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EA Sports UFC 3 Video - Updates on Combos, Strikes & Submission

EA Sports UFC 3

EA Sports UFC 3 Video - Updates on Combos, Strikes & Submission

Based off of feedback from the EA Sports UFC 3 beta, the team has made some adjustments to combos, strikes and submission. Check out what lead gameplay engineer Geoff Harrower (AKA GamePlayDevUFC) has to say about it and post your thoughts!

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  1. im sure that jab body kick combo was effetive when moving forward with the jab then body kick, but im sure its fixed anyway. Also i thought the beta tuning was fine for the submissions but we will see now.
    not too sure about the blocking of the strike of a slipping strike and being able to punish them, without them being able to block. We will see.
    Not 100% on the jab-body kick changes, I personally think just fixing the bug would have been enough, but it's definitely a move in the right direction and I'm really happy with all the other changes.
    I still like don't care for or understand the reasoning for sub changes from ufc 2. Big step backwards, especially with new big submission graphics.
    As Holloway would say it is what it is.
    Nugget7211
    Not 100% on the jab-body kick changes, I personally think just fixing the bug would have been enough, but it's definitely a move in the right direction and I'm really happy with all the other changes.

    The thing is, as someone rightly pointed out, the time to contact on the body kick was faster throwing the full 1-body kick combo than it was throwing just the body kick.
    That wasn't right.
    I’m Happy with these changes so far ,now Let’s delete the short jab from up close it looks horrible and makes no sense Or change it to an automatic variation of a short elbow.
    And please add referee stoppages like they should look a true finish the fight!
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    MalformedDC2009
    Please increase the range on straight body punches now.
    Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

    The range on straight body punches is the same as straight head punches.
    Awesome!!! Quick question, does the grayed out gates at the bottom correctly equal the number of gates in the sub? In the beta, it would show 4 or 5 even on 2 gate submissions.
    GameplayDevUFC
    The range on straight body punches is the same as straight head punches.
    I felt like I had to get real close to throw these for some reason. I saw one or two others mention this too. I guess I need to try those again.
    Edit: I think it's the speed that is slower, so it is making it harder to hit from range without getting super close. I think they should be sped up a bit.
    Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk
    I don't think the body kick speed needs to be slower because a single body kick was too slow in the beta. I'd prefer loved body kick's speed after throw a job. I could be wrong but I am worried this change make kick catch is going to be a bit OP like parry.
    Trillz
    not too sure about the blocking of the strike of a slipping strike and being able to punish them, without them being able to block. We will see.

    I think they're not unsafe on block. But if you whiff them, they are pretty easy to punish, now, whereas before, the window was very short.
    But they were made very bad on block, in the sense that you can barely block in time and that you cannot combo viably off of it. Having the combo being slowed down on block is probably the biggest part of the change. Basically, hig block will be a good "option select" against leaning strikes (if you don't whiff against the lean, of course). Like... when people come in leaning and striking you can simply high block and pressure back, now.
    Evil97
    Awesome!!! Quick question, does the grayed out gates at the bottom correctly equal the number of gates in the sub? In the beta, it would show 4 or 5 even on 2 gate submissions.

    That confused me, too.
    MalformedDC2009
    Please increase the range on straight body punches now.
    Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

    If anything needs to increase in range, it's elbow strikes. Sometimes you're right in front of the guy (in elbow range) and missing.
    I just want to know that these changes are going to apply to the final product or day-1 patch after released. because we have any chance for play the game early via EA early access or pre-order bonus before the release date.
    tissues250
    I just want to know that these changes are going to apply to the final product or day-1 patch after released. because we have any chance for play the game early via EA early access or pre-order bonus before the release date.

    Any day 1 patch work will apply to early access.
    GameplayDevUFC
    Any day 1 patch work will apply to early access.

    oh thanks. because I was going to subscribe for EA Access. I can't wait to test these changes.
    Trillz
    is the body kick by itself still the same speed or has it gone slower?

    This is my big concern because It was LW in the beta. It was too slow for me. I am worried that the other weights as WW, ML, LHW, HW. I think, it would more slower than LW. Its bad.
    tissues250
    This is my big concern because It was LW in the beta. It was too slow for me. I am worried that the other weights as WW, ML, LHW, HW. I think, it would more slower than LW. Its bad.

    Depended on who you used imo. Barbosa's body kick was plenty fast for me.
    aholbert32
    Depended on who you used imo. Barbosa's body kick was plenty fast for me.

    Yeah, it also matters how you were moving, forward and stationary body kicks felt fine for me, it's the backing up ones felt awkward/slow (which is fine), and I think Barboza's switch kick should be faster than it was too, but that might be broken as hell since I was already timing it under jabs towards the end of the beta.
    GameplayDevUFC
    Any day 1 patch work will apply to early access.

    Another great video, thanks for sharing GPD!
    Would you be able to tell us what the future videos will be showcasing? It would be amazing to see the tuned knockout ragdolls, for example :)
    Mr_Cool_Ice
    Another great video, thanks for sharing GPD!
    Would you be able to tell us what the future videos will be showcasing? It would be amazing to see the tuned knockout ragdolls, for example :)

    Saving the best for last.
    GameplayDevUFC
    Saving the best for last.

    Uh oh. AceBaldwin might get his Christmas wish.
    Or what I'm hoping for, that the force field blocking on the ground is gone.
    GameplayDevUFC
    The thing is, as someone rightly pointed out, the time to contact on the body kick was faster throwing the full 1-body kick combo than it was throwing just the body kick.
    That wasn't right.

    Then why make hooks thrown after slipping punishable, even though hooks thrown from neutral stance aren’t? Where is the consistency there?
    I mean slipping was already seriously punishable by leg kick, head kick and uppercut, if a player attempted to spam slipping strikes there where many tools 'decent' players could use to punish them. It was already very, very punishable. I literally dont understand why you made that change, Its pointless and game breaking.
    It appears as if I'll be in the minority here but that's ok, maybe someone can explain the thought process behind the change. Disallowing someone to recover correctly or block after missing a slip strike seems ill advised. I used it often to punish spammers preemptively, and it was countered well with uppercuts or head kicks if I became too predictable with my sway direction. Why put an emphasis on head movement in this years game, only to actively discourage using it? It's the main form of defense and now I feel like it carries too much risk of being punished. If I slip jab on entry and it's blocked, I'm suddenly unable to raise my hands to protect my face? And how is it being determined if a slip strike is on entry considering you're moving backwards or forwards constantly during a fight? It feels like were going back to that forced "parry window" from EA UFC 2 that I was celebrating this game for getting rid of.
    Lake the striker
    Then why make hooks thrown after slipping punishable, even though hooks thrown from neutral stance aren’t? Where is the consistency there?
    I mean slipping was already seriously punishable by leg kick, head kick and uppercut, if a player attempted to spam slipping strikes there where many tools 'decent' players could use to punish them. It was already very, very punishable. I literally dont understand why you made that change, Its pointless and game breaking.

    They are only punishable if you miss or they are blocked, which would never happen off a successful slip and counter.
    So this is only a nerf to slip strikes that aren't counter strikes.
    So it's a nerf to the unsuccessful spamming of them.
    They are by their very nature safer, faster and in some cases deal more damage. Makes sense that they would have a longer recovery on whiff to balance them out a bit.
    Coolade
    It appears as if I'll be in the minority here but that's ok, maybe someone can explain the thought process behind the change. Disallowing someone to recover correctly or block after missing a slip strike seems ill advised. I used it often to punish spammers preemptively, and it was countered well with uppercuts or head kicks if I became too predictable with my sway direction. Why put an emphasis on head movement in this years game, only to actively discourage using it? It's the main form of defense and now I feel like it carries too much risk of being punished. If I slip jab on entry and it's blocked, I'm suddenly unable to raise my hands to protect my face? And how is it being determined if a slip strike is on entry considering you're moving backwards or forwards constantly during a fight? It feels like were going back to that forced "parry window" from EA UFC 2 that I was celebrating this game for getting rid of.

    They only nerfed it offensively, if you're using it defensively it'll be the same. All that's changed (In my understanding at least) is that if someone throws a ducking uppercut for example as a lead rather than a counter and whiffs, they'll be punishable now rather than being able to block in the time it takes to throw a counter punch. I had it happen a few times in the beta where I'd throw a counter 2-3 to a whiffed duck uppercut and they'd block it at an absurd speed. All they did was make a lead that should be unsafe, unsafe.
    I'm in agreement here. If anything, I thought they would allow more responsive blocking after a slip, not the opposite.
    Edit: Maybe I'm confused as well. I'll wait for the fog to clear a bit.
    Nugget7211
    They only nerfed it offensively, if you're using it defensively it'll be the same. All that's changed (In my understanding at least) is that if someone throws a ducking uppercut for example as a lead rather than a counter and whiffs, they'll be punishable now rather than being able to block in the time it takes to throw a counter punch. I had it happen a few times in the beta where I'd throw a counter 2-3 to a whiffed duck uppercut and they'd block it at an absurd speed. All they did was make a lead that should be unsafe, unsafe.

    hmm ok. I would def need to play and feel the changes but that makes sense. I wonder if its only uppercuts and hooks? Sometimes I'd slip and jab on entry with no intention or care of countering or landing just to feel out their defensive habits or train them to expect something during my next entry. Feels like it'd limit some strategies but I won't know until I play.
    Coolade
    hmm ok. I would def need to play and feel the changes but that makes sense. I wonder if its only uppercuts and hooks? Sometimes I'd slip and jab on entry with no intention or care of countering or landing just to feel out their defensive habits or train them to expect something during my next entry. Feels like it'd limit some strategies but I won't know until I play.

    All that I think you'd need to change is just make sure to try to at least land on their block
    Nugget7211
    All that I think you'd need to change is just make sure to try to at least land on their block

    I'm notorious for leading with slipping strikes and I haven't felt this change at all. Now I don't think people I'm playing with are trying to punish with it, but the punish isn't a trivial thing to do.
    This just gives you tools to shut down this flavor of spam if it shows up, where no reliable option existed before.
    GameplayDevUFC
    I'm notorious for leading with slipping strikes and I haven't felt this change at all. Now I don't think people I'm playing with are trying to punish with it, but the punish isn't a trivial thing to do.
    This just gives you tools to shut down this flavor of spam if it shows up, where no reliable option existed before.

    Ok cool, I was just worried because leading with slipping strikes is basically how I planned to use Dominick Cruz. Him evading counter strikes on his exit with advanced lunges regardless if he lands or not is his fighting technique. Curious to see how this works in practice.
    Coolade
    Ok cool, I was just worried because leading with slipping strikes is basically how I planned to use Dominick Cruz. Him evading counter strikes on his exit with advanced lunges regardless if he lands or not is his fighting technique. Curious to see how this works in practice.

    I'd note that Cruz almost never leads, and hasn't looked great when he has (Garbrandt fight, spots in the Dillashaw fight)
    Nugget7211
    I'd note that Cruz almost never leads, and hasn't looked great when he has (Garbrandt fight, spots in the Dillashaw fight)

    The dudes feet are probably gone.
    Nugget7211
    I'd note that Cruz almost never leads, and hasn't looked great when he has (Garbrandt fight, spots in the Dillashaw fight)

    Sometimes he does lead with a slip, just in the garbrandt fight he got exposed by garbrandts speed. But the fights before that he was leading then pulling away straight away for a counter shot.
    Sometimes he feinted feinted lead, he mixes it up but his footwork was the main factor and slipping was the main things for scoring.
    tissues250
    I love reduced combo speed but Is there any plan about punish more stamina tax for the combo spamming?

    the combo spamming should be more easier to counter now, i think taxing more stamina on combos will make this game a one strike exchange fighting game.
    GameplayDevUFC
    The thing is, as someone rightly pointed out, the time to contact on the body kick was faster throwing the full 1-body kick combo than it was throwing just the body kick.
    That wasn't right.

    Not sure why you wouldnt just increase the Body Kick speed to match its combo speed.
    The lone body kick speed was slow and unrealistic. Questionable changes.
    Stolm
    Not sure why you wouldnt just increase the Body Kick speed to match its combo speed.
    The lone body kick speed was slow and unrealistic. Questionable changes.

    The speed of the kicks is key bin keeping their damage high without being OP. You need to be able to reasonably intercept them with a forward moving straight.
    Sent from my Pixel using Operation Sports mobile app
    I havn't read the entire thread but did GPD go in further detail as to if the leaning to the side/back has also been nerf'd like the ducking? I honestly thought the ducking was the only one needing a fix, so I'd really like to know.
    Acebaldwin
    I havn't read the entire thread but did GPD go in further detail as to if the leaning to the side/back has also been nerf'd like the ducking? I honestly thought the ducking was the only one needing a fix, so I'd really like to know.

    If I may butt in... sides, too, I think.
    GameplayDevUFC
    They are only punishable if you miss or they are blocked, which would never happen off a successful slip and counter.
    So this is only a nerf to slip strikes that aren't counter strikes.
    So it's a nerf to the unsuccessful spamming of them.
    They are by their very nature safer, faster and in some cases deal more damage. Makes sense that they would have a longer recovery on whiff to balance them out a bit.

    Are they actually unsafe on block?
    GameplayDevUFC
    The thing is, as someone rightly pointed out, the time to contact on the body kick was faster throwing the full 1-body kick combo than it was throwing just the body kick.
    That wasn't right.

    Doesn't the second strike in most combos come out quicker than throwing the single strike alone? Or do you mean the jab+kick was faster than the kick alone?
    I feel like the jab motion feeds into the kick motion which makes the faster speed feel smooth. I think fixing the problem of the kick not being blockable may have been enough, but I may be biased because I've always liked that combo.
    Great changes as usual. I feel like you're getting the key things on the consensus list. Of course we're going to have people who relied on spamming the jab-body kick upset because they'll actually have to learn how to play now.
    Body kicks can be fast in real life, but they have to be slow enough to intercept when you're using hand-eye coordination yet, fast enough to be viable. They struck the perfect balance here. Also, to people saying the jab leads to a body kick being faster by chambering the kick, just try that combo right now in your living room. There is a reason most people throw the 1-2 kick. The right straight gives you momentum for the kick. It's actually kind of awkward to throw 1-body kicks in real life.
    Thanks for the vid GPD.
    Looks good.
    Loved the unmentioned but seemingly increased range on the elbows, Fergs Combo at 1:50 starts with a lead elbow, you couldn't have landed that from that range in the beta, nice work!
    After the batting feint, the guard or bodywork can not make it in time and you will receive the striking of the opponent, so I want you to fix it so that it can be done.
    GameplayDevUFC
    They are only punishable if you miss or they are blocked, which would never happen off a successful slip and counter.
    So this is only a nerf to slip strikes that aren't counter strikes.
    So it's a nerf to the unsuccessful spamming of them.

    The problem is that you want leaning/slipping strikes relegated to counter striking, even though you shouldn’t.
    Leading leaning/weaving strikes are utilised often in boxing/MMA for various reasons not just countering and not all the time can strikers be punished successfully for doing so, so in terms of realism the change doesn’t make sense. And as I explain bellow, balance wise it makes no sense either.
    They are by their very nature safer, faster and in some cases deal more damage. Makes sense that they would have a longer recovery on whiff to balance them out a bit.
    How when in order to throw slipping/leaning strikes you must slip or lean, which are two executions that are already extremely punishable? Do you not see my point here?
    Edit: I got it wrong initially, there is no justification for the additional properties of leaning/weaving strikes.
    I suppose that there might be a confusion with the terms being utilized here. It got me, too, btw.
    The leaning strikes are not punishable on block, not in the strict sense of term. They are not unsafe on block. You can lean, strike, have it blocked, then block the opponent's counter. The big change is that if your leaning strike is blocked, comboing off of it will be slow. So, if you try to throw a second punch, for instance, it will likely be intercepted if the opponent retaliates immediately with a cross.
    The actual unsafety happens if you whiff. In a way, anything is unsafe on whiff, if you consider that the opponnet may start his strike before the end of your execution. Having said that, the unsafety of the leaning punches (on whiff) was increased quite a bit - though most likely not to a point of making it look weird.
    So if I've got this right:
    Slipping strikes aren't punishable on block, but will leave the attacker at a big frame disadvantage, so much so they can't combo without being interrupted by an opponents strike.
    If that's the case then it's not as bad as I first thought but I agree that the punish for this strategy should be potentially leaning into a hook and getting badly hurt. This feels a bit artificial for my liking but we'll see I guess.
    Lake the striker
    Then why make hooks thrown after slipping punishable, even though hooks thrown from neutral stance aren’t? Where is the consistency there?
    I mean slipping was already seriously punishable by leg kick, head kick and uppercut, if a player attempted to spam slipping strikes there where many tools 'decent' players could use to punish them. It was already very, very punishable. I literally dont understand why you made that change, Its pointless and game breaking.

    Duck/upper while holding block in someone's face was OP and stupid. You can't kick a guy who is in your face doing that. I did it to tons of people. It was also the easiest way to beat the AI on Legendary. The top players I played were spamming sways and striking in your face too.
    The change is a welcome one from my experience.
    At the end of the day... We've all still got a lot of learning to do but I'm sure if anything is unbalanced they'll get to it.
    One thing that makes me nervous about this game is that if people want to force the fight with you it's pretty easy to do so. It's hard to keep a good player at kicking range. It feels like you almost have no choice but to box as kicks come out very slow backing up (as they should) and the lunges aren't as efficient as they were in UFC 2. I'm sure people will argue against this and say it's that I'm bad but if you play the right people who know what they're doing... It's very, very hard to keep the fight at kicking range.
    We'll see though.
    Body kicks are WAY too slow in EA UFC 3. I'd have already knocked the guy out in real life if someone kicked that slow. Just make them the same speed as combo body kicks. I think the main problem here is the high/low blocking system. It makes it much harder to reactively block strikes. In future EA UFC games, it's absolutely essential that you guys replace it with a more realistic and fluid blocking system.
    Serengeti95
    Duck/upper while holding block in someone's face was OP and stupid. You can't kick a guy who is in your face doing that. I did it to tons of people. It was also the easiest way to beat the AI on Legendary. The top players I played were spamming sways and striking in your face too.
    The change is a welcome one from my experience.
    At the end of the day... We've all still got a lot of learning to do but I'm sure if anything is unbalanced they'll get to it.
    One thing that makes me nervous about this game is that if people want to force the fight with you it's pretty easy to do so. It's hard to keep a good player at kicking range. It feels like you almost have no choice but to box as kicks come out very slow backing up (as they should) and the lunges aren't as efficient as they were in UFC 2. I'm sure people will argue against this and say it's that I'm bad but if you play the right people who know what they're doing... It's very, very hard to keep the fight at kicking range.
    We'll see though.

    I agree. And can we please remove the "too short" character limit?!
    Not_Entertained
    Body kicks are WAY too slow in EA UFC 3. I'd have already knocked the guy out in real life if someone kicked that slow. Just make them the same speed as combo body kicks. I think the main problem here is the high/low blocking system. It makes it much harder to reactively block strikes. In future EA UFC games, it's absolutely essential that you guys replace it with a more realistic and fluid blocking system.

    I agreed. A single body kick was too much slow in the beta. It felt pretty bad. I'd prefer much loved combo's one speed. I am worried that the body kick catch is going to be OP like another parry.
    Not_Entertained
    Body kicks are WAY too slow in EA UFC 3. I'd have already knocked the guy out in real life if someone kicked that slow. Just make them the same speed as combo body kicks. I think the main problem here is the high/low blocking system. It makes it much harder to reactively block strikes. In future EA UFC games, it's absolutely essential that you guys replace it with a more realistic and fluid blocking system.

    I found the body kicks to be fine(note, not good, great or perfect) in the beta, although I almost never threw single kicks, because that's bad and you should feel bad for doing it, so maybe they feel awkward, idk, but I'm curious what you mean about a more fluid/realistic block, do you want a return to the fuzzy full body block of UFC 1 or an entirely new system?
    Nugget7211
    I found the body kicks to be fine(note, not good, great or perfect) in the beta, although I almost never threw single kicks, because that's bad and you should feel bad for doing it, so maybe they feel awkward, idk, but I'm curious what you mean about a more fluid/realistic block, do you want a return to the fuzzy full body block of UFC 1 or an entirely new system?

    Entirely new system.
    Nugget7211
    although I almost never threw single kicks, because that's bad and you should feel bad for doing it, so maybe they feel awkward

    Why would throwing a kick with no strikes beforehand be a bad thing? It's common.

    Here's Pettis throwing body kicks to help out with the discussion on whether they're too slow in game or not. They probably are a little slow from my reading. You don't want everybody kicking as fast as Pettis here though.
    Serengeti95
    Why would throwing a kick with no strikes beforehand be a bad thing? It's common.

    Here's Pettis throwing body kicks to help out with the discussion on whether they're too slow in game or not. They probably are a little slow from my reading.

    It just comes from how I was taught. Single kicks are higher risk for the same reward as a set up kick, so why on earth would I ever throw a single kick? (As a lead, counter kicks are a thing that you should do)
    I do think that single kicks are a touch slow, but I think it's necessary for them to have impact in a video game. Like, Barboza speed kicks in a game where 1 head kick can put you out would be really, really broken, especially if there was any latency online, so it's basically a realism hit I'm willing to take for playability reasons.
    Nugget7211
    It just comes from how I was taught. Single kicks are higher risk for the same reward as a set up kick, so why on earth would I ever throw a single kick? (As a lead, counter kicks are a thing that you should do)
    I do think that single kicks are a touch slow, but I think it's necessary for them to have impact in a video game. Like, Barboza speed kicks in a game where 1 head kick can put you out would be really, really broken, especially if there was any latency online, so it's basically a realism hit I'm willing to take for playability reasons.

    I guess so but when you get to a certain level you can start breaking some of those rules. Like Conor spamming straight lefts with no set up. I re-watched the Denis Siver fight today and he wasn't really setting anything up. Nearly all single strikes but a wide variety. He was just clearly so much better. His roundhouse kick to the head in that fight was money. Was crazy to be reminded of how much Conor used to kick and how many crazy kicks he used to throw. It felt weird with him having so many kicks on the beta but he really did used to throw them.
    I agree that lighting kickers having lightning kicks probably isn't a good idea. With that said, I think a slight boost would be cool
    Also, random cool video of Pettis dislocating his shoulder and then kicking this guys head off a few seconds later...
    Serengeti95
    I guess so but when you get to a certain level you can start breaking some of those rules. Like Conor spamming straight lefts with no set up. I re-watched the Denis Siver fight today and he wasn't really setting anything up. Nearly all single strikes but a wide variety. He was just clearly so much better. His roundhouse kick to the head in that fight was money. Was crazy to be reminded of how much Conor used to kick and how many crazy kicks he used to throw. It felt weird with him having so many kicks on the beta but he really did used to throw them.
    I agree that lighting kickers having lightning kicks probably isn't a good idea. With that said, I think a slight boost would be cool
    Also, random cool video of Pettis dislocating his shoulder and then kicking this guys head off a few seconds later...

    Yeah, I think a slight boost would be fine, and would probably make it feel significantly better.
    And man, it really sucks that Pettis stopped developing as a fighter, he used to be so good but I think the last time I can remember seeing marked improvement was the Cowboy fight in 2013 (which is when he unveiled effective hands, if I'm remembering correctly) but since the RDA fight he's been trying to paper over the gaping holes in his game without really fixing them, kinda like JDS since the second Cain fight (although at least he had the Rothwell fight where he looked incredible)
    Nugget7211
    It just comes from how I was taught. Single kicks are higher risk for the same reward as a set up kick, so why on earth would I ever throw a single kick? (As a lead, counter kicks are a thing that you should do)
    I do think that single kicks are a touch slow, but I think it's necessary for them to have impact in a video game. Like, Barboza speed kicks in a game where 1 head kick can put you out would be really, really broken, especially if there was any latency online, so it's basically a realism hit I'm willing to take for playability reasons.

    Muay Thai fighters use single kicks all the time. Watch someone like Yodsanklai and Samkor or in fact pretty much any Thai boxer and you'll see.
    Not_Entertained
    Muay Thai fighters use single kicks all the time. Watch someone like Yodsanklai and Samkor or in fact pretty much any Thai boxer and you'll see.

    Not to overly generalise, but most pure Muay Thai fighters have bad hands and the counters to single kicks are stepping in with a straight(or whatever punch combination you prefer) or a takedown (which obviously doesn't exist in Muay Thai in the same way it does in MMA.)
    I was making a semi-joking overly simplistic statement, which I should've been clearer about and that's on me, but it's almost always better to set up your round kicks and I like that the game encourages it but still allows effective single kicks (switch kicks to the body or teeps, for example)
    MalformedDC2009
    Yeah, I'm waiting for a video where they say they are adding 360 degree, reactive head movement and trimming a few frames off of all strikes to increase responsiveness.

    You will be waiting a while for this one.
    Nugget7211
    It just comes from how I was taught. Single kicks are higher risk for the same reward as a set up kick, so why on earth would I ever throw a single kick? (As a lead, counter kicks are a thing that you should do)
    I do think that single kicks are a touch slow, but I think it's necessary for them to have impact in a video game. Like, Barboza speed kicks in a game where 1 head kick can put you out would be really, really broken, especially if there was any latency online, so it's basically a realism hit I'm willing to take for playability reasons.

    You are describing very basic set ups though. Like ending a combo with a kick. But obviously there are other set ups. If I box your face off and see a high guard for defense cause of it, I do't need to combo into a kick. I can just rip one to the body knowing hands up has become the reactionary defense.
    Recent TJ vs Cody fight is another great example of more complicated set ups that lead to successful individual kicks. TJ was trying to set things up too much in round 1, his corner told him that, and in round 2 they told him just let **** rip.
    So yeah morale of the story is comboing into a kick is just a basic and fundamental way your taught to use them at a beginner level, but of course there are other ways. And of course the game should have one off kicks be faster than kicking in combo
    LittleEvil

    So yeah morale of the story is comboing into a kick is just a basic and fundamental way your taught to use them at a beginner level, but of course there are other ways. And of course the game should have one off kicks be faster than kicking in combo

    Why should one off kicks be faster? It's way easier to kick if you use either a step or another strike to pre-load your hips (which most people need to do to throw hard kicks.) I'd have no problem with people like Barboza or Pettis having a perk that made them kick faster out of stance, but I don't understand why people think kicks in combination should be slower.
    Obviously, if you mean that just low kick should be faster than 2-3 low kick, sure, but the low kicks themselves should be at least the same speed, if not faster in combination.
    Submission questions.
    - Do all Flying Submissions that had one or two gates get bumped up to five or four?
    - Did the back Clinch RNC Submission Gate # also get increased?
    - Do Submissions with less gates only apply to finish the fight now? (Imo that approach what makes sense if it is that way because it's the closest thing to having a submission bonus of a rocked opponent as it was in UFC Undisputed when submitting a rocked opponent.)
    I'm liking these changes showing the community the hard work you developers are doing to show you guys actually listen to the community. Thank you EA Devs!
    Nugget7211
    Not to overly generalise, but most pure Muay Thai fighters have bad hands and the counters to single kicks are stepping in with a straight(or whatever punch combination you prefer) or a takedown (which obviously doesn't exist in Muay Thai in the same way it does in MMA.)
    I was making a semi-joking overly simplistic statement, which I should've been clearer about and that's on me, but it's almost always better to set up your round kicks and I like that the game encourages it but still allows effective single kicks (switch kicks to the body or teeps, for example)

    Many have tried "stepping in with a straight" and they still couldn't do anything about it. If you have someone that's a very good kicker, they can easily neutralise your boxing with their kicks.
    Not_Entertained
    Many have tried "stepping in with a straight" and they still couldn't do anything about it. If you have someone that's a very good kicker, they can easily neutralise your boxing with their kicks.

    I don't think this is true. I think boxing is going to be the go-to on this game for the high level players...
    But what I will say is the balance of boxing and kicking is much better on this game than UFC 2. Boxing was bad on UFC 2.
    Serengeti95
    I don't think this is true. I think boxing is going to be the go-to on this game for the high level players...
    But what I will say is the balance of boxing and kicking is much better on this game than UFC 2. Boxing was bad on UFC 2.

    I agree with this, mostly because lead high kicks aren't as quick as jabs any more haha
    Malaach
    Submission questions.
    - Do all Flying Submissions that had one or two gates get bumped up to five or four?
    - Did the back Clinch RNC Submission Gate # also get increased?
    - Do Submissions with less gates only apply to finish the fight now? (Imo that approach what makes sense if it is that way because it's the closest thing to having a submission bonus of a rocked opponent as it was in UFC Undisputed when submitting a rocked opponent.)
    I'm liking these changes showing the community the hard work you developers are doing to show you guys actually listen to the community. Thank you EA Devs!

    No. Some of the submissions, specially the clinching ones, don't have animations for all 5 stages. So, they sorta must remain with few stages. It was great that they could change the Imanari roll to 4 gates.
    Solid_Altair
    No. Some of the submissions, specially the clinching ones, don't have animations for all 5 stages. So, they sorta must remain with few stages. It was great that they could change the Imanari roll to 4 gates.

    Thank you Solid_Altair, that would make sense about why some subs only have a few gates.
    Am I understanding correctly about finish the fight submissions having less gates though? That's what it seemed like to me. Which would mean Finish the fight submissions have their own personal animation stages right?
    Malaach
    Thank you Solid_Altair, that would make sense about why some subs only have a few gates.
    Am I understanding correctly about finish the fight submissions having less gates though? That's what it seemed like to me. Which would mean Finish the fight submissions have their own personal animation stages right?

    You're welcome. I think all FTF subs are one stage only. Does this answer you question?
    Serengeti95
    I don't think this is true. I think boxing is going to be the go-to on this game for the high level players...
    But what I will say is the balance of boxing and kicking is much better on this game than UFC 2. Boxing was bad on UFC 2.

    Oh sorry, I meant in real life!
    Not_Entertained
    Oh sorry, I meant in real life!

    Even then, I'm not sure what your point was. Like yeah, there's work arounds for traditional counters, which is why the jab didn't vanish from boxing when people figured out the cross-counter.
    Nugget7211
    Even then, I'm not sure what your point was. Like yeah, there's work arounds for traditional counters, which is why the jab didn't vanish from boxing when people figured out the cross-counter.

    I mean you said that to beat pure Thai fighters that use single kicks you just punch them or go for a takedown. It's not as easy as you think against skilled kickers.
    Not_Entertained
    I mean you said that to beat pure Thai fighters that use single kicks you just punch them or go for a takedown. It's not as easy as you think against skilled kickers.

    I never said it easy, same way if you asked me how to beat McGregor, I'd say kick his legs, try to weather the early storm and eventually get him to the mat. Doesn't make that in anyway easy to do.
    It's effectively the same problem you get with being overly simplistic with anything, like, if you asked me how to beat any given 2d Mario game and I said "Go right and jump", that's accurate, but not really very helpful, but to be honest, wasn't really trying to get into a super deep kickboxing technique conversation on a forum for a video game hahaha :)
    Nugget7211
    I never said it easy, same way if you asked me how to beat McGregor, I'd say kick his legs, try to weather the early storm and eventually get him to the mat. Doesn't make that in anyway easy to do.
    It's effectively the same problem you get with being overly simplistic with anything, like, if you asked me how to beat any given 2d Mario game and I said "Go right and jump", that's accurate, but not really very helpful, but to be honest, wasn't really trying to get into a super deep kickboxing technique conversation on a forum for a video game hahaha :)

    Haha, completely agree!
    what a bs change to slip strikes. This in my opinion is borderline game breaking. An artificial nerf that is completely unrealistic to help low skilled complainers and close the skill gap. The slips were ALREADY highly punishable. If you take your time, figure out your opponent's pattern and use baits it was very rewarding. All great stand up fighters throw punches with their head off center because it is actually more SAFE at times and gives surprising angles. This change will make this game completely straight up robot boxing. As a long time high level player in fight night (top 5 leaderboards) and a bit lesser extent UFC i highly advise you guys reconsider and at least bring in some high level players to test the sway block punish and bait a sway block punish. Please don't ship a game less realistic than the beta.
    BQ32
    what a bs change to slip strikes. This in my opinion is borderline game breaking. An artificial nerf that is completely unrealistic to help low skilled complainers and close the skill gap. The slips were ALREADY highly punishable. If you take your time, figure out your opponent's pattern and use baits it was very rewarding. All great stand up fighters throw punches with their head off center because it is actually more SAFE at times and gives surprising angles. This change will make this game completely straight up robot boxing. As a long time high level player in fight night (top 5 leaderboards) and a bit lesser extent UFC i highly advise you guys reconsider and at least bring in some high level players to test the sway block punish and bait a sway block punish. Please don't ship a game less realistic than the beta.

    I'm having the same fears and apprehensions but at this point all we can do is wait to try it ourselves and see if it's noticeable. I don't like the change either. Why am I being punished for striking with my head off center because they are holding R2. Coming into range low or to the side should be a usable tactic and it was already punishable..
    Agreed. Stopping you from blocking after a slip makes literally zero sense.
    IRL, You are supposed to use head movement to get into the pocket........
    Ever watch a guy like Ross Pearson fight? He shows both sides of this argument perfectly.
    The man has some of the BEST boxing centric headmovement in the UFC. Insanely slick headmovement, and this is how Pearson, with his short height and reach, gets into the pocket to land his strikes.
    Pearson has also been KOd by swaying his head into knees, and kicks. Which is the NATURAL counter to boxing centric headmovement.
    There is no need to add extra, artificial nerfs to headmovement. The counter to headmovement is punishing the slip or sway with it's intercepting angled strike..
    I'm really really confused why this nerf was implemented.
    Haz____
    Agreed. Stopping you from blocking after a slip makes literally zero sense.
    IRL, You are supposed to use head movement to get into the pocket........
    Ever watch a guy like Ross Pearson fight? He shows both sides of this argument perfectly.
    The man has some of the BEST boxing centric headmovement in the UFC. Insanely slick headmovement, and this is how Pearson, with his short height and reach, gets into the pocket to land his strikes.
    Pearson has also been KOd by swaying his head into knees, and kicks. Which is the NATURAL counter to boxing centric headmovement.
    There is no need to add extra, artificial nerfs to headmovement. The counter to headmovement is punishing the slip or sway with it's intercepting angled strike..
    I'm really really confused why this nerf was implemented.

    My understanding on the nerf is this, say you lean off to the left while closing into the pocket, you're leaning to the left, not ducking, so knees won't land, you also too close to throw a head kick, it would just hit the body and you'd armour through it, but your uppercut/hook or whatever falls short, so I try to throw a counter 2-3 as you move in. I can't, because your whiffed strike has fast enough recovery to block any strike I might throw back at you to capitalise on your mistake, making entering in with leaning uppercuts or hooks from certain distances completely safe, which they shouldn't be. If you're landing strikes, either clean or on block, you should be fine, but you shouldn't be safe after whiffing your strikes, whether you're moving your head or not.
    Nugget7211
    My understanding on the nerf is this, say you lean off to the left while closing into the pocket, you're leaning to the left, not ducking, so knees won't land, you also too close to throw a head kick, it would just hit the body and you'd armour through it, but your uppercut/hook or whatever falls short, so I try to throw a counter 2-3 as you move in. I can't, because your whiffed strike has fast enough recovery to block any strike I might throw back at you to capitalise on your mistake, making entering in with leaning uppercuts or hooks from certain distances completely safe, which they shouldn't be. If you're landing strikes, either clean or on block, you should be fine, but you shouldn't be safe after whiffing your strikes, whether you're moving your head or not.

    Sounds like the artificial fake buff to the body when ducking is the issue then.
    If im leaning to the right, you should be able to crush me with a hook, or kick to the head, or body.
    Nugget7211
    My understanding on the nerf is this, say you lean off to the left while closing into the pocket, you're leaning to the left, not ducking, so knees won't land, you also too close to throw a head kick, it would just hit the body and you'd armour through it, but your uppercut/hook or whatever falls short, so I try to throw a counter 2-3 as you move in. I can't, because your whiffed strike has fast enough recovery to block any strike I might throw back at you to capitalise on your mistake, making entering in with leaning uppercuts or hooks from certain distances completely safe, which they shouldn't be. If you're landing strikes, either clean or on block, you should be fine, but you shouldn't be safe after whiffing your strikes, whether you're moving your head or not.

    And keep in mind that from a range whiff, he can actually keep comboing, making him still pretty hard to intercept. Naturally, by doing this, he'll be vulnerable to your turtle dance, and can have his follow up shot also whiff or hit your block... both bad for his stamina. Seriously... this stuff is waaaay more dangerous than it seems... these whiffs and blocked strikes vs turtle dancing. Your stamina goes to hell in a heartbeat.
    But/therefore... if the guy fears blowing his stamina against your turtle dance, he'll likely throw single strikes in these situations. And in such cases, he won't be able to block very quickly after whiffing, which makes the range whiff punishes finally viable. This does NOT mean that he has a cooldown put in his block, after his recovery. It just means that he needs to get close to his full recovery, becfore he can block. He can still block before his full recovery.
    Aaaand he cans till slip very quickly, just as quickly as in the case of throwing a normal punch.
    The terminology of this stuff is pretty complicated and somewhat new to the sim sub-genre. It's understandable that the change is seeming to be way bigger than it is, for some guys.
    Haz____
    Sounds like the artificial fake buff to the body when ducking is the issue then.
    If im leaning to the right, you should be able to crush me with a hook, or kick to the head, or body.

    Honestly, I don't know if you train or anything, but ducking does help with body shots, as does leaning into them. Obviously, risky as ****, but it tightens the muscles and absorbs a little bit of the impact. To be clear, not the same as blocking or just not getting hit, but it's better than nothing. It hurts more to get hit in the opposite side though, so if I'm leaning right and get hit on the left side, that'll be worse than if I was just in a neutral stance, and I'm not sure if that component is represented.
    Nugget7211
    Honestly, I don't know if you train or anything, but ducking does help with body shots, as does leaning into them. Obviously, risky as ****, but it tightens the muscles and absorbs a little bit of the impact. To be clear, not the same as blocking or just not getting hit, but it's better than nothing. It hurts more to get hit in the opposite side though, so if I'm leaning right and get hit on the left side, that'll be worse than if I was just in a neutral stance, and I'm not sure if that component is represented.

    I have spent about a year and a half working out in my local Boxing Club.
    I have never in my life seen someone purposefully duck into a body shot.
    Tighting up your abs, and bracing for impact, is not the same as straight up ducking into a shot.
    Haz____
    I have spent about a year and a half working out in my local Boxing Club.
    I have never in my life seen someone purposefully duck into a body shot.
    Tighting up your abs, and bracing for impact, is not the same as straight up ducking into a shot.

    Fair enough, done about three years of Muay Thai with a little boxing, I'd lean into ****, but ducking is terrifying (and I agree it should be nerfed) but I think this nerf to slipping strikes is fine on a mechanical level for the time being, since I'd assume adding recovery frames is far, far easier than messing with their entire head movement system.
    Just in case it didn't sound intuitive...
    Dancing is used in arcade lingo as pre-emptive footwork to bait whiffs. So, moving from side to side and varying diagonals back and forth, then advancing and then going straight back. Stuff like this.
    Turtle means the guy is blocking while doing this. This is usually not allowed in arcade games. And it makes a big difference.
    I had to create a new term. And I'm terrible with titles. Don't judge me. :crazy:
    Loved the turtle dance video, btw! Having it as a short clip in the middle of actual UFC 3 videos could be gold.
    Solid_Altair
    Just in case it didn't sound intuitive...
    Dancing is used in arcade lingo as pre-emptive footwork to bait whiffs. So, moving from side to side and varying diagonals back and forth, then advancing and then going straight back. Stuff like this.
    Turtle means the guy is blocking while doing this. This is usually not allowed in arcade games. And it makes a big difference.
    I had to create a new term. And I'm terrible with titles. Don't judge me. :crazy:
    Loved the turtle dance video, btw! Having it as a short clip in the middle of actual UFC 3 videos could be gold.

    I've almost used traditional fighting game lingo for inputs so many times, but the numbers would confuse the **** out of people on here I imagine, like 1-2-low 10 would be 1-2-4 in regular fighting game terms. (9 and 10 are lead and rear roundkicks respectively in my coachs system btw)
    Solid_Altair

    Dancing is used in arcade lingo as pre-emptive footwork to bait whiffs. So, moving from side to side and varying diagonals back and forth, then advancing and then going straight back. Stuff like this.

    I always thought the practice of tiny steps to manipulate distance was called "Footsies" in Fighting Game terms.
    Is it just me or should Barboza keep the old 1-Body Kick speed.
    I'm like.. half joking, but I was just watching some gym clips and SWEET JESUS THAT GUY KICKS SO DAMN FAST.. Augh.. If anyone's seen the one where he just throws endless lead body kicks as if his leg was a cyborg baseball being swung by six burly lumberjacks on crank.. Got.. Dayum.
    I'm assuming his Jab-Body Kick will be quicker than say, Nates..
    AeroZeppelin27
    Is it just me or should Barboza keep the old 1-Body Kick speed.
    I'm like.. half joking, but I was just watching some gym clips and SWEET JESUS THAT GUY KICKS SO DAMN FAST.. Augh.. If anyone's seen the one where he just throws endless lead body kicks as if his leg was a cyborg baseball being swung by six burly lumberjacks on crank.. Got.. Dayum.
    I'm assuming his Jab-Body Kick will be quicker than say, Nates..

    Yes! And Pettis should be able to throw them fast as well like he used on benson in there second fight
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    Solid_Altair
    I suspect other body kicks combos will remain as fast as they were in the beta. So, Barboza and Pettis should be fine, specially Barboza (more MT combos).

    Yeah, I didn't even think about it like that, sweeeet.
    Solid_Altair
    I suspect other body kicks combos will remain as fast as they were in the beta. So, Barboza and Pettis should be fine, specially Barboza (more MT combos).

    Semi related Barboza question, he only had a level 4 switch kick (and no ways to combo into it to speed it up), if Barboza doesn't have a level 5 switch kick, who the hell does? It's like if you gave GSP a level 4 jab, or Aldo a level 4 low kick, if that's a 4, what the hell is a 5?
    I think footsies means the little low kicks, but I'm not sure.[/QUOTE
    Haz is right. “Footies” refers to movements to manipulate distance.
    Like when two fighters are using pokes or trying to bait whiffs
    Cool. I had no idea.
    I wonder if the 3D arcade games tends to call it differently, or if I just happened upon a weird sample (that calls it "dancing").
    Though, strictly speaking, if footsies includes the use of pokes, then it is a different and wider concept.
    Nugget7211
    Semi related Barboza question, he only had a level 4 switch kick (and no ways to combo into it to speed it up), if Barboza doesn't have a level 5 switch kick, who the hell does? It's like if you gave GSP a level 4 jab, or Aldo a level 4 low kick, if that's a 4, what the hell is a 5?

    Good questions. I don't know. My best guess is that whoever picked the moves wanted to make a point that Barboza's leg kick was even better than his switch kick.
    Solid_Altair

    Good questions. I don't know. My best guess is that whoever picked the moves wanted to make a point that Barboza's leg kick was even better than his switch kick.

    So, would that be to influence AI strategy or something, because then I'd honestly be okay with it, because it's not like level 4 is bad, it's just weird for the guy with the best switch kick in MMA not to have a level 5 one. I actually got reasonably good at using his switch kick as a pull counter towards the end of the beta, so it doesn't need buffed or anything like.
    I don't know if the AI takes move levels into account. And I don't know if that was the motivation. I'd guess it wasn't.
    I also find it weird taht his switch kick is 4. I'd rather give him a 5 at it and then perhaps give him lower level moves somewhere else, if balancing was needed.
    And my suggestion for using his switch kick is if you want to use a naked advancing body kick (without throwing a straight after it). In Barboza's case, it'd be worth it, because his switch kick has a higher level than his lead kick. But in a general sense, maybe the switch kick deserves a little buff.
    Solid_Altair
    I don't know if the AI takes move levels into account. And I don't know if that was the motivation. I'd guess it wasn't.
    I also find it weird taht his switch kick is 4. I'd rather give him a 5 at it and then perhaps give him lower level moves somewhere else, if balancing was needed.
    And my suggestion for using his switch kick is if you want to use a naked advancing body kick (without throwing a straight after it). In Barboza's case, it'd be worth it, because his switch kick has a higher level than his lead kick. But in a general sense, maybe the switch kick deserves a little buff.

    That's how I was using it, as a counter to whiffs or as a pretty quick advancing kick, but I honestly think it lacks any real reason to be used, I just like throwing switch kicks IRL, so I used it haha.
    I think the stationary one needs to be pretty significantly quicker, or have more stopping power, or just actual power, because as it is now, a 2-3-kick combination is quicker to land, has pretty similar range, is a better mixup and will do substantially more damage. It's not a bad strike by any means, it's just never the best strike in any situation, like, even the spinning side kick (which is what I think he had) has push back, so it serves a purpose, the switch kick is just cool. Even as a quick, advancing single kick, it doesn't have enough stopping power, it's extraordinarily risky, if someone just wings back an overhand you'll get dropped even if you hit them mid-strike.
    I'll admit to a little bias, since it's one of my favourite kicks IRL, but at least my other go to, which is 2-3-kick combinations, is awesome in 3.
    Nugget7211
    That's how I was using it, as a counter to whiffs or as a pretty quick advancing kick, but I honestly think it lacks any real reason to be used, I just like throwing switch kicks IRL, so I used it haha.
    I think the stationary one needs to be pretty significantly quicker, or have more stopping power, or just actual power, because as it is now, a 2-3-kick combination is quicker to land, has pretty similar range, is a better mixup and will do substantially more damage. It's not a bad strike by any means, it's just never the best strike in any situation, like, even the spinning side kick (which is what I think he had) has push back, so it serves a purpose, the switch kick is just cool. Even as a quick, advancing single kick, it doesn't have enough stopping power, it's extraordinarily risky, if someone just wings back an overhand you'll get dropped even if you hit them mid-strike.
    I'll admit to a little bias, since it's one of my favourite kicks IRL, but at least my other go to, which is 2-3-kick combinations, is awesome in 3.

    Switch kicks absolutely have utility in real life. If you aren’t using it as a set up, the switch can both act as a type of feint to put the opponent on edge to be hit by the kick and it also adds power to the lead leg. If you’re in orthodox and want to hit the liver without switching to southpaw, switch kick.
    If using as a setup, you can switch step and kick to leg, body, or head. If you use drop shifts like Cruz or TJ, your switch step chambers the shift punch and the shift kick. A combo they favor is using the drop shift punch as a setup for the head kick. Get them expecting the punch and throw the switch head kick instead. It works on Cro Cops left straight or left high kick principle.
    That’s just a few examples.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports
    RetractedMonkey
    Switch kicks absolutely have utility in real life. If you aren’t using it as a set up, the switch can both act as a type of feint to put the opponent on edge to be hit by the kick and it also adds power to the lead leg. If you’re in orthodox and want to hit the liver without switching to southpaw, switch kick.
    If using as a setup, you can switch step and kick to leg, body, or head. If you use drop shifts like Cruz or TJ, your switch step chambers the shift punch and the shift kick. A combo they favor is using the drop shift punch as a setup for the head kick. Get them expecting the punch and throw the switch head kick instead. It works on Cro Cops left straight or left high kick principle.
    That’s just a few examples.
    Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

    Should've been clearer, I know they have utility IRL, I meant that they don't in game.
    Nugget7211
    That's how I was using it, as a counter to whiffs or as a pretty quick advancing kick, but I honestly think it lacks any real reason to be used, I just like throwing switch kicks IRL, so I used it haha.
    I think the stationary one needs to be pretty significantly quicker, or have more stopping power, or just actual power, because as it is now, a 2-3-kick combination is quicker to land, has pretty similar range, is a better mixup and will do substantially more damage. It's not a bad strike by any means, it's just never the best strike in any situation, like, even the spinning side kick (which is what I think he had) has push back, so it serves a purpose, the switch kick is just cool. Even as a quick, advancing single kick, it doesn't have enough stopping power, it's extraordinarily risky, if someone just wings back an overhand you'll get dropped even if you hit them mid-strike.
    I'll admit to a little bias, since it's one of my favourite kicks IRL, but at least my other go to, which is 2-3-kick combinations, is awesome in 3.

    I'd suggest a slight damage buff. It actually already has plenty of stopping power.
    Dave_S
    Doesn't Edson mostly throw switch body kick in real life over standard lead leg body kick?

    Yes. And the swicth one has a higher level.
    Solid_Altair

    Good questions. I don't know. My best guess is that whoever picked the moves wanted to make a point that Barboza's leg kick was even better than his switch kick.

    But his inside leg kick was level 1 for some crazy reason? (I'm straight up assuming that is a mistake)
    I had trouble setting up that switch kick too, couldn't find any combos with it, but the few tines I landed off a whiff it messed people up, it didn't feel as quick as Barbozas switch kick though. His is lightening in reality. I liked the animation however.
    Barbozas spin kicks were utterly on point. They felt risky as Hell, but when they landed, daaaaaaayum.
    Wow! Really?! That must have escaped my attention, too, when I was looking at his moves. His lead leg kick shuld be very good, too. He used them a lot against Pettis.
    BTW, good combos for it are:
    lead leg kick - rear leg kick
    2-lead leg kick
    1-2-lead leg kick
    3-2-lead leg kick
    But whenever you can finish the combo with the rear leg kick, it's better, because it deals more damage. So... 1-rear leg kick, 3-rear leg kick, 4-3-rear leg kick...
    Solid_Altair
    Wow! Really?! That must have escaped my attention, too, when I was looking at his moves. His lead leg kick shuld be very good, too. He used them a lot against Pettis.
    BTW, good combos for it are:
    lead leg kick - rear leg kick
    2-lead leg kick
    1-2-lead leg kick
    3-2-lead leg kick
    But whenever you can finish the combo with the rear leg kick, it's better, because it deals more damage. So... 1-rear leg kick, 3-rear leg kick, 4-3-rear leg kick...

    I think he meant switch kick combos, which I don't think Barboza had any of (the only one I saw in the combo list was lead leg teep-switch kick, but Barboza doesn't have a lead leg teep), and I personally don't think Barboza should have any kicks below a level 3, because he's one of, if not the, best kickers in the sport.
    Solid_Altair
    And keep in mind that from a range whiff, he can actually keep comboing, making him still pretty hard to intercept. Naturally, by doing this, he'll be vulnerable to your turtle dance, and can have his follow up shot also whiff or hit your block... both bad for his stamina. Seriously... this stuff is waaaay more dangerous than it seems... these whiffs and blocked strikes vs turtle dancing. Your stamina goes to hell in a heartbeat.
    But/therefore... if the guy fears blowing his stamina against your turtle dance, he'll likely throw single strikes in these situations. And in such cases, he won't be able to block very quickly after whiffing, which makes the range whiff punishes finally viable. This does NOT mean that he has a cooldown put in his block, after his recovery. It just means that he needs to get close to his full recovery, becfore he can block. He can still block before his full recovery.
    Aaaand he cans till slip very quickly, just as quickly as in the case of throwing a normal punch.
    The terminology of this stuff is pretty complicated and somewhat new to the sim sub-genre. It's understandable that the change is seeming to be way bigger than it is, for some guys.

    Based on your argument, they should add the same punish potential to all neutral strikes if they whiff too, after all, you can have your neutral hooks, straights, jabs, uppercuts e.t.c whiff/ or blocked and still block oncoming strikes, correct?
    You can also make it hard for your opponent to intercept you by comboing your whiffed neutral strikes, right? Then why should a hook thrown during leaning or weaving have different properties than if its thrown during a neutral position? In terms of balance and realism it makes absolutely no sense for them to be different in that regards, so why are they?
    If anything, I mean if the game developers actually knew how to balance properly, the change they should have made to leaning/weaving strikes is to reduce their execution/active/recovery frames and damage output so they match those of standard strikes, or strikes thrown from neutral position. Right now the leaning hook, as GDP said, is faster and stronger than the neutral strikes which makes no sense at all in terms of balance or realism.
    He acknowledges this with the jab-body kick combo VS the standard body kick, by rightfully saying the kick following a jab shouldn’t be faster than a neutral kick, but for some reason allows this discrepancy to occur between leaning strikes and neutral strikes, then proceeds to further imbalance the defensive meta by excessively reducing the recovery frames for leaning/weaving strikes, christ!!! :34:
    The incompetence is so stupidly frustrating and disappointing I might not get the game, what's the point if game breaking changes will be made, in the form of 'patches', whilst the game changers and developers cant see them as such.
    I think the idea is that if you lean left you could throw a right hook faster since your momentum is going in that direction.
    The problem is that it should only apply during movement. Right now you can sit on a left lean and throw a fast right hook. That’s terrible lol
    Lake the striker
    Based on your argument, they should add the same punish potential to all neutral strikes if they whiff too, after all, you can have your neutral hooks, straights, jabs, uppercuts e.t.c whiff/ or blocked and still block oncoming strikes, correct?
    You can also make it hard for your opponent to intercept you by comboing your whiffed neutral strikes, right? Then why should a hook thrown during leaning or weaving have different properties than if its thrown during a neutral position? In terms of balance and realism it makes absolutely no sense for them to be different in that regards, so why are they?
    If anything, I mean if the game developers actually knew how to balance properly, the change they should have made to leaning/weaving strikes is to reduce their execution/active/recovery frames and damage output so they match those of standard strikes, or strikes thrown from neutral position. Right now the leaning hook, as GDP said, is faster and stronger than the neutral strikes which makes no sense at all in terms of balance or realism.
    He acknowledges this with the jab-body kick combo VS the standard body kick, by rightfully saying the kick following a jab shouldn’t be faster than a neutral kick, but for some reason allows this discrepancy to occur between leaning strikes and neutral strikes, then proceeds to further imbalance the defensive meta by excessively reducing the recovery frames for leaning/weaving strikes, christ!!! :34:
    The incompetence is so stupidly frustrating and disappointing I might not get the game, what's the point if game breaking changes will be made, in the form of 'patches', whilst the game changers and developers cant see them as such.

    Hold your horses. You're getting a few things wrong.
    As you've noted, the leaning punches aren't suppose to be treated just like the normal ones, because the leaning version has some benefits. The main benefit is the evasion. It allows you to win engagements even from frame disadvantage and offers usually a high pay off in damage. And punching after the lean is fast, which is different from punching be faster even hough added to the lean. Leaning and punching is still slowr than just punching. But if you lean, the punch after it is faster than usual. It will also deal more damage.
    Why not nerf them by just making them like regular punches, then? Because:
    1- The lean acts as the wind up, so it makes sense for the punch to be faster (maybe not so much for ducking hooks, but certainly for the other punches).
    2- The lean provides a spring, the wind-up, more torque, so it makes sense for the punch to be stronger.
    3- It is very important that the punch is fast, to make sure that you get the opportunity to intercept the opponent's follow up shot, even if you're using a slow fighter. In FNC, that wasn't the case - could keep comboing you quickly and often hit you as you were throwing the slip counter, but since the game severely lacked stopping power, you'd go through his shot to land your own, which had stopping power because it was a slip counter. The whole thing was far from clean.
    And as to the jab-body kick thingy, it was changed because the whole combo was faster than the single strike. The issue wasn't that a body kick was faster after a jab. That's usually how combos work. The problem was that it was faster with the jab, including the jab's execution. That's why it had to change. This is very different from what happens to the leans and the other combos. Therefore, there is no inconsistency here.
    Is there anyway we could get this 1 back?
    The step in jab off the lead lean?
    Lean Jab:

    The lead lean is the most common generally, because it's the most defensive. Your back and shoulder act as a shield for income strikes. It's common for fighters to use this position to feel out the opponent, act as a feint, or bait, and often as a safe place to launch a step in jab from.
    For some reason the step in jab lean jab has been removed from UFC 3.
    It was awesome for things like slipping a strike and hopping in, cracking with the 1-2.
    kinda like this-
    Solid_Altair
    Wow! Really?! That must have escaped my attention, too, when I was looking at his moves. His lead leg kick shuld be very good, too. He used them a lot against Pettis.
    BTW, good combos for it are:
    lead leg kick - rear leg kick
    2-lead leg kick
    1-2-lead leg kick
    3-2-lead leg kick
    But whenever you can finish the combo with the rear leg kick, it's better, because it deals more damage. So... 1-rear leg kick, 3-rear leg kick, 4-3-rear leg kick...

    Sure was! I'm sure that was an oversight though and will be fixed by retail, as yeah, his inside is fantastic, not as good as his outside, but still NASTY.
    And the 2-lead body was one I liked to throw, I used most of those Leg Kick combos too, I loved his rear leg kick, I managed to take out an overhand spammer with exactly 5 of them haha, it felt really good, the animation looks tight, too.
    One thing I tried, but never could chain as Barboza was the Lead-rear body kick combo that was on the Lvl 4 MT combo list GPD posted (I don't think I misread it) dunno if there was a certain way to chain it like a whiffed high kick into spin backfist, did you have any luck testing that one?
    Haz____
    Is there anyway we could get this 1 back?
    The step in jab off the lead lean?
    Lean Jab:

    The lead lean is the most common generally, because it's the most defensive. Your back and shoulder act as a shield for income strikes. It's common for fighters to use this position to feel out the opponent, act as a feint, or bait, and often as a safe place to launch a step in jab from.
    For some reason the step in jab lean jab has been removed from UFC 3.
    It was awesome for things like slipping a strike and hopping in, cracking with the 1-2.
    kinda like this-

    Can someone like Solid maybe give me some insight on this? Any idea why this technique was removed?
    Solid_Altair
    Hold your horses. You're getting a few things wrong. As you've noted, the leaning punches aren't suppose to be treated just like the normal ones, because the leaning version has some benefits. The main benefit is the evasion. It allows you to win engagements even from frame disadvantage and offers usually a high pay off in damage. And punching after the lean is fast, which is different from punching be faster even hough added to the lean. Leaning and punching is still slowr than just punching. But if you lean, the punch after it is faster than usual. It will also deal more damage.

    The leaning strike is thrown after the leans execution, it isn’t an integrated strike, it's an offcentre one.
    The strike does not and should not have evasive property during its recovery/active/execution frames, so, all else equal, why did what are essentially off-centre strikes need different properties from neutral ones? Unless you believed neutral strikes in this game are inherently unbalanced too?
    Again the "leaning strike" in this game is a neutral strike thrown of centre, they do not and should not have evasive properties, or for that matter any differing properties, from their neutral counterparts.
    Why not nerf them by just making them like regular punches, then? Because:
    1- The lean acts as the wind up, so it makes sense for the punch to be faster (maybe not so much for ducking hooks, but certainly for the other punches).
    Are you talking about spring motion? Yea that would be a viable factor if the strike was thrown during the execution/recovery of a lean and on the correct side of the load. What you seem to be forgetting is that the leaning strike is thrown after a lean execution or recovery; the strike is not integrated into the animation of the lean.
    2- The lean provides a spring, the wind-up, more torque, so it makes sense for the punch to be stronger.
    This would only be realistic if the strike was thrown during the leans execution or recovery frames but it isn’t, so where is this toque coming from? Throwing a strike during a complementary motion will provide additional momentum, true, but throwing one whilst simply being off-centre will not.
    3- It is very important that the punch is fast, to make sure that you get the opportunity to intercept the opponent's follow up shot, even if you're using a slow fighter. In FNC, that wasn't the case - could keep comboing you quickly and often hit you as you were throwing the slip counter, but since the game severely lacked stopping power, you'd go through his shot to land your own, which had stopping power because it was a slip counter. The whole thing was far from clean.
    The big difference is the GDP had finally increased stopping power and added a well crafted definitive counter system. The foundation is already much different from the examples you provided.
    The ultimate issue here seems to be a lack of integrated striking, which is strange because GDP had the insight to add that option to standing footwork mechanics (e.g. striking whilst moving). “Leaning strikes” are thrown well after a lean, not only is this unrealistic, it makes close range counter play look jarring/non-fluid.
    In real life you will seldom be able to counter a combination by simply slipping it then striking, unless the slipped strike throw has incredible momentum. Most successful intercepting counters in real life are integrated strikes (strikes thrown whilst slipping, not after).
    By implemented the option to throw integrated leaning strikes into the game you can essentially counter and interrupt a combo without having to impose unrealistic and pointless balances, so long as the counter and damage system are constructed correctly. I think that implementing an option to throw integrating leaning strikes – with a realistic toque system – whilst eliminating the silly unrealistic, balances made to the beta (guaranteed strike from whiff or block leaning strikes, speed/power enhancement of strikes thrown off centre e.t.c) should be the next patch to striking.
    And as to the jab-body kick thingy, it was changed because the whole combo was faster than the single strike. The issue wasn't that a body kick was faster after a jab. That's usually how combos work. The problem was that it was faster with the jab, including the jab's execution. That's why it had to change. This is very different from what happens to the leans and the other combos. Therefore, there is no inconsistency here.
    GDP acknowledge himself, in this very thread, that the issue was the dependency in speed.
    Every time I watch Gameplay this bugs the hell out of me.
    EA Sports UFC 2 Jab from close boxing range:

    EA Sports UFC 3 Jab from close boxing range:

    Does anyone here actually feel that UFC3's close jab animation looks better? I brought this up before and people said it was fine because the fighter are too close so there's no way for the hand to extent, but that's not accurate... even if you're close to the opponent, you can still wind-up and extend the punching arm because when you hit the opponent you knock his head backwards.
    It just looks terrible.
    My question is: "Is there a way to just transfer the UFC2 version to UFC3 without having to recapture it completely?
    MartialMind
    Every time I watch Gameplay this bugs the hell out of me.
    EA Sports UFC 2 Jab from close boxing range:

    EA Sports UFC 3 Jab from close boxing range:

    Does anyone here actually feel that UFC3's close jab animation looks better? I brought this up before and people said it was fine because the fighter are too close so there's no way for the hand to extent, but that's not accurate... even if you're close to the opponent, you can still wind-up and extend the punching arm because when you hit the opponent you knock his head backwards.
    It just looks terrible.
    My question is: "Is there a way to just transfer the UFC2 version to UFC3 without having to recapture it completely?

    Why not have 2 different lead straights.
    1. Regular quick snapping jab, that will not have the arm extend at a closer range.
    2. Stronger, bit slower & pushing lead straight that will cause the arm extension at all ranges (also snapping opponent's head back).
    MMAFRoO
    Why not have 2 different lead straights.
    1. Regular quick snapping jab, that will not have the arm extend at a closer range.
    2. Stronger, bit slower & pushing lead straight that will cause the arm extension at all ranges (also snapping opponent's head back).

    The arm should always extend, what you can take out is the shoulder "pop", call it a flicking jab or something, slightly shorter range, quicker, less power/stopping power. The fighters should never really shortarm their punches that badly, unless the opponent run into their fist early in the punch.
    Also, in relation to Martial's video, is it possible that this difference is because the UFC 3 video shows a neutral jab, with no step, but every straight punch in UFC 2 has a little step on it? Like, maybe the forward jab looks the same as it did in UFC 2. To be clear, the stationary jab should have full extension, but I have no real issue with it lacking the shoulder pop that the jab in 2 had.
    Lake the striker
    The leaning strike is thrown after the leans execution, it isn’t an integrated strike, it's an offcentre one.
    The strike does not and should not have evasive property during its recovery/active/execution frames, so, all else equal, why did what are essentially off-centre strikes need different properties from neutral ones? Unless you believed neutral strikes in this game are inherently unbalanced too?
    Again the "leaning strike" in this game is a neutral strike thrown of centre, they do not and should not have evasive properties, or for that matter any differing properties, from their neutral counterparts.
    Are you talking about spring motion? Yea that would be a viable factor if the strike was thrown during the execution/recovery of a lean and on the correct side of the load. What you seem to be forgetting is that the leaning strike is thrown after a lean execution or recovery; the strike is not integrated into the animation of the lean.
    This would only be realistic if the strike was thrown during the leans execution or recovery frames but it isn’t, so where is this toque coming from? Throwing a strike during a complementary motion will provide additional momentum, true, but throwing one whilst simply being off-centre will not.
    The big difference is the GDP had finally increased stopping power and added a well crafted definitive counter system. The foundation is already much different from the examples you provided.
    The ultimate issue here seems to be a lack of integrated striking, which is strange because GDP had the insight to add that option to standing footwork mechanics (e.g. striking whilst moving). “Leaning strikes” are thrown well after a lean, not only is this unrealistic, it makes close range counter play look jarring/non-fluid.
    In real life you will seldom be able to counter a combination by simply slipping it then striking, unless the slipped strike throw has incredible momentum. Most successful intercepting counters in real life are integrated strikes (strikes thrown whilst slipping, not after).
    By implemented the option to throw integrated leaning strikes into the game you can essentially counter and interrupt a combo without having to impose unrealistic and pointless balances, so long as the counter and damage system are constructed correctly. I think that implementing an option to throw integrating leaning strikes – with a realistic toque system – whilst eliminating the silly unrealistic, balances made to the beta (guaranteed strike from whiff or block leaning strikes, speed/power enhancement of strikes thrown off centre e.t.c) should be the next patch to striking.
    GDP acknowledge himself, in this very thread, that the issue was the dependency in speed.

    What makes you think strikes are happening after the execution and recovery of the lean? The recovery of the lean would be returning to center. And the strikes from the leans are integrated, in the sense that not ony do they not require you to go through the full recovery of the lean (going back to center, before you throw), but also cut some of the execution for the punch, both in speed and in visuals, because you're already "springing". You're making it sound as if there is a terrible pause in the animation.
    Furthermore, you can strike during the execuion of the lean. With the back lean (which is based on range) you can strike before your head gets all the way back.
    I'm not sure if you lose evasion frames as soon as you start to strike. I suspect that if you quickly input a side lean and a straight, you can keep evading during the straight's execution. But I need confirmation on this.
    The only way to execute a more naturalistic balance as you wish would be to throroughly allow evasion frames during the strikes. This is already the case with body punches, for instance. But with them, I don't think it'd be possible to block, then go for a body punch an get the lean to work in time, becaus ethe combos are fast and you'd just get blasted at the very beginning of the body punch (if you get to start it at all). With the regular slips, we can break out of the block stun sooner than normal and evade a follow up. But the regular slips wouldn't allow a counter by your standards.
    The only way to counter would be to start your own strike before the opponent's strike would connect... as you would evade during your execution. The controls could be a bit of an issue for this stuff (the right thumb has to lean and strike). But assuming you'd get this sorted, that would mean that your counter options would decrease quite a bit, as they would have to work much like the body punches do, the evasion happening during the execution. A ducking uppercut, for instance, would likely be too slow.
    I didn't get that part. Was that a disagreement to the stuff I said about it?
    Solid_Altair
    What makes you think strikes are happening after the execution and recovery of the lean? The recovery of the lean would be returning to center. And the strikes from the leans are integrated, in the sense that not ony do they not require you to go through the full recovery of the lean (going back to center, before you throw), but also cut some of the execution for the punch, both in speed and in visuals, because you're already "springing". You're making it sound as if there is a terrible pause in the animation.
    Furthermore, you can strike during the execuion of the lean. With the back lean (which is based on range) you can strike before your head gets all the way back.
    I'm not sure if you lose evasion frames as soon as you start to strike. I suspect that if you quickly input a side lean and a straight, you can keep evading during the straight's execution. But I need confirmation on this.
    The only way to execute a more naturalistic balance as you wish would be to throroughly allow evasion frames during the strikes. This is already the case with body punches, for instance. But with them, I don't think it'd be possible to block, then go for a body punch an get the lean to work in time, becaus ethe combos are fast and you'd just get blasted at the very beginning of the body punch (if you get to start it at all). With the regular slips, we can break out of the block stun sooner than normal and evade a follow up. But the regular slips wouldn't allow a counter by your standards.
    The only way to counter would be to start your own strike before the opponent's strike would connect... as you would evade during your execution. The controls could be a bit of an issue for this stuff (the right thumb has to lean and strike). But assuming you'd get this sorted, that would mean that your counter options would decrease quite a bit, as they would have to work much like the body punches do, the evasion happening during the execution. A ducking uppercut, for instance, would likely be too slow.
    I didn't get that part. Was that a disagreement to the stuff I said about it?

    He didn't articulate his points very well and he's wrong on some accounts. The lean is its own thing, the jab is its own thing. But, when you lean and push the jab right afterwards, it's almost indistinguishable from being simultaneous. The lean jab DOES and SHOULD have evasive properties. You dodge the opponent's own punch and land yours. This is true in both real life and in the game. I honestly don't know what he's talking about. Not to mention that even if the jab happened separately from the lean by half a second, it's a game. Having the lean jab be it's own button combination takes up valuable controller real estate. Flicking to lean and then pressing the button for your punch is the best way to do it.
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