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NBA 2K21 Gameplay Director, Mike Wang, Answers Gameplay Questions on Twitter (Here's the Wrap Up)

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NBA 2K21

NBA 2K21 Gameplay Director, Mike Wang, Answers Gameplay Questions on Twitter (Here's the Wrap Up)

For those of you that missed out on the NBA 2K21 gameplay blog, posted earlier today, from gameplay directory Mike Wang, you can read it here.

For everyone else, Mike (@beluba) answered plenty of questions on the topic, as he returned to Twitter with a flurry of responses. We’ve wrapped them all up in one news post for you to take in. Enjoy and let’s hear your thoughts.

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  1. CaVsFaN2273
    - The Intimidator badge has been nerfed for NBA 2K21.
    https://twitter.com/Beluba/status/1293926198678962176
    - Dribbling on current-gen and next-gen will be mostly the same.
    https://twitter.com/Beluba/status/1293923695203766276
    - You can still use the button and be very successful. The pro stick just has a wider skill gap. Some will do better with it in comparison, but some will shoot a ton of airballs. My advice is to try both and see what fits you better.
    https://twitter.com/Beluba/status/1293922417782321152
    - Non-shooting builds who don't upgrade shooting attributes will actually struggle to shoot this year.
    https://twitter.com/Beluba/status/1293931094564196352
    - Next-gen MyPlayer builds, badges, and takeovers aren’t the same as current-gen so the saves aren’t compatible.
    https://twitter.com/Beluba/status/1293929399708839938
    - There are more jump shooting fouls when you make contact with the shooter on bad/late contests this year.
    https://twitter.com/Beluba/status/1293925024118607874
    - Everything in today's NBA 2K21 Current-Gen Gameplay blog also applies to Next-Gen, with more news to come.
    https://twitter.com/Beluba/status/1293921447849541632
    - The key to making layups with the Pro Stick this year = instead of holding the stick to the left or right, hold it the direction you want for a brief moment then quickly rotate it toward 12 o’clock to find the ideal aim point.
    https://twitter.com/Beluba/status/1293932926732705792
    - Pro Stick shooting will give a bigger boost than shooting with the meter off.
    https://twitter.com/Beluba/status/1293926685813792771
    - Mike Wang says he wanted to create a skill gap for slashers this year. If you can master pro stick layups, you’ll have a much better chance finishing at the rim contested and through contact.
    https://twitter.com/Beluba/status/1293937363714895872
    - For wide open layups, you can basically ignore timing and aiming and still make it.
    https://twitter.com/Beluba/status/1293936424924770305
    - The goal is for you to have to be at least in the mid to high 70’s to be a decent threat (at shooting). If people are consistently hitting as a 51, I’ll make a hotfix
    https://twitter.com/Beluba/status/1293934362317033472
    Nice collections
    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
    exposedaking
    Those layup mechanics sounds like NBA Elite. I really hope that's not the case. Hopefully someone can clarify.
    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

    so is it like a mini game of sorts? i’d use it if we can aim without a meter or target.
    jeebs9
    THANK YOU!!!!
    I've sadly stop playing because of it. I know some think I'm being dramatic . But it really killed me inside to know a shot was going in after the release. Almost like some code was written in the background just to press my buttons. Blue Pill or Red pill

    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

    I’ve been against this since it was announced. I am just disappointed it says CPUs and nothing about users.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Jrocc23
    I’ve been against this since it was announced. I am just disappointed it says CPUs and nothing about users.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Ahhhh I see.... Take my excitement back...... I'm back to level one. Give us the option!?
    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
    jeebs9
    Ahhhh I see.... Take my excitement back...... I'm back to level one. Give us the option!?
    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk

    I would settle for the option but I honestly wish it was just completely gone. Maybe I am being selfish, but if people keep theirs on, I still don’t want them seeing if I greened or not lol.
    I really wish Mike would give his reason of it being a good idea of it being in because people “fake greening” is a horrible reason.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Jrocc23
    I would settle for the option but I honestly wish it was just completely gone. Maybe I am being selfish, but if people keep theirs on, I still don’t want them seeing if I greened or not lol.
    I really wish Mike would give his reason of it being a good idea of it being in because people “fake greening” is a horrible reason.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Horrible is an understatement
    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
    So I play offline mostly. But I don't really understand how this shot stick is going to work. Most people are going to just continue to use button timing for shooting because it's easier, so why would you put yourself at a disadvantage by using the stick? Wouldn't it make sense to disable button shooting in competitive modes and make everyone use the stick?
    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
    XtremeDunkz
    Most people are going to just continue to use button timing for shooting because it's easier, so why would you put yourself at a disadvantage by using the stick?

    I think the point is that the using the stick GIVES you an advantage. The button is the easier, low floor but low ceiling option. The stick has more boom / bust potential, and youll get more boom the better you get with the stick.
    Jrocc23
    I would settle for the option but I honestly wish it was just completely gone. Maybe I am being selfish, but if people keep theirs on, I still don’t want them seeing if I greened or not lol.
    I really wish Mike would give his reason of it being a good idea of it being in because people “fake greening” is a horrible reason.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    read the comments under his tweet to find your answer. one guy said that irl the defense doesn’t know if a shot is going in you should play the possession out..they attacked him lol.
    Jrocc23
    I would settle for the option but I honestly wish it was just completely gone. Maybe I am being selfish, but if people keep theirs on, I still don’t want them seeing if I greened or not lol.
    I really wish Mike would give his reason of it being a good idea of it being in because people “fake greening” is a horrible reason.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    It's nowhere near to any reason, but it's true and it's just to cater those kids and show that he listens, that's it.
    loso_34
    read the comments under his tweet to find your answer. one guy said that irl the defense doesn’t know if a shot is going in you should play the possession out..they attacked him lol.

    So basically James Harden defense?At the risk of sounding like an old man,like 90% of the league plays terrible lazy defense anymore, that's part of why games become so high scoring.
    Personally I'll take a Dennis Rodman type that plays at full effort every second on defense until the whistle blows over that every time.
    TheFinalEvent97
    2K claiming that low rated shooters won't be able to hit consistently? I heard that for 16-20 and it was never true, hopefully this time it is.

    It might be....until he starts caving and making shooting easier.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I'm actually surprised that the RS options are available competitively. Usually online players are locked in to those type of changes. For offline guys it's BAU.
    Really nothing to complain about as long as we have options...
    Going to give the stick a try though...I still don't 100% get it but it's intriguing. A half circle motion for a layup sounds crazy but I won't knock it until I try it on the 24fh.
    Seems to confirm slow layups are returning though, for the sake of timing.
    I wonder if jumpshots in general have been sped up.
    jfsolo
    I know that it sucks for the online Sim players who don't want to see greens that they seemingly are still forced to see them, but as an offline player, I am ecstatic that sanity has returned in this regard.
    I hit a green Release on a game winning buzzer beater. Why would anyone in the world want to see that? It's either greens aren't 100 or remove the splash. It's be 100% What a mode killer.....
    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
    jeebs9
    I hit a green Release on a game winning buzzer beater. Why would anyone in the world want to see that? It's either greens aren't 100 or remove the splash. It's be 100% What a mode killer.....
    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
    I get not wanting to see your opponents meter, but you've been able to see your own green releases since the meter has been a thing havent you? Can't you turn your own meter off?
    I actually don't mind it for myself....I just dont want to see everyone else's.
    MrWrestling3
    Glad to hear about changes to Intimidator.Hopefully they get rid of the AoE Bubble and just make your shot contests more effective.
    That's what it SHOULD have done in the first place. Having AOE was a dumb idea.
    XtremeDunkz
    So I play offline mostly. But I don't really understand how this shot stick is going to work. Most people are going to just continue to use button timing for shooting because it's easier, so why would you put yourself at a disadvantage by using the stick? Wouldn't it make sense to disable button shooting in competitive modes and make everyone use the stick?
    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
    Personally, I was always a fan on the shot stick. I love having the ability to have so much control over of my shot.
    ksuttonjr76
    That's what it SHOULD have done in the first place. Having AOE was a dumb idea.

    Yep, I don't mind giving access to better shot contest animations and maybe having a small effect when contesting from behind.Guys short arming it because I'm standing within 8 feet even though I'm in no position to present an actual threat was a bad idea.
    Mike Wang must think we're all a bunch of morons. What in the world prevents him from enacting half of these hot fixes he's saying will be in 2k21?
    "Intimidator will be nerfed"
    "More jump shooting fouls when you make contact"
    "Mid 70s to be consistent 3pt shooter"
    There is no reason these aren't already in 2K20. Especially the 3pt shooting tweet. Every god **** year this guy says he's nerfing 3pt shooting and masquerades it as an improvement when everyone and their mother knows whenever he does that he'll cave to an onslaught of tweets from arcade park players and boost the sliders. Or they'll have those stupid mini-games again where you have to mash X once a week for 5 minutes to unlock a +5 shooting boost. What a joke.
    MrWrestling3
    Yep, I don't mind giving access to better shot contest animations and maybe having a small effect when contesting from behind.Guys short arming it because I'm standing within 8 feet even though I'm in no position to present an actual threat was a bad idea.

    ksuttonjr76
    That's what it SHOULD have done in the first place. Having AOE was a dumb idea.

    I disagree with this. Certain shot-blockers do affect shooters without even actively contesting shots. Just knowing that Rudy Gobert or Hassan Whiteside are in the area can and does make players re-think their shots and in some likelihood negatively affect their rhythm.
    It should be a very short range, not the eight feet that was mentioned, but it should still be a thing. It just makes sense. If it was broken in gameplay, don't blame the concept itself and try to claim it's not logical.
    The 24th Letter
    I get not wanting to see your opponents meter, but you've been able to see your own green releases since the meter has been a thing havent you? Can't you turn your own meter off?
    I actually don't mind it for myself....I just dont want to see everyone else's.

    Nope you can turn off the meter but the green splash still shows. It should be an option to not see green releases at all CPU and/or user.
    The 24th Letter
    I get not wanting to see your opponents meter, but you've been able to see your own green releases since the meter has been a thing havent you? Can't you turn your own meter off?
    I actually don't mind it for myself....I just dont want to see everyone else's.
    Even with meter off, if you green you still see it. Only way to get rid of it is to go Real FG%. Which they broke this year anyway.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app
    stillfeelme
    Nope you can turn off the meter but the green splash still shows. It should be an option to not see green releases at all CPU and/or user.

    It should be an option to completely disable green releases happening in the first place.
    meh...at this point all those are just words that will change through the year after the 10th patch. Update after update we will just quote one of those later in the year. Then you will see comments about "Mike Wang lying" yadda yadda yadda.
    These info drip feed doesn't excite me anymore lol I'm just going to wait for some raw gameplay footage. Might be more fun trying to figure out what's changed rather than read about it lol
    I wish they had tutorial videos or clips to better explain this shot stick. It sounds more complicated than necessary. Shooting a ball irl has less thinking involved.
    RyanFitzmagic
    I disagree with this. Certain shot-blockers do affect shooters without even actively contesting shots. Just knowing that Rudy Gobert or Hassan Whiteside are in the area can and does make players re-think their shots and in some likelihood negatively affect their rhythm.
    It should be a very short range, not the eight feet that was mentioned, but it should still be a thing. It just makes sense. If it was broken in gameplay, don't blame the concept itself and try to claim it's not logical.

    To be clear, I never said the concept itself wasn't logical, rather 2K's implementation is not because it works in situations where it should not.
    I'm fine with an effect when the defender can legitimately get to the ball, it's when players who are standing behind the on ball defender with their back turned to the play,or on the wrong side of a shooter doing a reverse layup using their body and possibly the rim to shield the ball are triggering badges to significantly affect a shot that I have a problem.
    The contesting range in 2K20 was in a pretty good place when the game shipped IMO. ...but the 'hotfixes' start to have a trickle down effect...and messes up the balance the game was intended to have.
    3 months in and a heavily contested shot is as easy as running your defender into or past the shooter again...
    If every mode truly has its own slider set like Mike says, that will be huge. What applies to guys running around with a bunch of stacked badgesand boosts just can't apply to regular NBA players in PNO.
    jkits
    I'm all in for a skill gap...every body steph curry clones now

    and you know why everyone is steph curry? because its sufficient to just time your shot right to have a guaranteed basket. remove the guarantees from the game and there you have your skill gap: who is better at playing basketball (= who has the better shot selection/decision making).
    The more I read about the changes the more I'm convinced this game is becoming more of a "game" than a basketball experience.
    Hopefully daczar can chime in.
    supermati
    The more I read about the changes the more I'm convinced this game is becoming more of a "game" than a basketball experience.
    Hopefully daczar can chime in.
    Yup. And the sad thing is, it's probably the right move. Going by reactions on Twitter and Reddit, it definitely seems like there are a LOT of players who want the game to be more casual and arcadey and less realistic. Look at the Agent 00 stuff on 2kTV. To me, what it sounds like he wants sounds awful to me. But a lot of Twitter and Reddit and nodding along with him doing everything but shout "preach". It seems like the market for the sim experience pales in comparison to the market for the arcade experience.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app
    Well the history suggests that when the demo drops the game will be changed at the very same minute, effective immediate. The end product will be different. That's aside..
    At a competitive stand, in modes like PNO, MLO, MyTeam basically all NBA 5V5 online modes should strictly force just one way of shooting and that seems to be PRO-STICK shooting for NBA 2K21. No other way or options should be given, everyone should be on the same terms in those 5v5 online NBA modes, period.
    You can see this in FIFA with 'tactical defending', none can change to legacy defending on online games.
    Giving too many options to users on competitive scenes give 2k very varied and faulty feedback (and mostly we know feedback coming from twitter that is well, very problematic.) and that causes a lot more headaches for them but if they just force one way as the competitive online way than the mass would stay in line and try to get better with what they have at least for a year.
    And by Pro Stick shooting i don't mean everyone has to shoot with a meter or anything like but everyone has to shoot with direction and timing(which is called Pro Stick Shooting) and the options that can be given to users solely on meter on/off, color selection etc.
    I hope i'm clear enough.
    jk31
    and you know why everyone is steph curry? because its sufficient to just time your shot right to have a guaranteed basket. remove the guarantees from the game and there you have your skill gap: who is better at playing basketball (= who has the better shot selection/decision making).

    How it used to be back in 2K11 and some older 2Ks. Green definitely wasn’t a 100% make. I miss that but sadly don’t think we’ll ever see that again. Everyone is too stuck on greens being automatic make. It’ll be super bad for Mike.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Jrocc23
    How it used to be back in 2K11 and some older 2Ks. Green definitely wasn’t a 100% make. I miss that but sadly don’t think we’ll ever see that again. Everyone is too stuck on greens being automatic make. It’ll be super bad for Mike.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    They could at least give us the option to go back to how it was in 2k11 and some other games (this green = 100% nonsense didn't came until current gen or even later) for offline modes and myleague online.
    jk31
    They could at least give us the option to go back to how it was in 2k11 and some other games (this green = 100% nonsense didn't came until current gen or even later) for offline modes and myleague online.

    Yeah, it didn’t come until I think 2K15? I know he said he regret introducing it but I don’t know why it happened in the first place.
    Using 2K11 again, the shooting %s for players was as close to realistic you can get for a video game back then. I was one of the top ranked players on there and you was considered an elite 3pt shooter shooting 45% from 3. I am pretty sure nobody on 2K11 shot over 50% from 3.
    I know the game in real life has changed but this generation of 2K, shooting 50% from 3 means you’re not that good which is crazy. Just look at the difference of shooting %s from back then to lately.


    EDIT: LOL. Never realized till now the quality was awful on those screens when uploaded here. So I’ll say, back in 2K11 you were in the cream of the crop in shooting if you shot around 43-46%. Like I don’t think nobody shot better than that. The second screen is 2K17. I was shooting damn near 70% from 3. A 30% increase lol. I also wasn’t even a sharpshooter.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Blablabla...lol does anyone believe Mike anymore? The cycle begins again with his twitter advertising and no gameplay proofs before the game is released. I wont be following this s*** this year, Ill just buy the game and see if I like it...
    I actually think the shot stick sounds like a cool idea, especially around the rim. Especially since, if I'm understanding correctly, it's less timing based? That's one of the things I never liked about shooting; when it's timing based things like lag or even just not getting enough sleep the night before can completely mess up your timing.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app
    jfsolo
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-z0oz9fNUk
    Great video by Da_Czar that gives me a positive feeling as an offline player. Sadly, the masses who complain on Twitter will never see it.
    I always enjoy Czar videos. Whether hes going over how to run an offensive set or it's just the hangout, it's always informative. Not that I was concerned before but I am really curious how much more intuitive this configuration may be. Current gen 2K21 is gonna be a test run for me anyway and I've been playing 2K forever the same way so what is there to lose? Czar is much too chill and lowkey to hold the "youtuber" Annoying TV crowd attention; they deserve Ronnie 2K to be honest.
    Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app
    rudyjuly2
    That’s a long video lol. Care to provide some bullet points?

    He preferences his comments by saying that he is a primarily offline player.
    Loves the shot stick implementation, as a 2K player since OG NBA 2K, thinks currently that the stick creates a great challenge for the User vs the AI
    Says that the stick shooting seems really complicated when just hearing about how it works, but after using it for a few games people should be able to get a good feel for it.
    It forces the User to run more offense and hunt for open looks more versus being able to easily defeat the AI because of being great at shot timing.
    Warns shot stick uses to start on pro or risk becoming really frustrated with all the air balls and missed shots that will happen if you try to go right to HOF
    Feels like defense has taken another step forward in the game, but acknowledges that for some very particular hardcore players it still isn't going to be where they want it.
    Know that many fans complain about two man animation sequences, but says that using them is much better than the alternatives in terms of how the game looks and reducing the strain on the CPU caused by using rag doll psychics.
    Wishes that Mike would sometimes be more hardline in forcing players to adjust to new things in the game, but recognizes and understands the compromises that he has to make.
    Laments the fact that online players always complain about a skill gap, but then when something is implemented that will actually create one, they complain that it's too hard and don't want to use the mechanism or want something changed back.
    Says that if one can master the shot stick now, they will stand out as really being a superior player vs someone who is just good at button timing.
    jfsolo
    He preferences his comments by saying that he is a primarily offline player.
    Loves the shot stick implementation, as a 2K player since OG NBA 2K, thinks currently that the stick creates a great challenge for the User vs the AI
    Says that the stick shooting seems really complicated when just hearing about how it works, but after using it for a few games people should be able to get a good feel for it.
    It forces the User to run more offense and hunt for open looks more versus being able to easily defeat the AI because of being great at shot timing.
    Warns shot stick uses to start on pro or risk becoming really frustrated with all the air balls and missed shots that will happen if you try to go right to HOF
    Feels like defense has taken another step forward in the game, but acknowledges that for some very particular hardcore players it still isn't going to be where they want it.
    Know that many fans complain about two man animation sequences, but says that using them is much better than the alternatives in terms of how the game looks and reducing the strain on the CPU caused by using rag doll psychics.
    Wishes that Mike would sometimes be more hardline in forcing players to adjust to new things in the game, but recognizes and understands the compromises that he has to make.
    Laments the fact that online players always complain about a skill gap, but then when something is implemented that will actually create one, they complain that it's too hard and don't want to use the mechanism or want something changed back.

    Says that if one can master the shot stick now, they will stand out as really being a superior player vs someone who is just good at button timing.

    I 100% understand how Czar feels here.It's nice to be open to player feedback,but at some point you also have to set boundaries with the playerbase and stand up for the vision that you created too.
    Sadly, most players are kind of one trick ponies that will rely almost solely on their one or two tactics they learned from friends or on Youtube or wherever.Sure there's going to be some resistance to anything new and unfamiliar,that's human nature for most people;at the same time if you don't force the player base to evolve their play style at least a little bit, the game will never move forward in terms of better gameplay.
    Jrocc23
    I’ve been against this since it was announced. I am just disappointed it says CPUs and nothing about users.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Yup. This right here is my concern. I dont wanna see any green lights at all. Just simply give us the option to turn them off smh.
    Jrocc23
    How it used to be back in 2K11 and some older 2Ks. Green definitely wasn’t a 100% make. I miss that but sadly don’t think we’ll ever see that again. Everyone is too stuck on greens being automatic make. It’ll be super bad for Mike.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Yh was more realistic then. But It'll never be like that again no. These new age 2k players would throw tantrums for missing greens lol.
    WarMMA
    Yh was more realistic then. But It'll never be like that again no. These new age 2k players would throw tantrums for missing greens lol.
    And to be totally fair to 2k, for what they seem to want the game to be, having greens be automatic is probably the right call. If you want a "competitive" game, leaving something as basic as whether or not the shot goes in entirely up to RNG (even with the user being able to help those odds substantially) isn't a great way to do it. The issue is that making a quasi competitive basketball RPG-lite is at direct odds with making a realistic basketball game. It's like when there's a shooter with bloom; the randomness makes a lot of competitive players lose their minds. But offline players, and even PNO players, are in the minority at this point.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app
    I remember when they said they'd stop zig zagging feet past the 3pt line and then nailing easy greens, and it is still obviously rife.
    It's all just nonsense - they're not going to disadvantage their primary (by $) clientele. People aren't suddenly going to be expected to know how to play actual basketball lol.
    DonkeyJote
    And to be totally fair to 2k, for what they seem to want the game to be, having greens be automatic is probably the right call. If you want a "competitive" game, leaving something as basic as whether or not the shot goes in entirely up to RNG (even with the user being able to help those odds substantially) isn't a great way to do it. The issue is that making a quasi competitive basketball RPG-lite is at direct odds with making a realistic basketball game. It's like when there's a shooter with bloom; the randomness makes a lot of competitive players lose their minds. But offline players, and even PNO players, are in the minority at this point.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app
    but why stop at shooting then? Green a dunk attempt with a 25 driving dunk Player? Poster over 5 people!!! Green a Block? Monster Block to the stands with a 25 rated Block!!!
    if thats their Intention, why even have ratings?
    Jrocc23
    Yeah, it didn’t come until I think 2K15? I know he said he regret introducing it but I don’t know why it happened in the first place.
    Using 2K11 again, the shooting %s for players was as close to realistic you can get for a video game back then. I was one of the top ranked players on there and you was considered an elite 3pt shooter shooting 45% from 3. I am pretty sure nobody on 2K11 shot over 50% from 3.
    I know the game in real life has changed but this generation of 2K, shooting 50% from 3 means you’re not that good which is crazy. Just look at the difference of shooting %s from back then to lately.

    Yeah. The worst thing about how easy/overpowered 3 point shooting is in 2K is it makes doing anything other than shooting 3s a "bad move".
    Like, they are so easy to hit that by doing a wide open layup and giving the other team the ball back, you're literally throwing away an extra point. Why do some sick post up move or a nice euro-step or whatever if you can just braindead hit a 3 instead?
    I know the NBA has trended towards being 3-pointer-heavy the last few years, but it's fine because the best players max out at like 50% success rate. With everyone in 2K hitting 70%+ it makes every other aspect of offense feel pointless, which is stupid.
    2K just caters to bad players who know zip about basketball because they're the ones who throw the most money at the game nowadays, pretty sad.
    DonkeyJote
    And to be totally fair to 2k, for what they seem to want the game to be, having greens be automatic is probably the right call. If you want a "competitive" game, leaving something as basic as whether or not the shot goes in entirely up to RNG (even with the user being able to help those odds substantially) isn't a great way to do it. The issue is that making a quasi competitive basketball RPG-lite is at direct odds with making a realistic basketball game. It's like when there's a shooter with bloom; the randomness makes a lot of competitive players lose their minds. But offline players, and even PNO players, are in the minority at this point.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app

    That’s why I don’t understand why they can make different choice when playing online. Arcade level for players who fast movement with fatigue to bother them. Simulation when everything counts from shooting to fatigue and weight vs height! Lastly, experience ranked level this choice is for players who are skilled and willing to put in the time to learn the game and practice. All of these choices are in PNO or play now offline as well.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    DonkeyJote
    And to be totally fair to 2k, for what they seem to want the game to be, having greens be automatic is probably the right call. If you want a "competitive" game, leaving something as basic as whether or not the shot goes in entirely up to RNG (even with the user being able to help those odds substantially) isn't a great way to do it. The issue is that making a quasi competitive basketball RPG-lite is at direct odds with making a realistic basketball game. It's like when there's a shooter with bloom; the randomness makes a lot of competitive players lose their minds. But offline players, and even PNO players, are in the minority at this point.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app

    Something being automatic requires no skill and should not be in a game that wants to be competitive.
    Either that or that things that leads to something being automatic should require a very high requirement...
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    jfsolo
    He preferences his comments by saying that he is a primarily offline player.
    Loves the shot stick implementation, as a 2K player since OG NBA 2K, thinks currently that the stick creates a great challenge for the User vs the AI
    Says that the stick shooting seems really complicated when just hearing about how it works, but after using it for a few games people should be able to get a good feel for it.
    It forces the User to run more offense and hunt for open looks more versus being able to easily defeat the AI because of being great at shot timing.
    Warns shot stick uses to start on pro or risk becoming really frustrated with all the air balls and missed shots that will happen if you try to go right to HOF
    Feels like defense has taken another step forward in the game, but acknowledges that for some very particular hardcore players it still isn't going to be where they want it.
    Know that many fans complain about two man animation sequences, but says that using them is much better than the alternatives in terms of how the game looks and reducing the strain on the CPU caused by using rag doll psychics.
    Wishes that Mike would sometimes be more hardline in forcing players to adjust to new things in the game, but recognizes and understands the compromises that he has to make.
    Laments the fact that online players always complain about a skill gap, but then when something is implemented that will actually create one, they complain that it's too hard and don't want to use the mechanism or want something changed back.
    Says that if one can master the shot stick now, they will stand out as really being a superior player vs someone who is just good at button timing.

    I don’t mind the concept of the shot aiming that they’re implementing this year, but unfortunately I vastly prefer playing without a shot meter and from the sound of it, that means continuing to use shot timing instead of the new aiming mechanic.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    tru11
    Something being automatic requires no skill and should not be in a game that wants to be competitive.
    Either that or that things that leads to something being automatic should require a very high requirement...
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    It's not automatic though. It's automatic if you do a thing. In a competitive shooter, if you snipe a guy in the head, it's an automatic death. Still takes skill. And it takes skill to consistently green jumpshots in 2k. That doesn't mean that I like the direction. But intentional randomness is anti competitive.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app
    tru11
    Something being automatic requires no skill and should not be in a game that wants to be competitive.
    Either that or that things that leads to something being automatic should require a very high requirement...
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    Even as someone who is sim and doesn't like green releases, the direction they are moving in is absolutely more skill based and directly gives users more control of the outcome. That is the entire point of timing it (and now aiming it), so that you directly influence the outcome to a higher degree, thus results in a higher skill ceiling than simply holding a button and hoping you get lucky enough for it to go in, even if it was properly timed.
    Now, again I'm sim and haven't liked the direction things have headed, but hearing DaCzar talk about it has made me a lot more hopeful.
    DonkeyJote
    It's not automatic though. It's automatic if you do a thing. In a competitive shooter, if you snipe a guy in the head, it's an automatic death. Still takes skill. And it takes skill to consistently green jumpshots in 2k. That doesn't mean that I like the direction. But intentional randomness is anti competitive.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app

    You need a sniper rifle to snipe someone in the head for a automatic death with a single bullet.
    Using an AR or submachine wont yield the same results even though you are doing the exact same thing cause the weapon ratings wont allow.
    In 2K as long as you do the same thing , ratings wont matter.
    A green release with 68 rating will yield the same result as a green release with a 95 rating.
    All you need to know is when to stop pressing a button.
    You have a meter to help you and you are given feedback so you can make adjustments.
    On top of that you have badges that help you to do that.
    If that is your idea of skill then you have very low standards.
    In Jrc pretty much everyone 92 and up can green at will.
    Stacks pretty much the entire team can green their shot regardless of rating.
    Nah true skill in this game would be doing standing dunks on a regular against bigs with hof rim protectors.
    If you can pull that off without getting those fluffly standing lay ups because of hof intimidator then id say you have skill.....
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    tru11
    A green release with 68 rating will yield the same result as a green release with a 95 rating.

    True, but there is a higher likelihood of getting a green with the higher rating.
    tru11
    All you need to know is when to stop pressing a button.
    You have a meter to help you and you are given feedback so you can make adjustments.
    On top of that you have badges that help you to do that.
    If that is your idea of skill then you have very low standards.

    That is skill, though. Some people are much better at it than others. So, while yeah, a lot of people make WAY too many 3's, the timing aspect of it ABSOLUTELY takes skill.
    tru11
    In Jrc pretty much everyone 92 and up can green at will.
    Stacks pretty much the entire team can green their shot regardless of rating.

    I'm not going to argue too many 3s are made. And they should absolutely tune how difficult it is to green at lower ratings. It's just that, if you're trying to make a competitive game, the rating should determine the difficulty of getting green, not just increasing the odds of a random event.
    tru11
    Nah true skill in this game would be doing standing dunks on a regular against bigs with hof rim protectors.
    If you can pull that off without getting those fluffly standing lay ups because of hof intimidator then id say you have skill.....

    That has almost nothing to do with skill. You've got it backwards here. That's the game deciding for you, regardless of user input, whether or not the shot will go in based on ratings and badges.
    My personal preference would for there to be no goofy shot mechanic. It would be Real FG% across the board, and you increase your chances by working for good looks with high percentage shooters, and there's no brute forcing it through timing. I think the obsession a lot of games and gamers have with games being "competitive" and having "competitive scenes" is a big issue in games in general, and has lessened the quality to my tastes. However, if you're going to have a "competitive scene" you need to.maximize the impact of user impact and reduce reliance on RNG.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app
    Meh. Timing a button press for a jumpshot isn't skill. Especially when you have tons of shooting badges and high ratings to make it easier to get greens.
    As much as I think they look dumb I think what "dribble gods" do takes a bit of skill. I've been playing 2K for over a decade now and my dribbling has always been pretty below average. Being able to run the pick and roll effectively takes skill. Being good in the post takes skill. Being a good on-ball defender takes skill. You can go into Freestyle mode and learn a jumpshot in about 10 minutes lol. Where is the skill in that?
    Speaking of which, I hope they've made learning dribbling combos fun again...post moves as well...
    That's the first thing I go in and lab when I get the game but the last couple of years, they haven't been as fun or effective to use real time....as a PNO player at least.
    There's a level of skill to shooting....or there should be in theory. Too much of the blame goes on green releases. Its the badges that are to blame. There shouldn't be so many support badges to circumvent bad shooting ratings, or overpower good defense. That's what takes the skill away.
    If you didn't have all those crutches, thats where the pressure comes in. You now have to hit your timing under additional pressure. You have to make sure you're taking better shots.
    Say what you want about Live, but their system worked in a lot of ways. Greens were 100% but they felt earned. If an elite shooter got some seperation and hit a contested shot because he was nice with his timing, I was comfortable shaking his hand and running back down court. At the same time, some builds simply couldn't achieve greens from 3 and that was the bottom line.
    DonkeyJote
    It's not automatic though. It's automatic if you do a thing. In a competitive shooter, if you snipe a guy in the head, it's an automatic death. Still takes skill. And it takes skill to consistently green jumpshots in 2k. That doesn't mean that I like the direction. But intentional randomness is anti competitive.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app

    it takes no skill to consistently green shots in this game especially after all the buffs. damn near every average/good user to green every shot as of right now.
    if the new shot stick skill separates the good from great shooters that would be a welcomed addition.
    DonkeyJote
    It's not automatic though. It's automatic if you do a thing. In a competitive shooter, if you snipe a guy in the head, it's an automatic death. Still takes skill. And it takes skill to consistently green jumpshots in 2k. That doesn't mean that I like the direction. But intentional randomness is anti competitive.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app
    It's basketball...
    The 24th Letter

    There's a level of skill to shooting....or there should be in theory. Too much of the blame goes on green releases. Its the badges that are to blame. There shouldn't be so many support badges to circumvent bad shooting ratings, or overpower good defense. That's what takes the skill away.
    If you didn't have all those crutches, thats where the pressure comes in. You now have to hit your timing under additional pressure. You have to make sure you're taking better shot.

    Glad there are others who feel this way. Cause green releases have been around for 10 years and have mostly always meant the shot was going in. But all these badges, different levels of badges have made the game what it is now. I hope they eliminate a good chunk of those badges next gen as they take away a part of the game to me.
    SteveQ
    Glad there are others who feel this way. Cause green releases have been around for 10 years and have mostly always meant the shot was going in.

    No? The Green = Guaranteed make thing only came to us around 4 years ago. At least in all the old gen iterations (2k9-2k14), a green release did only mean that you maximized your shot percentage, but that was nowhere close to 100%!
    ksuttonjr76
    It's basketball...

    Gonna be honest bro... Its a video game.
    In real-life basketball, its all based on real physics. Like, when you shoot, if you release it with the correct amount of power for the arc you shot the ball with, its always going in. Theres no RNG randomness to it. Its either you made the shot or you didnt, its all on you. If we wanted that truly replicated in 2K, a green would always be a make and anything white would always be a miss. That way theres 0 randomness to it. But, I think almost everyone here can agree thats NOT the direction it should go.
    In a perfect world rating and openness of the shot would determine the green window, and the timing of the window would change depending on the distance, but its not feasible because there will always be someone who gets too good at timing when to stop holding down a button on a controller.
    Tl;Dr - Video Games are much easier than actual basketball so there will always be sacrifices made in order to achieve both realism and fun/fairness.
    The 24th Letter
    Speaking of which, I hope they've made learning dribbling combos fun again...post moves as well..

    I really hope they do. Thats why I stay away 2K20 this year. I cant pull off Harden's between/round the legs. I cant turn off the green splash. The big icon beneath seem so ... arcade
    And the copy on day 1 always without fail play so differently after day 60
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The 24th Letter
    Speaking of which, I hope they've made learning dribbling combos fun again...post moves as well...
    That's the first thing I go in and lab when I get the game but the last couple of years, they haven't been as fun or effective to use real time....as a PNO player at least.
    There's a level of skill to shooting....or there should be in theory. Too much of the blame goes on green releases. Its the badges that are to blame. There shouldn't be so many support badges to circumvent bad shooting ratings, or overpower good defense. That's what takes the skill away.
    If you didn't have all those crutches, thats where the pressure comes in. You now have to hit your timing under additional pressure. You have to make sure you're taking better shots.
    Say what you want about Live, but their system worked in a lot of ways. Greens were 100% but they felt earned. If an elite shooter got some seperation and hit a contested shot because he was nice with his timing, I was comfortable shaking his hand and running back down court. At the same time, some builds simply couldn't achieve greens from 3 and that was the bottom line.

    Yep, I've been saying this for years now too. I liked the concept of badges where it actually added something to the game that wasn't covered by ratings. The Charge Draw badge for example was a good idea (though it ultimately didn't really do anything) because there's no attribute for that.
    But most of the badges that exist now simply make existing attributes not really matter. One guy's build with a 60 3 point rating is essentially turned into an elite shooter because he has a bunch of shooting badges, his PG has floor general, etc.
    Yeah...THAT Guy
    Yep, I've been saying this for years now too. I liked the concept of badges where it actually added something to the game that wasn't covered by ratings. The Charge Draw badge for example was a good idea (though it ultimately didn't really do anything) because there's no attribute for that.
    But most of the badges that exist now simply make existing attributes not really matter. One guy's build with a 60 3 point rating is essentially turned into an elite shooter because he has a bunch of shooting badges, his PG has floor general, etc.

    I feel the same way...While there are some badges which do cover gaps in the attribute system,alot of them have now become a crutch that eliminates much of the risk involved in bad decision making.To me,allowing low rated players to have badges that makes it so you can hammer the steal button without fouling much,recover position almost immediately after jumping,etc. pushes the game a bit too much in the direction of arcade basketball.
    itsmb8
    Gonna be honest bro... Its a video game.
    In real-life basketball, its all based on real physics. Like, when you shoot, if you release it with the correct amount of power for the arc you shot the ball with, its always going in. Theres no RNG randomness to it. Its either you made the shot or you didnt, its all on you. If we wanted that truly replicated in 2K, a green would always be a make and anything white would always be a miss. That way theres 0 randomness to it. But, I think almost everyone here can agree thats NOT the direction it should go.
    In a perfect world rating and openness of the shot would determine the green window, and the timing of the window would change depending on the distance, but its not feasible because there will always be someone who gets too good at timing when to stop holding down a button on a controller.
    Tl;Dr - Video Games are much easier than actual basketball so there will always be sacrifices made in order to achieve both realism and fun/fairness.

    I f*cking hate when people use this assumption of "perfect mechanics" IRL would be automatic made shots therefore, it should happen in the videogame. NEWSFLASH! Players are NOT perfect hence the reason why they have the REAL LIFE shooting percentages that they have. RNG simulates the the imperfections of real life players, since they can't be perfect 100% of the time in the same manner as a stupid button press. Pressing a button for xxx number of milliseconds is NOT skills. Period.
    ksuttonjr76
    I f*cking hate when people use this assumption of "perfect mechanics" IRL would be automatic made shots therefore, it should happen in the videogame. NEWSFLASH! Players are NOT perfect hence the reason why they have the REAL LIFE shooting percentages that they have. RNG simulates the the imperfections of real life players, since they can't be perfect 100% of the time in the same manner as a stupid button press. Pressing a button for xxx number of milliseconds is NOT skills. Period.
    Then in that case, literally nothing in a game is skills. You want to argue it's too easy? Sure absolutely. I would attribute that a lot more to badges boosting ratings so much, but okay. But being able to consistently time IS a skill.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app
    Yeah I'm not a fan of that train of thought either.
    It's like saying a combo in a fighting game is simply "pressing a predetermined set of buttons."
    I've heard skill attributed to more "sim" aspects like calling plays. Isn't that "hitting two buttons and following a diagram" by that logic? Dribbling is just "moving the right stick in a pattern"?
    Now like I stated, things like the excessive boosts lesson what would be more involved skill but fact is, some players are better at timing their shots in varying situations.
    DonkeyJote
    Then in that case, literally nothing in a game is skills. You want to argue it's too easy? Sure absolutely. I would attribute that a lot more to badges boosting ratings so much, but okay. But being able to consistently time IS a skill.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app

    Ehhhh...sort of.
    Isn't timing the given tho? We can't even talk a decent success rate if your timing is off--which is why 24th's comments about badges that mitigate bad timing ring so true.
    Timing is a huge part but SKILL is a few different things IMO. Its being able to create space, knowing how to get guys open, being savvy enough to show a defender one look twice and then surprising him with something new on the third instance. Its also knowing enough about skill-set to go for a shot-block with Draymond instead of Steph, or shoot the open shot from deep with Redick (an elite 3pt sniper) instead of say, Zion (a solid one)
    SteveQ
    This isn’t true though lol 2K10/2K11 if you had a green you most likely made the shot. Cannot recall many situations where you missed with a “green” back then. I won’t say it’s a guaranteed make like today but it was pretty damn close to 100%.

    Depends on who you used.
    I could green every shot with howard but he would pretty much miss every shot not within a couple of feet of the basket.
    Dude made every standing dunk though.
    Hilariously i can green his free throws with like 51 rating orso in thus game.
    Same with shaq with them both on the all time magic 🤣
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    ksuttonjr76
    I f*cking hate when people use this assumption of "perfect mechanics" IRL would be automatic made shots therefore, it should happen in the videogame. NEWSFLASH! Players are NOT perfect hence the reason why they have the REAL LIFE shooting percentages that they have. RNG simulates the the imperfections of real life players, since they can't be perfect 100% of the time in the same manner as a stupid button press. Pressing a button for xxx number of milliseconds is NOT skills. Period.

    Thats not even close to what I was arguing. What im arguing is that IRL shooting is difficult and players arent perfect, BUT, real life isnt "random" in the way the game is. If you apply the right amount of force for the shot arc you shot the ball with, its going in 100% of the time. Its physics.
    In the game, you can model this by having ONLY green releases go in (green releases simulating you shooting the ball with the correct force and arc needed to make the shot). The problem is that this mechanic in game is MUCH MUCH easier than IRL, which is why there is RNG to simulate real life more but still give the player some control.
    DonkeyJote
    Then in that case, literally nothing in a game is skills. You want to argue it's too easy? Sure absolutely. I would attribute that a lot more to badges boosting ratings so much, but okay. But being able to consistently time IS a skill.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app

    this is the first 2k where almost everyone can consistently green shots. i’ve seen guys who are clearly newbies have no issues shooting.
    guys who never been scorers on this game score 20-30 easily cause they’re now a shooting threat. timing consistently on this game(2k20) isnt a skill.
    everyone is a great shooter if it was a skill we could tel who the great shooters are.
    itsmb8
    Thats not even close to what I was arguing. What im arguing is that IRL shooting is difficult and players arent perfect, BUT, real life isnt "random" in the way the game is. If you apply the right amount of force for the shot arc you shot the ball with, its going in 100% of the time. Its physics.
    In the game, you can model this by having ONLY green releases go in (green releases simulating you shooting the ball with the correct force and arc needed to make the shot). The problem is that this mechanic in game is MUCH MUCH easier than IRL, which is why there is RNG to simulate real life more but still give the player some control.

    theres no 100% shot irl humans arent perfect. ive seen steph miss shots he felt was good.
    The 24th Letter
    Yeah I'm not a fan of that train of thought either.
    It's like saying a combo in a fighting game is simply "pressing a predetermined set of buttons."
    I've heard skill attributed to more "sim" aspects like calling plays. Isn't that "hitting two buttons and following a diagram" by that logic? Dribbling is just "moving the right stick in a pattern"?
    Now like I stated, things like the excessive boosts lesson what would be more involved skill but fact is, some players are better at timing their shots in varying situations.

    the skill in calling plays is Not the actual Button press but the decision on which Play to call for which Player in which Situation. following the Diagramm still requires you to read the Situation and make the right decision.
    same with Dribbling. you need to read the defender, bait him with any move and then beat him through the side that He gives you.
    jk31
    the skill in calling plays is Not the actual Button press but the decision on which Play to call for which Player in which Situation. following the Diagramm still requires you to read the Situation and make the right decision.
    same with Dribbling. you need to read the defender, bait him with any move and then beat him through the side that He gives you.

    Of course......or you could oversimplify it like I did in my post, or how I keep hearing with shooting. That's my point.
    again, I'm against all the elements around the shooting mechanic lowering the aspect of skill, but I definitely feel it's a skilled aspect of the game.
    The 24th Letter
    Of course......or you could oversimplify it like I did in my post, or how I keep hearing with shooting. That's my point.
    again, I'm against all the elements around the shooting mechanic lowering the aspect of skill, but I definitely feel it's a skilled aspect of the game.

    Maybe I oversimplified it too much, but I don't think it's a "skill". With so many badges to nullify the defense, shooters have very little consequences for poor shot selections and no fear of missing wide open shots. All other builds have to give "thought" to their actions. Slashers can't constantly attack and convert at a high rate. Shot blockers can't contest a ton of shots and block shots at a high rate without fouling out. Playmakers can't throw flashy/lob passes and convert at a high rate without a ton turnovers. Defenders can't constantly reach with playing on the ball defense and not give up a ton of fouls. Big men can't shoot hook shots at the same rate as shooters.
    Shooters is literally the only build that can play "mindlessly" with zero conscience. Call/get a screen...pull. Open shot...pull. There's NOTHING that makes a shooter second guess their playstyle or recklessness unless they come across an individual who really knows how to play defense.
    ksuttonjr76
    Maybe I oversimplified it too much, but I don't think it's a "skill". With so many badges to nullify the defense, shooters have very little consequences for poor shot selections and no fear of missing wide open shots. All other builds have to give "thought" to their actions. Slashers can't constantly attack and convert at a high rate. Shot blockers can't contest a ton of shots and block shots at a high rate without fouling out. Playmakers can't throw flashy/lob passes and convert at a high rate without a ton turnovers. Defenders can't constantly reach with playing on the ball defense and not give up a ton of fouls. Big men can't shoot hook shots at the same rate as shooters.
    Shooters is literally the only build that can play "mindlessly" with zero conscience. Call/get a screen...pull. Open shot...pull. There's NOTHING that makes a shooter second guess their playstyle or recklessness unless they come across an individual who really knows how to play defense.

    We aren't really disagreeing.
    You'll get no argument from me that shooting is busted because of those factors. My focus is moreso on those factors.
    We agreed with jk that dribbling takes skill right? Remember when (I think it was 2K19) the crossover badges were completely overpowered and defenders were falling left and right from standard dribble moves before it was nerfed? Does that mean dribbling wasn't a skill then? or did that current design have an effect on skill level?
    That's really all I'm saying...and thats what I want 2K to really focus on evening out as far as shooting goes.
    ksuttonjr76
    Maybe I oversimplified it too much, but I don't think it's a "skill". With so many badges to nullify the defense, shooters have very little consequences for poor shot selections and no fear of missing wide open shots. All other builds have to give "thought" to their actions. Slashers can't constantly attack and convert at a high rate. Shot blockers can't contest a ton of shots and block shots at a high rate without fouling out. Playmakers can't throw flashy/lob passes and convert at a high rate without a ton turnovers. Defenders can't constantly reach with playing on the ball defense and not give up a ton of fouls. Big men can't shoot hook shots at the same rate as shooters.
    Shooters is literally the only build that can play "mindlessly" with zero conscience. Call/get a screen...pull. Open shot...pull. There's NOTHING that makes a shooter second guess their playstyle or recklessness unless they come across an individual who really knows how to play defense.

    You made a good point.Pretty much every aspect of the gameplay has issues with badges to some degree, namely that they tend to mitigate too much of risk in the risk/reward equation.
    I get that they want to reward players (that's how they keep people playing), but at some point you have to set boundaries too or else it turns into "Press X to win".
    loso_34
    theres no 100% shot irl humans arent perfect. ive seen steph miss shots he felt was good.

    Once again, not my argument. My point is, real life revolves around physics. Take the exact same shot from the exact same distance, put the exact same amount of force behind it with the exact same arc and you will have the exact same result every single time. There is no randomness in real life, there's only absolutes. In the game, you can take the exact same shot, and hold the shot button down for the exact same time, and you will eventually get different results.
    Every player can FEEL like the made a shot while its in the air and still miss, but thats because they missed that shot, not some number roll determined they missed.
    If you want a truly competitive shot mechanic, every green release is a make and every non-green is a miss. Ratings and badges will determine how big or small the window for a green release is so players hit them at a rate that is consistent with their ratings.
    loso_34
    whats the last 2k game where you separate the good shooters and the great ones?

    For me, I would say 2K16 as the last one. But I am not 100% sure. It’s been some years.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Good thread, haven't really gone through it yet.
    Here's my problem with 2K shooting though - IT'S A GAMING "SKILL", NOT A BASKETBALL SKILL.
    - In 2K, somehow, timing a button is more of a "skill" than basketball things like shot iq AND the ability to run an offense to do what real offenses try to do -- create open looks and opportunities. A good amount of the "skill" in real basketball isn't just "shooting", it's that some teams run an offense better than others, which create better opportunities with higher odds to make the shot. To me, "timing when to release a button" is a GAMING skill not a basketball skill. If 2K was really a sim, they'd reward basketball skill over gaming skill every time.
    - Badges are a bail out. Bums get a badge and they can score 20 if they learn one glitch move and one glitch shot. From a gaming and profit perspective, it's all good for 2K. What better motivation for a bad player to grind for badges, when in too many cases it supersedes basketball skill and iq. But from a basketball perspective? Do they care?
    - Keep it simple, keep it basketball. Wang needs to stop complicating it (a new bell and whistle to try to justify a new version every year?), it's basketball --- there's your blueprint. Factor in all the components that matter, but Shot IQ (while also factoring in ratings) should outweigh button timing (especially considering lag). That's not to say a wide open shot by a 60 overall should be green 4 out of 5 times.
    - Nerf the Range Extender badge and remove Deadeye badge
    - Stop giving the 2K Community "WTF" moments. Shots that shouldn't go in....shouldn't go in.
    NoLeafClover

    2K just caters to bad players who know zip about basketball because they're the ones who throw the most money at the game nowadays, pretty sad.

    Yup pretty much. What better way to overcompensate for sucking than buying your way to "skill".
    itsmb8
    Once again, not my argument. My point is, real life revolves around physics. Take the exact same shot from the exact same distance, put the exact same amount of force behind it with the exact same arc and you will have the exact same result every single time. There is no randomness in real life, there's only absolutes. In the game, you can take the exact same shot, and hold the shot button down for the exact same time, and you will eventually get different results.
    Every player can FEEL like the made a shot while its in the air and still miss, but thats because they missed that shot, not some number roll determined they missed.
    If you want a truly competitive shot mechanic, every green release is a make and every non-green is a miss. Ratings and badges will determine how big or small the window for a green release is so players hit them at a rate that is consistent with their ratings.

    But the "dice roll" with shooting is a simulation of the fact, that no human being in real life is able to replicate their shot to 100%. I don't want 90% of the playerbase to be better than Steph Curry, who is by far the greatest shooter of all time.
    DonkeyJote

    That is skill, though. Some people are much better at it than others. So, while yeah, a lot of people make WAY too many 3's, the timing aspect of it ABSOLUTELY takes skill.

    As of now timing takes too big a piece of the pie. In 2K timing trumps too many other factors. It's more of a gaming skill not a basketball skill.
    The 24th Letter
    Speaking of which, I hope they've made learning dribbling combos fun again...post moves as well...
    That's the first thing I go in and lab when I get the game but the last couple of years, they haven't been as fun or effective to use real time....as a PNO player at least.
    There's a level of skill to shooting....or there should be in theory. Too much of the blame goes on green releases. Its the badges that are to blame. There shouldn't be so many support badges to circumvent bad shooting ratings, or overpower good defense. That's what takes the skill away.
    If you didn't have all those crutches, thats where the pressure comes in. You now have to hit your timing under additional pressure. You have to make sure you're taking better shots.
    Say what you want about Live, but their system worked in a lot of ways. Greens were 100% but they felt earned. If an elite shooter got some seperation and hit a contested shot because he was nice with his timing, I was comfortable shaking his hand and running back down court. At the same time, some builds simply couldn't achieve greens from 3 and that was the bottom line.

    Every year they talk about 'skill gap' yet every year they give the bums more and more training wheel crutches. Unpluckable badge, handles for days, deadeye...
    DonkeyJote
    Then in that case, literally nothing in a game is skills. You want to argue it's too easy? Sure absolutely. I would attribute that a lot more to badges boosting ratings so much, but okay. But being able to consistently time IS a skill.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app

    How are we defining skill? Knowing a button? When you kickoff the football in Madden with its little kickoff meter, is that what the esports pros are going "whoa look at that perfect kickoff, look at him time that s**, what skill". It's almost as much as a skill as holding RT to turbo.
    That's not to say shooting isn't a skill. Shooting success is the combination of a lot of things, least of which should be button timing. ESPECIALLY relative to how big of an impact shooting is to the success of winning, how easy it is to find a glitchy OP easy to time jumper, and how volatile it can be with input lag and lag affecting the timing of it.
    Also are we defining gaming skill or basketball skill? And which one should have bigger impact? I've seen high iq players in Rec who you could tell weren't crazy familiar with the controls and/or their players were low rated or low badges, yet they were able to be successful 'cause they knew how how to space the floor, when to cut, had court vision, etc. But which direction is 2K going in. Do they want gamers or do they want ballers.
    Badges that reward "bad" gameplay choices are probably the worst addition they've made to the game outside of green releases = 100% make.
    E.g: things like Deadeye, Bail Out, Flexible Release, Tireless X that rewards turbo spammers etc. etc, I mean what is the point of actually rewarding bad decisions?
    I get they wanted to add in some way to differentiate star players but we already had that with the increasing number of unique animations for the stars and things like Limitless Range (which should be wayyyy more limited in how available it is seeing basically only Steph and Lillard in the whole league hit them with any kind of regularity) being too widespread.
    Badges should just give you access to some extra animations or something, attributes are already there to differentiate players anyway :/
    TheFgGoatLikesHawks
    How are we defining skill? Knowing a button? When you kickoff the football in Madden with its little kickoff meter, is that what the esports pros are going "whoa look at that perfect kickoff, look at him time that s**, what skill". It's almost as much as a skill as holding RT to turbo.
    That's not to say shooting isn't a skill. Shooting success is the combination of a lot of things, least of which should be button timing. ESPECIALLY relative to how big of an impact shooting is to the success of winning, how easy it is to find a glitchy OP easy to time jumper, and how volatile it can be with input lag and lag affecting the timing of it.
    Also are we defining gaming skill or basketball skill? And which one should have bigger impact? I've seen high iq players in Rec who you could tell weren't crazy familiar with the controls and/or their players were low rated or low badges, yet they were able to be successful 'cause they knew how how to space the floor, when to cut, had court vision, etc. But which direction is 2K going in. Do they want gamers or do they want ballers.

    TheFgGoatLikesHawks
    How are we defining skill? Knowing a button? When you kickoff the football in Madden with its little kickoff meter, is that what the esports pros are going "whoa look at that perfect kickoff, look at him time that s**, what skill". It's almost as much as a skill as holding RT to turbo.
    That's not to say shooting isn't a skill. Shooting success is the combination of a lot of things, least of which should be button timing. ESPECIALLY relative to how big of an impact shooting is to the success of winning, how easy it is to find a glitchy OP easy to time jumper, and how volatile it can be with input lag and lag affecting the timing of it.
    Also are we defining gaming skill or basketball skill? And which one should have bigger impact? I've seen high iq players in Rec who you could tell weren't crazy familiar with the controls and/or their players were low rated or low badges, yet they were able to be successful 'cause they knew how how to space the floor, when to cut, had court vision, etc. But which direction is 2K going in. Do they want gamers or do they want ballers.

    Until the technology to read us dribbling, V-Ting the ball and flicking our wrists comes along, What we do with the controller in our hand is going to determine our success when it comes to a video game....even if that video game is supposed to be simulating basketball. So both are important.
    itsmb8
    Once again, not my argument. My point is, real life revolves around physics. Take the exact same shot from the exact same distance, put the exact same amount of force behind it with the exact same arc and you will have the exact same result every single time. There is no randomness in real life, there's only absolutes. In the game, you can take the exact same shot, and hold the shot button down for the exact same time, and you will eventually get different results.
    Every player can FEEL like the made a shot while its in the air and still miss, but thats because they missed that shot, not some number roll determined they missed.
    If you want a truly competitive shot mechanic, every green release is a make and every non-green is a miss. Ratings and badges will determine how big or small the window for a green release is so players hit them at a rate that is consistent with their ratings.

    I hate to use this comment, but you must not play a lot of REC. Dudes can green almost every shot regardless of the defense. I can play defense (when using my PG), so I can lock that nonsense down a little bit, but there's nothing that I can do once the offense make it their focus to screen me off their best shooter. The shooter only needs a sliver of space to green a shot.
    ksuttonjr76
    I hate to use this comment, but you must not play a lot of REC. Dudes can green almost every shot regardless of the defense. I can play defense (when using my PG), so I can lock that nonsense down a little bit, but there's nothing that I can do once the offense make it their focus to screen me off their best shooter. The shooter only needs a sliver of space to green a shot.
    You're missing the point. Literally nobody is saying that it isn't too easy. What people are saying that if 2k wants a COMPETITIVE game, user input needs to be the driving force, not RNG determined by ratings. In my perfect world, yeah, I'd prefer the RNG; I like Real FG% for that reason. But that isn't competitive. In real life, the player shooting the ball determines whether or not it goes in. It's not random. If you want a competitive basketball game, the player behind the controls needs to ultimately be in control of whether or not the shot goes in through their actions. In a competitive game, green = 100% is absolutely the right call, and you adjust the difficulty of getting that green based on other factors, like fatigue, whether or not they're set, defense, ratings, etc.
    Again, none of that means it wasn't too easy at high level play in 2k. But that has to do a lot with badges. Things like Corner Specialist, Floor General, Deadeye, etc stacking is an issue. You aren't shooting with a 50 overall; after all the boosts, you're shooting at a much higher rating. And things like 2kLabs going through every jump shot to find all the variable "green windows" and release times. Imo, every shot should have the exact same window - and hopefully the new system addresses that.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app
    DonkeyJote
    You're missing the point. Literally nobody is saying that it isn't too easy. What people are saying that if 2k wants a COMPETITIVE game, user input needs to be the driving force, not RNG determined by ratings. In my perfect world, yeah, I'd prefer the RNG; I like Real FG% for that reason. But that isn't competitive. In real life, the player shooting the ball determines whether or not it goes in. It's not random. If you want a competitive basketball game, the player behind the controls needs to ultimately be in control of whether or not the shot goes in through their actions. In a competitive game, green = 100% is absolutely the right call, and you adjust the difficulty of getting that green based on other factors, like fatigue, whether or not they're set, defense, ratings, etc.
    Again, none of that means it wasn't too easy at high level play in 2k. But that has to do a lot with badges. Things like Corner Specialist, Floor General, Deadeye, etc stacking is an issue. You aren't shooting with a 50 overall; after all the boosts, you're shooting at a much higher rating. And things like 2kLabs going through every jump shot to find all the variable "green windows" and release times. Imo, every shot should have the exact same window - and hopefully the new system addresses that.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app

    yet this isn’t street fighter or COD RNG will always be here. there are so many other facets of the game that require more user skill..the 2 man animations being one of them but ya’lll always harp about shooting.
    even if they go with your suggestion this still isn’t a competitive game. i dunno what youtuber has you guys parroting the same thing in regards to user skill and shooting they should know theres a long list of other things that doesn’t involve RNG that should require more skill.
    irl shooting is mainly repetition(muscle memory) and being able to maintain focus. you cant replicate that with green lights.
    DonkeyJote
    You're missing the point. Literally nobody is saying that it isn't too easy. What people are saying that if 2k wants a COMPETITIVE game, user input needs to be the driving force, not RNG determined by ratings. In my perfect world, yeah, I'd prefer the RNG; I like Real FG% for that reason. But that isn't competitive. In real life, the player shooting the ball determines whether or not it goes in. It's not random. If you want a competitive basketball game, the player behind the controls needs to ultimately be in control of whether or not the shot goes in through their actions. In a competitive game, green = 100% is absolutely the right call, and you adjust the difficulty of getting that green based on other factors, like fatigue, whether or not they're set, defense, ratings, etc.
    Again, none of that means it wasn't too easy at high level play in 2k. But that has to do a lot with badges. Things like Corner Specialist, Floor General, Deadeye, etc stacking is an issue. You aren't shooting with a 50 overall; after all the boosts, you're shooting at a much higher rating. And things like 2kLabs going through every jump shot to find all the variable "green windows" and release times. Imo, every shot should have the exact same window - and hopefully the new system addresses that.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app

    Then that's goes back to my original comment.
    It's basketball. You create the best available shot, and you live with the results. That's a competitive game. NBA 2K11 had it right....
    itsmb8
    Once again, not my argument. My point is, real life revolves around physics. Take the exact same shot from the exact same distance, put the exact same amount of force behind it with the exact same arc and you will have the exact same result every single time. There is no randomness in real life, there's only absolutes. In the game, you can take the exact same shot, and hold the shot button down for the exact same time, and you will eventually get different results.
    Every player can FEEL like the made a shot while its in the air and still miss, but thats because they missed that shot, not some number roll determined they missed.
    If you want a truly competitive shot mechanic, every green release is a make and every non-green is a miss. Ratings and badges will determine how big or small the window for a green release is so players hit them at a rate that is consistent with their ratings.

    sounds like to me you guys want to do away with ratings tbh. i cant even call it a number roll with the boosts and badges in this game..if you miss on here you most likely miss timed your jumper.
    people dont want a comp shooting mechanic. they want to make every shot and trust theyll still find something to blame.
    that green light really is a drug.
    loso_34
    yet this isn’t street fighter or COD RNG will always be here. there are so many other facets of the game that require more user skill..the 2 man animations being one of them but ya’lll always harp about shooting.
    even if they go with your suggestion this still isn’t a competitive game. i dunno what youtuber has you guys parroting the same thing in regards to user skill and shooting they should know theres a long list of other things that doesn’t involve RNG that should require more skill.
    irl shooting is mainly repetition(muscle memory) and being able to maintain focus. you cant replicate that with green lights.
    Not parroting any YouTuber. I don't watch 2k on YouTube. Personally, I want a more sim experience. But making a competitive basketball video game and making a game that is an accurate representation of real life basketball are two things that are directly at odds with one another.
    ksuttonjr76
    Then that's goes back to my original comment.
    It's basketball. You create the best available shot, and you live with the results. That's a competitive game. NBA 2K11 had it right....
    2k11 had is right from a Sim perspective. It was a great game imo. I'd be THRILLED if 2k21 was more like that. But from a mainstream competitive game standpoint, not really.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app
    I wish all this green shot and other debates were moved to a different thread. This was supposed to be about updates from Mike Wang and this thread has completely gone off the rails to being useless for what it was intended.
    rudyjuly2
    I wish all this green shot and other debates were moved to a different thread. This was supposed to be about updates from Mike Wang and this thread has completely gone off the rails to being useless for what it was intended.

    You can blame 2K and their absolutely minimal levels of info/drip-feeding of details for that...
    No major gaming company I can think of does a worse job of communication with their fan base in regards to detailed explanations of features/patch notes.
    We're so close to release and all we've seen is a teaser/sizzle trailer for current gen, so all we can do is sit around and speculate & argue unfortunately.
    NoLeafClover
    You can blame 2K and their absolutely minimal levels of info/drip-feeding of details for that...
    No major gaming company I can think of does a worse job of communication with their fan base in regards to detailed explanations of features/patch notes.
    We're so close to release and all we've seen is a teaser/sizzle trailer for current gen, so all we can do is sit around and speculate & argue unfortunately.

    Hardcore fans may hate it, but they realized a couple of years ago that that don't really need to do that much in terms of marketing and communication for this game. Sprinkle the info out over the the last 2-3 weeks before the game releases and records sales and profit will still ensue.
    They may start a little earlier for this first next gen version of the game because of the unknowns surrounding the adoption of the new consoles, but NBA 2K22 will probably be business as usual.
    loso_34
    sounds like to me you guys want to do away with ratings tbh. i cant even call it a number roll with the boosts and badges in this game..if you miss on here you most likely miss timed your jumper.
    people dont want a comp shooting mechanic. they want to make every shot and trust theyll still find something to blame.
    that green light really is a drug.

    for the record, i dont play offline at all. And i only use RP%.
    I just dont see how you can create a competitive game mode that relies on random number rolls.
    itsmb8
    for the record, i dont play offline at all. And i only use RP%.
    I just dont see how you can create a competitive game mode that relies on random number rolls.
    then create some stupid CoMpEtItIvE gamemode for All those wannabes and leave me alone with that Nonsense.
    itsmb8
    for the record, i dont play offline at all. And i only use RP%.
    I just dont see how you can create a competitive game mode that relies on random number rolls.

    Are these the only factors though for shooting - RP% vs shot timing? Or are you saying RP% vs Greens (timing, shot openness, badges, ratings). Imo 2K's current problem is having user shot mechanics supersede ratings. Idc how good your shot timing is, some dude with a 65 3pt rating shouldn't be hitting like Curry in Rec (seen this too many times). So maybe RP% should be like 25% - 50% of the equation. Maybe this would make 'em think about taking 100 threes with a 65 3pt rating big just 'cuz he mastered his shot. Some randomness can be a good thing. But I'd rather have ratings and Shot IQ be the dominant factors in shot success, not timing. This would change the meta from "gotta find an OP jumpshot" to "gotta learn how to play basketball so as a team we can create open looks, as well as roster building having builds with the right ratings". It's up to 2K which direction they want to go.
    It's gonna continue to turn off hardcore basketball heads every time a bum with a money jump shot can succeed vs basketball IQ. 2K isn't Fall Guys. There's a blue print to it, there's logic, there's physics. It's "gaming" but who says IQ can't transfer from real court to 2K. Look at Chess, a respected game. But it's a "videogame" too if you play it on the computer (?)
    jk31
    then create some stupid CoMpEtItIvE gamemode for All those wannabes and leave me alone with that Nonsense.
    And they're okay with that. There are a LOT more people who want the game to be "competitive" and/or arcadey than there are people who want a Sim experience.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app
    NoLeafClover
    Badges that reward "bad" gameplay choices are probably the worst addition they've made to the game outside of green releases = 100% make.
    E.g: things like Deadeye, Bail Out, Flexible Release, Tireless X that rewards turbo spammers etc. etc, I mean what is the point of actually rewarding bad decisions?
    I get they wanted to add in some way to differentiate star players but we already had that with the increasing number of unique animations for the stars and things like Limitless Range (which should be wayyyy more limited in how available it is seeing basically only Steph and Lillard in the whole league hit them with any kind of regularity) being too widespread.
    Badges should just give you access to some extra animations or something, attributes are already there to differentiate players anyway :/

    Yes the badges were all good and solid when the thought notion behind was ok yet it went super bad in years and it keeps going on that faulty unhealty road of madness.. :)
    2k HAS TO / DEFINITELY MUST look at Football Manager by SI in which players have 'Player Traits' which is excatly for the purpose of some players having some traits on their own to differentiate what they are doing on the pitch though which only affect the way they move and animate it doesn't affect their superiority on others they are all just traits which all are determined by the Attributes only!
    So fe. if a players in FM has run with ball often trait it doesn't make him a great dribbler, if the player has all the good attributes to dribble the ball then the player will make use of his 'run with ball often' trait in good ways and that seperates his ability on the match motor. But if a player doesn't have the sufficient attributes then that player trait betrays that and player and his ability will be suffered bcs of his trait.
    Another ex is let's say 'brings the ball out of defence' for a defender, if the player has this trait but not the attributes than you will see him suffer on match motor making mistakes, loosing ball causing your side to concede etc. etc.
    But in 2k it's all alone to make everyhting as superior as it gets and so year after year attributes started not to matter but only badges and the match motor has been completely ruined, there is no balance anymore only some sort of 'nerf' tries which again add even more problems in gameplay motor and trying to fix them will only lead some more, they need to completely delete all of them and starts adding as Football Manager does with their 'player traits'. Badges should be balanced and they should act as risk/reward factor but now it only acts REWARDS all the way neglecting any attributes.
    Badges ARE a DESIGN FAULT in 2K by some very talented and master developpers. I hope they see my message.
    Badges value depends on what mode you are designing them for. For myplayer they add a lot to the RPG type experience that keeps players hooked and lets players feel they have some control over the development of their player. For team based modes (not counting myteam, which isn't really about realism but about trading cards) they cause all sorts of simulation problems.
    My opinion is that myplayer/mycareer should be solely about physical archetype and badges. There should be no rating buying. Your player plays based on their physical stats and the badges you pick. The number of badges you get is based on archetype. That's it. Just lean into the RPG element.
    For team based play, I'd get rid of badges and use something like the PPMs from Football manager.
    I agree with both sides to some degree.
    I don’t think green releases are inherently bad. This is coming from someone who is a poor jump shooter. It does reward those with better timing/twitch skills which is fair.
    On the other hand, I think it’s crept up to being too big a piece of the formula. Over the past few years, each year it feels like it creeps closer to green = make and anything else = miss. Regardless of shot quality and defense. In my perfect world, shot quality and openness would still supersede timing. So creating good looks would be more of a team goal rather than the current meta of just freeing up whoever your best “greener” is.
    I also feel like greens shouldn’t be possible in some scenarios. A hand right up in your face? No green. Your stats/badges should increase your odds of making a contested shot but you shouldn’t be able to entirely mitigate a bad shot with timing. Off balance or 40 feet from the hoop? No green. Again, your odds should be increased by stats, badges and timing but it shouldn’t become a desirable shot simply because you have good timing. Players hunting for 40 footers or running leaners because they can green them is what makes the game feel so arcadey and undermines the principles of good basketball.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    I'll never understand this false belief that having some form of a RNG is a "bad" thing. It's not like the user is going to know that they got a "bad" roll versus possible user error....
    If basketball gamers can't accept shooting "realistic" FG%'s, then maybe they're not as competitive as they think they are. Playing against OP tactics is NOT competitive basketball.
    ksuttonjr76
    I'll never understand this false belief that having some form of a RNG is a "bad" thing. It's not like the user is going to know that they got a "bad" roll versus possible user error....
    If basketball gamers can't accept shooting "realistic" FG%'s, then maybe they're not as competitive as they think they are. Playing against OP tactics is NOT competitive basketball.
    The fact that the user doesn't know is kinda the point. You're taking the control away from the user.
    Literally nobody is saying that percentages aren't too high. The difficulty absolutely needs to be increased. Just that, ultimately, in a competitive game user input should be the driving force. If the game is deciding who wins based on dice rolls, it's not a competitive game.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app
    ksuttonjr76
    I'll never understand this false belief that having some form of a RNG is a "bad" thing. It's not like the user is going to know that they got a "bad" roll versus possible user error....
    If basketball gamers can't accept shooting "realistic" FG%'s, then maybe they're not as competitive as they think they are. Playing against OP tactics is NOT competitive basketball.
    So I'm just wondering your viewpoint. Should RNG only be regulated to shooting?
    Increase of an unforced turnover per pass based on the players average? etc? That's apart of basketball as well.
    DonkeyJote
    And they're okay with that. There are a LOT more people who want the game to be "competitive" and/or arcadey than there are people who want a Sim experience.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app

    I feel like some people on here on some level do live in a bit of a bubble. All you have to do is browse Twitter or Reddit replies about NBA 2K to see what the average person playing 2K thinks about this stuff.
    Of course there are sim heads, I consider myself one of them. But... let us get things straight, 2K heading in the direction that they have has resulted in record sales time and time again. What incentive is there to go in any other direction all of a sudden?
    The 24th Letter
    So I'm just wondering your viewpoint. Should RNG only be regulated to shooting?
    Increase of an unforced turnover per pass based on the players average? etc? That's apart of basketball as well.

    When I think of RNG, I think of "probability" combined with variance of success/failure based on other factors. The probability should be dynamic when it comes to MyPlayer modes and static in the NBA modes minus MyGM and MyLeague. The physical mechanic of pressing the button is easy to learn and easy for muscle memory to adapt especially when the individual selects the easiest jumper to master.
    In basketball, that's becomes a crippling concept. When you disregard probability/ratings/RNG/statistical caps (whatever you want to call it), you open the door for unrealistic situations where an individual can and will shoot 15 for 15 on open looks. As a result, it cheapens the basketball experience. The challenge/skill is NOT in the shooting, but the challenge is in defending the shooting which leads to unrealistic and overly focused defense on just one aspect of the game. Now....someone will argue blah, blah, blah superstar did it, so I (the gamer) should be able to do it. That's just delusional thinking, because Jordan didn't score 55 points every time he stepped on the court. When a simple button press has that much domination in a game, then the game stops being a thinking man's game.
    To answer your question. YES, I believe probability and dynamic ratings should be introduced to ALL facets of the game. If you suck at passing, then you should continue to suck at passing. If you suck at blocking shots, then you should continue to suck at blocking shootings. If you're on a defensive tear with steals, then you should be allowed to continue your defensive tear. If you're rebounding defensive rebounds at a high level, then you should be allowed to continue to rebound at a high level.
    There are plenty of NBA stats to create minimum and maximum performances for all categories. By introducing dynamic performances, you get basketball back to being a thinking man's game, and players become more aware of the consequences of their actions. With my Interior Force MyPlayer, if I know that I've been foul prone for the last 5 games, then I need to figure out a different way to play defense while providing the minimum amount of production for my build and position. On the flip side, if I've been destroying shot attempts left and right, then I earned the luxury of being more risky with block attempts while never exceeding the maximum amount of production for my build and position.
    EDIT: 2K Sports kinda already introduced the concept in the MyPlayer modes, but I just think they're doing it wrong using overall.
    Thrustie
    I agree with both sides to some degree.
    I don’t think green releases are inherently bad. This is coming from someone who is a poor jump shooter. It does reward those with better timing/twitch skills which is fair.
    On the other hand, I think it’s crept up to being too big a piece of the formula. Over the past few years, each year it feels like it creeps closer to green = make and anything else = miss. Regardless of shot quality and defense. In my perfect world, shot quality and openness would still supersede timing. So creating good looks would be more of a team goal rather than the current meta of just freeing up whoever your best “greener” is.
    I also feel like greens shouldn’t be possible in some scenarios. A hand right up in your face? No green. Your stats/badges should increase your odds of making a contested shot but you shouldn’t be able to entirely mitigate a bad shot with timing. Off balance or 40 feet from the hoop? No green. Again, your odds should be increased by stats, badges and timing but it shouldn’t become a desirable shot simply because you have good timing. Players hunting for 40 footers or running leaners because they can green them is what makes the game feel so arcadey and undermines the principles of good basketball.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    Good post.
    I feel similar in that shot quality+timing should be the driving factor. If by attributes a player should be capable of hitting about 50% from a spot, then with an open shot + badges + green release you should be able to shoot at maybe a 60% clip.
    On the defensive end, I feel like a good shot contest should reduce the green window, and possibly eliminate the chance at a green all together if the shooter is rated low enough.
    I think the combination of the two could be enough to encourage players to make smart plays on both ends of the floor as opposed to just firing away and relying on animations + badges.
    This is a video game. It's never going to be competitive basketball, until we get to Kinect 16.0 in the year 2100 where you're essentially just playing basketball in your living room. So, they have to make a choice. Do they want it to be a realistic video game representation of NBA basketball, or do they want it to be a competitive video game in a basketball setting. Because, imo, those two things absolutely cannot coexist (in any sports game tbh).
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app
    MrWrestling3
    Good post.
    I feel similar in that shot quality+timing should be the driving factor. If by attributes a player should be capable of hitting about 50% from a spot, then with an open shot + badges + green release you should be able to shoot at maybe a 60% clip.
    On the defensive end, I feel like a good shot contest should reduce the green window, and possibly eliminate the chance at a green all together if the shooter is rated low enough.
    I think the combination of the two could be enough to encourage players to make smart plays on both ends of the floor as opposed to just firing away and relying on animations + badges.
    that is EXACTLY how it was in the past and how it should be again.
    MrWrestling3
    Good post.
    I feel similar in that shot quality+timing should be the driving factor. If by attributes a player should be capable of hitting about 50% from a spot, then with an open shot + badges + green release you should be able to shoot at maybe a 60% clip.
    On the defensive end, I feel like a good shot contest should reduce the green window, and possibly eliminate the chance at a green all together if the shooter is rated low enough.
    I think the combination of the two could be enough to encourage players to make smart plays on both ends of the floor as opposed to just firing away and relying on animations + badges.

    Yeah I would agree with that. I think 2K already does have a reduction of the green window in certain scenarios but it still appears too forgiving, in my opinion. On top of that, it seems to really devalue those who aren’t as great with timing but are really basketball smart and good at getting open looks. It becomes a green or bust mentality. I would prefer it if greens were much harder to get in general but shot quality and openness were given a bit of a boost. I’ve played with guys who just can’t get down shot timing, especially online, and go 0/8 on clean looks from great locations with good shooting stats. I feel like there’s a middle ground between guys who go 15/17 with off dribble 3s from 30 feet behind screens and guys who go 0/8 on open shots from the corner. I’m not convinced, like some would say, that the first guy is a much better player because he knows how long to press the square button. I feel like there’s a more reasonable design where shot timing still boosts your performance but isn’t the sole measure of success.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    DonkeyJote
    This is a video game. It's never going to be competitive basketball, until we get to Kinect 16.0 in the year 2100 where you're essentially just playing basketball in your living room. So, they have to make a choice. Do they want it to be a realistic video game representation of NBA basketball, or do they want it to be a competitive video game in a basketball setting. Because, imo, those two things absolutely cannot coexist (in any sports game tbh).
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app

    Actually, it can coexist, because it did at one point. NBA 2K11 is living proof. A "great" shooting night for me using Danny Granger (at the time) was a FG% in the high 50's.
    ksuttonjr76
    Actually, it can coexist, because it did at one point. NBA 2K11 is living proof. A "great" shooting night for me using Danny Granger (at the time) was a FG% in the high 50's.
    ksuttonjr76
    I'm trying to understand why some people are so scared about playing a basketball game that produces realistic numbers.....
    It has nothing to do with the numbers. Literally no one in here is saying shooting percentages aren't too high from 3. It's how you get there. Taking the control out if the users hands and leaving it up to chance would create a more universally realistic game, but it also remove control from the users. You can get lower shooting percentages with greens still being automatic makes, especially since openness, movement, and ratings impact the green window.
    Also, most of the people in here are probably fans of a more sim game. Like I've said, for my personal tastes, I'd love for there to be no shot meter at all and for it to be about ratings. But I also don't personally care if the game is competitive or has a big skill gap. For years, I used Real FG% and only don't this year because the lack of clean makes broke the experience for me. But, that isn't the direction 2k is going, because that isn't what the majority of players outside of this forum want. It's not that those players want to be able to never miss; they just want their misses to be because of something they can correct. That's why the community at large hates stuff like Intimidator or the weird contested percentages.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app
    DonkeyJote
    This is a video game. It's never going to be competitive basketball, until we get to Kinect 16.0 in the year 2100 where you're essentially just playing basketball in your living room. So, they have to make a choice. Do they want it to be a realistic video game representation of NBA basketball, or do they want it to be a competitive video game in a basketball setting. Because, imo, those two things absolutely cannot coexist (in any sports game tbh).
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app

    the latter is what this game has become it is what it is.
    i just find it comical that comp players want a green or bust mode when last fall they begged mike for more whites when most struggled to shoot.
    DonkeyJote
    It has nothing to do with the numbers. Literally no one in here is saying shooting percentages aren't too high from 3. It's how you get there. Taking the control out if the users hands and leaving it up to chance would create a more universally realistic game, but it also remove control from the users. You can get lower shooting percentages with greens still being automatic makes, especially since openness, movement, and ratings impact the green window.
    Also, most of the people in here are probably fans of a more sim game. Like I've said, for my personal tastes, I'd love for there to be no shot meter at all and for it to be about ratings. But I also don't personally care if the game is competitive or has a big skill gap. For years, I used Real FG% and only don't this year because the lack of clean makes broke the experience for me. But, that isn't the direction 2k is going, because that isn't what the majority of players outside of this forum want. It's not that those players want to be able to never miss; they just want their misses to be because of something they can correct. That's why the community at large hates stuff like Intimidator or the weird contested percentages.
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app

    Okay...remove the shoot button, and force everyone to use the shot stick. You'll have competition, and users will still have their "control".
    I just came here to say that the rationale for penalizing the player for not wanting that ugly, arcade mode looking, charge up bar doesn't register with me.
    It's harder to time shots with the meter off, so you get a penalty for it??
    ksuttonjr76
    Okay...remove the shoot button, and force everyone to use the shot stick. You'll have competition, and users will still have their "control".

    People who are always talking about the "skill gap" should be all for that. The team would never do that though because IMO they could lose millions of players. I honestly believe that getting button shooting greens is the only reason that some people play 2K. The game would become meaningless to them without it.
    DonkeyJote
    The fact that the user doesn't know is kinda the point. You're taking the control away from the user.
    Literally nobody is saying that percentages aren't too high. The difficulty absolutely needs to be increased. Just that, ultimately, in a competitive game user input should be the driving force. If the game is deciding who wins based on dice rolls, it's not a competitive game.

    I see what you're saying. Especially when bricking wide open shots with a good shooter, and the game deciding it should be a miss. But 1) I don't think "comp" means user input should be in absolutes with zero randomness 2) I think user "input" is the disagreement. Shot Iq isn't user "input" or "mechanics", but imo it should actually supersede shot mechanics. That used to somewhat be the case with 2K. Then Mike Wang started listening to the TwitterTweens and thought shooting was way more finding an easy J to time than the other stuff.
    DonkeyJote
    This is a video game. It's never going to be competitive basketball, until we get to Kinect 16.0 in the year 2100 where you're essentially just playing basketball in your living room. So, they have to make a choice. Do they want it to be a realistic video game representation of NBA basketball, or do they want it to be a competitive video game in a basketball setting. Because, imo, those two things absolutely cannot coexist (in any sports game tbh).

    It's a video game but the goal *should* be to get it as close to basketball realism as possible. I don't understand how comp or "user input determines all" and realism are enemies, they should be friends. Competitive gaming doesn't mean the user controls every input and outcome, it means it rewards the best players at adapting to the gaming environment, using skills, iq, etc. 2K controls the environment. If they make the environment basketball realistic, then competitive players would actually NEED basketball iq to succeed, not only '2k iq'. Seems like you're saying 'user input' is the end-all of competitive gaming, when imo it should be who adapts the best to whatever meta there is or create their own meta of winning. It's funny gamers talk about "meta" like it's some limited bubble they're in, when it's actually an open-ended thing.
    VC and the shot meter were the 2 worst things to happen to the 2K series. I come from the Dreamcast days though so my opinion is probably in the minority lol
    dwayne12345
    I just came here to say that the rationale for penalizing the player for not wanting that ugly, arcade mode looking, charge up bar doesn't register with me.
    It's harder to time shots with the meter off, so you get a penalty for it??

    What? Your chances of greening are better with the meter off....
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app
    ksuttonjr76
    Okay...remove the shoot button, and force everyone to use the shot stick. You'll have competition, and users will still have their "control".

    Also remove the meter and feedback.
    Has no business being in anything that wants to be comp lol.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    ksuttonjr76
    Then that's goes back to my original comment.
    It's basketball. You create the best available shot, and you live with the results. That's a competitive game. NBA 2K11 had it right....

    I understand the argument of doing everything right and missing the shot but I just don’t remember people really complaining about that back then. You just kept it moving because you knew you’d be rewarded more times than not for taking the best shots and also knowing your spots on the floor and your release. It was a reason elite players were still separated from good players. If it was solely random, that wouldn’t have been the case. I doubt we’ll ever see it like that again though. The change Mike made it almost impossible to go back.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    DonkeyJote
    What? Your chances of greening are better with the meter off....
    Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Operation Sports mobile app

    I haven't really been following the conversation, but just FWIW, that won't be true starting with 2K21. You get a bigger boost for using the new shot aiming mechanic than you do for not using a shot meter at all. I think I'll likely stick with having the meter off just because I don't want that stuff on my screen, but it sucks I'll be at a competitive disadvantage for that.
    loso_34
    yes, confirmed by agent zero.

    I heard he said momentum dribble is 86 ball handling and contact dunks is 84 driving dunk but have you heard if that means all the signature dribbling and dunk packages are all the same
    loso_34
    yes, confirmed by agent zero.

    That sucks for contact dunks, IMO. Like what builds can even trigger these? straight blue/finishers only? the NBA has contact dunks done by non explosive dunkers regularly - if you have the size and vertical to be able to dunk, you should be able to land a vicious contact dunk in the right circumstances (like, a good head of steam heading to the ring).
    Nza
    That sucks for contact dunks, IMO. Like what builds can even trigger these? straight blue/finishers only? the NBA has contact dunks done by non explosive dunkers regularly - if you have the size and vertical to be able to dunk, you should be able to land a vicious contact dunk in the right circumstances (like, a good head of steam heading to the ring).

    I think it's been 84 the last few years

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