People who belong in the Hall Of Fame

[TheWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by Coug00

You're putting quite a few words in my mouth. I've never in my entire life said Branch is/was an elite or dominant player. He's a quality player that any team in the NFL would be happy to have on their squad, but he's definitely not a #1 receiver or an All-Pro/HoF'er. And I haven't seen anyone on here even get close to implying he is that good. I've simply seen people disagree with you calling him garbage.

I wasn't trying to accuse of you saying he was an elite player (although perhaps I kinda did, lol). However, people have defended him as such for a number of years, and the impression I got from your comments is that you may have believed this as well.

I've said he's been a marginal player over the course of his career. And yes, I said he has become garbage since leaving Brady. Yes, that may seem a little harsh but I didn't think he was that good before leaving NE and he's been playing below even that level ever since leaving... that's not good.

Quote: Originally Posted by Coug00

IMO, he's a quality #2. If in your book that's marginal in the grand scheme of things, then we're simply splitting hairs.

Well, I never said he wasn't a "quality" player at different points in his career. He was a reliable clutch player (I mentioned that one a little while ago) However, regardless of what situation brought him to this point he's got one foot outside the league as far I'm concerned, and that bubble is due to burst soon. I give him credit for his tenacity though. I call him marginal based on the marginal play he's produced over the course of his entire career. You can be of quality and still be marginal (limited quality). It's not an oxymoron.

[TheWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by AboveTheRim

Phil Simms needed a Second ring? Buddy Phil Simms has 2 Super Bowl Rings.

I'm aware that he got a second ring as a member of the team (I saw the entire season and remember it well) but I'm talking about getting a second ring while starting and playing. He had a broken leg/foot, so he never took a snap in Super Bowl 25. History only remembers the guys that played, not the guy on crutches on the sideline.

I'm convinced that had he played in that game and won it, Phil would've gotten in by now. I mean, the man made the Pro Bowl in his final year in the league after he was long considered washed up, got the Giants to the playoffs and won a playoff game... at age 39. And you know what? He looked good out there.

[TheWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocky

Curtis Martin is in. If he isn't on the first ballot, it's criminal. Herschel Walker had the worst luck and circumstances of anybody who should be in the HOF but isn't. Besides Eric Dickerson, he was the best RB of the mid to late 80's---in the NFL. We're not even talking about his USFL numnbers.

Yeah, knowing what we know now about a lot of the players that came out of the USFL (some of which are now in the HOF), I personally have no trouble adding those numbers in. The HOF committee took Warren Moon's CFL numbers into account (the CFL was much higher quality then than it is now though) so I have no problem with Walker's situation. The man rushed for 2,411 yards in one season in the USFL. That's just crazy.

[SPTO]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

I'm aware that he got a second ring as a member of the team (I saw the entire season and remember it well)

You make it sound like Simms was out for a long time but he played the majority of the season. In fact, when he got injured everybody and their mother thought the Giants' SB hopes were dashed that year. I'm convinced if Simms had gotten injured earlier in the season teams would've figured a way to stop Hostetler. Of course, it'd still be a tough task what with that Giants defense.

One needs to remember the G-Men were pretty lucky to even win the NFC Championship that year against the Niners. If Roger Craig hadn't fumbled the Niners would've likely won.

[TheWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by SPTO

You make it sound like Simms was out for a long time but he played the majority of the season.

How so? I realize he played most of the season (I live in NY, I saw just about every game, lol). Still, he didn't play in the Super Bowl that season, he got a ring as a member of the team. That's just what happened.

Quote: Originally Posted by SPTO

One needs to remember the G-Men were pretty lucky to even win the NFC Championship that year against the Niners. If Roger Craig hadn't fumbled the Niners would've likely won.

You're talking to a guy who at the time was a huge 49er fan, and I was heartbroken by what happened in that game. I still believe that had Montana not been knocked out, the course of the game would've been different and the 49ers would've won.

[shotgun styles]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

Shotgun.. didn't we go through this already? The third title was not won by a GW field goal. The Patriots were ahead 24-14, when Dexter Reid gave up a late TD to make it 24-21. Again, it was not won by a GW field goal. I gave up on the other debate about Brady because of all the hating, lol. But seriously, Let's at least get the facts straight... It doesn't matter how you win, it just matters that you win. Adam Vinatieri is a great player, he'll be in the HOF. But he would've never been in a position to do a single thing had Brady and the team overall not put him in position to do so. Kickers don't make reads, and they don't throw clutch passes. You need those things throughout the course of an entire game to even have a chance. QB's do those things, and that's what Brady did in all 4 Super Bowls including the one that was lost.

Adam would have never been in position? Brady would not even be in the NFL were it not for the 1978 rules changes! He'd be bagging groceries in Ventura.

Having said that, I have NFL Network. I've seen the games over and over. Those "clutch throws" you're going on about were DUMPS TO THE BACK. They were easy crossing patterns run against super soft prevent defenses. Any QB could have made them. 4th and 26 was a clutch throw. Brady did nothing of the sort.

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

I'll also reiterate once again the following: *During the TWO (only two) times that a GW FG was needed for the Pats to win the Super Bowl, the games were tied... tied. So even if Vinatieri had missed, the Patriots would not have lost right then and there. It would have at least gone to overtime. Let's not allow hate to distort the facts. Now this is the second time I'm telling you this... when you will accept these facts?

I never said anything different. Vinietary won those games, not Tom. That's not to say that if he missed they would have lost, but by making those kicks he DID WIN THOSE GAMES. Not Tom.

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

I'll never blame Scott Norwood for that loss. Never. The Bills were stacked with talent, and were simply a better team than the Giants. It should've never come down to a field goal. Marv Levy got out-coached and the Bills overall got out-physicaled. It's the one Super Bowl I can say for sure they should've won. The next three? Not so much.

Wow you just slapped yourself in the face! First you say Adam isn't responsible for those Patriot wins because the games were tied at the time. Now you say Norwood is not to blame for the Bills loss? WHAT?

I thought the point of the game was to score the most points than the other team. That IS how you win football games, or are you not aware of that "fact". Adam did, Scott didn't and that is what made the difference.

[jth1331]

Steve Atwater should get more recognition IMO for the HoF. He was arguably the best safety in the 90's.

Shannon Sharpe should get in. Part of 3 Super Bowl champions, held TE records when he retired.

IMO, I don't think Jerome Bettis was that great of a player and shouldn't be a lock for the HoF. Bettis, to me, stat filled his way his last few years. Career ypc of 3.9, i'd say 2 of his Pro Bowl years shouldn't be counted, his 2nd year in the league when he averaged a whopping 3.2 ypc and barely cracked 1,000 yards and 2001. Could make a case for 2004 since he was mainly a backup who got TD's on short runs in the red zone.

[Richie2k10]

Drew Pearson, Charles Haley, Darren Woodson (little early i know)

[TheWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

Adam would have never been in position? Brady would not even be in the NFL were it not for the 1978 rules changes! He'd be bagging groceries in Ventura.

You've got to give this up. Most people wouldn't agree with this school of thought for reasons too numerous to mention. But aside from that, the rules are what they are.

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

Having said that, I have NFL Network. I've seen the games over and over. Those "clutch throws" you're going on about were DUMPS TO THE BACK They were easy crossing patterns run against super soft prevent defenses.

This is totally false in every possible way. I could call up specific plays in every Super Bowl (and a number of them) that shows this to be totally untrue. In just Super Bowl 38 alone I can think of a number of throws that were clutch. Very few of them were dumps to a back (did you see that game? I've mentioned this to you before). Brady threw for 354 yards and 3 TD's, lol. The Panthers didn't play prevent defense all game long man, lol.

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

Any QB could have made them.

Comments like this one are were you take hits to your credibility. If any QB could make them, ask yourself why throughout history they haven't and only few have? Think about that. There is no way you could hold that opinion after giving that some careful thought, because the facts will show you that this in untrue. It may look easy, but it isn't. If it were, every QB would've been successful. Truth is, most QB's never amount to anything regardless of what system they're in, There is a simple reason for that...

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

4th and 26 was a clutch throw. Brady did nothing of the sort.

He didn't have to. How can that be held against him?

Also, clutch is not just doing a 4th and 26 and that's more luck than clutch, clutch yes, but still more luck than clutch.

Clutch is making the throws at critical points of the game when they have to be made. Your statements about dumping to backs all the time or not making clutch throws isn't supported by a shred of fact. All you have to do is read the statistical play-by-play to see this.

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

I never said anything different. Vinietary won those games, not Tom. That's not to say that if he missed they would have lost, but by making those kicks he DID WIN THOSE GAMES. Not Tom.

No. The Patriots as a team won the games, led by Tom Brady. Vinatieri is a kicker. They seldom are the sole reason for a team having a chance to win unless every point (or most of them) has been a field goal, and he never was the sole reason for any of those Super Bowl wins. The team as a whole had to play hard for 4 quarters to give Adam a shot.

Quote: Originally Posted by shotgun styles

Wow you just slapped yourself in the face! First you say Adam isn't responsible for those Patriot wins because the games were tied at the time. Now you say Norwood is not to blame for the Bills loss? WHAT? I thought the point of the game was to score the most points than the other team. That IS how you win football games, or are you not aware of that "fact". Adam did, Scott didn't and that is what made the difference.

You've gotta be kidding me. If you saw Super Bowl 25, then you know several things:

1. The Bills had the league's top offense lead by Superstars at a few different positions (Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas, Andre Reed, James Lofton, Kent Hull, etc.).

2. The Bills defense wasn't great but it was solid. Unfortunately, they allowed the Giants to hold the ball for over 40 minutes, giving up crucial third downs throughout the game that eventually killed them.

3. Playcalling was questionable.

Those three things tell us that the Bills got out-coached and out-physicaled. I'm not going to then blame a kicker for the loss after knowing those three things I just mentioned. The core team did not handle business like they should have. That's why they lost.

Living in Western New York for some time, I can tell you for certain that most people do not blame Scott Norwood. They blame a team that had all the pieces together for not going out there and playing like they were capable of playing.

Also, when did I say Adam Vinatieri doesn't deserve credit? I never said that. I'm saying that he doesn't deserve ALL the credit, because he didn't block a single guy, he didn't run a single ball, he didn't throw a single pass, he didn't catch a single pass, he didn't make a single tackle. He made a kick. Had the rest of the team not done the things I mentioned, Adam's kick would've been irrelevant in the two Super Bowls where he made them.

[TheWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by jth1331

IMO, I don't think Jerome Bettis was that great of a player and shouldn't be a lock for the HoF. Bettis, to me, stat filled his way his last few years. Career ypc of 3.9, i'd say 2 of his Pro Bowl years shouldn't be counted, his 2nd year in the league when he averaged a whopping 3.2 ypc and barely cracked 1,000 yards and 2001. Could make a case for 2004 since he was mainly a backup who got TD's on short runs in the red zone.

The Bus is a lock though.

YPC is never made a huge deal in these situations. His overall yards, TD's, and the fact that he was/is a media darling guaranteed his spot.