People who belong in the Hall Of Fame

[TheWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by Coug00

We'll have to agree to disagree. IMO Deion wasn't a marginal receiver or garbage like you said, he was a solid #2 receiver who has faced the opposing teams top corner for the last 3 years and still produced on the field. As we've discussed, his problem is that he's made of glass.

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree, but I'll stick to what I've seen on tape (and I've seen an awful lot) and I've seen, as others have, a guy who throughout his career has had trouble getting open against middle-of-the-road corners on many, many ocassions. It's not like he's been matched up against a great corner every week, lol. When you run down the list of guys he faced and failed to dominate, it's really not much of an argument about him not being a top player. He never was a top player, that's just a fact. I'll give him one bit of credit that he was clutch at the right times... but lots of guys were, that doesn't make them great players.

His injuries change nothing, because when he was on the field and healthy, he still didn't dominate.

Also, I said he was marginal pertaining to his overall career. I think that assesement is totally fair and accurate. Because you were injured here and there doesn't remove the fact of what you produced on the field when you were on the field. You don't get any passes, this is professional football. What you produce is what you produce and that's what you're judged by in the end. There are plenty receivers that missed lots of games, and lots of guys that played hurt. That's the reality of the NFL. You're going to have to do it. Yet, those guys still produced better than Branch and didn't have weak games against questionable corners on a regular basis. He was always middle-of-the-road even when healthy.

Quote: Originally Posted by Coug00

And you could be right about him declining. It wouldn't be surprising to see a 30 year old receiver decline following major knee reconstruction.

He wasn't exactly on an upswing before then...

30 years old is not old these days for a receiver, (a RB yes, not a WR), and I can remember Jerry Rice long after 30 (about 35 actually) blowing his knee out badly in San Fran and he came back fine, produced well and was still one of the top players in football and at the time the Doctors didn't think Rice had much left. Isaac Bruce is another guy I can point to who bounced back very well over the years from various injuries. Terrell Owens... all of those guys bounced back and produced. That's the difference between a great player and a marginal one, because even at less than 100%, the guys I mentioned were still better than 95% of the guys out there at different times.

The mistake people have made is putting Branch in the class of some of the elite receivers and a lot of it has to do with the mediocre season he had (and it was mediocre) where the Patriots won the SB and he had a good game and snagged MVP. He doesn't and never belonged in the elite class.

It's not a bad word against Branch to say he's a marginal/middle-of-the-road player, it's just a classing of where some players happen to be. If you think he's an elite player or was an elite player, then okay, but what he's done on the field says he's not and never was.

[TheWatcher]

Quote: Originally Posted by wwharton

All injuries aren't created equal. In Seattle he's rushed back early... I don't know if he's ever been 100%. That's not the same as in NE. He may never be 100% again, but I can't see how you can say anything about him (good or bad) since leaving NE if you go through the few games he's been even close to 100% over there.

I'd say most NFL players on any given Sunday aren't 100%. If you're a great player, your 85% is probably still better than most of the league at 100%. If you're marginal like Deion Branch, your 85% means you're about to get abused...

In 2005, Branch started and played in 15 of 16 games. Yet, he still didn't even crack 1,000 yards. But that was one of Brady's best statistical years as he threw for 4,110 yards, leading the league in that category. Now, I don't know too many top receivers that played that many games in a season, had a QB leading the league in passing yards, but still didn't crack a 1,000 yards receiving.

[duncan54matt]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

I'd say most NFL players on any given Sunday aren't 100%. If you're a great player, your 85% is probably still better than most of the league at 100%. If you're marginal like Deion Branch, your 85% means you're about to get abused... In 2005, Branch started and played in 15 of 16 games. Yet, he still didn't even crack 1,000 yards. But that was one of Brady's best statistical years as he threw for 4,110 yards, leading the league in that category. Now, I don't know too many top receivers that played that many games in a season, had a QB leading the league in passing yards, but still didn't crack a 1,000 yards receiving.

YEA that was a strange season but that is usally what happens the reciever will catch so many balls and when they do they are going to get hit and ussally that effects them in the futer!

[Coug00]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

Yes, we will have to agree to disagree, but I'll stick to what I've seen on tape (and I've seen an awful lot) and I've seen, as others have, a guy who throughout his career has had trouble getting open against middle-of-the-road corners on many, many ocassions. It's not like he's been matched up against a great corner every week, lol. When you run down the list of guys he faced and failed to dominate, it's really not much of an argument about him not being a top player. He never was a top player, that's just a fact. I'll give him one bit of credit that he was clutch at the right times... but lots of guys were, that doesn't make them great players. His injuries change nothing, because when he was on the field and healthy, he still didn't dominate. Also, I said he was marginal pertaining to his overall career. I think that assesement is totally fair and accurate. Because you were injured here and there doesn't remove the fact of what you produced on the field when you were on the field. You don't get any passes, this is professional football. What you produce is what you produce and that's what you're judged by in the end. There are plenty receivers that missed lots of games, and lots of guys that played hurt. That's the reality of the NFL. You're going to have to do it. Yet, those guys still produced better than Branch and didn't have weak games against questionable corners on a regular basis. He was always middle-of-the-road even when healthy. He wasn't exactly on an upswing before then... 30 years old is not old these days for a receiver, (a RB yes, not a WR), and I can remember Jerry Rice long after 30 (about 35 actually) blowing his knee out badly in San Fran and he came back fine, produced well and was still one of the top players in football and at the time the Doctors didn't think Rice had much left. Isaac Bruce is another guy I can point to who bounced back very well over the years from various injuries. Terrell Owens... all of those guys bounced back and produced. That's the difference between a great player and a marginal one, because even at less than 100%, the guys I mentioned were still better than 95% of the guys out there at different times. The mistake people have made is putting Branch in the class of some of the elite receivers and a lot of it has to do with the mediocre season he had (and it was mediocre) where the Patriots won the SB and he had a good game and snagged MVP. He doesn't and never belonged in the elite class. It's not a bad word against Branch to say he's a marginal/middle-of-the-road player, it's just a classing of where some players happen to be. If you think he's an elite player or was an elite player, then okay, but what he's done on the field says he's not and never was.

You're putting quite a few words in my mouth. I've never in my entire life said Branch is/was an elite or dominant player. He's a quality player that any team in the NFL would be happy to have on their squad, but he's definitely not a #1 receiver or an All-Pro/HoF'er. And I haven't seen anyone on here even get close to implying he is that good. I've simply seen people disagree with you calling him garbage.

IMO, he's a quality #2. If in your book that's marginal in the grand scheme of things, then we're simply splitting hairs.

[SPTO]

The thread on best position player on your favorite team reminded me of someone.

How bout Sam Gash? Yeah I know he didn't run or catch the ball much if at all but he was the single best blocking FB i've ever seen. The Hall should recognize EVERYONE and he's a guy that definitely belongs.

A stronger case can be made for Steve Tasker as well but the naysayers of special teams play always poo poo his achievements.

[Rocky]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

Jim Marshall --- Borderliner Charles Haley --- Yes Doug Williams --- Are you kidding? No. Pat Tillman --- Wasn't a great player. No. Andre Reed --- Absolutely. One of the greatest receivers of all time. Chris Carter --- Yes. One of the all-time greats. Dermonti Dawson --- Maybe. Phil Simms --- No. He really needed to get a second ring. Sometimes it matters in terms of getting you into the hall, that's just the way it is. His stats were good, but not spectacular enough. Sucks about the injury. I think... Terrell Davis Pat Fischer (perhaps the most slept on DB of all-time). Shannon Sharpe Russ Grimm Ray Guy Randy Grandishar Jerry Kramer Blanton Collier Tom Flores Bill Polian Steve Tasker Kent Hull Dan Reeves Don Coryell Serious Borderliners: Randall Cunningham Andre Rison Ben Coates Jimmy Smith Cliff Branch Mark Duper Richard Dent Chris Doleman L.C. Greenwood Ottis "O.J." Anderson Lester Hayes Jimmy Johnson Ed/Steve Sabol Clyde Simmons Irving Fryar Ricky Watters Roger Craig Harold Carmichael Sterling Sharpe Herschel Walker (His overall numbers as a RB, receiver and return man are stunning). Boomer Esiason Steve Atwater Rod Smith Tiki Barber Keyshawn Johnson Curtis Martin Mike Alstott Lorenzo Neal (will be a borderliner because of his position) Eddie George Brian Mitchell (his numbers are ridiculous as an all-around player) Edgerrin James (he'll get some votes) Steve McNair (posted better stats than Troy Aikman in a number of categories and never had a single great receiver or played with a great team surrounding him). Marty Schottenheimer (but man, what a choker in big games. Always makes a dumb decision). Future HOF'ers: Marshall Faulk Marvin Harrison Tony Gonzalez Randy Moss Tom Brady Peyton Manning Orlando Pace Jonathan Ogden Kurt Warner Hines Ward Jerome Bettis Ty Law Tedi Bruschi Jerry Rice Emmitt Smith Junior Seau Ray Lewis Brian Urlacher Willie McGinest (NFL's all-time Postseason Sack Leader) Ladanian Tomlinson Terrell Owens Issac Bruce Torry Holt Steve Smith (projection) Brett Favre Donovan McNabb Brian Dawkins Champ Bailey Ben Roethlisberger (Projection) Michael Strahan Warren Sapp Ronde Barber Derrick Brooks Adam Vinatieri Ed Reed Bill Cowher Mike Shanahan Mike Holmgren Tony Dungy Bill Parcells Bill Belichick Tom Coughlin (You can't argue against the man's success in building a winner with an expansion team in Jacksonville, and then turning the Giants around and winning the Super Bowl). Diick Vermeil Jeff Fisher (may need a ring) Andy Reid (needs a ring though)

Curtis Martin is in. If he isn't on the first ballot, it's criminal.

Herschel Walker had the worst luck and circumstances of anybody who should be in the HOF but isn't. Besides Eric Dickerson, he was the best RB of the mid to late 80's---in the NFL. We're not even talking about his USFL numnbers.

[Freelance]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocky

Herschel Walker had the worst luck and circumstances of anybody who should be in the HOF but isn't. Besides Eric Dickerson, he was the best RB of the mid to late 80's---in the NFL. We're not even talking about his USFL numnbers.

Did it to himself when he decided to go play in a circus league rather than the NFL initially.

Herschel was extremely overrated in my opinion as a football player. In Dallas, he was criticized widely for not being able to see a hole. He regularly ran into the backs of offensive lineman, while a huge hole was off to the side. Unbelievable athlete, for sure.

[Freelance]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocky

Curtis Martin is in. If he isn't on the first ballot, it's criminal. Herschel Walker had the worst luck and circumstances of anybody who should be in the HOF but isn't. Besides Eric Dickerson, he was the best RB of the mid to late 80's---in the NFL. We're not even talking about his USFL numnbers.

Quote: Originally Posted by TheWatcher

Jim Marshall --- Borderliner Charles Haley --- Yes Doug Williams --- Are you kidding? No. Pat Tillman --- Wasn't a great player. No. Andre Reed --- Absolutely. One of the greatest receivers of all time. Chris Carter --- Yes. One of the all-time greats. Dermonti Dawson --- Maybe. Phil Simms --- No. He really needed to get a second ring. Sometimes it matters in terms of getting you into the hall, that's just the way it is. His stats were good, but not spectacular enough. Sucks about the injury. I think... Terrell Davis Pat Fischer (perhaps the most slept on DB of all-time). Shannon Sharpe Russ Grimm Ray Guy Randy Grandishar Jerry Kramer Blanton Collier Tom Flores Bill Polian Steve Tasker Kent Hull Dan Reeves Don Coryell Serious Borderliners: Randall Cunningham Andre Rison Ben Coates Jimmy Smith Cliff Branch Mark Duper Richard Dent Chris Doleman L.C. Greenwood Ottis "O.J." Anderson Lester Hayes Jimmy Johnson Ed/Steve Sabol Clyde Simmons Irving Fryar Ricky Watters Roger Craig Harold Carmichael Sterling Sharpe Herschel Walker (His overall numbers as a RB, receiver and return man are stunning). Boomer Esiason Steve Atwater Rod Smith Tiki Barber Keyshawn Johnson Curtis Martin Mike Alstott Lorenzo Neal (will be a borderliner because of his position) Eddie George Brian Mitchell (his numbers are ridiculous as an all-around player) Edgerrin James (he'll get some votes) Steve McNair (posted better stats than Troy Aikman in a number of categories and never had a single great receiver or played with a great team surrounding him). Marty Schottenheimer (but man, what a choker in big games. Always makes a dumb decision). Future HOF'ers: Marshall Faulk Marvin Harrison Tony Gonzalez Randy Moss Tom Brady Peyton Manning Orlando Pace Jonathan Ogden Kurt Warner Hines Ward Jerome Bettis Ty Law Tedi Bruschi Jerry Rice Emmitt Smith Junior Seau Ray Lewis Brian Urlacher Willie McGinest (NFL's all-time Postseason Sack Leader) Ladanian Tomlinson Terrell Owens Issac Bruce Torry Holt Steve Smith (projection) Brett Favre Donovan McNabb Brian Dawkins Champ Bailey Ben Roethlisberger (Projection) Michael Strahan Warren Sapp Ronde Barber Derrick Brooks Adam Vinatieri Ed Reed Bill Cowher Mike Shanahan Mike Holmgren Tony Dungy Bill Parcells Bill Belichick Tom Coughlin (You can't argue against the man's success in building a winner with an expansion team in Jacksonville, and then turning the Giants around and winning the Super Bowl). Diick Vermeil Jeff Fisher (may need a ring) Andy Reid (needs a ring though)

.....all those names and not a mention of Drew Pearson?

[Rocky]

Quote: Originally Posted by Freelance

Did it to himself when he decided to go play in a circus league rather than the NFL initially. Herschel was extremely overrated in my opinion as a football player. In Dallas, he was criticized widely for not being able to see a hole. He regularly ran into the backs of offensive lineman, while a huge hole was off to the side. Unbelievable athlete, for sure.

There were no holes in Dallas from about in the late '80's. They had a terrible O-Line then. In fact, Walker was the only real weapon they had on offense period.

He then went to the Vikings, who gave up everything for him, only to have him play in a run and shoot offense. Nonetheless, his all around game was spectacular for that time. He was a very good NFL player. When you add his USFL production, than it's obvious that he's a better football player than half of the guys who are in the HOF.

[AboveTheRim]

Phil Simms needed a Second ring? Buddy Phil Simms has 2 Super Bowl Rings. Phil was a great quarterback (I have seen some of his games on tape, and highlights etc) but I dont think he will get a call from Canton due to his stats. He doesnt really have a legendary Touchdown to Interception ratio, his career passing yards are a tadd bit to low. Personally I believe Phil Simms will be in the group of borderline great players who will end up getting lost in the upcoming classes of players. Just look at TheWatchers post, most of the 70 players he mentioned are better then Simms and will most likely make the Hall before him (If he ever does)

Phil Simms will be remembered as a great quarterback who played for 2 Super Bowl teams, but there is no evidence out there that makes him legendary.