42 replies to this topic

[spiker]

I was lurking over at OS tonight and I picked this up. It's kind of a long read so I didn't post it in the thread but I think more than a few of you will be interested in this.

http://www.grantland...king-madden-nfl

[Travis7401]

Quote

I'd seen a lot of Anthony White in Pleasanton. He was rarely more than a few feet from Coach Madden, with whom he has, over the past five years, formed a tight bond. Both men can talk about shovel passes as though nothing in this world were more important.

ORLY. So important that it has never been in the game, in fact.

Quote

If you see something like that once or twice it's like, OK, 'Is it worth the cost of putting that in?' Because there's a cost for every play we put in the game." A memory cost, that is. If White overspends, other aspects of the game might not work properly.

This is because EA has the worst playbook management system ever devised by man.

Wish this article would have focused more on exclusivity. It mentions exclusivity, but it doesn't mention the fact that football video games have stagnated since Madden got the NFL license. They talk about how Gameday and NFL2k5 used to "scare the hell out of (them)." That's what sets the stage for creativity and forces devs to push the envelope. Madden has earned the repuation as a yearly "title update," because since they got the exclusive license, that's what it has been.

[spiker]

The way that it was written made Tom Bissell sound like an outsider. He confessed that he hadn't played Madden in over a decade. So while he didn't touch on exclusivity maybe because of his naivete, I liked that some of the things he did include seemed innocently revealing.

I thought EA laying out the "22 men on the field" argument is tired. Can anyone with real life programming experience just debunk that once and for all? How can you have a game like Skyrim running on the same hardware but EA can't figure out 22 men reacting simultaneously?

[Travis7401]

Soccer has 22 men on the field and even EA manages to capture that game much better than they do football. I'd also suggest that programming a "fluid" game like soccer to look/feel realistic would be MORE difficult than doing so with a game that allows programmers to "reset" every few seconds. Furthermore, real life football is also broken down into rules and reads that SHOULD lend themselves perfectly to programming, but EA doesn't even attempt it (ie look at their take on defense). I'm not saying that FIFA is the greatest video game ever, but it still shits all over almost every aspect of Madden/NCAA. Of course they had to keep innovating their soccer game because of competition.

Beyond the gameplay issues, EA's football dev teams can't get anything else to work correctly. Every new feature is hopelessly bugged and all of their game modes are ham-fisted. They are still broke-dicking around with Transfer Failed issues and allegedly finally got their OD website working properly. That's just pure ineptitude. NCAA12 is easily the least stable console game I've ever played.

[Makaveli_Reborn]

Travis7401, on 25 January 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

Furthermore, real life football is also broken down into rules and reads that SHOULD lend themselves perfectly to programming, but EA doesn't even attempt it (ie look at their take on defense).

Yeah I think this is a major point that is often ignored. To hear EA whine about trying to program football, you'd think that once the ball is snapped it's just a bunch of guys dicking around in some chaotic melee that they can't seem to capture.

Every player on the field has reads and rules (often very strict) that govern what they do on any given play. There is no way that's less conducive to virtual representation than more fluid sports like soccer and hockey.

[GR8 2 B FL G8R]

ur not banned, liar

[kella]

The things that are unrealistic about FIFA are tuned that way on purpose to make the game "feel" authentic while still being fun. You won't see a pro soccer match where one team has 12 shots and the other has 17 in TWELVE minutes. Therefore, some things are tuned to mitigate this. Keepers save shots they have no business saving, all but the most elite players can't shoot hard without absolutely perfect circumstances, etc.

The things that are unrealistic about EA football games are that way because the programming is lazy or just totally disregards what governs player actions.

[GR8 2 B FL G8R]

Yall are too nit picky. Madden is awesome. The new Maddens correct the defensive problem you whine about by a feature called Madden Ultimate Team, in which all of your players have 99 zone coverage.

[Reel E. Weird]

I read this article on OS about the state of 2k sports...they broke down every sports genre and the route 2k has taken regarding that particular sport...below is an exerpt

EA Sports’ exclusive license agreement with the NFL brought about the end of the NFL 2K series. 2K Sports tried to remain in the market with All-Pro Football, which featured fictitious teams and real-life NFL legends. However, the lack of real NFL teams, players and missing features proved to be too large of an obstacle to overcome. 2K originally planned to release the football game every other year, but shelved those plans and got out of the football gaming market altogether. While the EA/NFL agreement expires in 2013, it’s hard to imagine that the league will abandon the best-selling sports franchise and allow 2K to get back into the NFL market.

For crying out loud..the game has been out for 20 years...of course its going to be the best selling...and it didnt help that they havent had competition for the past few years so yea, they are going to be the only football game that gets bought....I dont understand how letting one company make a game ensures you will make the most money. In other words, I would offer up the license to any company that is willing to pay for it. Why give only one company the opportunity to make that game...unless the NFL gets money after the fact, i dont see why they allow only one company to make a licensed game on consoles. Hell if anyone read my review of NFL2012 for the mobile phone (which im sure none of you mongoloids did) that game isnt made by EA but its better than some of the shit i've played on consoles in recent years...Just give someone else a chance to make the damn game...I wouldnt care if EA's version of football sold 1M while 2k's version sold 750K...I made money from both companies paying for the license...

[Reel E. Weird]

Speaking of the future of madden...just read this on OS

Five Things EA Sports must do for Success in Madden NFL 13
Submitted on: 01/25/2012 by Phil Varckette

Ever since Madden landed on next-gen consoles, there has been a plethora of issues that seem to go unfixed every year. As gamers, we cannot seem to get an answer one way or another as to why these issues persist -- Is it just not possible to fix these issues given with what the developers have to work with? No matter the answer, the issues remain. With Madden 13 possibly being the last Madden to be exclusively on the current-gen systems, will we see some of the fixes we have been clamoring for, or do we simply have to put this generation behind us and hope for best on the upcoming new systems?

Without further adieu, here is the top five fixes EA must make for Madden NFL 13.

Newton throws over the middle and it's...blocked by a linebacker leaping 11 feet into the air?

1. Pass Trajectory

Look, it’s a bird, no, it’s a plane, wait…It’s a SUPER LINEBACKER!! Well actually it isn’t. Its not that the linebackers jump too high, it’s how the ball does not arc properly over the second level of the defense. Its like the ball travels on a single plane without variation. Sure, the ball can still be high or low, its just that there is no middle ground. If you are trying to throw the ball over the middle of the field, and if there is anyone within five yards they can easily bat the pass down.

This is an issue that has plagued the series since its debut on the current systems. My fear is that there is simply no way to fix it with the current game engine. I think as Madden fans we have made our voices heard for long enough to reasonable expect a fix this year. If not, then we surely must chalk it up to the unfortunate fact that it is unable to be fixed

2. Revamped Foot planting/Momentum engine

One of the single biggest complaints from Madden detractors and fans alike, is how the current foot planting engine needs a huge upgrade. Since the inception of Madden on our current generation consoles player movements seem to lack momentum. It also seems like a player can zig and zag to avoid contact way to easily, along with being able to turn on a dime. I should not be able to be running towards the sideline as I catch a pass and turn it up the line on a dime. My momentum should carry me out of bounds.

If only this were rendered in real-time...if only.

3. Real Time Physics

The mother of all wish list items. Real time physics could be a game changer if done right. Canned animations, or canimations as the community affectionately likes to call them, are getting old in most gamers eyes. The fact that Madden doesn’t seem to have a large number of them anyway is enough to make you want to pull your hair out. Real time physics could make every tackle, block and interaction unique.

4. The Little Things

Like MLB: The Show, Madden needs the little things. To be blunt, there is no excuse for some things being left out. I want all the penalties. I mean heck, we waited untilMadden 10 to have officials on the field. I want to see an illegal block in the back call on a punt or a kickoff return; I want illegal motion, defensive holding, illegal contact, and for the love of all that is football, make pass interference work. Basically, every penalty in football should be in the game. The challenge system also needs redone. Too many times it doesn’t challenge what you want it to. These are all things that should have been in the game since day one.

Totally willing to settle for less of the same, and more variety too. Deal? DEAL!

5. Animations

Madden suffers greatly from lack of animations. It takes away from the immersion factor. A football game needs to have enough animations where you don’t see the same things over and over. For example, catching animations are so few that you can pretty much see all of them in one game; the same could be said about blocking animations. What might be the biggest area where improvement is needed is tackling. Simply put, there needs to be a ton more tacking animations.

I shouldn’t see the same animations over and over. This, however, brings us to improvement No. 3, real time physics, and the ultimate problem solver to tackling. I want to see specialized animations as well. All 32 starting quarterbacks should have signature throwing animations, and at least most running backs should have their signature running animations, or as close to their real life movements as possible. Wonky running animations have been an issue for years.

Final Thoughts

If there is a negative tone to any of this, it is certainly not my intention. I am just a football game lover like all of us. These five improvements, while mostly gameplay based, are a very small amount of what we, as a community, want to see. I will be very interested to see where the Madden team takes us this year. With next-gen systems looming, will we even see real improvements, or will most of their focus being on the future. With the Super Bowl match up set, it shouldn’t be long before the first info starts to trickle out.

What are your top 5 keys to success for Madden NFL 13?

[Reel E. Weird]

Newton doesnt throw like that

[spiker]

I loathe OS's apologetic tone. There's absolutely no reason for them to make excuses for EA either. Fucking schills.

[Travis7401]

GR8 2 B FL G8R, on 25 January 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

Yall are too nit picky. Madden is awesome. The new Maddens correct the defensive problem you whine about by a feature called Madden Ultimate Team, in which all of your players have 99 zone coverage.

The biggest problem I have is the lack of run fits and responsibilities for the defense. Every real life defensive formation and play has run fits and responsibilities for every player (or almost every player in the case of a truly "free" safety). The passing game isn't as bad, but the lack of run fits by the defense causes the blocking programming to be problematic, and that causes the line interaction to blow. This also causes problems for the passing part of the game, because defenses can sit in completely unsound shells agianst any fromation, because all the players will just magicly run to da footbaw when it is a run play. Furthermore, it takes a big part of the "Chess match" out of defensive selection. Selecting a defense in madden is almost entirely based on the type of passing game you expect to face. There is little if any weight given to how the different coverages match up to the running game. In fact, often times the more unsound a defense the better it functions at stopping the run, because it fucks up the AI. "Nano blitzes" are another thing that we see as a result of run fits being implemented properly. Overload blitzes and non gap sound blitzes obviously exist in the NFL, but they have a huge downside if you hit it correctly. In the game they often don't have that downside. The lack of run fits also plagues the PA passing game dynamic and spread running. If CBs instantly know the play is a run and don't follow the WRs on the "run off routes" it really fucks up a lot of the spread running game. EA obviously attempts to ham-fist this and you end up getting a "Fix" where CBs just glide parallel to the play when you run an option.

The problem starts at a very core level of them not modeling one of the fundamental concepts of football correctly (defensive run fits) and it just propogates out from there, getting worse as EA attempts ham-fisted "fixes" to the problem.

[GR8 2 B FL G8R]

EA ham-fists your option problem by entirely removing the option from Madden.

Also, there is a Vilma with 96 speed in MUT. I can run fit enough for my entire defense with him.

I honestly think a lot of the problems you see in regular Madden and NCAA are minimized with an entirely 99 AWR, 99 ZCV, 99 Speed defense. Is this realistic? Yes, when everyone you play has a 99 team with equal strength. It balances out. I normally have 21-17 games in which great defense is played.

Edited by GR8 2 B FL G8R, 25 January 2012 - 02:38 PM.

[Travis7401]

GR8 2 B FL G8R, on 25 January 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

EA ham-fists your option problem by entirely removing the option from Madden.

Also, there is a Vilma with 96 speed in MUT. I can run fit enough for my entire defense with him.

Yes, this is often the problem I have with Madden/NCAA.

[spiker]

GR8 2 B FL G8R, on 25 January 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

EA ham-fists your option problem by entirely removing the option from Madden.

M13 has to add read options for Cam and Tebow offenses because it's in the game.

[GR8 2 B FL G8R]

Actually *I think* there are still read options, but no one ever uses them because they are so brokedick. They tried to fix the scrambling problem by the brokedick QB stutter step. Now when you call a read option, the QB brokedick stutter steps and is immediately hit on the backfield on any keep.

[Travis7401]

typical way they "fix" things.

[hayvis]

How can anyone make excuses for NCAA and Madden is beyond me. On the most basic level, the lack of physics and player momentum puts them lights years away from the premier sports titles on the market. Let alone the ham fisted AI and fucked up programming. I can't believe that anyone who is honest with themselves and put NBA 2k or MLB The Show in their console can say that EA football is anywhere near where it should be in capturing a sport.

[Reel E. Weird]

this is probably the best place for this...


EA Exec: Madden NFL 13 To Focus On Defense


Electronic Arts chief creative officer Richard Hilleman says the new leadership group at EA Tiburon is focused on making defense fun again.
Hilleman is no stranger to the Madden franchise, having designed the original game alongside Scott Orr and John Madden back in 1988. When I sat down with him at DICE, one of the big questions on my mind was what fans should expect from Madden NFL 13 given the large turnover at the top of the development team. Hilleman seems optimistic.
"They are doing big things this year," he said. "They're making big changes. Those are big changes that are going to break a lot of stuff, and they know that. What we're after is a better defense that's more fun to play."

The defensive side of the football has been long overdue for a revamp. The last major change to the defensive controls came in Madden NFL 05 with the introduction of the hit stick. Hopefully this retooling will also address the poor awareness demonstrated by the secondary in last year's game and mark the return of true gang tackling. If the new approach to defense was developed by EA Tiburon's shared technology group, there is a chance these features could extend over to NCAA Football as well.

Though Hilleman's current responsibilities extend beyond the EA Sports group, he still keeps close tabs on the division. I also asked him how he feels the new development team differs from last year's group, which lost general manager Philip Holt, creative director Ian Cummings, and executive producer Phil Frazier in the span of a year.

"The executive producer on the product line is Roy Harvey," he said. "Roy's been at Tiburon a long time. He did NCAA, so he knows the product and the system really well. Roy was also building a lot of the online back-end systems that supported Madden and the ancillary and flanker products that helped it, so he was being brought into the team where he's a pretty well understood player and he knows what he's got. The Madden engine is an acquired taste that requires specific knowledge. We go through that all the time – I get phone calls I still shouldn't get as far as I'm concerned. We brought Cam Weber on. Cam came from Fight Night and some other products. His cousin is Shea Weber from the Nashville Predators.

"What I like about the new team is that they haven't accepted any of the conventional wisdom about the product. I found that when I went down there a lot and talked about change I wanted to see in the product, I was considered a raving lunatic because I advocated more change than almost anybody else did. I would take bigger risks than anybody else. I think Cam is built out of that same cloth. His attitude is "what can I be," not "what could I lose"...I think Cam will do some pretty interesting things in that space so I'm pretty optimistic. I've loved the people who have worked on that game over the years.
"The other fact is Dale Jackson, who ran it for 14 years or something like that, he's like 35 feet away. So in the larger scheme of things Dale is still around, I'm still around, Roy is still around, and a lot of the new team is bringing the right kind of ideas. I don't think we're likely to make a terrible mistake, and I think we're pretty likely do so some things new that we needed to do."