports used to do, and a more extensive library of licensed PGA TOUR courses, I don't know? Maybe we'll have something like an AI player creator, that allows us to customize the appearance, swing, and skill & performance attributes of our created players?
    scagwi
    I wish they would say something about the swing.

    I do as well, I think they have the effects of swing path and tempo bass ackwards in the swing mechanic.
    I should add... (I got called to my turn at the solon when this post got interrupted, so it was incomplete) that they need to figure out what proportionality means in terms of stick feel when playing partial shots on normal shots and particularly pitch shots. They were closer with this in TGC 1 than they are now!?

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