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Old 07-18-2012, 12:58 PM   #211
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Re: Top 5 at each position

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Originally Posted by wwharton
I'm almost glad you posted this so I don't seem like the huge Rondo ***** I've painted myself to be recently, lol.
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They just don't want it as much.
I can't agree with you on here - at least not with all point guards. Most of them - probably - but not other top tier point guards. I just believe they know their roles on their team, and their role isn't to fight for rebounds. Derrick Rose has Noah/Boozer/Asik to go after boards, and if he sees it is a situation in which he knows his team would likely get the rebound, he doesn't need to go after it. And when you are an uptempo PG, it is to your detriment to hang around in the backcourt - you need to push the ball as fast as possible. The best way to do that is to get a head start while getting an outlet pass - we all know passes travel faster than players do (despite what NBA 2K12 might have us believe).

I really doubt a guy like Derrick Rose doesn't want it bad enough - he goes hard with everything he does - I believe he doesn't feel it's his place (as with many other point guards), and it's to the determent to the uptempo game.

And as far as Rondo's offensive boards, who is the the first line of defense if you don't get that offensive board? The Point Guard. Most PG's know their Role is to hang back when a shot goes up in case of a long outlet pass. With Celtic's old guys, Rondo going for Off Rebounds is risking putting Boston's transition defense at a disadvantage (which ironically was the only area that the Celtic's defense was not stellar at).

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Originally Posted by DukeC
2nd Bolded: SHAME ON YOU FOR THAT NONSENSE. I bet you weren't holding it against Steve Nash when he was playing with Amare and a whole team full of 3pt shooters? Would you hold it against Magic Johnson when he was playing with the Showtime Lakers? Or John Stockton? LOL @You trying to make an argument from that.
Steve Nash has proven (repeatedly) he can have role players on his team and make them seem like All-Stars. Rondo has 3 legit all-stars on his team - that were all-stars before they played with Rondo - and none of them have played any better with Rondo than they did without him.

And I'm not comparing Rondo to retired PG's like Stockton or Magic, i'm comparing them to current top point guards, and a couple top pg's come to mind that have't had the chance to assimilate with their current rosters and/or coaches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeC
3rd bolded: Sure, he steals rebounds at times. And?
Meaning let's stop bragging about his triple doubles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DukeC
5th Bolded: You don't watch a lot of Celtic games do you? There is a reason why Rondo is known for being a one man fast break, and that is because he goes and gets the rebound himself.
a) A pass travels faster a dribbling player does. You make your fastbreak "faster" by getting an outlet pass versus getting the rebound (with exception to long rebounds).
b) Who cares if he's a one man fast break? If Duncan passes an outlet pass to Tony Parker, does that make it a "two man fast break"? Why is that even important/relevant? I'm sorry but I don't see how this adds/take away any value

Last edited by iLLosophy; 07-18-2012 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 07-18-2012, 03:09 PM   #212
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Re: Top 5 at each position

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Originally Posted by iLLosophy
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I can't agree with you on here - at least not with all point guards. Most of them - probably - but not other top tier point guards. I just believe they know their roles on their team, and their role isn't to fight for rebounds. Derrick Rose has Noah/Boozer/Asik to go after boards, and if he sees it is a situation in which he knows his team would likely get the rebound, he doesn't need to go after it. And when you are an uptempo PG, it is to your detriment to hang around in the backcourt - you need to push the ball as fast as possible. The best way to do that is to get a head start while getting an outlet pass - we all know passes travel faster than players do (despite what NBA 2K12 might have us believe).

I really doubt a guy like Derrick Rose doesn't want it bad enough - he goes hard with everything he does - I believe he doesn't feel it's his place (as with many other point guards), and it's to the determent to the uptempo game.

And as far as Rondo's offensive boards, who is the the first line of defense if you don't get that offensive board? The Point Guard. Most PG's know their Role is to hang back when a shot goes up in case of a long outlet pass. With Celtic's old guys, Rondo going for Off Rebounds is risking putting Boston's transition defense at a disadvantage (which ironically was the only area that the Celtic's defense was not stellar at).
I agree with you that in general, PGs don't NEED to "want it" when it comes to rebounds. So saying they don't want it as much isn't really a knock on them considering their position... but I don't think it's a knock on Rondo that he does either.

Rondo definitely runs the break also, along with Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Rose, Westbrook. All these guys average between 4 and 5 rebounds a game in general. We also know Jason Kidd made a living off leading the break and has always averaged a healthy amount of boards. I understand what you're saying about the PG being the last line of defense and getting back when shots go up, but I think it's situational. I've argued in the past that Rondo gets too much credit for rebounding bc all the other guys I just mentioned get about the same number. But he does deserve credit for being among them in that regard.
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Old 07-18-2012, 04:17 PM   #213
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Ok this stealing rebounds argument is getting ridiculous.. If you get a rebound you get a rebound, your team gets the ball, if he happens to have 10 of them that's still a double or triple double, perfectly acceptable for anybody to brag about.. Nobody knocked Jason Kidd for it.. Who cares who gets the f***ing rebound anyways? Your team gets the ball lol that's a goooood thing! Why are we even talking about that lol
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Old 07-18-2012, 04:36 PM   #214
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Have you played basketball? If you see a chance to get a rebound you should go get a rebound! You never know when somebody from the other team is going to come flying over your back or diving in from the off side or something.. It's not stealing a rebound from your teammates it's making sure your team gets the rebound and not the other team.. You think your coach cares which player gets the ball as long as your team gets it? Obviously coach Rivers doesn't have a problem with his guards grabbing boards, hes not going to call a time out and complain that he stole that from Bass lol... I'm not saying this to back Rondo, I'm backing any PG or any player at any position with good rebounding numbers.. It's nonsense to think he or any other guard would be hurting his team or being selfish for getting a rebound..
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Old 07-18-2012, 04:46 PM   #215
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When I made my list for PGs I had:

Deron, Rondo, CP3, Westbrook, Rose..

And when I made my comment about Rondo being more versatile defensively I was comparing my list.. I think Deron is very close to being equal with Rondo in that category and Rose and Westbrook obviously have the size and strength to be as versatile defensively as Rondo. But I don't think they are as good defensively as him, that's why I put him ahead of those 2. And CP3 would probably be last to me in the defensive category.
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Old 07-19-2012, 01:07 PM   #216
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Re: Top 5 at each position

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Originally Posted by ojandpizza
When I made my list for PGs I had:

Deron, Rondo, CP3, Westbrook, Rose..

And when I made my comment about Rondo being more versatile defensively I was comparing my list.. I think Deron is very close to being equal with Rondo in that category and Rose and Westbrook obviously have the size and strength to be as versatile defensively as Rondo. But I don't think they are as good defensively as him, that's why I put him ahead of those 2. And CP3 would probably be last to me in the defensive category.
Honestly, CP3 is right there with any of them defensively but definitely can't be considered versatile.
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Old 07-19-2012, 02:16 PM   #217
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I just think CP3's steal numbers tend to inflate how people judge his defensive ability.
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Old 07-19-2012, 02:32 PM   #218
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Re: Top 5 at each position

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Originally Posted by ojandpizza
I just think CP3's steal numbers tend to inflate how people judge his defensive ability.
So do Rondo's. But in both cases it's not like steals just fall in their laps either. In today's game (with the rules and the talent) there really aren't any defensive stalwarts at PGs. Just guys that are better than other guys at the position. CP3 is a very good defensive PG who struggles with bigger assignments who can body him. Considering the position, he doesn't have to worry about that all that often. Defensively, Rondo is the only PG I'd put in a discussion with him (atm... the youngins could knock him down a bit soon, including Westbrook).
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