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This is Part 1 in what will, I'm sure, be a long series. Collect 'em all! Trade 'am with your friends! Stick 'em in your bicycle spokes to get that cool motorcycle sound!

Consider this a rookie card, and treat it with the respect that entails...{br}{br}View the Entire Article{br}

Member Comments
# 1 mgoblue @ 04/07/05 11:53 AM
great article Mark, and I agree with you...I can't sit and watch the CPU play a game on my console, that concept totally boggles my mind.
 
# 2 Dame @ 04/07/05 02:02 PM
great article i myself think the same way as you everytime i see thread like that i just wonder why
 
# 3 SPTO @ 04/07/05 07:14 PM
I wonder if the "posts i'll never understand" articles will morph into some kinda namedropping article where you question the logic and sanity of some posters LOL j/k

Great article and I agree totally. If I want to watch a sport i'll watch the real players play it. I also dislike sliders to the hilt. I will fiddle around with a couple sliders but for the most part I play the game out of the box and bump up or down the difficulty to my liking.
 
# 4 Hellfish76 @ 04/07/05 07:45 PM
wonderful article.... I agree with it completely!
 
# 5 Heelfan71 @ 04/07/05 08:07 PM
I have a theory about people who watch the cpu play itself.
 
# 6 cliburn @ 04/07/05 08:16 PM
I actually enjoyed that piece; great work Fossen.
 
# 7 ycbs @ 04/07/05 08:18 PM
While I love sliders and the ability they grant me to adapt the game to my skills (or lack thereof), I do scratch my head sometimes at how widely accepted some of the self-proclaimed slider experts' "slider sets" are. I mean, are all the gamers at OS really at the same skill level, so much so that these slider sets are hailed as miraculous gamesavers?

I do appreciate it when people figure out what some of the more ambiguous sliders do, but I wouldn't dream of assuming or telling people that my slider settings are the answers to their prayers. In fact, with some of the games with zillions of sliders (like MVP 05), I'd be shocked if anyone besides myself used my slider settings and thought they were perfect for them.

As for watching CPU vs CPU games, I WISH I had that kind of time on my hands. I have done it a few times in the distant past, though; mainly to check out the CPU AI or just to marvel at the game, without having to worry about paying attention to what I'm doing in the game at the same time.
 
# 8 Pared @ 04/07/05 09:23 PM
Quote:
However, proclaiming that your "slider set" is somehow a universal solution that is better than what ships seems a monumental act of hubris.
I agree completely; You will never understand.
 
# 9 Brandwin @ 04/07/05 10:09 PM
Great article Mark. I agree, ill never get why people want to watch the computer play itself. I have never done that and never will...
 
# 10 DueceDiggla @ 04/08/05 04:31 AM
Agreed with the whole article Fossen. Good read.
 
# 11 Graphik @ 04/08/05 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pared
I agree completely; You will never understand.

I'm sure Pared will agree with this but some ppl lack the patience to come up with there own slider set and instead of doing there own tinkering, they'll bug the slider gurus forever until they create a base set.

After a few attempts at posting my custom set of sliders, I came to the conclusion that nobody plays the game the exact same way I do so it is kinda redundant to post and update sliders when everyone will get diffrent results. Then you gotta deal with the ones who cant figure out if a slider is sopposed to go right or left......

...anyways, I can understand a discussion about a games sliders but when it gets to the point where ppl rely on a few to amazingly save their game, it makes me wonder. Why cant these ppl figure out these sliders by themselves? Its not exactly rocket science(with the exception of the NFL 2K series) If you're having a hard time getting base hits, there is a big fat option in the slider menu that says "HUMAN CONTACT" and its even under the "Batting" sub menu. But yet, we get hundreds of ppl who claim that its impossible to hit. Do these ppl not explore the games options? Is it that they just dont understand what Human Contact might mean? Or are they simply to lazy to do their own test and find a variable that suits there skill level? Of course its the ladder but what ppl have to realize is that sliders have gotten to the point where each persons may differ because of playing style, skill level and the biggest of them all, they're view of how the game is played. This is'nt the simple, universal slider set that games like Madden used. We're in a time where devs are trying to cater to each individuals needs.

Anyway, good artical man. Makes for great discussion.
 
# 12 fossen @ 04/08/05 09:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphik
I'm sure Pared will agree with this but some ppl lack the patience to come up with there own slider set and instead of doing there own tinkering, they'll bug the slider gurus forever until they create a base set.
I've seen posts - many of them - saying "I just bought game X, but won't even take the plastic off until there are good sliders. Are Pared's ready yet? Anyone else's any good? Please! I gotta play!"

That's nuts. There's a plenty good slider set inside that plastic - it's called "default".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphik
If you're having a hard time getting base hits, there is a big fat option in the slider menu that says "HUMAN CONTACT" and its even under the "Batting" sub menu. But yet, we get hundreds of ppl who claim that its impossible to hit. Do these ppl not explore the games options? Is it that they just dont understand what Human Contact might mean?
'Course, my argument is .... "learn to hit".

Look at Winning Eleven. In the Soccer forum after release there were tons of posts about strategy, technique, tips, etc. No one knew how to score, and they exchanged information about how to get better. How to set up shots, how to cross pass, how to position attackers, etc.

Because there were no sliders available.

I assure you, if there were sliders in WE all that discussion would have been replaced with slider settings. people would have tweaked this or that slider until they got the scoring they think they should have been getting. Instead of the excitement of mastering a game, we'd have made the game come to us.
 
# 13 mgoblue @ 04/08/05 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fossen
I've seen posts - many of them - saying "I just bought game X, but won't even take the plastic off until there are good sliders. Are Pared's ready yet? Anyone else's any good? Please! I gotta play!"

That's nuts. There's a plenty good slider set inside that plastic - it's called "default".


'Course, my argument is .... "learn to hit".

Look at Winning Eleven. In the Soccer forum after release there were tons of posts about strategy, technique, tips, etc. No one knew how to score, and they exchanged information about how to get better. How to set up shots, how to cross pass, how to position attackers, etc.

Because there were no sliders available.

I assure you, if there were sliders in WE all that discussion would have been replaced with slider settings. people would have tweaked this or that slider until they got the scoring they think they should have been getting. Instead of the excitement of mastering a game, we'd have made the game come to us.
I'm with you...I don't touch sliders anymore, I guess we're in the minority, but if i'm not playing well then I chalk it up to my ineptitude with the joystick. If i'm getting too good I push it up a notch. I used to think sliders were the savior of sports gaming, now I think they're the devil.
 
# 14 Stu @ 04/08/05 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fossen
I've seen posts - many of them - saying "I just bought game X, but won't even take the plastic off until there are good sliders. Are Pared's ready yet? Anyone else's any good? Please! I gotta play!"

That's nuts. There's a plenty good slider set inside that plastic - it's called "default".
My argument is that the default set isn't always the best, but then again I usually use sliders to make the game harder rather than easier.

In Madden for example. I play on All-Madden and at the default level the CPU team could never rush for more than 50 yards a game against me. In order to make the game more enjoyable and realistic for me it was necessary to crank up the CPU rushing game.

In regards to the people who are screaming for slider sets from day 1, I agree. Everybody plays the games differently so no one slider set will work for everyone.
 
# 15 aukevin @ 04/08/05 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by camulos
My argument is that the default set isn't always the best, but then again I usually use sliders to make the game harder rather than easier.
me too.
 
# 16 Pared @ 04/08/05 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphik
I'm sure Pared will agree with this but some ppl lack the patience to come up with there own slider set and instead of doing there own tinkering, they'll bug the slider gurus forever until they create a base set.
Absolutely. If I'm doing them for that individual who doesn't have time b/c he works 50+ hours a week, and doesn't have time to do things himself, where's the harm? Sliders are improving his experience, and that's what we want. If the dev. teams took the time to actually adjust ALL aspects of the game, I wouldn't have anything to post about. Hell, do you think it's fun sitting there and recreating the same seen over, and over, and over, and over, and over just to make sure others can get the same statistical accuracy the majority of us want? Noooooo.... but the results are always more than worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fossen
I've seen posts - many of them - saying "I just bought game X, but won't even take the plastic off until there are good sliders. Are Pared's ready yet? Anyone else's any good? Please! I gotta play!"

That's nuts. There's a plenty good slider set inside that plastic - it's called "default".
But that's what you're not describing in your article. You've already made it very publicly known you don't like sliders... fine. But can you argue sliders can't improve a game's realism? You can argue that realism in a video game is subjective... but how would you even come to that conclusion that your subjectivity is being recreated? Sliders.

There are plenty of games that, out of the box, are not as realistic in terms of balancing out, say, a player's ability to throw out someone (catchers). Should we just continue to play the game with this now seen flaw that may have been overlooked by developers, or should we have the capability to fix it? Should I continue throwing out runners very easily with Piazza when we all know that shouldn't be the case? Or should I increase the difficulty to a level where the CPU is cheap, just to make things harder? These sort of things can be fixed with sliders.

I understand the level of need for sliders very clearly; I try and offer up a base that usually improves on some minor flaws that can affect statistical outputs for the user. Hell, ANY slider fan does, if they're a sim-style gamer. But once that is in place, you have to not be so obsessive-compulsive that you can sit down with that set, and play the game as if that's IT. You can't change anything. And once you've found that slider set, that's what any sane person should do. Being on this site, however, we should know we're not exactly sane.


Quote:
Originally Posted by fossen
'Course, my argument is .... "learn to hit".

Look at Winning Eleven. In the Soccer forum after release there were tons of posts about strategy, technique, tips, etc. No one knew how to score, and they exchanged information about how to get better. How to set up shots, how to cross pass, how to position attackers, etc.

Because there were no sliders available.

I assure you, if there were sliders in WE all that discussion would have been replaced with slider settings. people would have tweaked this or that slider until they got the scoring they think they should have been getting. Instead of the excitement of mastering a game, we'd have made the game come to us.
But what do you once you "learn to hit?" Move up a difficulty level, right? And eventually you will find a difficulty level where the CPU is unreasonably cheap, for one reason or another. They don't beat you with skill, they beat you with things you just can't combat. (Imagine the MK series, where the harder the diff., the cheaper the CPU) This isn't the case with ALL games, but it def. is with MOST. To use WE8 is a bad example, b/c that game is truly beautiful. It's very hard for me to find flaws in that game...

How enjoyable would MLB 2k5 be if you didn't have sliders? Would 4 passed balls a game be "fun?"

I agree, this does make for an enjoyable discussion. Maybe I should write an article about how I'll never understand the individuals that just like Manage-Only!
 
# 17 Graphik @ 04/08/05 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fossen
I've seen posts - many of them - saying "I just bought game X, but won't even take the plastic off until there are good sliders. Are Pared's ready yet? Anyone else's any good? Please! I gotta play!"

That's nuts. There's a plenty good slider set inside that plastic - it's called "default".


'Course, my argument is .... "learn to hit".

Look at Winning Eleven. In the Soccer forum after release there were tons of posts about strategy, technique, tips, etc. No one knew how to score, and they exchanged information about how to get better. How to set up shots, how to cross pass, how to position attackers, etc.

Because there were no sliders available.

I assure you, if there were sliders in WE all that discussion would have been replaced with slider settings. people would have tweaked this or that slider until they got the scoring they think they should have been getting. Instead of the excitement of mastering a game, we'd have made the game come to us.

Real good points. Never looked at it that way.

Thing is, ppl put to much trust in sliders nowadays and sliders only account for probably half of the gameplay. The other half is the player skill. There is no real way to guage a entire groups skill level so relying on sliders to improve your game is the wrong way to go about it. I've always been the type to find out where my skill level is first, then adjust sliders accordingly. Then, you can go about making the game realistic. Ppl often do it the other way around and complain when they cant hit, pitch and give up to many runs.

It all stems from the 2K games IMO. People relied on slider sets because you would of had to do tons of research and trail and error in order to firgure out if the sliders worked effectivly. Turns out, some of the sliders did'nt work and were cosmetic. Thus turning a few ppl off from the game. It was slider sets and player editing that saved the game for most. Myself included.

Since then, everyone firgured that each game has a universal set of sliders that provide realism that anyone can use. Universal slider sets were popular in NCAA and Madden because everyone was having the same type of problems and the sliders were'nt as complicated to get a grip on. Todays sliders are complex as well as complicated and most ppl dont want to spent the extra time fine tuning.

But you're right, if sliders were eliminated then there would be more fundemental discussions of the game instead of slider talk. But with sports like baseball, football and basketball, you would expect most of the ppl in here to already have a fundemental grasp.
 
# 18 Pared @ 04/08/05 02:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graphik
But with sports like baseball, football and basketball, you would expect most of the ppl in here to already have a fundemental grasp.
Exactly.
 
# 19 Shaver @ 04/08/05 02:12 PM
It's subjective either way...

Someone who creates sliders "fine tunes" them based on either his own vision of what is "realistic" or by "statistics". Neither one make a game realistic. It may make for a better experience, but games aren't built to be 100% realistic. A few more homeruns, errors, passed balls, and diving catches out of the box is entertainment.

Oversized gorillas don't REALLY throw barrels at Italian Plumbers. But, would you set the THROW BARRELS slider to 0???
 
# 20 mgoblue @ 04/08/05 02:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay_OS
Oversized gorillas don't REALLY throw barrels at Italian Plumbers. But, would you set the THROW BARRELS slider to 0???
the man has a point
 

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