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Game: NHL 12Reader Score: 7.5/10 - Vote Now
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# 1 FBeaule04 @ 07/25/11 07:58 PM
On the offensive side, it's looking solid, no doubt about that. The way Ovechkin reacts and the way Mike Green got the puck up recognizing it, it's good.

Again, NHL is always about the same problem. Defense as no reaction whatsoever. On the first clip, while the puck is dumped in the corner, you can see Brooks Orpik with good placement while Kris Letang is going toward the right side. Letang is just at the red line.

Well, if Ovechkin can recognize that Green is going to get the puck, someone can tell me what Letang is doing so that Ovechkin can skates in the neutral zone, untouched, and on a breakaway?

If Defense had, and I don't call for anticipation, but for christ sake, normal intelligence, then Letang would have just skate toward the red line (instead of going to take his place at the blue line just like he is) and have a nice 1 on 1 at the Pens blue line.

The second part is worse than the first part. First clip, Keith as a step on the guys chasing him, so even if Zetterberg anticipate the pass to the wing, no way is getting there. Then, on the NHL 12 anticipation AI, Zetterberg is going off Sharp to cut a pass because the freaking Wings forecheck force him toward the board (instead of center) and instead of flipping it to the glass, he tries a bomb in the middle. Not to mention that while Zetterberg react, both Wings defenseman are standing still just like in NHL 11.

And they say in the video that Defense is as much important as Offense? Are they taking me for an idiot or what? I just hope that we don't see the same crap from the AI D in NHL 12, because it would be inexcusable.

EA, a defenseman in hockey isn't just a guy patroling behind forwards and taking care of the front of the net. Go watch some clips of Bobby Orr, Ray Bourque and Larry Robinson...

Rant over!
 
# 2 d0wntime @ 07/25/11 11:20 PM
inexcusable? really? we are talking about millions of possible actions, interactions, and reactions. as the game is now, it has pretty solid ai. could it be better, you bet. but you act like they arent trying to make the ai better. maybe it wont work maybe it will. cant wait to find out.

having said all that, theres no way to know what happened after the wide shot. it looks to me like letang was in good position prior to the break out, so i would guess that that is a composite shot so that the goal is from a different play than the wide shot.
 
# 3 casbruce @ 07/26/11 12:47 AM
I liked what I saw. It's hard to judge the first clip because they don't let it play out from the same angle to see what happens after Green gets the puck. They could very well have taken the Ovechkin breakaway from a different play altogether and added it to the end for some "sizzle". Otherwise, why wouldn't they have just let the whole thing play out from that angle?

The second clip was good. Wings forecheck forces him towards the boards, as they should, to try and take away his space. Then he fires it up the middle. Is it the correct hockey play? No. Is it a play that happens all the time in real life? Absolutely. Guys panic and try to force things they shouldn't. He tries to fire it up the middle. Zetterberg sees it and picks it off for a neutral zone turnover. The best offensive chances from the rush are usually created by turnovers like this.

I don't understand complaining about the Wings defensemen on that play. As the pass is coming they are moving to close down on their defender. They aren't going to try and step up and intercept it themselves if the forward is moving towards it. They have to hang back as the Hawks forwards are already at their blue line.

I'll be interested to see how this works in other situations around the ice, but this looks promising.
 
# 4 Vikes1 @ 07/26/11 02:38 AM
First off...my perspective is nearly always from the view point of off-line play vs the AI....

As far as any concerns about the possibility of the defensive AI being in '12', as it was in '11', simply being too passive...I can forgive that being the case I guess with default settings. Believing that most people more than likely want a fast paced up and down type of play. Rather than a more grinding, physical battle, just to get into a decent scoring position. Ie...closer to real life NHL hockey.

Myself, I'm willing to play with the longer period lengths it would take to get realistic scores and stats, if we were provided with say aggression sliders that would truly bring a more sim-like gameplay. While others understandably, aren't. All I really ask outta the game is to provide us the options through the game settings to get the gameplay each of us prefer. Arcade or simulation. Or something in between.

Oh by the way....the video looked pretty good. Rammer mentioned about the defense, I'm sure hoping the "D" does in deed get it's fair shake.
 
# 5 FBeaule04 @ 07/26/11 08:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by d0wntime
inexcusable? really? we are talking about millions of possible actions, interactions, and reactions. as the game is now, it has pretty solid ai. could it be better, you bet. but you act like they arent trying to make the ai better. maybe it wont work maybe it will. cant wait to find out.

having said all that, theres no way to know what happened after the wide shot. it looks to me like letang was in good position prior to the break out, so i would guess that that is a composite shot so that the goal is from a different play than the wide shot.
My grief is all about AI downtime, not about the millions of interaction. Pretty solid AI? Ok, go do something. Go play a game as a goalie in BaP and tell me after that the AI is pretty solid. I'm eager to know what you will think about it.

Letang is in good position, and everything's fine if he is staying at the red line, knowing that Oveckin (that's anticipation, knowing that Ovechkin won't get deep in the defensive zone, but will look for the breakaway) is turning it up.

And if you read me well, I was happy with the video as far as anticipation for the forwards. What I don't like so far, and that's in every clip of EA, is the fact that D-man seems to only be orange cones on the ice.

I guess I'll know what the game is all about in september.
 
# 6 jaiman @ 07/26/11 09:51 AM
I really hope that broadcast view shown during the defensive part of NHL 12 is playable. It looks much better than the one in 11.

EDIT: Nevermind, Chase just confirmed in the NHL 12 Info thread that the broadcast camera is essentially the same as last years. So much for staying "authentic to the game".
 
# 7 kerosene31 @ 07/26/11 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBeaule04
Letang is in good position, and everything's fine if he is staying at the red line, knowing that Oveckin (that's anticipation, knowing that Ovechkin won't get deep in the defensive zone, but will look for the breakaway) is turning it up.
I don't think you can judge anything on that. The breakaway could just be a canned thing to make the video more interesting. We never even really see the player positioning after the pass.
 
# 8 FBeaule04 @ 07/26/11 10:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerosene31
I don't think you can judge anything on that. The breakaway could just be a canned thing to make the video more interesting. We never even really see the player positioning after the pass.
Let's call that Anticipation customer!

I had nothing wrong to say before NHL 11 because I was trusting EA. I know there's people who like the game and have fun with it. Unless I'm playing online or with controls of all players on the ice, I had no fun with that game and was really feeling cheated by EA's effort.

So, for NHL 12, maybe I'm anticipating bugs, glitches and so on, that way, I won't have deception if it's the case. For some, I maybe overreacting, but anyone playing BaP goalie in NHL 11 coudln't disagree with the AI dumbness.

Like I say, maybe I should just lay back and wait to see in september.
 
# 9 kerosene31 @ 07/26/11 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBeaule04
Let's call that Anticipation customer!

I had nothing wrong to say before NHL 11 because I was trusting EA. I know there's people who like the game and have fun with it. Unless I'm playing online or with controls of all players on the ice, I had no fun with that game and was really feeling cheated by EA's effort.

So, for NHL 12, maybe I'm anticipating bugs, glitches and so on, that way, I won't have deception if it's the case. For some, I maybe overreacting, but anyone playing BaP goalie in NHL 11 coudln't disagree with the AI dumbness.

Like I say, maybe I should just lay back and wait to see in september.
I'm very finicky when it comes to AI and I feel NHL 11 does a solid job. Could it be improved? Of course (what AI couldn't). I don't play goalie though so that could just be a unique thing. BAP always has some different AI issues that come up from time to time. The D will definitely wander and do random things, but that happens in real hockey too. I play either D myself or Center and on all-star the CPU D does a solid job against me.
 
# 10 d0wntime @ 07/26/11 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBeaule04
My grief is all about AI downtime, not about the millions of interaction. Pretty solid AI? Ok, go do something. Go play a game as a goalie in BaP and tell me after that the AI is pretty solid. I'm eager to know what you will think about it.

Letang is in good position, and everything's fine if he is staying at the red line, knowing that Oveckin (that's anticipation, knowing that Ovechkin won't get deep in the defensive zone, but will look for the breakaway) is turning it up.

And if you read me well, I was happy with the video as far as anticipation for the forwards. What I don't like so far, and that's in every clip of EA, is the fact that D-man seems to only be orange cones on the ice.

I guess I'll know what the game is all about in september.
my point was simply that you, like others, treat game developers like the worse people in the world if they get AI wrong. programming AI has got to be one of the hardest thing for anyone to do. i cant even imagine how they get sprites to do the things that i see them do in nhl 11, let alone what they are saying they will do in nhl 12.

i never said that the ai was perfect. there is a lot more that i would like to see. but i am not going to lambast the devs for falling short.

finally, as i and a lot of other people have pointed out that you still are unwilling to concede, it seems pretty obvious that that ovechkin clip consists of three incongruent clips, not one long play. the only angle that shows a defender on screen, is the one where all the defensemen are in a good defensive position.
 
# 11 MizzouRah @ 07/26/11 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mondoguitar
Why is EA saying this is a "new video" released June 25th. This exact video was released weeks ago. In that video they discussed "dynamic goaltending", "full contact physics" and "Anticipation AI"... this is just the one clip from that informational video and it's EXACTLY the same.
Ok so I'm not crazy?
 
# 12 FBeaule04 @ 07/26/11 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by d0wntime
my point was simply that you, like others, treat game developers like the worse people in the world if they get AI wrong. programming AI has got to be one of the hardest thing for anyone to do. i cant even imagine how they get sprites to do the things that i see them do in nhl 11, let alone what they are saying they will do in nhl 12.

i never said that the ai was perfect. there is a lot more that i would like to see. but i am not going to lambast the devs for falling short.

finally, as i and a lot of other people have pointed out that you still are unwilling to concede, it seems pretty obvious that that ovechkin clip consists of three incongruent clips, not one long play. the only angle that shows a defender on screen, is the one where all the defensemen are in a good defensive position.
Ok, let's say I'm making assumption out of incomplete clips. Let's say I'm expecting AI Defense (because the point is that AI isn't all bad in NHL 11, but AI Defense is pure s...) to be as bad from what I see so far. On offense, it's not that bad, but there's issues that makes the game really frustrating.

In all honesty, can you tell me it's acceptable for devs to let go these four things in NHL 11 :
- AI D pinning themselves on the board while there's no pressure around them
- AI D backing, backing, backing until the goalie as the nose in their ***
- AI FWD stopping at the blue line while he can hit the zone
- AI FWD with the puck on a 2 on 1 or 2 on 0, going to the corner

I can live with the AI decision making in some part, nothing as to be perfect. But when you ship a product out on the market and you don't notice these problems I saw in my first 3 game as a BaP on All-Star as a goalie, excuse me then to be a bit sarcastic about EA's dev team work.

Oh, and to be fairly honest, you know when I started to threat EA's dev like the worse people in the world? The time their head chief came to us saying NHL 11 was tested over and over to avoid major lapses in gameplay while we found out that they took us for idiots.

If NHL 12 is good on the AI side and improve like they advertise, I promise I'll be the first to come on here and praise the dev team. Until then, like I say, excuse me to be a bit sarcastic since I don't like to be taken for an idiot.

Oh, and NHL 11 is still a good game! Just imagine what it would be if it was tested! :-)
 

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