Roger Clemens Trial

[IK720]

Quote: Originally Posted by wwharton

If Clemens makes the HOF then Bonds better too.

What about Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa?

[DieHardYankee26]

Quote: Originally Posted by IK720

What about Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa?

No to both. Neither of them did anything but hit home runs. Bonds's all around game is what makes him so special. The fact that he hit so many home runs is only a part of it, along with his stolen bases, on base percentage, and defense.

[ZB9]

Quote: Originally Posted by IK720

What about Mark McGuire and Sammy Sosa?

those two are borderline with or without controversy

Bonds, on the other hand, is one of the greatest of all time

[ImTellinTim]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZB9

those two are borderline with or without controversy

Actually, they would both be locks to eventually get in.

[ZB9]

Quote: Originally Posted by ImTellinTim

Actually, they would both be locks.

not to the level that Bonds is, certainly not Sosa

i dont know if 500 hrs is a lock anymore (Jim Thome, Rafael Palmeiro, Sammy Sosa)

[ImTellinTim]

Well Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time. So obviously not. You mention Thome, who I believe is a Hall of Famer as well (he has 600, btw).

On topic, I absolutely hate the argument that this was somehow a waste of money. That money is spent either way, it makes no difference what cases they're working on. It represents such a miniscule amount in the grand scheme of things, that I find it funny when people try to use it as a "gotcha" moment against the government.

[12]

I've moved away from my previous stance of known users not ever getting in.

I do think this trial was a huge waste of time and taxpayer dollars. $10 million is a drop in the bucket, but it could have been used in a more useful way considering where our country is right now. It was a failure and I hope these types of trials stop. Lying to Congress is not OK, but perspective and prioritizing our resources is sorely needed here.

The Steroid Era is a black eye to the game, but it is so encompassing that you can't keep players out of the HoF. The truth is, a lot of pitchers were most likely juicing as well. It's just a huge web that was involved in the culture of the game and there's no way to penalize some while not penalizing others.

I hope the era is denoted as the 'Steroid Era' but I think it's high time the game moves on.

[ZB9]

Quote: Originally Posted by ImTellinTim

Well Bonds is arguably the greatest hitter of all time. So obviously not. You mention Thome, who I believe is a Hall of Famer as well (he has 600, btw).

McGuire, Thome, and Sosa have hall of fame careers, but they arent first ballot "locks" imho

Bonds is a lock

[ImTellinTim]

Eh, I guess I see the government spend a lot more money on things I disagree with MUCH more than this silly trial, so it doesn't bother me.

As to the game moving on, I completely agree. I mean, one of the biggest stars in the game gets busted and gets no punishment. I personally think that players have been taking things to gain an advantage before the "steroid era" and continue to do so to this day. Let them all in as far as I'm concerned. And while we're at it, get Pete Rose in too.

Quote: Originally Posted by ZB9

McGuire, Thome, and Sosa have hall of fame careers, but they arent first ballot "locks" imo Bonds is a lock

That's why I edited my post. I agree with you and didn't want to make it seem like I thought they were all "first ballot locks".

[12]

Quote: Originally Posted by ImTellinTim

Eh, I guess I see the government spend a lot more money on things I disagree with MUCH more than this silly trial, so it doesn't bother me. As to the game moving on, I completely agree. I mean, one of the biggest stars in the game gets busted and gets no punishment. I personally think that players have been taking things to gain an advantage before the "steroid era" and continue to do so to this day. Let them all in as far as I'm concerned. And while we're at it, get Pete Rose in too. That's why I edited my post. I agree with you and didn't want to make it seem like I thought they were all "first ballot locks".

Agreed, if their numbers agree with HoF induction, then let them in. You can't keep them out forever. It was way too encompassing in the game, way too prevalent. I hate saying that but it's the truth. I think Canseco's estimation that 80 percent of the game was juiced is off, but it might not be too far off. I believe at one point, injecting yourself with steroids was as normal as popping a handful of sunflower seeds in your mouth.

It doesn't make it OK, but what do you do?

I also agree that players have been doing things for decades and decades to gain a competitive edge.