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Madden NFL 25 News Post


MyMaddenPad has posted another Madden NFL 25 read option article. In this one, Shopmaster goes into how to stop the read option. More specifically, how you can control how the read defender will react (attacking the QB or RB) on read option plays.

Quote:
I asked Creative Director Rex Dickson how this worked and he explained to me that in Madden 25, pre-snap on defense, there is a Defensive Key option available when the user enters Defensive keys, this is the flow and behavior:

You first Press LT/L2 to enter Defensive Keys

Then it depends on whether you want to attack the QB or the RB:
  • Press X/Square to have the Read defender go after the Runningback Ė The Read will crash and chase the Runningback
  • Press A/X to have the Read Defender go after the Quarterback Ė The Read will stay at home and attack the QB when he starts running

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Member Comments
# 21 infemous @ 06/05/13 03:25 PM
I'm in two minds on this one.

Personally, I think it is stupid when an opponent calls a read option play over and over again and the DL attacks the RB every time.

I find it hard to believe that the DeMarcus Ware example from last year will repeat itself.

I do however feel that no-one in their right mind would ever go after the RB. This makes this control function slightly overpowered...

I wonder how this works for play action off the option? Can you automatically know whether it is a run or play action based off of this control?
 
# 22 jeffmanqb3 @ 06/05/13 04:00 PM
Here is a video of edge contain
 
# 23 TheDelta @ 06/05/13 04:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by infemous
I do however feel that no-one in their right mind would ever go after the RB. This makes this control function slightly overpowered...
Um so I give/pitch every single time and have one defender I never need to worry about?
 
# 24 jeffmanqb3 @ 06/05/13 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDelta
Um so I give/pitch every single time and have one defender I never need to worry about?
That's exactly the point of read options.
 
# 25 hanzsomehanz @ 06/05/13 05:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffmanqb3
I have a couple of things. First, the edge contain hot route does not work. The end will still follow the running back. Second, what if the offense doesn't run a read option? I shouldn't lose a pass rusher every time the offense passes out of pistol or shotgun because I want to contain the quarterback on read option.
Jeff, ratings distinguish discipline.

The QBs PA ability and offensive success/prowess in the run game will have an influence over your edge contain guy(s). On Defense it is your play recognition, awareness and pursuit.

It is not a foolproof strategy either way: the offense is also given a visual aide to help identify the reads in defense that signal when to hold on and when to let go.

I am not naive to understanding why they have given the offense and defense this ability but it is damn near spoon-feeding.

Why even have PRC? The ability to recognize and decipher deception and stay disciplined, if it can be so easily overriden. There is a recovery chance in the read option. If you fall for the bait you can still recover with pursuit or safety help - you have ten teammates.

I cannot fathom the sudden hand flailing when a mission fails.

In my experience, I will highlight coverage on the RB and put edge contain on the DEs or 34 edge rush LBs. I can also user the Safety. Is this plan of attack successful all the time? No, and that is as it should be.

I am aware this mechanism is not fool proof and defenders should still err but if the motions slowly develop well then it becomes a mini battle on both sides, kind of like a rock-papers-sissors match: this is not Football strategy.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2
 
# 26 Trick13 @ 06/05/13 05:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by N51_rob
You mean like in real life? I don't like this at all. So far the NFL hasn't shown an ability to stop the read option. Why give the user one button that will essentially take all the randomness out of it.

When the Redskins played the Dallas Cowboys in week 17, Washington left DeMarcus Ware unblocked on just about every running play and left him to make the call. Ware was rendered useless for much of the game because of the great ball handling of RGIII and his natural aggression. Dallas coaches were telling DeMarcus to stay at home and not bail on his assignment, but he kept doing it. Now EA gives us a button to take that away.

Based on most running plays in Madden 13, the best way to stop this would be to just have the defender take the QB, because the blocking on the rest of the play was rather bad. Not a fan of this move at all. And yes I do use the Redskins and see the potential to limit the impact of my QB.
On the part of the Cowboys (vs Redskins) - horrible coaching job - Ravens did just what any intelligent coaching staff would do against any running QB - beat his backside every chance you get - game plan and say if there is an option to your side of the field - go kill the qb -if there is even a chance he might have the ball, blast him.

And it isn't like the Ravens were the first team to use that strategy - Patriots did it to Tebow in the playoffs - Tampa Bay used to beat the heck out of Vick and made him look very pedestrian - by just running through him - if you miss no big deal, but go at him hard every single chance you get. The read option won't last long, teams will start shying away from it, because you are likely going to be losing your starting QB too often.

I think this is a necessary counter point to read option plays. Replicates being the coach and saying to your guys at certain positions "your job is to make the opponents quit running that garbage college crap by beating the ever loving heck out of their QB every chance they give you!!!"
 
# 27 N51_rob @ 06/05/13 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trick13
On the part of the Cowboys (vs Redskins) - horrible coaching job - Ravens did just what any intelligent coaching staff would do against any running QB - beat his backside every chance you get - game plan and say if there is an option to your side of the field - go kill the qb -if there is even a chance he might have the ball, blast him.

And it isn't like the Ravens were the first team to use that strategy - Patriots did it to Tebow in the playoffs - Tampa Bay used to beat the heck out of Vick and made him look very pedestrian - by just running through him - if you miss no big deal, but go at him hard every single chance you get. The read option won't last long, teams will start shying away from it, because you are likely going to be losing your starting QB too often.

I think this is a necessary counter point to read option plays. Replicates being the coach and saying to your guys at certain positions "your job is to make the opponents quit running that garbage college crap by beating the ever loving heck out of their QB every chance they give you!!!"

Not sure what Ravens game you watched, but that isn't at all what happened. Baltimore was very, very disciplined in their edge defense and made Griffin hand the ball off, but they were not hitting him on the read option. (The Bengals did that though.) They hit him on passing plays, and that Nata hit which didn't come on a read option but on a scramble on a passing play.

Tebow wasn't the passing threat that Kap, Griffin and Wilson are/were/is. Vick didn't run this offense when he was in Atlanta.

I'm not saying that defense won't catch up or catch on to this. But its easy to say that you just tell the guy to "stay at home" or "go get the QB". Its a whole different thing for that edge guy to stay at home as Alfred Morris takes the ball and breaks off runs of 6, 5, 4, 6, 6, 4, 26 yards while you just stand there and watch. Eventually the competitive nature of the end guy will take over and he will abandon his assignment. It actually happened in the Ravens game, but Griffin was so conditioned to give the ball to Morris he missed the read.

I have no problem with EA adding this assist for the defender, but my problem will be when a DE/OLB with 20 awareness and 25 play recognition is supremely disciplined in his defense because of an audible/button press. Someone remind me when EA has introduced something in the game and it hasn't been overpowered in recent memory?
 
# 28 hanzsomehanz @ 06/05/13 05:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trick13
I think this is a necessary counter point to read option plays. Replicates being the coach and saying to your guys at certain positions "your job is to make the opponents quit running that garbage college crap by beating the ever loving heck out of their QB every chance they give you!!!"
It is abhorrent in the sense that it is done in the heat of the moment as if you have a devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other: the coach on the sideline or general in the fog of war, neither one has this immediate (real-time) command over displine.

It does not simulate the true to life playcalling strategy - it merely circumvents the decision making tree by chopping off nuanced branches.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2
 
# 29 jeffmanqb3 @ 06/05/13 06:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz
Jeff, ratings distinguish discipline.

The QBs PA ability and offensive success/prowess in the run game will have an influence over your edge contain guy(s). On Defense it is your play recognition, awareness and pursuit.

It is not a foolproof strategy either way: the offense is also given a visual aide to help identify the reads in defense that signal when to hold on and when to let go.

I am not naive to understanding why they have given the offense and defense this ability but it is damn near spoon-feeding.

Why even have PRC? The ability to recognize and decipher deception and stay disciplined, if it can be so easily overriden. There is a recovery chance in the read option. If you fall for the bait you can still recover with pursuit or safety help - you have ten teammates.

I cannot fathom the sudden hand flailing when a mission fails.

In my experience, I will highlight coverage on the RB and put edge contain on the DEs or 34 edge rush LBs. I can also user the Safety. Is this plan of attack successful all the time? No, and that is as it should be.

I am aware this mechanism is not fool proof and defenders should still err but if the motions slowly develop well then it becomes a mini battle on both sides, kind of like a rock-papers-sissors match: this is not Football strategy.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2
I think we all agree that the new system should not result in perfect reads by defender everytime. However, I do not think the system puts training wheels on the defense. I should be able to tell my end to stay at home when he correctly reads the play. That is normal football strategy. Because I always play inside or middle linebacker I cannot use that strategy on current games.
 
# 30 The_Rick_14 @ 06/05/13 06:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz
It is abhorrent in the sense that it is done in the heat of the moment as if you have a devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other: the coach on the sideline or general in the fog of war, neither one has this immediate (real-time) command over displine.

It does not simulate the true to life playcalling strategy - it merely circumvents the decision making tree by chopping off nuanced branches.
Where is real-time coming from? It's a pre-play assignment key not once the ball has been snapped. Granted, I don't disagree that it may be better during play calling, but being pre-play allows you to have different strategies for different formations which could be very true to life.
 
# 31 hanzsomehanz @ 06/05/13 06:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Rick_14
Where is real-time coming from? It's a pre-play assignment key not once the ball has been snapped.
I stand corrected. Thanks Rick

Much ado about nothing.

Sorry guys lol

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2
 
# 32 Trick13 @ 06/05/13 07:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz
It is abhorrent in the sense that it is done in the heat of the moment as if you have a devil on one shoulder and an angel on the other: the coach on the sideline or general in the fog of war, neither one has this immediate (real-time) command over displine.

It does not simulate the true to life playcalling strategy - it merely circumvents the decision making tree by chopping off nuanced branches.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2
Did not seem to affect the Ravens in the SB vs Kap. They hit him every time, forced him to give up the ball every time for 3 1/2 qtrs. I get where you are coming from, but I watched the SB and saw shades of Tampa Bay vs Vick when he was on the Falcons - beat him into submission over and over - Read Option will not be as successful this year in general - because if you put your QB in that situation, smart football says go blast him every time, the RB can have his yards but your QB is not beating me with his feet.

Now, ratings should matter in this, AWR or PRC or some combo should determine the discipline which a player accepts the "coaching" of the "hot route". 20 AWR/PRC guys should be darn near useless if not manually controlled and even then it should be a battle to get them to be effective. I have often wondered why AWR isn't used as a modifier or "drag" effect on other ratings...
 
# 33 hanzsomehanz @ 06/05/13 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trick13

Now, ratings should matter in this, AWR or PRC or some combo should determine the discipline which a player accepts the "coaching" of the "hot route".
I figured this would remain a point of concern and majority would agree that the hot route should not be *foolproof.

Remember, the option is bait like the PA and like the PA you may command the D to respect pass but some players may still bite on the **fake handoff.

Player: "Coach, I swear it looked like he handed that ish off!"

Coach: "I know, I know, we were fooled too - I think his own sideline was fooled. "

Coach: "I really need you to keep your containment and take your eyes off the ball."

*Containment is part of special teams too.

**A player still needs to be susceptible to deception and ratings plus prowess should determine the triggers on both sides. EA gave these QBs a PA rating for a reason albeit RGIII was given one of the worst per this article below.

http://mymaddenpad.com/2013/05/10/ma...action-rating/

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2
 
# 34 Trick13 @ 06/05/13 08:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz
I figured this would remain a point of concern and majority would agree that the hot route should not be *foolproof.

Remember, the option is bait like the PA and like the PA you may command the D to respect pass but some players may still bite on the **fake handoff.

Player: "Coach, I swear it looked like he handed that ish off!"

Coach: "I know, I know, we were fooled too - I think his own sideline was fooled. "

Coach: "I really need you to keep your containment and take your eyes off the ball."

*Containment is part of special teams too.

**A player still needs to be susceptible to deception and ratings plus prowess should determine the triggers on both sides. EA gave these QBs a PA rating for a reason albeit RGIII was given one of the worst per this article below.

http://mymaddenpad.com/2013/05/10/ma...action-rating/

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2
Agreed.

RG3's crap rating in PA - egregious for sure - is due to how over the top the "physical" attributes calculate into OVR. If you take RG3 and dump his SAC,MAC,DAC,PA, and throw on run down to 70 - he is still an 81 OVR - go one further and drop his THP to 80 (pretty bad) and he is still rated a 76 OVR (has 81 AWR in this roster I used and was a 94 OVR before adjustments I mentioned)

EA absolutely must reduce the impact of speed/AGI/ACC on OVR across the board. It should be variable to a degree based on position and to an extent on "scheme", but even RBs are rated too high OVR based on speed/agility/acceleration.

Chris Johnson, by dropping his juke/spin/truck/carry/elusiveness/BC vision/ down to 70 leaves him as a 74 OVR - sorry but a player with no higher than 70 in all those categories at RB should be no higher OVR than a 70...
 
# 35 infemous @ 06/06/13 09:29 AM
I would really recommend people reading Shopmaster's answers in the comment section of this article.

I need to reply to Shopmaster's excellent response but am just heading off somewhere, wish I checked it earlier!

If someone could post them in here so that everyone can see it'd be a great topic of discussion and something that will please a lot of Madden gamers... At least in the sense that we have someone we can trust in Shopmaster asking the important questions.

Again, I'd like to give a massive thank you to Shopmaster for his excellent work.

 
# 36 jpdavis82 @ 06/06/13 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by infemous
I would really recommend people reading Shopmaster's answers in the comment section of this article.

I need to reply to Shopmaster's excellent response but am just heading off somewhere, wish I checked it earlier!

If someone could post them in here so that everyone can see it'd be a great topic of discussion and something that will please a lot of Madden gamers... At least in the sense that we have someone we can trust in Shopmaster asking the important questions.

Again, I'd like to give a massive thank you to Shopmaster for his excellent work.


Most definitely, these are the comments that stood out to me.

Shopmaster: Is there progressive fatigue in the game, because I ran the ball 40+ times and my fatigue meter was the same amount as it was at the beginning of the game as it was in the 4th qtr. How does fatigue meter work, because maybe it is working like it's supposed to. I also went into practice mode (offense only) and put the ball on the 1. I did a dive and ran from one endzone to the other and then I ran from one endzone to the other holding the sprint button. The fatigue meter in my opinion wasn't that much difference by the time I got to the endzone both time. Clearing holding the sprint button drained more, but not by that much. I was using Arian Foster. I think there should be more fatigue drainage when holding sprint and it should run out before you run 100 yards, no matter who it is.

Rex:

Letís start with an important distinction. Although fatigue and stamina are linked, they are two separate systems. The stamina meter (thatís what you see in game on the player ring, this is NOT fatigue) is more about how
much energy you expend on a given play. This impacts your overall fatigue, which is the Ďover the course of the gameí energy system that is tied to substitutions, injuries, fumble chances, etc. The biggest hits to your fatigue meter are performing precision moves and holding down the acceleration burst button. There is an important note here, as once you reach 100% speed, the acceleration burst action doesnít do anything for you other than reduce your stamina. If you are low stamina (in the red on the meter) on a given play, you will actually play slower/sloppier evasion move animations and your top speed will go down slightly.

So fatigue is tied to injuries and fumbles but constantly using your stamina affects your fatigue.


Chris
Great news shop, one question though regarding the qb running in general. Last year people could run qb's straight into a linebacker with the only risk/reward factor being a simple tackle. When has ANY qb in NFL history ran towards a linebacker heads up in a RB style and not been punished for it? Like when Ngata made RG3 pay for not going out of bounds last year, if you do that in Madden 13 not only will Ngata not crush him or make him fumble but he might even catch a stiff arm/shrug off type of animation. If you are the QB and you choose to run and do not slide when embracing contact, rather its a DB running full steam into you or a LB, you should face the consequences. If not why would any QB ever slide in real life knowing they can run directly into a full steamed defender and shrug him off? When Vick doesn't get down what happens? How about RG3? Biggest part for defense against the option is putting that fear in the QB's mind.


Shopmaster Mod Chris ē 18 hours ago −
If funny you ask that. When I visited Austin to play in May I ran the Pistol Offense exclusively and ran with RG3 15 times and he did not fumble once. I sent an email to Rex voicing the same concern. People should be forced to slide and there should be immediate ramifications if you don't. No way I should have gotten hit 15 times and not 1 single fumble. Here was Rex's reply:

This has recently been tuned to provide a bigger penalty for
QBís who donít slide when running with the football. Fumble chances are there,
but injuries are the true risk here. I strongly recommend playing close
attention to your QBís overall fatigue before you take off running every play,
as losing a starting QB is a heavy price to pay for forgetting to
slide.
 
# 37 Big FN Deal @ 06/06/13 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpdavis82
Most definitely, these are the comments that stood out to me.



Chris
Great news shop, one question though regarding the qb running in general. Last year people could run qb's straight into a linebacker with the only risk/reward factor being a simple tackle. When has ANY qb in NFL history ran towards a linebacker heads up in a RB style and not been punished for it? Like when Ngata made RG3 pay for not going out of bounds last year, if you do that in Madden 13 not only will Ngata not crush him or make him fumble but he might even catch a stiff arm/shrug off type of animation. If you are the QB and you choose to run and do not slide when embracing contact, rather its a DB running full steam into you or a LB, you should face the consequences. If not why would any QB ever slide in real life knowing they can run directly into a full steamed defender and shrug him off? When Vick doesn't get down what happens? How about RG3? Biggest part for defense against the option is putting that fear in the QB's mind.


Shopmaster Mod Chris ē 18 hours ago −
If funny you ask that. When I visited Austin to play in May I ran the Pistol Offense exclusively and ran with RG3 15 times and he did not fumble once. I sent an email to Rex voicing the same concern. People should be forced to slide and there should be immediate ramifications if you don't. No way I should have gotten hit 15 times and not 1 single fumble. Here was Rex's reply:

This has recently been tuned to provide a bigger penalty for
QBís who donít slide when running with the football. Fumble chances are there,
but injuries are the true risk here.
I strongly recommend playing close
attention to your QBís overall fatigue before you take off running every play,
as losing a starting QB is a heavy price to pay for forgetting to
slide.
I am so glad to read Rex's response in the bold, in spite of Shop's error about fumbles versus injury. Just because RG3 got hit 15 times, shouldn't directly correlate to a fumbles but it should injury, like Rex stated. Like I have been saying forever, fumbles should be about the way the player is carrying the football at the time of the hit and the actual contact the defender has on the football.
 
# 38 DeuceDouglas @ 06/06/13 01:18 PM
I really hope the stamina/fatigue is cumulative. That's probably getting a little ahead of myself there though. I can't quite remember how Fight Night did their stamina, but IIRC there was a sort of round stamina and fight stamina and the more you spent yourself longer in the fight, the lower your stamina would be going into each additional rounds. Same thing would apply more so to a season stamina vs. game stamina.

Say you give your back 40 carries in week one where his stamina is at full-capacity, you go into next week and his stamina is at something like 86% or something and he tires quicker and such.

Seen it so many times with guys like Larry Johnson and Shaun Alexander where guys get basically ran into the ground to the point where one year they're absolute studs and two years later they're out of the game.
 
# 39 Big FN Deal @ 06/06/13 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceDouglas
I really hope the stamina/fatigue is cumulative. That's probably getting a little ahead of myself there though. I can't quite remember how Fight Night did their stamina, but IIRC there was a sort of round stamina and fight stamina and the more you spent yourself longer in the fight, the lower your stamina would be going into each additional rounds. Same thing would apply more so to a season stamina vs. game stamina.

Say you give your back 40 carries in week one where his stamina is at full-capacity, you go into next week and his stamina is at something like 86% or something and he tires quicker and such.

Seen it so many times with guys like Larry Johnson and Shaun Alexander where guys get basically ran into the ground to the point where one year they're absolute studs and two years later they're out of the game.
Already been confirmed that game to game, week to week cumulative fatigue effects are NOT in NCAA 14. Seems like it's confined to just one game and done.

http://forums.traditionsportsonline....6#post-1352417

I would presume the same is true of M25.
 
# 40 DeuceDouglas @ 06/06/13 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big FN Deal
Already been confirmed that game to game, week to week cumulative fatigue effects are NOT in NCAA 14. Seems like it's confined to just one game and done.

http://forums.traditionsportsonline....6#post-1352417

I would presume the same is true of M25.
Yeah I'm not expecting it but depending on how it works in game, I think it could be solid. I'm guessing when players are fatigued and perform these "slower/sloppy" moves it will be like NBA Live when you tried to pull a crossover or spinning dribble move with some big guy that would result in some clumsy looking move that usually resulted in a turnover.
 


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