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Madden NFL 13 News Post


EA Sports Designer, Clint Oldenburg has explained the strength rating for lineman in Madden, which includes a detailed look at how players strength ratings are determined and how gamers see it in-game.

Quote:
For the linemen, STR is a match-up between a blocker and a defender who are engaged with each other. If the disparity is largely in the blocker's favor, he will be able to hold his block for a longer-than-average amount of time based on the size of the disparity (not every time). If the STR rating matchup is in favor of the defender, he will be able to disengage from the block much quicker than normal on average (again, not every time). And if the two players have similar STR ratings, you'll see varied results in wins and losses over the course of game, but neither will dominate in this one specific area.

Make sure you give it a read, plenty of good details inside.

Source - Madden Strength Rating for Linemen (SOTL)

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Member Comments
# 1 KingV2k3 @ 01/04/13 02:51 PM
Interesting read, but also underscores the fact that Madden continues to be "azz-backwards" where the OL / DL interaction is concerned...

The ratings crew treat the LT as the "blindside" for pass blockers and the right for run blockers / maulers...

The commentary also has lines where Simms mentions that teams run off the "power tackle" on the right and the pass blocker is on the left...

But the guys who are in charge of the gameplay have had the D's pass rush come from the D's left (opposite to RL) side forever...

The sacks are generated by the LDE / LOLB / LDT...which is backwards...in the current system, the D's pass rushers line up against the O's run side...

This year, they made some adjustments in the depth charts that moved some players into positions to reflect HOW THE GAMEPLAY ACTUALLY WORKS (or in this case, doesn't)...

But, it's still a mess...

Maybe instead of a STR blog, the ratings guys should look up the gameplay AND commentary guys (down the hall?) and FINALLY get all three on the same page where OL / DL interaction is concerned...

Just a thought...

 
# 2 KBLover @ 01/04/13 04:19 PM
Quote:
For the linemen, STR is a match-up between a blocker and a defender who are engaged with each other. If the disparity is largely in the blocker's favor, he will be able to hold his block for a longer-than-average amount of time based on the size of the disparity (not every time). If the STR rating matchup is in favor of the defender, he will be able to disengage from the block much quicker than normal on average (again, not every time). And if the two players have similar STR ratings, you'll see varied results in wins and losses over the course of game, but neither will dominate in this one specific area.
So all it does is determine maintenance of the block, not the movement or push that a lineman can get...?

So a 99 STR LT vs a 30 STR DB is not going to push the DB around, just make it hard for the DB to get away?

STR certainly seems to impact pancakes...the top 2 pancakers on my OL are my monster of a LG (97 STR), and my equally menacing RG (95 STR). It's not even close. LG has 19, RG has 21. So if it's not STR that's doing it, what is?

And, yeah, King, the game play with the LT/RT is so backwards. It's insane. They have a guy who played and knows OL on staff and it's STILL backwards. Go figure, huh.
 
# 3 Bull_Dozer @ 01/04/13 08:15 PM
Awesome. Now just tell us exactly how the other ratings work please.
 
# 4 Kaiser Wilhelm @ 01/04/13 08:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingV2k3
Interesting read, but also underscores the fact that Madden continues to be "azz-backwards" where the OL / DL interaction is concerned...

The ratings crew treat the LT as the "blindside" for pass blockers and the right for run blockers / maulers...

The commentary also has lines where Simms mentions that teams run off the "power tackle" on the right and the pass blocker is on the left...

But the guys who are in charge of the gameplay have had the D's pass rush come from the D's left (opposite to RL) side forever...

The sacks are generated by the LDE / LOLB / LDT...which is backwards...in the current system, the D's pass rushers line up against the O's run side...

This year, they made some adjustments in the depth charts that moved some players into positions to reflect HOW THE GAMEPLAY ACTUALLY WORKS (or in this case, doesn't)...

But, it's still a mess...

Maybe instead of a STR blog, the ratings guys should look up the gameplay AND commentary guys (down the hall?) and FINALLY get all three on the same page where OL / DL interaction is concerned...

Just a thought...

I understand what you are saying, but I am willing to bet this guy isn't the one making all these decisions, seeing as I have never heard of him. At this point, I grateful somebody over at the Empire is releasing some damn info about the inner workings of this game.

I'm rather excited to see if this becomes a sort of developer diary thing. Of course, developer diaries usually are more useful prior to the game shipping, but beggars can't be choosers, and right now, we are beggars.

Anybody want to create interest via and aggressive letter writing campaign?
 
# 5 TheDelta @ 01/04/13 09:31 PM
So I gotta ask, if the only thing STR determines is how long a block can be held, what the hell are R/PBK ratings for? I thought those were supposed to determine those kind of things...
 
# 6 DCEBB2001 @ 01/05/13 12:19 AM
I must say that I disagree with how STR is measured and evaluated with EA currently. As you guys know for the FBG Ratings project I have brought in consultants in biomechanics from the University of Minnesota and statisticians from Texas A&M University for my project.

I was told from the guys at UM that strength is the overall capability of a player to exert maximum force during a single effort. The 1-rep-max is by far the best way to measure this for the 2 core lifts; bench press and back squat.

Power, on the other hand, is the ability to exert force at higher speeds in a vector. The core lift to measure power is the power clean.

Now, after reading this article, it seems to me that what they are referring to is not really static strength, but how static strength is APPLIED on the field. Isn't that what the BSH/RBS/PBS/TRK/SFA abilities are for? To tell us how well a player UTILIZES his strength ABILITY? That is...how well the player reaches his POTENTIAL for exerting maximum force?

What is so darn maddening about how EA does this is that I didn't have to pay thousands of dollars to get this information from experts in biomechanics! If I can do it, and find the experts in the field to give educated opinions, why can't EA!? I know why they brought Clint in, but he is not an expert in biomechanics and it seems to me that the guys at EA are clearly not defining their terms correctly, nor are utilizing them properly.
 
# 7 KBLover @ 01/05/13 04:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slick589
Speed kills in the NFL but in madden it can win you games no matter how bad a player is rated in positional attributes
That never works for me. I've read it often, and have had no success. I'll get more out of slower WR with better hands and feet than the speed guys who can only run fast.

Jacoby Ford is trash for me and he's very quick and fast. Meanwhile, Marcel Reece as a TE is far more reliable with 7 less SPD.

Taiwan Jones is equally bad. Yet, Caulder, 8 points slower, is far better with only 70 AWR.

Fast WR with crap RTE and RLS don't get open fast enough. If their catch sucks, they'll drop what's thrown them (DHB literally dropped 57% of ball thrown at him before I had enough, and, yes, I tracked it).
 
# 8 KBLover @ 01/05/13 04:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCEBB2001
Now, after reading this article, it seems to me that what they are referring to is not really static strength, but how static strength is APPLIED on the field. Isn't that what the BSH/RBS/PBS/TRK/SFA abilities are for? To tell us how well a player UTILIZES his strength ABILITY? That is...how well the player reaches his POTENTIAL for exerting maximum force?
They are - but they are not measures of his actual raw power. I think that's what the game is trying to go for.

Take one of those body builder types - he'd probably have 99 STR. But could he block Jared Allen? That's what I would envision 99 STR, 12 PBK as being. He can pull an airplane, but has no skill and stopping a pass rusher, no base, no kick step, no ability to disrupt the rusher's balance, no ability to read the arc and adapt, etc.

I think what they tried for was a combo approach. Take good run blocking technique and assignment knowledge and combine it with that pull-an-airplane guy, and you have a monster run blocker. He has the strength (99 STR) and knows how to use it (99 RBK).

Someone who knows how to run block, but might be a WR, could have high RBK, but not as much raw power (lower STR). He'll probably be better with cut blocks and such.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I think that's the aim they were shooting for.
 
# 9 GiantBlue76 @ 01/05/13 06:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCEBB2001
I must say that I disagree with how STR is measured and evaluated with EA currently. As you guys know for the FBG Ratings project I have brought in consultants in biomechanics from the University of Minnesota and statisticians from Texas A&M University for my project.

I was told from the guys at UM that strength is the overall capability of a player to exert maximum force during a single effort. The 1-rep-max is by far the best way to measure this for the 2 core lifts; bench press and back squat.

Power, on the other hand, is the ability to exert force at higher speeds in a vector. The core lift to measure power is the power clean.

Now, after reading this article, it seems to me that what they are referring to is not really static strength, but how static strength is APPLIED on the field. Isn't that what the BSH/RBS/PBS/TRK/SFA abilities are for? To tell us how well a player UTILIZES his strength ABILITY? That is...how well the player reaches his POTENTIAL for exerting maximum force?

What is so darn maddening about how EA does this is that I didn't have to pay thousands of dollars to get this information from experts in biomechanics! If I can do it, and find the experts in the field to give educated opinions, why can't EA!? I know why they brought Clint in, but he is not an expert in biomechanics and it seems to me that the guys at EA are clearly not defining their terms correctly, nor are utilizing them properly.
But remember? This is somehow the "suits'" fault, not the incredibly inept developers working on this game. You know, kind of like how in season 3 of our CCM, we are now repeating the exact same schedule as in season 1.

I lost IQ points by reading that article.
 
# 10 LBzrule @ 01/05/13 07:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBLover
So all it does is determine maintenance of the block, not the movement or push that a lineman can get...?

So a 99 STR LT vs a 30 STR DB is not going to push the DB around, just make it hard for the DB to get away?

STR certainly seems to impact pancakes...the top 2 pancakers on my OL are my monster of a LG (97 STR), and my equally menacing RG (95 STR). It's not even close. LG has 19, RG has 21. So if it's not STR that's doing it, what is?

And, yeah, King, the game play with the LT/RT is so backwards. It's insane. They have a guy who played and knows OL on staff and it's STILL backwards. Go figure, huh.
Which IMO is dumb but that's why we see that mess in the game. I had a game the other night where a corner stood up an offensive tackle shed the block and made a play on Ray Rice in the backfield What governs pancakes? One would think it has to be impact block. But the Impact block was also in the high 90's and the DB still stood him up, got off the block and made a tackle in the backfield.
 
# 11 LBzrule @ 01/05/13 08:31 AM
Also, what defensive ratings correspond to the offensive ratings to determine that that CB is going to get off the block and make a play in the back field?

Other questions:

In CC I purchase all of these traits for my linemen and linebackers. Spin move, swim move, bull rush, max out their consistency and I see no difference in their play whatsoever. Can't be strength for DL because Ngata has 99 strength and he isn't performing any moves.
 
# 12 youALREADYknow @ 01/05/13 09:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LBzrule
Which IMO is dumb but that's why we see that mess in the game. I had a game the other night where a corner stood up an offensive tackle shed the block and made a play on Ray Rice in the backfield What governs pancakes? One would think it has to be impact block. But the Impact block was also in the high 90's and the DB still stood him up, got off the block and made a tackle in the backfield.
And this is the sort of common sense logic we have been complaining about for years.
 
# 13 AndrewGW88 @ 01/05/13 10:46 AM
This would explain why we see DTs get the majority of the pressure on default sliders.
 
# 14 azdawgpound @ 01/05/13 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBLover
That never works for me. I've read it often, and have had no success. I'll get more out of slower WR with better hands and feet than the speed guys who can only run fast.

Jacoby Ford is trash for me and he's very quick and fast. Meanwhile, Marcel Reece as a TE is far more reliable with 7 less SPD.

Taiwan Jones is equally bad. Yet, Caulder, 8 points slower, is far better with only 70 AWR.

Fast WR with crap RTE and RLS don't get open fast enough. If their catch sucks, they'll drop what's thrown them (DHB literally dropped 57% of ball thrown at him before I had enough, and, yes, I tracked it).

u should give the 2 browns rookie wr's a shot josh gordon and travis benjamin

gordon has 91 speed,66 awr,catch is 84,route running 69,release 87
benjamin has 96 speed, 63 awr, catch is 77,route running 67, release 51

these 2 always make catches rather im playing online or my ccm and they always seem to get open.

now back on topic so strength is only when there engaged???? so like other say what is PB,RB, RBF,PBF??? have to do with olinemen???
 
# 15 Big FN Deal @ 01/05/13 11:29 AM
I didn't even finish reading the entire write up because it was yet another attempt at explaining how something is done in Madden, regardless of whether that's the best way to do it or not. It seems around the development of next-gen Madden there is this bubble that somehow common sense and/or the optimal way to do things are irrelevant.

I have been playing sports and other video games a looong time, ratings have always seemed to matter and make sense until next-gen Madden. All of a sudden when EA Tiburon is the only one that can make licensed football games, ratings becomes some convoluted marketing propaganda for the masses. The current state of NFL gaming under EA TIburon is a shame.
 
# 16 LBzrule @ 01/05/13 11:56 AM
I'm willing to hear things out on a series of ratings to see if what they are describing is being matched animation wise. I want to work through the logic though. If Strength = how long an OL can hold a block then one would think strength for DL/LB = how fast they can shed. Well let's hear it from Clint

Quote:
If the disparity is largely in the blocker's favor, he will be able to hold his block for a longer-than-average amount of time based on the size of the disparity (not every time). If the STR rating matchup is in favor of the defender, he will be able to disengage from the block much quicker than normal on average (again, not every time). And if the two players have similar STR ratings, you'll see varied results in wins and losses over the course of game, but neither will dominate in this one specific area.
If STR does this for defenders then how significant is the Block Shed rating? What's it's impact in a player's disengagement?
 
# 17 Bull_Dozer @ 01/05/13 12:49 PM
I hope for the next gen versions (PS4, XBOX 720), they scrap the current ratings system and start over. It really seems like a convoluted mess.
 
# 18 Big FN Deal @ 01/05/13 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bull_Dozer
I hope for the next gen versions (PS4, XBOX 720), they scrap the current ratings system and start over. It really seems like a convoluted mess.
Exactly, most of the game is a convoluted mess, imo. Not to bash too much but after not playing M13 for quite sometime or any video games, I was watching my gf's son playing NBA2k13 a few days ago. When it went to the Halftime Show/Report, I instantly just shook my head thinking of Madden again.

EA Tiburion has taken creating a solid NFL video game and made it out to be some unreachable goal. Making sports simulation video games is not rocket science considering other companies are and have done it. They actually refer to Donny Moore as the "ratings czar" but if I were him I would be ashamed to be associated with the rating system in Madden.

Real talk, everybody is not cut out to do everything and it seems many people working on Madden, aren't cut out to make a NFL video game. That said, I don't wish anyone out of a job and Lord knows I had to "fake it til I make it" before at jobs, so I understand. However, I hope the new consoles bring a better Madden and ultimately an end to the NFL exclusive license because I miss having a NFL video game that makes sense, which I can enjoy.
 
# 19 splff3000 @ 01/05/13 09:11 PM
I always thought the STR rating in regards to O-linemen(and anyone blocking for that matter) was used to determine how much push the player got while blocking. For instance, a player with high RB/PB ratings, but low STR would be more likely to be pushed back into the back field, but the player would still be able to maintain their block because of the high PB/RB ratings. On the flip side, a player with high STR, but low PB/RB ratings would get push while blocking, but would not be able to block that long. I figured IMP just determined the likelihood of a pancake block.

Boy was I wrong lol. It's my fault tho for thinking the way these ratings were applied into the game made sense. I'm like a bunch of these other guys in here wondering what do PB/RB ratings do if the STR rating determines how long a player holds his block. Judging by the way this game plays, the only other thing I can see PB/RB determining is if the player actually engages the defender. I'm sure we've all seen a tackle allow an end to come through without even engaging him. Maybe that's what that rating determines lol. I don't know, but I'm pretty curious to find out lol. Maybe Clint should have just spilled the beans on how all the blocking ratings work together instead of just focusing on STR. Now we're all sitting here wondering how in the hell the rest of the blocking ratings are applied lol.
 
# 20 feeq14 @ 01/05/13 09:23 PM
Sooooo....

how does strength matter for a WR or a running back? Kinda still important
 

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