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How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

madden 23 qb play

Madden NFL 23

How Would You Differentiate How QBs Play in Madden 23 and Beyond

Following the ratings reveals for the QBs in Madden 23, OS user canes21 started a thread talking about QB play in Madden 23 and asked fellow OS folks what they thought EA could do now and in the future to continue to make QBs feel different from one another. It’s a question that comes up in various forms every year, and I think it’s actually one of the more complicated questions out there to answer because of the various factions who play Madden. It’s also one of the most important questions to ask almost every year because it’s quite likely the most used position in the game by a mile. In the real NFL, no position gets more focus (and has more money poured into it), so logically it’s probably what a majority (or at least a plurality) of gameplay development time should go into each season to make it continuously feel new and unique.

That said, what constitutes a good idea for differentiating QB play in Madden 23 and beyond might depend on who you ask. A sim player might want more restrictions on audibles and so on, but we also know in the competitive scene it’s more or less frowned upon if you don’t let your opponent set their audibles at the start of the game by rejecting delay of game penalties — Madden not having a system in place to save audibles online also seems archaic if this “house rule” needs to exist. Regardless of what side of the fence you stand on here, I have come to believe over the years that splitting the users up when it comes to game mechanics is probably a bad idea. It splits resources, and while I like the idea of sim vs. arcade for stuff like how often to call penalties, I like it less when it comes to actual game mechanics like “you can call all the audibles you want in arcade but you’re limited by your awareness rating in sim mode.”

Either way, I think there are some great ideas in this thread (and feel free to add more!), so I want to run through some of them now.

Madden 23 QB Play Differentiation

madden 23 qb play

Skill-Based Passing

Of course, it’s first best to call out what EA is doing this year with skill-based passing. Josh wrote about his feelings on it, and if you played the beta you probably have some thoughts now as well. I’m not going to talk much about the mechanics of skill-based passing here, but I do think it leads perfectly into the first “issue” with a lot of this stuff that user CM Hooe brings up in the thread.

A more recent example is the skill-based passing in the Madden 23 beta. One of the most common responses I saw in the impressions thread on here was “how the hell do I use this, the game doesn’t tell me how”, lol.

This isn’t just a Madden problem. The sport of football has always had an extremely secretive and insular culture, and up until the past five years or so, it has been tough to get knowledge of the game out to the public. Keeping on theme, I didn’t understand how pass protection worked in football until this past year. I didn’t really begin to have any clue what was actually going on in football until about five years ago.

When it comes to video games, football remains the most complicated one to discuss because it’s the most popular American sport, but it’s simultaneously the least understood sport as well. EA does need to teach every single concept introduced in Madden because most people who watch don’t really understand what they’re watching beyond the entertainment value of it.

You can say the same thing about a lot of sports, but the “misunderstanding” reaches a whole other level with something like the NFL. This complicates things because you get diverging viewpoints on what’s important. Rex Dickson, a former creative director on Madden, summed up some of that struggle in a tweet last month:

Shade aside, there is a balance to be considered here with this stuff, and part of that balances goes back to education itself. The NFL has finally started to open up in recent years and give more insider knowledge to the general public, and so I do think the discourse about the game of football is being elevated. However, it’s a long process to get to a point where this knowledge gets to enough people to make “teaching football” less of a priority in video games and beyond.

A New Sort Of Vision Cone

Vision Cone Madden

As always, there is discussion about the vision cone and its legacy in this thread. In a general sense, I would say OS users appreciate what the vision cone tried to do, but they tend to think it was sort of ugly. They want something like it, but they don’t want exactly that concept back. One of the ideas thrown out there for a “modified” version of the vision cone comes from Broncos86:

Tie awareness to how many routes a QB can throw to and the adjustments that can be made at the line. It makes no sense that a QB with a 50 AWR can effectively be put into the hands of the player and have 5 routes accessible and readable and every audible the player wants.

Make low awareness QBs have less options on the field. A rookie QB with low awareness will be lucky to get through more than 2 progressions. This would make designating the primary WR important on the field and it would simulate a low AWR QB effectively “staring down” his WR. Maybe he goes to his 2nd progression, and lucky if he has a third.

Then, make audibles limited. You shouldn’t have the entire playbook at your fingertips at the line as a rookie QB. Limit which audibles are accessible and limit that audible to ONE. No changing the play 3 times at the line.

I think this is where you would run into the first fight between sim users and competitive users. We’ve gone down the audibles and hot routes road before with limiting them based on certain factors. In general, the competitive crowd does not like it. Again, I don’t like splitting the users up when it comes to this stuff, but I do think there might be some wiggle room here if it’s simply tied to bad quarterbacks. I don’t think many competitive players are tanking their QB position, so it might not be often that an awareness rating would be in the dumpster. It gets trickier if you start tying it to certain traits and so on, but I especially like the component here about limiting progressions. It does feel out of place for a rookie QB to come to the line and have five receivers he could throw to when we know it’s usually a one or two read system for these quarterbacks.

Madden NFL 22 Game Pass

Even if folks can’t agree on what to do with how many receivers should be eligible to be thrown to on a specific play in “play now” games, one franchise mode wrinkle that Broncos86 and CM Hooe both touch on to various degrees would be really cool to see. Here’s CM Hooe with an explanation:

Apply a tag to quarterbacks who spent their time in college playing in simplified offensive systems and limit their ability to make certain throws on pass plays. For example, one of the main knocks on Panthers rookie passer Matt Corral was that he played in an RPO-heavy system which did not ask him to perform full-field reads. Add a tag to him which, while his AWR is below a certain threshold, hides the passing icons for all non-backfield receivers on the side of the formation opposite the primary route, and (if they are still in the game) prevents him from calling motion or hot routes to any receiver on that side of the formation. Once his AWR progresses above whatever threshold value is set, the tag is removed and the passing icons on the backside of the play no longer disappear. (This limiting of QB vision would be a more authentic solution for limited QB vision than the old Vision Cone, which I have stated many many times was terrible and IMO it should stay buried and dead).

If people can’t agree on what should be competitive games/play now games, a workaround for getting in some of this cooler stuff for at least offline/franchise mode play would be simply tie it to concepts within franchise mode itself.

Read The Defense

madden 22 roster update conference championships

One of the more in-depth ideas thrown out there comes from user iMac2307. In football terms, it basically sums up how a QB is reading the defense before the snap in terms of what coverages he thinks are out there versus the routes that are about to be run. In video game terms, it’s a sort of cheat sheet where you find out where the QB thinks the ball should go, and now it’s up to you to decide if he’s right or not once the ball is snapped.

While at the LOS, similar to hot-routing or calling an audible, an input can be pressed that would allow for the QB to ‘Read the Defense’. All this simply provides, after a short animation, is visual feedback within the play art on who the QB thinks their primary receiver is. This shouldn’t be locked behind an ‘ability’, or made into a gimmick behind a set of rules as to when it can or can’t be used. Attempting to read the defense at the LOS is something that should be expected out of a professional QB.

Here’s the caveat….this feature would rely upon a rating that determines the QB’s ability to read the defense. This means, when the input is pressed, players such as Tom Brady and Joe Burrow, who score really high in their ability to read a defense, would consistently provide the user (and CPU) reliable feedback on who is best to target on that play. This doesn’t mean it’s an auto-completion, as ratings such as accuracy, WR vs DB match-up, pressure, timing etc still impact the outcome. It also doesn’t mean it’s 100% correct every time.

On the other hand, if I take a QB like Sam Darnold, or a rookie QB who’s ‘Read Defense’ rating may be low, the feedback I receive on who they feel is the primary receiver is could very well be wrong. You’re now much more at the mercy of bad reads of lower rated QBs, or at the mercy of a young guy who’s still getting the grips with NFL defenses. Should you trust their judgement? Should you improvise and target someone else? Should you tailor the game plan if you notice they consistently read the defense wrong?

This input at the LOS would be optional, so you can play more ‘freestyle’ and make your own reads, or if you want to play really sim to your QB’s ratings, you could utilise the feature as often as you like. And for those who play competitively, it’s a feature that is simply turned off.

While there are maybe details or renditions of this concept that could work better than what I’ve proposed, what I ultimately want to see is the outcome of a play being about more than just the accuracy ratings. There’s much more to success at the QB position than just how accurate you are. Madden currently does nothing to reflect this.

OS user IlluminatusUIUC chimes in to explain why he likes this idea as well:

I like this, because there are some QBs (Goff and Ryan Fitzpatrick come to mind) who do decently at reading the play pre-snap but then can get real confused during the play. It would allow for disguised coverages to affect QBs differently based upon their pre- and post-snap reads.

Hottest Take: Remove Hot Routes

madden 22 brady

Hot routes tend to be the thing where the competitive crowd and sim crowd diverge the most. However, I think part of it isn’t so much because there’s a massive disagreement, rather it comes back to general user control. The competitive crowd (and sim crowd for that matter) have bones to pick with the number of plays in the playbook, and really what the competitive user is looking for is certain route combinations that can be hard to find in the base plays. CM Hooe would kill hot routes entirely, but he also would replace hot routes (and tweak audibles) with some new mechanics.

Starting with audibles, he brings up a system where you call two plays in the huddle.

Gate the current audible system behind the AWR rating and adjust the play call system in turn. Adjust the current play call system to require two calls in the huddle; a primary play call and a Kill / Can play call. By default, a quarterback (user-controlled or not) would only have the option to swap between the default play call and the Kill / Can play call at the line. Ideally, this system would also support formation shifts built into the primary play call. An example play call might be Zebra (11 personnel) Gun Empty Y-Trips Rt (original formation) Shift To Gun Y-Trips Rt (shift call), Y-Stick (called play) Can Zone Read (Kill play). Higher-AWR QBs would be afforded access to more audibles, similar to what functionality exists now.

NFL 2k5 gameplay 4

This concept existed in old 2K football games to some extent, as xCoachDx calls out:

You could could hold RT when selecting a formation and that would be the formation you come out in, but then would shift when you were at the line. Also, you could only audible within your formation, but you could select “on the fly” audibles that would be set for that play only.

As for how to replace hot routes, instead of drawing the play up at the line like we do now, CM Hooe wants to tie it to offensive systems:

Add the idea of offensive system verbiage into the game, with certain benefits and drawbacks of each system. Give each system benefits and drawbacks. For example, an Erhardt-Perkins offensive system might require an extremely high-AWR players across the board to run, but a QB in this system would have the power to call whatever route combinations he wants at the line of scrimmage with simple keywords. This is what Tom Brady did in New England for two decades. His Pro Reads Zone ability could be subsequently adjusted to automatically call a beater route combination for whatever coverage concept the defense calls, as opposed to merely highlighting the first open receiver.

Again, I think changing the hot routes system is tricky for a variety of reasons, but I do think CM Hooe is onto something here for at least franchise mode.

QB Play Beyond The Normal

madden 22 rookie qb

Of course, there’s always more to do to simply make QBs feel like real QBs beyond just gameplay. They need to look and sound like their real counterparts, and while this aspect probably takes NFL buy-in to get certain assets, Madden can always use more of what user Detroit Tigers mentions below.

I think QB differentiation isn’t any kind of major problem. There are enough ratings, skills, and traits with enough tangible effects to see and feel. They’re on the right track there already IMO.

What I want is way more unique cadences and way more unique throwing motions, especially as it relates to incoming rookies. There’s only so much you can do with QBs, just like there’s only so much you can do with pitchers in MLB The Show. They need better quality, more unique throwing motions, and better hand/ball physics when the throw comes out of the hand.

Like, make the QBs move, throw and sound f’ing sweet for once. That will go a lot farther than people think, I bet.

More gameplay-related but on that same track, CM Hooe also mentions snap counts. We have heard unique snap counts in the game before, but CM Hooe would like more done with these audio assets on the gameplay front:

Add game mechanics around the idea of snap counts. In addition to a play call, you also call a snap count in the huddle. Add Superstar abilities around snap counts. “Commanding Voice” prevents offensive false starts, “Hard Count” increases defensive offsides penalties, “Megaphone” prevents audibles and pre-snap adjustment calls from failing during road games, etc. etc.

Don’t Forget About The AI

madden 22 roster update div

I want to end by pointing out that most of this topic relates to you as the quarterback. But there is the AI component that can matter here. CM Hooe points out the first elephant in the room by mentioning that the AI QBs need to use more of what’s in the game (users do more than the AI in terms of pre-snap reads and such right now).

The note I was making about the CPU was specifically that they don’t do these manual actions. The CPU lives with whatever Mike the OL IDs, cannot call a pass blocking hot route for a back or a tight end, cannot call a slide protection (it relies solely on the OL doing that post-snap based on the Mike ID at formation set), and so on.

Fixes and adjustments need to apply to franchise mode, plus how QBs progress/deteriorate as JoshC1977 points out

There’s another element here; and I am looking strictly at CPU QBs: the ‘sense pressure’ and ‘force passes’ traits. These are both fairly critical to QB behavior but I think there is one flaw that stands out to me.

These traits need to be dynamic in franchise based on specific ratings combinations. As QBs evolve or regress, these traits (IMO) should change over time as well. Seeing game-generated players with high-awareness still exhibit the paranoid trait (because it is locked, barring a user edit) doesn’t make a ton of sense IMO. (As an aside, ‘tight spiral’ should also be dynamic based on throwing power and possibly the accuracy ratings)

If not changing the current ratings in the game, I would think that force passes would be based on a combination of awareness and throwing power (argument here is that QBs with big arms tend to force passes more). I think ‘sense pressure’ would be based on awareness, TUP, and maybe break sack.

To really do this well though, the approach to how regression is handled for QBs needs to be modified as well. I’d like to see older QBs take bigger hits to athletic skills and throwing power while losing less in the “mental traits”. Watching Drew Brees age is such a good recent example – he was still savvy, still pretty accurate with his throws, but he just couldn’t get the ball downfield very well. He was a far different player than when he was in his prime.

Watching regression in Madden, QBs get dumber too…which doesn’t make sense to me.

Madden 22 player meeting

User Mattanite also wants the offensive scheme tag system back, and how that can play into tendencies. I like how he points out how it could build into the scenario system in franchise mode as well.

Bring back the Offensive Scheme tag for each player that used to be in the game which comes with a set of personal throwing zone tendency % (low, medium, high, outside left, inside, outside right, backfield = 10 zones). CPU QBs are more likely to throw preferred zone routes even if slightly more covered than more open routes in less preferred zones (would need an under the hood recognition system for balancing open-slightly covered-covered-doubled vs tendency/preference).

When a QB signs with a team their personal scheme tendency combines with a team offensive scheme tendency map. So a matching scheme cpu QB will “look” at a lot more routes that fit the scheme and other player archetypes (e.g. Spread QB looking at even more backfield and short outside throws in a Spread Scheme to a Receiving HB).

A mismatch could result in a wider range of thrown areas that might not always fit the WR archetypes (Vertical Power Run QB throwing it deep more in a Spread scheme where Playmaker WR look to get open short but not great deep, ignores the Receiving HB more or vice versa, a Spread QB throwing it down a lot to a poor catch Power HB in a Vertical Power system).

Scheme match or mismatch could also then trigger scenarios where a disgruntled WR wants more short routes or a Receiving HB wants more catches, Power HB wants to scheme more runs and less catches.

madden 22 roster update week 4

Lastly, user Fall_DIFH wants to point out that the AI QBs with similar attribute profiles need to be more unique. He calls out some tendencies/frequencies to try and keep that ball rolling.

In 2K you can have two players with the exact same stats and the tendencies will have them acting wildly different. Why can’t we get something as simple as:

  • Check down frequency
  • Step up in pocket frequency
  • Move outside pocket frequency
  • Scramble frequency
  • Throw on run frequency

That’s not even scratching the surface, but would differentiate people like Josh Allen from Justin Herbert despite their physical profiles being pretty much identical.

Bottom Line

madden nfl 23 beta impressions

As usual, the OS folks have plenty of good ideas when they’re not just in “burn it all down” mode, and so I do think folks should head to the thread and continue the discourse. I want to end on a positive post as well because I do think QB play has been a priority for the development team in a positive way, so I would just reiterate that it should remain a major focus every season.

User ijumpedthegun sums up my general thoughts below:

I love all the ideas from this thread. I have to say, however, that this is one area where I feel like EA has actually done a decent job in recent years. Adding the different QB release timings, changing the motion for cross-body throws, changing the throw power ratings, and superstar abilities have brought Madden a long way from where it was 3 years ago in styles of QB play.

Still room to grow, but credit where it’s due.

Here’s to Madden 23 and beyond continuing to evolve QB play.

95 Comments

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Discussion
  1. I lightly alluded to this in the EA Sports College Football expectations thread, but I would love to see Tiburon add more game mechanics around the mental side of quarterback play. There are a few areas which are dramatically under-represented right now which could stand to see a refresh: play calling, snap count, pre-snap adjustments, and ability to make post-snap reads.
    A smattering of ideas to this end:
    - Gate the current audible system behind the AWR rating and adjust the play call system in turn. Adjust the current play call system to require two calls in the huddle; a primary play call and a Kill / Can play call. By default, a quarterback (user-controlled or not) would only have the option to swap between the default play call and the Kill / Can play call at the line. Ideally, this system would also support formation shifts built into the primary play call. An example play call might be Zebra (11 personnel) Gun Empty Y-Trips Rt (original formation) Shift To Gun Y-Trips Rt (shift call), Y-Stick (called play) Can Zone Read (Kill play). Higher-AWR QBs would be afforded access to more audibles, similar to what functionality exists now.
    - Add game mechanics around the idea of snap counts; in addition to a play call, you also call a snap count in the huddle. Add Superstar abilities around snap counts; "Commanding Voice" prevents offensive false starts, "Hard Count" increases defensive offsides penalties, "Megaphone" prevents audibles and pre-snap adjustment calls from failing during road games, etc. etc.
    - Add the idea of offensive system verbiage into the game, with certain benefits and drawbacks of each system. Give each system benefits and drawbacks. For example, an Erhardt-Perkins offensive system might require an extremely high-AWR players across the board to run, but a QB in this system would have the power to call whatever route combinations he wants at the line of scrimmage with simple keywords. This is what Tom Brady did in New England for two decades. His Pro Reads Zone ability could be subsequently adjusted to automatically call a beater route combination for whatever coverage concept the defense calls, as opposed to merely highlighting the first open receiver.
    - Apply a tag to quarterbacks who spent their time in college playing in simplified offensive systems and limit their ability to make certain throws on pass plays. For example, one of the main knocks on Panthers rookie passer Matt Corral was that he played in an RPO-heavy system which did not ask him to perform full-field reads. Add a tag to him which, while his AWR is below a certain threshold, hides the passing icons for all non-backfield receivers on the side of the formation opposite the primary route, and (if they are still in the game) prevents him from calling motion or hot routes to any receiver on that side of the formation. Once his AWR progresses above whatever threshold value is set, the tag is removed and the passing icons on the backside of the play no longer disappear. (This limiting of QB vision would be a more authentic solution for limited QB vision than the old Vision Cone, which I have stated many many times was terrible and IMO it should stay buried and dead).
    - Dump hot routes entirely. Do not allow users to draw plays in the dirt at the line of scrimmage.
    Tie awareness to how many routes a QB can throw to and the adjustments that can be made at the line. It makes no sense that a QB with a 50 AWR can effectively be put into the hands of the player and have 5 routes accessible and readable and every audible the player wants.
    Make low awareness QBs have less options on the field. A rookie QB with low awareness will be lucky to get through more than 2 progressions. This would make designating the primary WR important on the field and it would simulate a low AWR QB effectively "staring down" his WR. Maybe he goes to his 2nd progression, and lucky if he has a third.
    Then, make audibles limited. You shouldn't have the entire playbook at your fingertips at the line as a rookie QB. Limit which audibles are accessible and limit that audible to ONE. No changing the play 3 times at the line.
    Lastly, implement a rating for how well the QB understands the playbook and tie it to Awareness. A rookie QB may not have the entire playbook available on week 1. Awareness can tie into how quickly a QB can learn the system. This can also be true for a QB who is traded. That QB might be traded in week 6 and shouldn't know the whole playbook in week 7. Perhaps the QB's knowledge is tied to the type of playbook (West Coast, etc) to account for a QB being more familiar with some systems than others. This could also play a factor in drafting a QB who played in a Run / Gun offense will take longer to digest a more pro style.
    I think QB differentiation isn’t any kind of problem per se. There are enough ratings, skills and traits with enough tangible effects to see and feel. They’re on the right track there already imo.
    What I want is way more unique cadences and way more unique throwing motions, especially as it relates to incoming rookies. There’s only so much you can do with QBs, just like there’s only so much you can do with pitchers in MLBTS. They need better-quality, more-unique throwing-motions and better hand/ball physics when the throw comes out of the hand.
    Like, make them move, throw and sound ****in’ sweet for once. That will go a lot farther than people think, I bet.
    If they want to differentiate QBs, they should start with the mean value theorem.
    😂 just kidding
    What makes QBs different in real life? First of all, accuracy. They already are doing a decent job with that.
    Next, it’s vision. I don’t think a vision cone is the solution to that, because it’s ugly. I think a better solution is what amounts to an INVISIBLE vision cone. Have a mechanic where you can rotate your feet to have you face a third of the field, and when you do this you get an accuracy boost. It will take a split second more time, but if you don’t do it, your pass might be more inaccurate. But the great QBs? They’ll have no need for that.
    After that, there isn’t much more you can do other than get gimmicky with hiding routes. But I think these two things could be enough.
    jyod21
    Vision cone, but it didn’t seem to be loved it’s first time around.

    I actually liked the vision cone when it first came out. What I remember most about it was Peyton manning a cone took up an entire half of the field lol.
    I remember QB’s had signature throwing styles. They had throws that looked like how they really threw in real life. Some were slow and some were super quick. Tony Romo had one that I remember looked really good, as well as one for John Elway. I know they still technically have signature throw styles in the game, but they all look super generic and most qb’s just have generic 1
    People on OS are outliers IMO in terms of being able to User a QB who is under an 80 OVR and win 10-17 games every season. Normal players(I'm in this group) don't need all these extra handicaps to struggle with lower rated QBs.
    Everything here being mentioned is realistic and I wouldn't be opposed to any of them being in the game, but I'm not sure that the Dev team wants to make things that much more difficult for the average player.
    Bring back the Offensive Scheme tag for each player that used to be in the game which comes with a set of personal throwing zone tendency % (low, medium, high, outside left, inside, outside right, backfield = 10 zones). CPU QBs are more likely to throw preferred zone routes even if slightly more covered than more open routes in less preferred zones (would need an under the hood recognition system for balancing open-slightly covered-covered-doubled vs tendency/preference).
    When a QB signs with a team their personal scheme tendency combines with a team offensive scheme tendency map. So a matching scheme cpu QB will "look" at a lot more routes that fit the scheme and other player archetypes (e.g. Spread QB looking at even more backfield and short outside throws in a Spread Scheme to a Receiving HB).
    A mismatch could result in a wider range of thrown areas that might not always fit the WR archetypes (Vertical Power Run QB throwing it deep more in a Spread scheme where Playmaker WR look to get open short but not great deep, ignores the Receiving HB more or vice versa, a Spread QB throwing it down a lot to a poor catch Power HB in a Vertical Power system).
    Scheme match or mismatch could also then trigger scenarios where a disgruntled WR wants more short routes or a Receiving HB wants more catches, Power HB wants to scheme more runs and less catches.
    CM Hooe
    I lightly alluded to this in the EA Sports College Football expectations thread, but I would love to see Tiburon add more game mechanics around the mental side of quarterback play. There are a few areas which are dramatically under-represented right now which could stand to see a refresh: play calling, snap count, pre-snap adjustments, and ability to make post-snap reads.
    A smattering of ideas to this end:
    - Gate the current audible system behind the AWR rating and adjust the play call system in turn. Adjust the current play call system to require two calls in the huddle; a primary play call and a Kill / Can play call. By default, a quarterback (user-controlled or not) would only have the option to swap between the default play call and the Kill / Can play call at the line. Ideally, this system would also support formation shifts built into the primary play call. An example play call might be Zebra (11 personnel) Gun Empty Y-Trips Rt (original formation) Shift To Gun Y-Trips Rt (shift call), Y-Stick (called play) Can Zone Read (Kill play). Higher-AWR QBs would be afforded access to more audibles, similar to what functionality exists now.
    - Add game mechanics around the idea of snap counts; in addition to a play call, you also call a snap count in the huddle. Add Superstar abilities around snap counts; "Commanding Voice" prevents offensive false starts, "Hard Count" increases defensive offsides penalties, "Megaphone" prevents audibles and pre-snap adjustment calls from failing during road games, etc. etc.
    - Add the idea of offensive system verbiage into the game, with certain benefits and drawbacks of each system. Give each system benefits and drawbacks. For example, an Erhardt-Perkins offensive system might require an extremely high-AWR players across the board to run, but a QB in this system would have the power to call whatever route combinations he wants at the line of scrimmage with simple keywords. This is what Tom Brady did in New England for two decades. His Pro Reads Zone ability could be subsequently adjusted to automatically call a beater route combination for whatever coverage concept the defense calls, as opposed to merely highlighting the first open receiver.
    - Apply a tag to quarterbacks who spent their time in college playing in simplified offensive systems and limit their ability to make certain throws on pass plays. For example, one of the main knocks on Panthers rookie passer Matt Corral was that he played in an RPO-heavy system which did not ask him to perform full-field reads. Add a tag to him which, while his AWR is below a certain threshold, hides the passing icons for all non-backfield receivers on the side of the formation opposite the primary route, and (if they are still in the game) prevents him from calling motion or hot routes to any receiver on that side of the formation. Once his AWR progresses above whatever threshold value is set, the tag is removed and the passing icons on the backside of the play no longer disappear. (This limiting of QB vision would be a more authentic solution for limited QB vision than the old Vision Cone, which I have stated many many times was terrible and IMO it should stay buried and dead).
    - Dump hot routes entirely. Do not allow users to draw plays in the dirt at the line of scrimmage.

    Nailed it. 100% what should be done. But in the world of online "competitive" gaming, I doubt they would ever do it. Maybe they could at least put this in place for offline modes, and an opt-in setting for online leagues/unranked matches?
    The game is over a decade behind NBA2K on player tendencies and that is why the game fails to have individual diversity and they have to hide behind tons of OP abilities.
    In 2K you can have two players with the exact same stats and the tendencies will have them acting wildly different. Why can’t we get something as simple as-
    Check down frequency
    Step up in pocket frequency
    Move outside pocket frequency
    Scramble frequency
    Throw on run frequency
    That’s not even scratching the surface, but would differentiate people like Josh Allen from Justin Herbert despite their physical profiles being pretty much identical.
    Same for every other position and especially ball carriers where they have their own unique quirks. Physically they could all do the same things at the top level but everyone has their favorite moves.
    I love all the ideas from this thread. I have to say, however, that this is one area where I feel like EA has actually done a decent job in recent years. Adding the different QB release timings, changing the motion for cross-body throws, changing the throw power ratings, and superstar abilities have brought Madden a long way from where it was 3 years ago in styles of QB play.
    Still room to grow, but credit where it's due.
    ijumpedthegun
    I love all the ideas from this thread. I have to say, however, that this is one area where I feel like EA has actually done a decent job in recent years. Adding the different QB release timings, changing the motion for cross-body throws, changing the throw power ratings, and superstar abilities have brought Madden a long way from where it was 3 years ago in styles of QB play.
    Still room to grow, but credit where it's due.

    I would love abilities to get tiered and somewhat detached from dev. So say OVR determines slots and attribute gates on certain abilities but you can have bronze tier abilities as a normal dev. And then include an off field ability slot for franchise. That would add a lot more differentiation to the normal dev and star dev QBs.
    Fall_DIFH
    The game is over a decade behind NBA2K on player tendencies and that is why the game fails to have individual diversity and they have to hide behind tons of OP abilities.
    In 2K you can have two players with the exact same stats and the tendencies will have them acting wildly different. Why can’t we get something as simple as-
    Check down frequency
    Step up in pocket frequency
    Move outside pocket frequency
    Scramble frequency
    Throw on run frequency
    That’s not even scratching the surface, but would differentiate people like Josh Allen from Justin Herbert despite their physical profiles being pretty much identical.
    Same for every other position and especially ball carriers where they have their own unique quirks. Physically they could all do the same things at the top level but everyone has their favorite moves.

    If there's one player they need to mo-cap for his unique quirks it's NYG WR Kadarius Toney. It's a crime to have a game where he moves like every other receiver/ball carrier.
    jyod21
    Vision cone, but it didn’t seem to be loved it’s first time around.

    I absolutely loved it. The skinnier the cone the better the feature was too, once you kinda had the grasp. I loved using guys like Vick, with skinny cones, and literally look off user defenders by placing the cone away from where I’d eventually throw. The feature got a bad rap.
    maybe some sort of third down rating, that either makes your qb more, or less, or even the same,
    accurate with passes. depending on how accurate they are on 3rd down IRL
    GridironGreat
    I absolutely loved it. The skinnier the cone the better the feature was too, once you kinda had the grasp. I loved using guys like Vick, with skinny cones, and literally look off user defenders by placing the cone away from where I’d eventually throw. The feature got a bad rap.

    The Vision Cone was a giant pain in the butt that simply turned into pressing your target's button twice for anyone who played offline. That's literally all it was. It was a pain and it added nothing to gameplay beyond a second button press. Or you had Peyton Manning and his cone basically covered 90% of the field.
    EccentricMeat
    Nailed it. 100% what should be done. But in the world of online "competitive" gaming, I doubt they would ever do it. Maybe they could at least put this in place for offline modes, and an opt-in setting for online leagues/unranked matches?

    I don’t think it is really a competitive vs sim thing, to be honest. The bigger problem that Tiburon has to stare down every year when deciding what to add into the game IMO is that (I’m roughly guessing here) probably 70% of their audience doesn’t understand how football actually works.
    Anything advanced football mechanic that Tiburon wants to add into the game, they also have to teach it. Building teaching tools requires more development time. Otherwise it just gets left hanging like ID The Mike, and people complain about nano blitzes in 2022 because they don’t understand the offensive line’s pass protection rules and how to manipulate them to their own advantage. Heck, the game’s own AI doesn’t even understand how to manipulate pass protection. A more recent example is the Skill Based Passing in the Madden 23 beta; one of the most common responses I saw in the impressions thread on here was “how the hell do I use this, the game doesn’t tell me how”, lol.
    This isn’t just a Madden problem. The sport of football has always had an extremely secretive and insular culture, and up until the past five years or so, it has been tough to get knowledge of the game out to the public. Keeping on theme, I didn’t understand how pass protection worked in football until this past year. I didn’t really begin to have any clue what was actually going on in football until about five years ago.
    I've always had an idea for a feature that I feel would bring more realism to how both the user and CPU QB's react to the defense in front of them, and really isn't complicated for EA to apply. It works as follows:
    While at the LOS, similar to hot-routing or calling an audible, an input can be pressed that would allow for the QB to 'Read the Defense'. All this simply provides, after a short animation, is visual feedback within the play art on who the QB thinks their primary receiver is. This shouldn't be locked behind an 'ability', or made into a gimmick behind a set of rules as to when it can or can't be used. Attempting to read the defense at the LOS is something that should be expected out of a professional QB.
    Here's the caveat....this feature would rely upon a rating that determines the QB's ability to read the defense. This means, when the input is pressed, players such as Tom Brady and Joe Burrow, who score really high in their ability to read a defense, would consistently provide the user (and CPU) reliable feedback on who is best to target on that play. This doesn't mean it's an auto-completion, as ratings such as accuracy, WR vs DB match-up, pressure, timing etc still impact the outcome. It also doesn't mean it's 100% correct every time.
    On the other hand, if I take a QB like Sam Darnold, or a rookie QB who's 'Read Defense' rating may be low, the feedback I receive on who they feel is the primary receiver is could very well be wrong. You're now much more at the mercy of bad reads of lower rated QB's, or at the mercy of a young guy who's still getting the grips with NFL defenses. Should you trust their judgement? Should you improvise and target someone else? Should you tailor the gameplan if you notice they consistently read the defense wrong?
    This input at the LOS would be optional, so you can play more 'freestyle' and make your own reads, or if you want to play really sim to your QB's ratings, you could utilise the feature as often as you like. And for those who play competitively, it's a feature that is simply turned off.
    While there are maybe details or renditions of this concept that could work better than what I've proposed, what I ultimately want to see is the outcome of a play being about more than just the accuracy ratings. There's much more to success at the QB position than just how accurate you are. Madden currently does nothing to reflect this.
    Kanobi
    If there's one player they need to mo-cap for his unique quirks it's NYG WR Kadarius Toney. It's a crime to have a game where he moves like every other receiver/ball carrier.

    Yeah some mocap of him walking to the trainer's table and getting on the workout bike would really help the realism of his on field impact in the NFL.
    Jk. I do think it would be cool if they could start to get some mocap during the Senior Bowl practices/game. If they get the young guys as they enter the league they could get more use of the work they put in. Even getting the top young QBs like Kyler, Allen, Mahomes, Burrow, Herbert, etc to mocap some releases and footwork would be cool.
    My suggestion would not sit well with the Madden crowd but here goes:
    Since the beginning of time, in madden if you want to throw to the 'a' receiver, you press 'a'. "A" was always the receiver on the far left and "X" was always the recever on the far right. My solution...
    This changes with QBs with low awareness. So if your awareness is 99-90, this remains status quo. If you're awareness is 89-80, then maybe "X" becomes the button for the left receiver and "A" becomes the button for the right receiver. If youre awareness is 79-70 then maybe the buttons changes for three different receivers. If the awareness is below 60 then you don't know which button is for which receiver until you snap the ball.
    You would really have to relearn how to play the game and I recognize that not everyone is willing to do that.
    iMac2307
    While at the LOS, similar to hot-routing or calling an audible, an input can be pressed that would allow for the QB to 'Read the Defense'. All this simply provides, after a short animation, is visual feedback within the play art on who the QB thinks their primary receiver is.

    I like this, because there are some QBs (Goff and Ryan Fitzpatrick come to mind) who do decently at reading the play pre-snap but then can get real confused during the play. It would allow for disguised coverages to affect QBs differently based upon their pre- and post-snap reads.
    CM Hooe
    I don’t think it is really a competitive vs sim thing, to be honest. The bigger problem that Tiburon has to stare down every year when deciding what to add into the game IMO is that (I’m roughly guessing here) probably 70% of their audience doesn’t understand how football actually works.
    Anything advanced football mechanic that Tiburon wants to add into the game, they also have to teach it. Building teaching tools requires more development time. Otherwise it just gets left hanging like ID The Mike, and people complain about nano blitzes in 2022 because they don’t understand the offensive line’s pass protection rules and how to manipulate them to their own advantage. Heck, the game’s own AI doesn’t even understand how to manipulate pass protection. A more recent example is the Skill Based Passing in the Madden 23 beta; one of the most common responses I saw in the impressions thread on here was “how the hell do I use this, the game doesn’t tell me how”, lol.
    This isn’t just a Madden problem. The sport of football has always had an extremely secretive and insular culture, and up until the past five years or so, it has been tough to get knowledge of the game out to the public. Keeping on theme, I didn’t understand how pass protection worked in football until this past year. I didn’t really begin to have any clue what was actually going on in football until about five years ago.
    I really have to disagree with the root of the football iQ part you touched on. Madden has pop warner logic in its nfl model of football gaming. Understanding line play etc, sounds good to make EA seem like the smartesr ppl in the room, but lets be honest. As you stated, madden OL AI doesnt even understand how to work properly; yet you say its the users lack of football IQ that makes it hard to improve the game.
    Im trying to understand what could possibly be so confusing to users about fixing blocking and instashed to match ratings and ratios consistent with the nfl. Forming a true to life pocket or having wr fight for the ball and adjust to passes thrown in real time instead of the db getting the split second faster reaction to the QB release. What knowledge is confusing about defenders not seeing players run across their face to open holes they should have contained or covered with match logic. These are basic football things, hell even backyard football knowledge but the IQ statement is what makes it hard for them.
    I think youre speaking from madden 33 and we are still stuck in 2022 unfortunately. Saying this because until they get to even full pop warner level logic and high school and college level qb play and blocking correctly, then its a sad excuse but ur not an employee so you get a pass for trying to help. I just have to agree to disagree.
    Dont even start me on rb vision or timeout logic, ai natural common sense to adjust route based on play call and coverage post snap etc. I wish they were as smart as you assume tho so we could get the ball rolling a hell of alot faster with development each yr.
    Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
    I'm just hoping they keep mocapping throwing motions of everyone they can because I would prefer more to choose from. I like more passing trajectories, too, if they can get those in.
    I love a lot of the items referenced in this thread, specifically CM Hooe's post.
    There's another element here; and I am looking strictly at CPU QBs; the 'sense pressure' and 'force passes' traits. These are both fairly critical to QB behavior but I think there is one flaw that stands out to me.
    These traits need to be dynamic in franchise based on specific ratings combinations. As QBs evolve or regress, these traits (IMO) should change over time as well. Seeing game-generated players with high-awareness still exhibit the paranoid trait (because it is locked, barring a user edit) doesn't make a ton of sense IMO. (As an aside, 'tight spiral' should also be dynamic based on throwing power and possibly the accuracy ratings)
    If not changing the current ratings in the game, I would think that force passes would be based on a combination of awareness and throwing power (argument here is that QBs with big arms tend to force passes more). I think 'sense pressure' would be based on awareness, TUP, and maybe break sack.
    To really do this well though, the approach to how regression is handled for QBs needs to be modified as well. I'd like to see older QBs take bigger hits to athletic skills and throwing power while losing less in the "mental traits". Watching Drew Brees age is such a good recent example - he was still savvy, still pretty accurate with his throws, but he just couldn't get the ball downfield very well. He was a far different player than when he was in his prime.
    Watching regression in Madden; QBs get dumber too...which doesn't make sense to me.
    I quit Madden 22 for the similar problem: Team building was too easy because the user had no need to have an elite QB. Athletic abilities + decent accuracy was enough. I was really good with Trey Lance in year because with me as "his brain" his actual issues did not show up on the field. The CPU QBs differentiated better than ever before in my opinion (obviously still a lot of room for improvement.
    With some of the ideas I saw I might be trying the following workarounds in the futures, as I am pretty sure EA will not give us anything to limit the users influence of QB play.
    - I will build QB tiers with the AWR rating as a guideline.
    - Bad AWR ==> I will use Zoom Cam for passing (I struggle with it when passing); Elite AWR ==> I will use all 22 for passing (I find it much easier for passing); I will have to look at the AWR distribution with the ratings, but I will use standard cam only for above average QBs as I was rather good with it at the mental part of QBing
    - I also will restrict the numbers of reads per play based on the AWR rating
    - No audibles with bad AWR ratings
    Im looking forward to see if this brings fresh air for me to the game. Thanks for the inspiration.
    I think limiting the reciever icons is a good way to simulate QB awareness, traits and playbook familiarity. If a QB has like a 65 awareness they can only see the primary reciever. You could still throw to the other receivers whose icons you can't see but it would come with a big accuracy hit.
    It could also work in situations where a QB has high awareness but has the "happy feet" trait. As long as I have protection I can see all my receivers, but if the pocket starts collapsing the icons could flip, or disappear, or fade to simulate the user QB getting nervous. It could make blitzing and applying pressure a legit good strategy against even human opponents.
    Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app
    GoJags904
    I really have to disagree with the root of the football iQ part you touched on. Madden has pop warner logic in its nfl model of football gaming. Understanding line play etc, sounds good to make EA seem like the smartesr ppl in the room, but lets be honest. As you stated, madden OL AI doesnt even understand how to work properly; yet you say its the users lack of football IQ that makes it hard to improve the game.

    No, you are misunderstanding what I am saying. The protection concepts and tools are indeed already in Madden 22; my point was the CPU doesn’t demonstrate knowledge of these mechanics to use them to set up more advanced protections.
    There’s a lot of authentic pass blocking behavior that is already in Madden. Big-on-big and nearest-threat principles are in the game. Jet protection is in the game. Scat protection is in the game. 5-0 protection is in the game. Running back 2-read behavior is in the game. Four-man slide protection is in the game. These are all NFL concepts and protections used every Sunday, and they are all represented in Madden. Tiburon could add more, absolutely, but until we get E-T stunts, read blitzes, and more advanced defensive mechanics adding more here is arguably unnecessary.
    Most of the time, Madden handles how to set the protection for the offense as best it can (because again, OL play is arcane to the average football fan), based on offensive formation, defensive front, and player ratings. For a user to manually set a specific protection, it is often required to use a combination of ID The Mike, slide protection, and formation shifts all in one play to set up that one protection correctly, but this is all very possible in the Madden 22 game you and I both have right now. The pass blocking animations aren’t great in M22 (especially the lack of depth of the tackles in five and seven step dropback passes), but the acts of picking targets and passing off rushers are on point.
    The note I was making about the CPU was specifically that they don’t do these manual actions. The CPU lives with whatever Mike the OL IDs, cannot call a pass blocking hot route for a back or a tight end, cannot call a slide protection (it relies solely on the OL doing that post-snap based on the Mike ID at formation set), and so on.
    As an aside - given that the Madden NFL team literally has a former NFL offensive lineman as one of its most senior members, not to mention access to coaching materials none of us are privy to, I am inclined to believe they have more institutional knowledge about how OL play should play out than us folks, none of us who ever played offensive line in the NFL.
    Additionally: though I wasn’t talking about run blocking, the run block schemes and targeting for Power-O, Counter, Trap, Toss, Crack Toss, Inside Zone, Outside Zone, and Split Zone all work great to fantastic. The run blocking in Madden 22 is easily better than any other football game that has ever existed, it’s honestly the only remarkable component of the game IMO.
    Im trying to understand what could possibly be so confusing to users about fixing blocking and instashed to match ratings and ratios consistent with the nfl.

    Again, you aren’t understanding what I am saying. Most people don’t know what Jet / Scat / Solid / 5-0 / Lucy / Rita / Lasso / etc. protection calls are. Most people don’t know the implications of ID’ing the Mike. Most people don’t understand how Power-O blocking changes based on the surface the defense presents. You are kidding yourself if you think the average NFL football fan understands offensive line play beyond “Von Miller has beat that tackle like a drum”.
    Junior Moe
    I think limiting the reciever icons is a good way to simulate QB awareness, traits and playbook familiarity. If a QB has like a 65 awareness they can only see the primary reciever. You could still throw to the other receivers whose icons you can't see but it would come with a big accuracy hit.
    It could also work in situations where a QB has high awareness but has the "happy feet" trait. As long as I have protection I can see all my receivers, but if the pocket starts collapsing the icons could flip, or disappear, or fade to simulate the user QB getting nervous. It could make blitzing and applying pressure a legit good strategy against even human opponents.
    Sent from my SM-G950U using Operation Sports mobile app

    Piggybacking this line of thinking, definitely. Like, if the QB has a 65 or lower rating, they see the WR icons only a split second after the snap. 66 to 75 rating, they see primary WR for 3 seconds and two other WR for 1 second only. 76-89 rating, they see primary WR the whole time, secondary WR for 3 seconds, slot WR and HB in the flat for 1 second. 90+ rating, they see every icon the whole time.
    THAT would be huge and change the game.
    Caulfield
    maybe some sort of third down rating, that either makes your qb more, or less, or even the same,
    accurate with passes. depending on how accurate they are on 3rd down IRL

    I actually really like that idea
    CM Hooe
    I lightly alluded to this in the EA Sports College Football expectations thread, but I would love to see Tiburon add more game mechanics around the mental side of quarterback play. There are a few areas which are dramatically under-represented right now which could stand to see a refresh: play calling, snap count, pre-snap adjustments, and ability to make post-snap reads.
    A smattering of ideas to this end:
    - Gate the current audible system behind the AWR rating and adjust the play call system in turn. Adjust the current play call system to require two calls in the huddle; a primary play call and a Kill / Can play call. By default, a quarterback (user-controlled or not) would only have the option to swap between the default play call and the Kill / Can play call at the line. Ideally, this system would also support formation shifts built into the primary play call. An example play call might be Zebra (11 personnel) Gun Empty Y-Trips Rt (original formation) Shift To Gun Y-Trips Rt (shift call), Y-Stick (called play) Can Zone Read (Kill play). Higher-AWR QBs would be afforded access to more audibles, similar to what functionality exists now.
    - Add game mechanics around the idea of snap counts; in addition to a play call, you also call a snap count in the huddle. Add Superstar abilities around snap counts; "Commanding Voice" prevents offensive false starts, "Hard Count" increases defensive offsides penalties, "Megaphone" prevents audibles and pre-snap adjustment calls from failing during road games, etc. etc.
    - Add the idea of offensive system verbiage into the game, with certain benefits and drawbacks of each system. Give each system benefits and drawbacks. For example, an Erhardt-Perkins offensive system might require an extremely high-AWR players across the board to run, but a QB in this system would have the power to call whatever route combinations he wants at the line of scrimmage with simple keywords. This is what Tom Brady did in New England for two decades. His Pro Reads Zone ability could be subsequently adjusted to automatically call a beater route combination for whatever coverage concept the defense calls, as opposed to merely highlighting the first open receiver.
    - Apply a tag to quarterbacks who spent their time in college playing in simplified offensive systems and limit their ability to make certain throws on pass plays. For example, one of the main knocks on Panthers rookie passer Matt Corral was that he played in an RPO-heavy system which did not ask him to perform full-field reads. Add a tag to him which, while his AWR is below a certain threshold, hides the passing icons for all non-backfield receivers on the side of the formation opposite the primary route, and (if they are still in the game) prevents him from calling motion or hot routes to any receiver on that side of the formation. Once his AWR progresses above whatever threshold value is set, the tag is removed and the passing icons on the backside of the play no longer disappear. (This limiting of QB vision would be a more authentic solution for limited QB vision than the old Vision Cone, which I have stated many many times was terrible and IMO it should stay buried and dead).
    - Dump hot routes entirely. Do not allow users to draw plays in the dirt at the line of scrimmage.

    2K did similar to this back in the day. You could could hold RT when selecting a formation and that would be the formation you come out in, but then would shift when you were at the line. Also, you could only audible within your formation, but you could select “on the fly” audibles that would be set for that play only.
    If they can do it, EA can d…. Well. You know what i mean.
    Dagan
    Piggybacking this line of thinking, definitely. Like, if the QB has a 65 or lower rating, they see the WR icons only a split second after the snap. 66 to 75 rating, they see primary WR for 3 seconds and two other WR for 1 second only. 76-89 rating, they see primary WR the whole time, secondary WR for 3 seconds, slot WR and HB in the flat for 1 second. 90+ rating, they see every icon the whole time.
    THAT would be huge and change the game.
    I would be fine with this type of system, honestly, but I feel the average Madden player would be so loud about disliking this that it would be done away with after 1 year.
    I do think to differentiate user QBs more you need to do more things like this that are more gamey, and I can live with that.
    I'd even be fine if your QBs awareness being low meant that you didn't see icons pre-snap and then when you snapped the ball it was random what button each receiver was. This is along the lines with what you're going for, but may be potentially more acceptable with the average Madden player?
    Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
    canes21

    Following the ratings reveals for the QBs in Madden 23, OS user canes21 started a thread...
    Written By: Chase Becotte
    Click here to view the article.

    Some of these ideas are too much. Reducing how many routes a QB can throw is a bad idea, because that forces a certain scheme in terms of progression, while not every team will look at the same play art and have the same progressions.
    A much better—and dare I say, more realistic—option, is to just have icons disappear shortly after the snap. Or if you want to simulate pre-snap confusion, make some of them invisible. But don’t eliminate them from possibility of being thrown.
    .
    .
    .
    Another thing is to simulate “see it, throw it” quarterbacking (where the young QB will hesitate and not throw with anticipation) is to add in an additional animation of the QB turning his head and looking before the throw. You could still have fast releases when the ball is THROWN; but adding some sort of animation delay could simulate slower processing. Maybe patting the ball or double clutching it could work as well.
    ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
    Some of these ideas are too much. Reducing how many routes a QB can throw is a bad idea, because that forces a certain scheme in terms of progression, while not every team will look at the same play art and have the same progressions.
    A much better—and dare I say, more realistic—option, is to just have icons disappear shortly after the snap. Or if you want to simulate pre-snap confusion, make some of them invisible. But don’t eliminate them from possibility of being thrown.

    I thought it a pretty swell idea, you should still be allowed to throw to the receiver w/o the icon, it just falls on the user to make up for the qb's deficiency in seeing the icon by the user having to remember who the iconless receivers are and which icon corresponds to which receiver
    There could be a tie in with AWR that effects the OL and how the QB perceives pressure. A QB with a low AWR could lower the OL collective AWR making blitz picks more difficult/less effective.
    There’s already a SS ability that allows pass rushers to threaten the QB while blocked. You could basically reverse that to make the young QB play like they are under pressure more than they are. Would also bring in the TUP rating more.
    A lot of the feedback from the beta was around the increased pass rush, specifically from a 4 man rush. I think increased pressure, making the TUP rating come into play more often would separate the weaker QBs from the stars.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
    Some of these ideas are too much. Reducing how many routes a QB can throw is a bad idea, because that forces a certain scheme in terms of progression, while not every team will look at the same play art and have the same progressions.
    A much better—and dare I say, more realistic—option, is to just have icons disappear shortly after the snap. Or if you want to simulate pre-snap confusion, make some of them invisible. But don’t eliminate them from possibility of being thrown.

    So the one thing I didn't like about this, and why I went the route I did in my suggestion, is that simply fading the icons away still puts the "awareness" ultimately into the player's hands instead of the QB. That was ultimately the goal: how do you differentiate the QB? I shouldn't be able to take a rookie QB and simply overcome his lack of awareness simply because I'm good at remembering which receivers have which icons (at least, I feel that way).
    And in Madden, I think that's where you expand on designating the primary receiver (which we can already do).
    Broncos86
    So the one thing I didn't like about this, and why I went the route I did in my suggestion, is that simply fading the icons away still puts the "awareness" ultimately into the player's hands instead of the QB. That was ultimately the goal: how do you differentiate the QB? I shouldn't be able to take a rookie QB and simply overcome his lack of awareness simply because I'm good at remembering which receivers have which icons (at least, I feel that way).
    And in Madden, I think that's where you expand on designating the primary receiver (which we can already do).

    At that point, however, you might as well play as a coach.
    ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
    At that point, however, you might as well play as a coach.

    It's a point of view, of course. I think it really just comes down to how you want to play the game, what control you have, etc. I don't necessarily think either is "wrong," just simply a POV on how you see the game being played.
    Of course, as pointed out in the article, the competitive / online crowd is going to see ANY change that takes function away from the gamer as extremely negative.
    I don't agree with the sentiment of "you might as well play as a coach" because I think that comment really downplays the interest in playing with players whose attributes impact gameplay more. I can also see counter arguments against it, such as "but as a ball carrier, I still choose where I'm going, so ball carrier vision doesn't matter then." So, again, I see the arguments.
    Broncos86
    It's a point of view, of course. I think it really just comes down to how you want to play the game, what control you have, etc. I don't necessarily think either is "wrong," just simply a POV on how you see the game being played.
    Of course, as pointed out in the article, the competitive / online crowd is going to see ANY change that takes function away from the gamer as extremely negative.
    I don't agree with the sentiment of "you might as well play as a coach" because I think that comment really downplays the interest in playing with players whose attributes impact gameplay more. I can also see counter arguments against it, such as "but as a ball carrier, I still choose where I'm going, so ball carrier vision doesn't matter then." So, again, I see the arguments.

    As such I think the better way to do it is to (a) give an accuracy penalty if you’re not facing the WR (and have a three part cone where you look left, straight or right, but invisible and shown by body angle), and (b) have an additional small animation time to get set before the release begins after the button is pressed. Yes, you can compensate by throwing earlier, but it’s still a penalty you have to deal with.
    EDIT—see my other post below. You can better simulate what inexperienced QBs actually do (hesitate, throw without anticipation, that is, they are “see it, throw it” QBs) without physically limiting where users can throw. All you have to do is hide the icons PRESNAP, and then post-snap have the icons be randomly distributed. So the user cannot count on X or Y being the middle WR, but instead will have to hesitate post-snap to see where the icons are, and “see it, throw it” post-snap just like most rookies.
    You may force a user to focus entirely on only one target doing this, because they won’t know what the button is pre-snap, and rookie QBs absolutely stare down one guy and often choose where there going pre-snap without reading a defense.
    CM Hooe
    No, you are misunderstanding what I am saying. The protection concepts and tools are indeed already in Madden 22; my point was the CPU doesn’t demonstrate knowledge of these mechanics to use them to set up more advanced protections.
    There’s a lot of authentic pass blocking behavior that is already in Madden. Big-on-big and nearest-threat principles are in the game. Jet protection is in the game. Scat protection is in the game. 5-0 protection is in the game. Running back 2-read behavior is in the game. Four-man slide protection is in the game. These are all NFL concepts and protections used every Sunday, and they are all represented in Madden. Tiburon could add more, absolutely, but until we get E-T stunts, read blitzes, and more advanced defensive mechanics adding more here is arguably unnecessary.
    Most of the time, Madden handles how to set the protection for the offense as best it can (because again, OL play is arcane to the average football fan), based on offensive formation, defensive front, and player ratings. For a user to manually set a specific protection, it is often required to use a combination of ID The Mike, slide protection, and formation shifts all in one play to set up that one protection correctly, but this is all very possible in the Madden 22 game you and I both have right now. The pass blocking animations aren’t great in M22 (especially the lack of depth of the tackles in five and seven step dropback passes), but the acts of picking targets and passing off rushers are on point.
    The note I was making about the CPU was specifically that they don’t do these manual actions. The CPU lives with whatever Mike the OL IDs, cannot call a pass blocking hot route for a back or a tight end, cannot call a slide protection (it relies solely on the OL doing that post-snap based on the Mike ID at formation set), and so on.
    As an aside - given that the Madden NFL team literally has a former NFL offensive lineman as one of its most senior members, not to mention access to coaching materials none of us are privy to, I am inclined to believe they have more institutional knowledge about how OL play should play out than us folks, none of us who ever played offensive line in the NFL.
    Additionally: though I wasn’t talking about run blocking, the run block schemes and targeting for Power-O, Counter, Trap, Toss, Crack Toss, Inside Zone, Outside Zone, and Split Zone all work great to fantastic. The run blocking in Madden 22 is easily better than any other football game that has ever existed, it’s honestly the only remarkable component of the game IMO.
    Again, you aren’t understanding what I am saying. Most people don’t know what Jet / Scat / Solid / 5-0 / Lucy / Rita / Lasso / etc. protection calls are. Most people don’t know the implications of ID’ing the Mike. Most people don’t understand how Power-O blocking changes based on the surface the defense presents. You are kidding yourself if you think the average NFL football fan understands offensive line play beyond “Von Miller has beat that tackle like a drum”.
    I understand where you are coming from now. My main gripe is more towards cpu functionality instead of user input. The controls are there for us, but the challenge of the cpu utilizing these same features to their advantage is basically non-existent.
    I love the invisible icons idea tied to awareness tho. Especially using it to limit QBs who can only read half the field etc. I always have a spectator franchise going, and this would definitely add life to that way of play also.
    Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
    When the QB hikes the ball, his primary receiver is lettered as it should be, his level of awareness would determine what next receiver button will become visible and how fast. They should also have randomness to what receiver will be assigned what button. With a Tom Brady, you'll know pretty much what button what receiver will have. With low awareness QB's it may switch up what button a receiver will be assigned. The more your awareness increases, the more it becomes consistent.
    This was a very well written article and I support every idea listed, especially the awareness threshold flag. That would definitely separate the elite from the bench warmers. It’d make it more challenging as well if your franchise qb goes down from injury.
    Broncos86
    It's a point of view, of course. I think it really just comes down to how you want to play the game, what control you have, etc. I don't necessarily think either is "wrong," just simply a POV on how you see the game being played.
    Of course, as pointed out in the article, the competitive / online crowd is going to see ANY change that takes function away from the gamer as extremely negative.
    I don't agree with the sentiment of "you might as well play as a coach" because I think that comment really downplays the interest in playing with players whose attributes impact gameplay more. I can also see counter arguments against it, such as "but as a ball carrier, I still choose where I'm going, so ball carrier vision doesn't matter then." So, again, I see the arguments.

    Here’s something that could accomplish a similar goal without limiting the player so much:
    (1) Hide the icons PRE-SNAP, not post-snap.
    (2) Randomly distribute the icons, so that post-snap the guy to your left is not automatically square or whatever, which will make the user have to “see it, throw it,” just like a rookie would.
    canes21

    Following the ratings reveals for the QBs in Madden 23, OS user canes21 started a thread...
    Written By: Chase Becotte
    Click here to view the article.

    Your thoughts on this?
    For low awareness QBs, (1) make the icons invisible presnap, (2) make them random post-snap. That way, you don’t know which WR is square or X or triangle or whatever until AFTER the ball is snapped.
    Benefits of this are that it forces low awareness QBs to be played in a “see it, throw it” way, just like inexperienced QBs do in real life. And it doesn’t come at the cost of actually limiting where a user can throw the ball.
    ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
    Your thoughts on this?
    For low awareness QBs, (1) make the icons invisible presnap, (2) make them random post-snap. That way, you don’t know which WR is square or X or triangle or whatever until AFTER the ball is snapped.
    Benefits of this are that it forces low awareness QBs to be played in a “see it, throw it” way, just like inexperienced QBs do in real life. And it doesn’t come at the cost of actually limiting where a user can throw the ball.

    This is something I recommended yesterday and I would be completely on-board with EA exploring this route. It would also be amazing if EA made available options that allowed us to fine tune how the ratings and the system worked together so we could get it where we wanted it to be.
    Combine this with other recommendations like the audible/hot route limitations and I think EA would be cooking with something here. QB's would definitely feel differentiated if this was done well.
    Another idea that I saw someone recommend recently was that along with having the icons hidden pre-snap, and random, they don't all appear instantly when you snap the ball with a lower awareness QB. I am absolutely IN LOVE with this idea.
    Think of how all of these ideas could combine to make the QB position feel different, which is something Madden has really struggled with doing ever.
    You have Tom Brady, at the line of scrimmage you have zero hot route limitations, zero hot route limitations, can see all WR icons pre-snap which means when you snap the ball you can see and throw to them all instantly.
    Now imagine playing as your rookie QB with mediocre awareness. You're at the line of scrimmage. You have minimal audibles and hot routing ability. You only see your primary read's icon pre-snap, when you snap it it takes a second before the second button appears, and it's random each time, then the 3rd eventually comes in, also random, and so on.
    That really is a nice way of showing that the guy is inexperienced and is struggling to get through his reads.
    Another idea that someone brought up in this thread that would also go quite well with all of these ideas is the button that at the line of scrimmage before the snap, you press it and your QB analyzes the defense and based off of ratings they will automatically choose who the primary read should be based off of the defensive alignment and what they believe they are seeing the play will be.
    And like that person recommended, it doesn't guarantee the route is open, and it may not even be the right read. The coverage may be a disguise, or the QB may have low awareness and his pre-snap reads may not be as good as someone like Brady, Rodgers, etc.
    If EA could combine all of these ideas, make them able to be toggled on and off, and make them adjustable, oh boy. Even if we couldn't adjust them, but they were in the game, and at least able to be toggled on or off, I'd be over the moon.
    I do wonder how much work it would require for them to get the system working properly. I think it may require EA to build progressions into each play which would be quite the undertaking. It would be okay if the icons appearing post snap were random, but it would be a weaker point to the systems, but if EA had them appearing accurately to what the progressions should be on the play based on the primary receiver, then the system is just that much better.
    You'd also have to tinker with the system to see how it works best. Maybe with the lower rated QB's you always see the primary WR's icon pre-snap and whatever the check down/safety valve is on the play. So most plays you'd see a WR icon pre-snap along with your RB route, or a route like a drag route if your RB was in blocking.
    It's not a secret that many rookies tend to struggle going through progressions, tend to force it to their first read, or fall into a pattern where they check it down constantly even when other things were available. These systems would actually reflect that perfectly for a video game, in my honest opinion.
    I would love to have a weaker OL, have a rookie QB in my franchise, and constantly struggle usering him because I never have the time for my progressions to be made leading to me either forcing the ball, checking down constantly, or taking sacks. I've never struggled with a rookie QB in that realistic fashion and these systems would actually make that possible.
    I beg anyone who has EA's ear, please have them look at these ideas, lol. I'm salivating at the thought of actually struggling with a young QB for once. It would really make building that position in franchise mode as important as it is in real life, something EA has never done.
    canes21
    This is something I recommended yesterday and I would be completely on-board with EA exploring this route. It would also be amazing if EA made available options that allowed us to fine tune how the ratings and the system worked together so we could get it where we wanted it to be.
    Combine this with other recommendations like the audible/hot route limitations and I think EA would be cooking with something here. QB's would definitely feel differentiated if this was done well.
    Another idea that I saw someone recommend recently was that along with having the icons hidden pre-snap, and random, they don't all appear instantly when you snap the ball with a lower awareness QB. I am absolutely IN LOVE with this idea.
    Think of how all of these ideas could combine to make the QB position feel different, which is something Madden has really struggled with doing ever.
    You have Tom Brady, at the line of scrimmage you have zero hot route limitations, zero hot route limitations, can see all WR icons pre-snap which means when you snap the ball you can see and throw to them all instantly.
    Now imagine playing as your rookie QB with mediocre awareness. You're at the line of scrimmage. You have minimal audibles and hot routing ability. You only see your primary read's icon pre-snap, when you snap it it takes a second before the second button appears, and it's random each time, then the 3rd eventually comes in, also random, and so on.
    That really is a nice way of showing that the guy is inexperienced and is struggling to get through his reads.
    Another idea that someone brought up in this thread that would also go quite well with all of these ideas is the button that at the line of scrimmage before the snap, you press it and your QB analyzes the defense and based off of ratings they will automatically choose who the primary read should be based off of the defensive alignment and what they believe they are seeing the play will be.
    And like that person recommended, it doesn't guarantee the route is open, and it may not even be the right read. The coverage may be a disguise, or the QB may have low awareness and his pre-snap reads may not be as good as someone like Brady, Rodgers, etc.
    If EA could combine all of these ideas, make them able to be toggled on and off, and make them adjustable, oh boy. Even if we couldn't adjust them, but they were in the game, and at least able to be toggled on or off, I'd be over the moon.
    I do wonder how much work it would require for them to get the system working properly. I think it may require EA to build progressions into each play which would be quite the undertaking. It would be okay if the icons appearing post snap were random, but it would be a weaker point to the systems, but if EA had them appearing accurately to what the progressions should be on the play based on the primary receiver, then the system is just that much better.
    You'd also have to tinker with the system to see how it works best. Maybe with the lower rated QB's you always see the primary WR's icon pre-snap and whatever the check down/safety valve is on the play. So most plays you'd see a WR icon pre-snap along with your RB route, or a route like a drag route if your RB was in blocking.
    It's not a secret that many rookies tend to struggle going through progressions, tend to force it to their first read, or fall into a pattern where they check it down constantly even when other things were available. These systems would actually reflect that perfectly for a video game, in my honest opinion.
    I would love to have a weaker OL, have a rookie QB in my franchise, and constantly struggle usering him because I never have the time for my progressions to be made leading to me either forcing the ball, checking down constantly, or taking sacks. I've never struggled with a rookie QB in that realistic fashion and these systems would actually make that possible.
    I beg anyone who has EA's ear, please have them look at these ideas, lol. I'm salivating at the thought of actually struggling with a young QB for once. It would really make building that position in franchise mode as important as it is in real life, something EA has never done.

    Of these, the easiest to implement is probably just making the passing icons invisible presnap random post-snap and delayed. Because they already have something like that for when momentum gets extremely against you.
    They could also do the mixed up play art presnap easily, since that is also already in the game.
    I don't know if randomizing the icons, post snap, is the way to go. I don't think that really replicates what an inexperienced qb goes through. He doesn't just accidently throw the ball to the other side of the field, because he's staring down his target. Maybe randomizing them presnap, or only showing 1 or 2 receivers presnap would work. That could help replicate them wanting to tuck the ball when their primary read is gone, and causes them to take more sacks/force the ball and just generally take more hits from the defense. I would hate to throw the ball 40 yards down field, just because your check down has their icon switched with your X receiver though.
    ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
    Here’s something that could accomplish a similar goal without limiting the player so much:
    (1) Hide the icons PRE-SNAP, not post-snap.
    (2) Randomly distribute the icons, so that post-snap the guy to your left is not automatically square or whatever, which will make the user have to “see it, throw it,” just like a rookie would.

    I really like both of those ideas and think they are more easily implemented then some of the others listed. I would definitely be all for this challenge
    I think there are some things there in the game now to differentiate QB's somewhat. I think ratings are always a start. Also, in Madden 23' there are now 17 different throwing motions that you can give QB's. You have the traits as far as how they handle pressure, whether they throw the ball away or take gambles, and whether they Scramble or stay in the Pocket.
    I think that these things affect the AI more than the User for obvious reasons; and if you're a gamer who likes to run Coach Mode/Spectator Mode then you have more leeway in how you edit/customize QB's. I think it's a little more difficult when it comes to User v. CPU because you have to strike a balance between the CPU being competitive while editing so that they play more realistic. If you edit too low, then the User has the advantage. If you edit so that the AI is more competitive then you may run into Robo QB.
    That's the main reason why I like running Coach Mode/Spectator Mode is because you basically allow the numbers and formulas dictate the outcome and you can edit and adjust to your hearts desire.
    Madden 23 has a HUGE differentiation from one QB to the next in regards to how they play, how well they play, how they throw, etc. After many hours with the beta I can tell you all that you'll be very happy with how different the QBs are. It's one of the best things I liked about it is the different feel going from one QB to another.
    ODogg
    Madden 23 has a HUGE differentiation from one QB to the next in regards to how they play, how well they play, how they throw, etc. After many hours with the beta I can tell you all that you'll be very happy with how different the QBs are. It's one of the best things I liked about it is the different feel going from one QB to another.

    To piggyback off of ODogg's post, if you want to see it for yourself...I would advise when you get the game play/watch a game with the Atlanta Falcons and Marcus Mariota and then watch one with the Packers or Chiefs with Rodgers and Mahomes. You'll definitely see a difference.
    ODogg
    Madden 23 has a HUGE differentiation from one QB to the next in regards to how they play, how well they play, how they throw, etc. After many hours with the beta I can tell you all that you'll be very happy with how different the QBs are. It's one of the best things I liked about it is the different feel going from one QB to another.

    It is true in the beta playing with and against different QB's did feel refreshing. Using Brady or Rodgers then going to Lamar Jackson was a noticeable difference, not just athletically, but also what passes I could and not complete when using the new skill based mechanic. Then going to Carson Wentz felt even more different from Lamar or the other two.
    The same can be said when playing against guys. Brady was near impossible to stop. Lamar was streaky passing, but a huge threat running. Hurts was all over the place, but had his legs to rely on at times. It was truly fun seeing QB's behave and perform that differently.
    That said, there's still plenty of room for improvement. EA still needs to really differentiate QB's mentally, especially when usering them. As it stands right now, if I have a 10 year veteran QB on my team with 90+ awareness, but a mediocre arm, and I just drafted a 1st round QB who has 60 awareness, but a big arm with some accuracy, there's zero reason for me to not use the rookie QB despite his low awareness since I am doing the mental part of being a QB.
    I think that we need options to change that and I feel there are truly some great ideas in this thread for how to represent those mental differences.
    I would love to play with that rookie in the preseason and see myself struggle using him because the passing icons don't all show up immediately representing his low awareness and struggle going through his progressions. It would actually make me have to think about who to start. Do I go with the QB I know can read a defense, but is limited in what he can throw? Or do I go with the kid who can make any throw, but I hardly ever even see what half my receivers icons are before pressure gets to me?
    That sounds like an amazing back and forth to have with myself. It would really make playing with a young QB a struggle which has never really been the case in an EA game which is completely opposite of real life.
    jyod21
    I don't know if randomizing the icons, post snap, is the way to go. I don't think that really replicates what an inexperienced qb goes through. He doesn't just accidently throw the ball to the other side of the field, because he's staring down his target. Maybe randomizing them presnap, or only showing 1 or 2 receivers presnap would work. That could help replicate them wanting to tuck the ball when their primary read is gone, and causes them to take more sacks/force the ball and just generally take more hits from the defense. I would hate to throw the ball 40 yards down field, just because your check down has their icon switched with your X receiver though.

    It replicates rookie what QBs go through because it forces the user to have to wait and look, and then think quickly, extending PROCESSING TIME. And that is what rookie QBs are bad at: processing.
    ODogg
    Madden 23 has a HUGE differentiation from one QB to the next in regards to how they play, how well they play, how they throw, etc. After many hours with the beta I can tell you all that you'll be very happy with how different the QBs are. It's one of the best things I liked about it is the different feel going from one QB to another.

    But how? When I played the beta, the only difference I found was accuracy. The idea being discussed right now (randomizing icons and hiding them presnap) actually simulates what rookies suck at, which is processing. It forces you to become a “see it, throw it” passer instead of a rhythm passer, which is where rookies actually struggle at the most.
    ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
    But how? When I played the beta, the only difference I found was accuracy. The idea being discussed right now (randomizing icons and hiding them presnap) actually simulates what rookies suck at, which is processing. It forces you to become a “see it, throw it” passer instead of a rhythm passer, which is where rookies actually struggle at the most.

    He isn't wrong that QB's felt differently in the beta. As you said, though, it was essentially their physical traits that were different. Their athleticism and their arm strength/accuracy all felt different. That's a great stride for Madden because even in the past that hasn't been the case. Before, as long as the user QB had average accuracy ratings, you were set at the position. You never need a true franchise caliber QB to be successful on offense because of how the passing game worked. That wasn't the case in the beta, thankfully.
    What this thread has basically evolved into is a topic now discussing how to differentiate the mental side of being a QB when they are being controller by a user. On that front, there was nothing in the beta to differentiate them, and outside of the Passing Cone, nothing in Madden's history has ever been done to differentiate the mental side of being a QB.
    I can see this being a polarizing topic for the Madden community because there is no way to really show the difference between a rookie and a veteran other than introducing gamey mechanics. At least with throw power and accuracy, you literally can have the players throw and miss in realistic manners without adding some mechanic to the game on top of what is already happening on the field.
    Unfortunately, since we as the users are the ones making all of the processing decisions for our QB's, you have to implement additional mechanics on top of the basic gameplay. That includes ideas like random icons, hiding icons temporarily to simulate progressions, etc.
    What so interesting about this discussion to me is that I have always felt that the best sim games are the ones where the physical abilities and parameters are reproduced accurately by the dev team with the User taking over the mental aspects of the player(s) they are controlling being the whole point. to me.
    Throw power has been too high, accuracy too good, pass rush too weak and pass coverage soft and simplistic IMO because if they are reproduced accurately most Users are going to throw 20+ picks a season even with a Brady or a Rodgers, let alone with a lesser QB, because most aren't even as good a rookie QB at making the right decisions.
    If I'm playing NBA 2K and I'm controlling Russell Westbrook, I don't want to be able to turn him into a 42% shooter from downtown, but I do want to be able to make him a better decision maker with me controlling him. I don't want all of the passing icons to be disabled so I have to jack up an ill-advised shot to simulate his real low bball IQ.
    In that same vein I want to be able to make Sam Darnold a better decision maker, with the ratings, traits, roster, and opponent being the obstacles making it harder on me.
    If the hand holding in all other aspects of the game was removed, then maybe icon manipulation wouldn't be necessary.
    jfsolo
    What so interesting about this discussion to me is that I have always felt that the best sim games are the ones where the physical abilities and parameters are reproduced accurately by the dev team with the User taking over the mental aspects of the player(s) they are controlling being the whole point. to me.
    Throw power has been too high, accuracy too good, pass rush too weak and pass coverage soft and simplistic IMO because if they are reproduced accurately most Users are going to throw 20+ picks a season even with a Brady or a Rodgers, let alone with a lesser QB, because most aren't even as good a rookie QB at making the right decisions.
    If I'm playing NBA 2K and I'm controlling Russell Westbrook, I don't want to be able to turn him into a 42% shooter from downtown, but I do want to be able to make him a better decision maker with me controlling him. I don't want all of the passing icons to be disabled so I have to jack up an ill-advised shot to simulate his real low bball IQ.
    In that same vein I want to be able to make Sam Darnold a better decision maker, with the ratings, traits, roster, and opponent being the obstacles making it harder on me.
    If the hand holding in all other aspects of the game was removed, then maybe icon manipulation wouldn't be necessary.

    I see where you're coming from and understand your point, but my personal approach to these games is simply different from yours. Where you want to take over Westbrook or Darnold and make them better decision makers, I play these games because I want to deal with a player's weaknesses and I want to build teams that have minimal weaknesses and will win because of it. I don't want to make Darnold a better decision maker because I am controlling him, I want to develop him and have him progress into a better decision maker, or I want to replace him with a better decision maker.
    That's just how I play sports games and it is why I feel mechanics like what are being described in the game are necessary options we should have. I want to be responsible for building the team, developing it, and calling the plays.
    I know many others enjoy taking players and making them play better than their real life counterparts. It can be fun to take an average player, make them produce, and turn them into a star. I see the allure of that and understand that's probably how the majority of players enjoy the game. However, that's simply not how I personally want to play the game.
    canes21
    I see where you're coming from and understand your point, but my personal approach to these games is simply different from yours. Where you want to take over Westbrook or Darnold and make them better decision makers, I play these games because I want to deal with a player's weaknesses and I want to build teams that have minimal weaknesses and will win because of it. I don't want to make Darnold a better decision maker because I am controlling him, I want to develop him and have him progress into a better decision maker, or I want to replace him with a better decision maker.
    That's just how I play sports games and it is why I feel mechanics like what are being described in the game are necessary options we should have. I want to be responsible for building the team, developing it, and calling the plays.
    I know many others enjoy taking players and making them play better than their real life counterparts. It can be fun to take an average player, make them produce, and turn them into a star. I see the allure of that and understand that's probably how the majority of players enjoy the game. However, that's simply not how I personally want to play the game.

    Well even with randomizing icons/hiding them presnap, you still can make Darnold a better decision maker. You just have to be really good. And I'm fine with that.
    What I'm not fine with is gimicky mechanics that make it impossible to throw to a certain WR. That makes no sense to me and it pushes user mode too close to coach mode for my tastes.
    ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
    Well even with randomizing icons/hiding them presnap, you still can make Darnold a better decision maker. You just have to be really good. And I'm fine with that.
    What I'm not fine with is gimicky mechanics that make it impossible to throw to a certain WR. That makes no sense to me and it pushes user mode too close to coach mode for my tastes.

    That's why I feel anything they do, if they do anything at all, needs options. Personally, I think simply randomizing the buttons each snap won't really do anything. I know I won't struggle with that system at all, so I'm not a fan of it, but I get why others would be more in favor for that system versus hiding receiver icons temporarily after the snap.
    I think both are equally gimmicky ideas, though. I don't think you can talk one down calling it a gimmick while defending the other when both are trying to create artificial confusion to make ratings matter more. You can say it makes no sense to have receiver icons hidden because it isn't like a QB won't realize who is on the field with him, and you're not necessarily wrong. In the same vein, randomizing icons is no less gimmicky because it isn't like a QB in real life presses the wrong button. If I go to throw the drag route, but hit the wrong icon and throw the streak across the other side of the field, that's not exactly representative of how QB's make the wrong decisions.
    canes21
    That's why I feel anything they do, if they do anything at all, needs options. Personally, I think simply randomizing the buttons each snap won't really do anything. I know I won't struggle with that system at all, so I'm not a fan of it, but I get why others would be more in favor for that system versus hiding receiver icons temporarily after the snap.
    I think both are equally gimmicky ideas, though. I don't think you can talk one down calling it a gimmick while defending the other when both are trying to create artificial confusion to make ratings matter more. You can say it makes no sense to have receiver icons hidden because it isn't like a QB won't realize who is on the field with him, and you're not necessarily wrong. In the same vein, randomizing icons is no less gimmicky because it isn't like a QB in real life presses the wrong button. If I go to throw the drag route, but hit the wrong icon and throw the streak across the other side of the field, that's not exactly representative of how QB's make the wrong decisions.

    Because one forces you to first look and then react, while the other makes it impossible for you to make an informed reaction until a certain amount of time has passed.
    What the randomizing icons does is make you have to double check and see before you throw: see it, throw it.
    Note: the point isn’t to force you into making a wrong decision. The point is to force you to have to make sure before you throw, and THAT is very much like what real rookie QBs do. It isn’t so much that they’re “making the wrong decision” all the time. It’s that they’re late in making the right decision, which is precisely why they usually make the wrong decision. And they’re late because they are unsure of what they see. They process slow.
    .
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    An alternative is to just hide all if them but one post-snap. Yeah, you can still keep track, but if you scramble around, you are now basically locking on to one guy or guessing.
    ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
    Because one forces you to first look and then react, while the other makes it impossible for you to make an informed reaction until a certain amount of time has passed.
    What the randomizing icons does is make you have to double check and see before you throw: see it, throw it.
    Note: the point isn’t to force you into making a wrong decision. The point is to force you to have to make sure before you throw, and THAT is very much like what real rookie QBs do. It isn’t so much that they’re “making the wrong decision” all the time. It’s that they’re late in making the right decision, which is precisely why they usually make the wrong decision. And they’re late because they are unsure of what they see. They process slow.
    .
    .
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    An alternative is to just hide all if them but one post-snap. Yeah, you can still keep track, but if you scramble around, you are now basically locking on to one guy or guessing.

    I understand what the theory behind the idea is, I just personally am not as big of a fan of it. Again, that's just my opinion. I know I personally wouldn't struggle with random icons as much as other may. They'd be on screen before the routes were even entering their breaks, so I don't foresee myself struggling with it, but quick memory mechanics like that aren't what I find difficulty anyways.
    I think it is challenging to really find a mechanic, or mechanics, that represent the mental side of the game and it is probably partially why EA hasn't really done anything for it. This thread is proof that even though we are a like minded community, we can't even agree on how to properly implement a mechanic that would make awareness matter more for user QB's.
    canes21
    I understand what the theory behind the idea is, I just personally am not as big of a fan of it. Again, that's just my opinion. I know I personally wouldn't struggle with random icons as much as other may. They'd be on screen before the routes were even entering their breaks, so I don't foresee myself struggling with it, but quick memory mechanics like that aren't what I find difficulty anyways.
    I think it is challenging to really find a mechanic, or mechanics, that represent the mental side of the game and it is probably partially why EA hasn't really done anything for it. This thread is proof that even though we are a like minded community, we can't even agree on how to properly implement a mechanic that would make awareness matter more for user QB's.

    Well it wouldn't be quick memory mechanics, if we're talking about hiding the icons pre-snap. You won't know which button throws where until after the snap. So it's more about quick reaction while still maintaining the ability to short circuit your own reflexes than memory.
    The way this will cause problems are when things don't go as planned, like the WR getting bumped while you're under pressure, and then you panic and throw to the button you instinctively think of, which makes you throw somewhere you didn't intend to.
    ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
    Well it wouldn't be quick memory mechanics, if we're talking about hiding the icons pre-snap. You won't know which button throws where until after the snap. So it's more about quick reaction while still maintaining the ability to short circuit your own reflexes than memory.
    The way this will cause problems are when things don't go as planned, like the WR getting bumped while you're under pressure, and then you panic and throw to the button you instinctively think of, which makes you throw somewhere you didn't intend to.
    No, I understand exactly how the mechanic you're talking about works. I'm simply not a fan of it because I know for me it won't be challenging nor do I personally think it's the best way to make a low awareness player feel different.
    Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
    canes21
    No, I understand exactly how the mechanic you're talking about works. I'm simply not a fan of it because I know for me it won't be challenging nor do I personally think it's the best way to make a low awareness player feel different.
    Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

    Well, what are your thoughts on in game when momentum is against you and you can’t see your route design? Is that a good representation of being pressured?
    Making it so you CAN’T throw a pass to someone just isn’t gonna fly. I can’t in a million years see that happening except on PC with mods. Not to mention, most Madden players are one-read anyway. If you give them only two wrs, they will only look at one, and just wait for a window to open.
    So what other ways can you do it?
    Obvious ones are no hot routes or audibles.
    Could have the icons only visible for a second at a time; one appears, then disappears when another appears and so on.
    What else is there?
    ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
    Well, what are your thoughts on in game when momentum is against you and you can’t see your route design? Is that a good representation of being pressured?
    Making it so you CAN’T throw a pass to someone just isn’t gonna fly. I can’t in a million years see that happening except on PC with mods. Not to mention, most Madden players are one-read anyway. If you give them only two wrs, they will only look at one, and just wait for a window to open.
    So what other ways can you do it?
    Obvious ones are no hot routes or audibles.
    Could have the icons only visible for a second at a time; one appears, then disappears when another appears and so on.
    What else is there?

    I don't find the routes disappearing to be inpactful at all because I know what play I called. It doesn't cause me to get confused, personally.
    With regards to your second paragraph, I've already admitted the idea is likely polarizing and most players wouldn't be fans of it. All I've said is I personally love the idea, but know many wouldn't like it at all. You also wouldn't be limited to only throwing to the icons that were visible, those would just be the only buttons you know where the ball is going when you press them.
    And you talking about how it would make many players just sit there and watch one receiver and wait for them to get open... good. It sounds like what a lot of younger QBs do. They wait and the pressure gets to them or they force a throw. It sounds like the mechanic would make those players play like a rookie with their rookie.
    What other ways can it be done? I'm not sure. That's literally the entire point of this thread is to see what ideas the community could come up with. There is no solution that will satisfy all. That's why I've said if EA actually does focus on this areea of the game the mechanic(s) must be able to be toggled.
    I agree hot route and audible limitations would be a good first step. I think those systems need overhauls as a whole, but I would like to see awareness tie into what you can and cannot do at the line of scrimmage.
    Your idea of the icons showing momentarily is an interesting one and I'd like to see how it played out. It's likely another polarizing idea, but I think anything you do to make awareness matter is going to be polarizing simply because of the different types of people that play Madden.
    There simply isn't a solution that will make everyone happy. Any idea will be seen as gimmicky by somebody, and they aren't entirely wrong. However, I honestly don't see how you can implement anything that makes awareness matter that isn't a bit gimmicky.
    It's like RPG games. In order for those games to make skills matter, they often make certain things impossible for your character to do, or make it so your character likely does them incorrectly even if the user knows the solution.
    For example, I as the player may stumble across a puzzle that is easy to solve, but my characters perception is so low level that they cannot complete the puzzle. You can argue that's gimmicky, but you have to do things like that to make skills matter.
    It's no different with ratings. Certain things in a video game must be done differently than real life, even if the goal is to be authentic, simply because there is no other way to show certain differences than having gamey mechanics.
    Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
    Broncos86
    Then simply make awareness determine how quickly the QB learns the entire playbook.

    Other than limiting what players can do being an idea that won’t make it, the other issue here is that learning the playbook is not the hard part for rookie QBs. For all the “Trey Lance isn’t ready” talk, he knew the whole offense in training camp of his rookie year.
    As I alluded to earlier—and the reason I’d prefer randomized and temporarily hidden icons, which causes hesitation by the user—the hardest things rookie QBs deal with are actually understanding defenses. And not just coverages. It’s understanding the speed, what “open” is in the NFL, and most importantly, vision and anticipation. These are the things rookies struggle with the most.
    It’s not about the playbook, except with lazy guys who will be busts. It’s about how to execute against specific defensive looks, how to recognize them, and how much of the field you can see and anticipate. Rookies tend to suck at these things, which is why they get sacked so much (think they see something, but the speed of the league closes the hole they thought they saw, so they hesitate), it’s why they throw pick sixes (because they are late to make the throw, for all the reasons listed), it’s why they are inaccurate (confusion about these things results in them getting antsy and forgetting their fundamentals), and so on.
    It would be awesome if the CPU had there own special abilities that makes them play exactly like their counterpart
    .for example
    QB plays exactly like Peyton Manning with the audibles if he sees a hole in your defense,like if one of your CB got hurt and he sees that so he will go deep picking on that lower rated CB or even calling bluff audibles to to keep you on your toes
    We wont get that until PlayStation 7 :)
    ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
    As I alluded to earlier—and the reason I’d prefer randomized and temporarily hidden icons, which causes hesitation by the user—the hardest things rookie QBs deal with are actually understanding defenses. And not just coverages. It’s understanding the speed, what “open” is in the NFL, and most importantly, vision and anticipation. These are the things rookies struggle with the most.

    I think what's missing in this discussion is that:
    A) these aren't going to happen, regardless
    B) There's an obvious and clear divide between some in what is wanted.
    The last 3 pages has essentially been "I like A" vs "I like B" and then restating the same thing over and over. for the sake of discussion, you're better off finding common ground at this point rather than continuing to try to ram what each likes at one another.
    EA isn't going to read this and say "man, that one guy is REALLY passionate about this, we better do it." It's why I basically just stopped. XD
    Broncos86
    I think what's missing in this discussion is that:
    A) these aren't going to happen, regardless
    B) There's an obvious and clear divide between some in what is wanted.
    The last 3 pages has essentially been "I like A" vs "I like B" and then restating the same thing over and over. for the sake of discussion, you're better off finding common ground at this point rather than continuing to try to ram what each likes at one another.
    EA isn't going to read this and say "man, that one guy is REALLY passionate about this, we better do it." It's why I basically just stopped. XD
    at the very least, it would be great if any one or more ideas were eventually incorporated but you could pick and choose which new things you could toggle on/off, but like you say, probably not best holding our breath.
    at it's very heart, thread really is another in a long line of wishlist threads
    Broncos86
    I think what's missing in this discussion is that:
    A) these aren't going to happen, regardless
    B) There's an obvious and clear divide between some in what is wanted.
    The last 3 pages has essentially been "I like A" vs "I like B" and then restating the same thing over and over. for the sake of discussion, you're better off finding common ground at this point rather than continuing to try to ram what each likes at one another.
    EA isn't going to read this and say "man, that one guy is REALLY passionate about this, we better do it." It's why I basically just stopped. XD

    True. But there may be a way to do some of this on PC with a mod, because hiding routes and buttons post-snap is already in the game. But of course sadly it would only be for PC. And making routes impossible to to throw to would probably be not doable since that isn’t in the game except tied to RPOs.
    ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
    True. But there may be a way to do some of this on PC with a mod, because hiding routes and buttons post-snap is already in the game. But of course sadly it would only be for PC. And making routes impossible to to throw to would probably be not doable since that isn’t in the game except tied to RPOs.

    I think you've misunderstood the idea with hidden icons that reveal over time. The routes wouldn't be impossible to throw, you'd just be taking a gamble if you pressed a button before all icons were revealed.
    Let's say you had 4 routes on a play and dropped back and instantly had the X receiver icon, then the next icon to show up was the A icon, then the next was the B icon. If you were paying attention and saw the last guy without an icon was open, you'd be able to guess what button to press to throw to him.
    It's still gimmicky, but any idea is basically going to be. Even randomizing the icons is gimmicky. I'll die on the hill in saying 99% of ideas that can be implemented to make awareness matter will be gimmicky.
    Unless EA implements a system where playbook knowledge works and the low awareness QB's don't see all the accurate routes for a play, any mechanic they add be it random icons, temporarily hidden icons, etc. will be a bit gimmicky, but sometimes that's okay if it is done well and represents an actual difference we see in real life.
    canes21
    I think you've misunderstood the idea with hidden icons that reveal over time. The routes wouldn't be impossible to throw, you'd just be taking a gamble if you pressed a button before all icons were revealed.
    Let's say you had 4 routes on a play and dropped back and instantly had the X receiver icon, then the next icon to show up was the A icon, then the next was the B icon. If you were paying attention and saw the last guy without an icon was open, you'd be able to guess what button to press to throw to him.
    It's still gimmicky, but any idea is basically going to be. Even randomizing the icons is gimmicky. I'll die on the hill in saying 99% of ideas that can be implemented to make awareness matter will be gimmicky.
    Unless EA implements a system where playbook knowledge works and the low awareness QB's don't see all the accurate routes for a play, any mechanic they add be it random icons, temporarily hidden icons, etc. will be a bit gimmicky, but sometimes that's okay if it is done well and represents an actual difference we see in real life.

    I thought you and Bronco had different ideas, his being some routes are simply off limits.
    The playbook thing could be implemented if you mean hide play art at the line, because that is already in the game.
    ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
    I thought you and Bronco had different ideas, his being some routes are simply off limits.
    The playbook thing could be implemented if you mean hide play art at the line, because that is already in the game.

    There's multiple ways EA can implement the playbook idea. They can have the actual playbook art in the playbook be wrong and be what your QB thinks the accurate play is. It could be the accurate play, but then when you're at the line pre-snap and hit the trigger to view the play, then it's different based on your QB awareness. They could even make it so other non-QB players with lower awareness may do the wrong thing, which is already somewhat present in the game when a low awareness skill position player runs the incorrect option route.
    There's multiple ways EA could go about it, and there are pros and cons to each direction. The unfortunate truth is EA likely will never take any idea from this thread and implement it into the game. I don't foresee them making awareness more impactful for user QB play and that sucks, but it's likely the harsh reality we live in.
    I'd love to think we could start a movement on social media like the #FixMaddenFranchise movement that #MadeAwarenessMatterForUserQBs, but that doesn't actually roll off the tongue, and I'm not sure the more casual gamers like the reddit crowd care as much about awareness ratings as they do franchise mode. Awareness is a bit more micro. Franchise mode is the most played mode and is more of a macro thing, so it's easier for the average Madden player to rally behind it needing changes.
    Start with accuracy meaning something. Short/Med/Deep accuracy doesn't seem to mean a thing.
    In '22 last gen, the CPU QBA slider played okay at 4; bad QBs were bad but many solid QBs were a little too poor. Short but accurate passers like Mac Jones were missing too many easy throws but that was better than Josh Rosen going 25/28 against me.
    Many of the other ideas in this thread are good. Tying various user features to awareness (audibles, number of routes a QB can throw to, etc.).
    I would be curious to see it fixed where QB accuracy and throwing power are their own things and only those two ratings / sliders. The whole short / medium / deep ratings would become how you split "awareness" ratings, and I think you could even split them more into short flats, deep middle, deep corner - maybe even further into Left Short, Left Mid, Left Deep, etc. etc.
    In real life, if I'm majority accurate as hard as I throw, then it's that way wherever I'm able to throw to, BUT what matters more in actual competition is if I'm not aware enough to throw to all areas of the field because I can't see them, can't process the defense and such. I'm trying to think in terms of real life equating to an algorithm, and that makes the most sense to me.
    To clarify: this could be what allows user or cpu QB to spot (icon shows up for user, basically) where to throw to, and more importantly might be what makes the cpu QBs really stand apart, as well as finally having the stars realistically hard to beat.
    TarHeelPhenom
    To piggyback off of ODogg's post, if you want to see it for yourself...I would advise when you get the game play/watch a game with the Atlanta Falcons and Marcus Mariota and then watch one with the Packers or Chiefs with Rodgers and Mahomes. You'll definitely see a difference.

    And $100 says it gets patched in to oblivion when the online competitive crowd starts complaining that everybody picks the same 4 teams in online play.
    Even though EA admitted that something like 80% of the games played were against the EA, they have been very quick to nerf things for the online crowd including last year when they made that assertion.
    I remember last year at release you had to be really careful throwing in to tight coverage because it was very easy to knock the ball loose when hitting a receiver trying to make a pass. The online crowd complained and it was nerfed to the point that even receivers in the high 60’s could catch anything that hit their hands regardless of the proximity of a defender. Granted I stopped playing the game last year in October because it had grown stale (I was still on PS4), but EA has a track record of caving to the e sports crowd
    The more that I think about this the more I think maybe the way to go about this is either new “negative” superstar abilities and or X factors.
    Hear me out. Right now we only really have abilities and X factors with positive gameplay effects. Maybe we need some with negative gameplay effects.
    For example: you could call one “seeing ghosts” in honor of Sam Darnold. It could be assigned to a QB such as darnold who traditionally makes very poor decisions when under constant pressure. It could be activated when you generate at least 4 QB pressures or hurries. The effect could be like a minus 4 medium and deep accuracy hit but not short accuracy. This would require you to adjust and start making line protection adjustments, and dinking and dunking your way out of the hole.
    You could also have one for QB’s who traditionally are only one read quarterbacks. You could call it “diversify your reads” or something to that effect. It could be activated when there is 3 or more deflections on any drive and could have the effect of an awareness hit for the quarterback, or an awareness increase for the defensive backs. You could get out of this by running the ball a certain amount of times on that drive, or maybe simplifying the offense by having to run a bit more shotgun spread plays to simplify the play calling for the QB.
    I know none of these ideas are perfect but I am just spitballing here
    Some good ideas. I like the idea of having negative factors for players, but I never see that happening. The players union fought to get slow development out of the game. There's no way they allow negative abilities get into the game lol.
    However, I think you could incorporate those things into the game without them needing to be abilities. I can imagine a few different ways to implement this into mechanics in the game that look at the QB's awareness and what's going on during the game and gives buffs or nerfs to the QB. It could be like the old impact player system from the NCAA games, but with positives and negatives, and it could also be similar to the new momentum bar we have in Madden where there are differing buffs depending on who has the momentum and how much.
    This is just me spitballing, but I could see if a QB had <80 awareness and their meter wasn't in their favor, the defense would be "reading" the QB's eyes and would have faster reaction times on passing motions. Now if a QB had a higher awareness, maybe they have different things that can happen to them negatively that aren't as strong, or they just become immune to certain mechanics depending on how high their awareness is.
    canes21
    Some good ideas. I like the idea of having negative factors for players, but I never see that happening. The players union fought to get slow development out of the game. There's no way they allow negative abilities get into the game lol.
    However, I think you could incorporate those things into the game without them needing to be abilities. I can imagine a few different ways to implement this into mechanics in the game that look at the QB's awareness and what's going on during the game and gives buffs or nerfs to the QB. It could be like the old impact player system from the NCAA games, but with positives and negatives, and it could also be similar to the new momentum bar we have in Madden where there are differing buffs depending on who has the momentum and how much.
    This is just me spitballing, but I could see if a QB had <80 awareness and their meter wasn't in their favor, the defense would be "reading" the QB's eyes and would have faster reaction times on passing motions. Now if a QB had a higher awareness, maybe they have different things that can happen to them negatively that aren't as strong, or they just become immune to certain mechanics depending on how high their awareness is.

    Your last paragraph is similar to what I was just about to post. I posted a while back that I think QB AWR should impact other players on both rosters more. Limited audibles/hot routes, hot routes changing incorrectly, starting road games with a momentum deficit, OL protections/possibly triggering more false starts (assuming penalties work) and having quicker DB reactions on a plays primary read(staring down receivers).
    Also having the player motivations, specifically wanting to play with franchise QB, matter more in roster building. Or creating scenarios where a star WR/TE refuses to resign due to the QBMaybe it’s hard to gameify a low AWR user controlled player. If team building becomes more difficult it will provide more motivation to acquire a higher rated QB.
    I also don’t mind having the WR icon randomized. Especially if they keep the pass rush where it was in the beta videos.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    canes21
    Some good ideas. I like the idea of having negative factors for players, but I never see that happening. The players union fought to get slow development out of the game. There's no way they allow negative abilities get into the game lol.
    However, I think you could incorporate those things into the game without them needing to be abilities. I can imagine a few different ways to implement this into mechanics in the game that look at the QB's awareness and what's going on during the game and gives buffs or nerfs to the QB. It could be like the old impact player system from the NCAA games, but with positives and negatives, and it could also be similar to the new momentum bar we have in Madden where there are differing buffs depending on who has the momentum and how much.
    This is just me spitballing, but I could see if a QB had <80 awareness and their meter wasn't in their favor, the defense would be "reading" the QB's eyes and would have faster reaction times on passing motions. Now if a QB had a higher awareness, maybe they have different things that can happen to them negatively that aren't as strong, or they just become immune to certain mechanics depending on how high their awareness is.

    That already happens. It’s called All Madden 😂
    https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/23059762/qb_grid_chart_JON586540_2021_REG_all_1636400847311.jpeg
    I felt that I could be way more detailed, so I took the time to really hash this idea out and just better explain where I’m coming from in the first place. As it currently stands, the ratings for QBs in Madden that really matter (for throwing the ball) come down to THP-throw power, AWR-awareness, SAC-short accuracy, MAC-middle accuracy, DAC-deep accuracy, PAC-play action, TUP-throw under pressure, RUN-throw on the run. That’s one Awareness rating, one Throwing Power rating and SIX different accuracy ratings. Again, I am not even talking about or getting into the ratings that would deal with scrambling. Just throwing ratings. Now, I don’t hate them. I just don’t know if they are absolutely crucial or noticeable like all of us want them to be except for when we make huge swings in the slider sets. I’m also not sure how they work to the current algorithm that Madden is coded for.
    So, what I’m curious to see, if it could actually work, is if they coded an algorithm that matches the actuality of what they say matters to them, now – being the next gen stats. If I’m looking at the same next gen stats, then at least TWELVE areas are highlighted and have some quite specific stats listed (hence the pic attached / linked).
    Still, though, I’m not saying to give each of these 12 areas an “accuracy” rating. I think they need to be “awareness” ratings. Let THP-throwing power and ACC-accuracy be their one and only ratings. Each of the 12 areas will get an AWR rating instead, and the hope would be that helps CPU quarterbacks play correctly, as well it will only allow User quarterbacks to see WR icons running routes in those areas (if said rating is high enough). Obviously, you want to make it to where it’s an option to turn on or off because of those who just don’t want the sim life.
    Dagan
    https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/23059762/qb_grid_chart_JON586540_2021_REG_all_1636400847311.jpeg
    I felt that I could be way more detailed, so I took the time to really hash this idea out and just better explain where I’m coming from in the first place. As it currently stands, the ratings for QBs in Madden that really matter (for throwing the ball) come down to THP-throw power, AWR-awareness, SAC-short accuracy, MAC-middle accuracy, DAC-deep accuracy, PAC-play action, TUP-throw under pressure, RUN-throw on the run. That’s one Awareness rating, one Throwing Power rating and SIX different accuracy ratings. Again, I am not even talking about or getting into the ratings that would deal with scrambling. Just throwing ratings. Now, I don’t hate them. I just don’t know if they are absolutely crucial or noticeable like all of us want them to be except for when we make huge swings in the slider sets. I’m also not sure how they work to the current algorithm that Madden is coded for.
    So, what I’m curious to see, if it could actually work, is if they coded an algorithm that matches the actuality of what they say matters to them, now – being the next gen stats. If I’m looking at the same next gen stats, then at least TWELVE areas are highlighted and have some quite specific stats listed (hence the pic attached / linked).
    Still, though, I’m not saying to give each of these 12 areas an “accuracy” rating. I think they need to be “awareness” ratings. Let THP-throwing power and ACC-accuracy be their one and only ratings. Each of the 12 areas will get an AWR rating instead, and the hope would be that helps CPU quarterbacks play correctly, as well it will only allow User quarterbacks to see WR icons running routes in those areas (if said rating is high enough). Obviously, you want to make it to where it’s an option to turn on or off because of those who just don’t want the sim life.

    Jimmy G is very accurate over the middle but can’t throw outside consistently to save his life.
    ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
    Jimmy G is very accurate over the middle but can’t throw outside consistently to save his life.

    Yeah, that's what the ratings should be based on, but already having six different accuracy ratings and not really making any difference in the game, that's more of the reason I'd want to see if the awareness ratings do make the difference. Surely, it would fix that 25 yard only bug, if said QB likes throwing deep - Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers and probably Tua, now, should all be going long pretty often. To finally touch on scrambling QBs, the theory should hold water if the QB isn't aware enough to many "sectors" of the field at all within (let's be nice and say 2.5 to 3 seconds - because Madden) he just decides to tuck-n-run. Further, if it worked out, specific QBs would do something else after that 2.5-3 seconds - Kirk Cousins would chuck the ball out of bounds, Tom Brady would absolutely check down to the RB in the flat, Carson Wentz would force something in the middle and throw an INT, haha, etc.
    Dagan
    Yeah, that's what the ratings should be based on, but already having six different accuracy ratings and not really making any difference in the game, that's more of the reason I'd want to see if the awareness ratings do make the difference. Surely, it would fix that 25 yard only bug, if said QB likes throwing deep - Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers and probably Tua, now, should all be going long pretty often. To finally touch on scrambling QBs, the theory should hold water if the QB isn't aware enough to many "sectors" of the field at all within (let's be nice and say 2.5 to 3 seconds - because Madden) he just decides to tuck-n-run. Further, if it worked out, specific QBs would do something else after that 2.5-3 seconds - Kirk Cousins would chuck the ball out of bounds, Tom Brady would absolutely check down to the RB in the flat, Carson Wentz would force something in the middle and throw an INT, haha, etc.

    I think they try to cover the tendencies via their player traits.
    As for inside and outside accuracy, they can solve that by measuring pass distance as the crow flies rather than parallel to the sideline. I actually don’t know how they do it, so disclaimer here, but my guess is they didn’t utilize Pythagoras in their short, medium and deep pass accuracy ratings.
    ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
    I think they try to cover the tendencies via their player traits.
    As for inside and outside accuracy, they can solve that by measuring pass distance as the crow flies rather than parallel to the sideline. I actually don’t know how they do it, so disclaimer here, but my guess is they didn’t utilize Pythagoras in their short, medium and deep pass accuracy ratings.

    They already have “inside” and “outside” the numbers set up on SS abilities. They could use the same formula on ratings.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    Momoney168
    They already have “inside” and “outside” the numbers set up on SS abilities. They could use the same formula on ratings.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    What do you mean? Abilities or ratings?
    Sent from the Sixth Circle of Hell using foul sorcery
    ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
    What do you mean? Abilities or ratings?
    Sent from the Sixth Circle of Hell using foul sorcery

    Abilities. They have the zone KOs which are Inside the numbers and Outside. Also WRs have in breaking/out breaking route abilities. But I’m saying that the formula they are using to determine that could be adapted for ratings fit QBs. Example would be an outside the numbers rating for QBs that would determines routes to the sidelines.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    Momoney168
    Abilities. They have the zone KOs which are Inside the numbers and Outside. Also WRs have in breaking/out breaking route abilities. But I’m saying that the formula they are using to determine that could be adapted for ratings fit QBs. Example would be an outside the numbers rating for QBs that would determines routes to the sidelines.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    Regardless of how it’s done, it would be a nice addition since as a 49er fan I have lived several years with watching a QB play elite in a 10 yard box between the numbers and look like pure garbage outside of them.
    Dagan
    https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/23059762/qb_grid_chart_JON586540_2021_REG_all_1636400847311.jpeg
    I felt that I could be way more detailed, so I took the time to really hash this idea out and just better explain where I’m coming from in the first place. As it currently stands, the ratings for QBs in Madden that really matter (for throwing the ball) come down to THP-throw power, AWR-awareness, SAC-short accuracy, MAC-middle accuracy, DAC-deep accuracy, PAC-play action, TUP-throw under pressure, RUN-throw on the run. That’s one Awareness rating, one Throwing Power rating and SIX different accuracy ratings. Again, I am not even talking about or getting into the ratings that would deal with scrambling. Just throwing ratings. Now, I don’t hate them. I just don’t know if they are absolutely crucial or noticeable like all of us want them to be except for when we make huge swings in the slider sets. I’m also not sure how they work to the current algorithm that Madden is coded for.
    So, what I’m curious to see, if it could actually work, is if they coded an algorithm that matches the actuality of what they say matters to them, now – being the next gen stats. If I’m looking at the same next gen stats, then at least TWELVE areas are highlighted and have some quite specific stats listed (hence the pic attached / linked).
    Still, though, I’m not saying to give each of these 12 areas an “accuracy” rating. I think they need to be “awareness” ratings. Let THP-throwing power and ACC-accuracy be their one and only ratings. Each of the 12 areas will get an AWR rating instead, and the hope would be that helps CPU quarterbacks play correctly, as well it will only allow User quarterbacks to see WR icons running routes in those areas (if said rating is high enough). Obviously, you want to make it to where it’s an option to turn on or off because of those who just don’t want the sim life.
    This image is basically what I was describing on page 2, thank you! But have it on coach screen with ratings adjustments and wr preferences/rr as modifiers.
    Sent from my H3113 using Tapatalk
    Command of a huddle. Every QB communication skills are perfect. It’s freaking impossible to change 5 routes individually while switching a formation.
    Hell sometimes a WR should not hear the audible. No prompt. I should look at the WR and know he heard the call with a gesture from the wr. That should be a chemistry rating. Making two positions unique
    But who am I kidding lol

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