Kobe Selected as 2008 MVP

23 · 05-07-2008, 02:17 AM

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Originally Posted by HMcCoy


	-Why do you keep bringing up Gasol when the Laker were #1 in the West BEFORE* Gasol got there?*

Easy my man, the Lakers were flailing and playing .500 ball until he got there. They were on their way out of the top 3 until Gasol came.

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	-BTW, without David West, Paul as MVP "wouldn't be possible" either would it? Why does having good teamates only apply to Kobe. I think I've asked this before..help me out here.

Difference is, an All star PF was acquired, he wasn't already there. Let he Hornets acquire an all star PF to go along with the current team (Gasol) in the middle of the season when they were all ready at #1 and they run away with the West by a long shot.

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	-Kobe didn't need a jump in production...he needed less production. His 'jump' was of the "less is more" variety. Please don't just ignore that. Although his contribution didn't come in the form of bigger numbers, PJ and many others have called this his best all-around season as a pro. And there was no "after they proved him wrong" lol...he played unselfishly from day one this year.

I could argue his 02-03 season was better, but that wasn't the point. I think he did very well, we agree on that much. I didnt ignore it, and matter of factly stated it repeatedly.

He slammed his teammates this summer and didn't give them a chance, that's what i meant by proving him wrong. They came out improved from Bynum to Sasha, and that had nothing to do with Kobe.

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	-Another thing about "proved him wrong"...You are right, in hindsight, the Lakers cast is not as bad as advertised. But...were you saying the Lakers roster was built for the top of the West before the season started? Was Kobe? Was anybody, anywhere? Only Kupchak. Before the season the Lakers were universally considered inadequate. Everyone was wrong.

Kupchak stated that they were built to compete over and over in interviews although you may have no heard them, that was his stance that he thinks they have enough. The problem was someone didnt have patience, and I never thought and stated the Lakers sucked that bad, I don't think they were given the chances to grow. A certain someone should have had more patience like they did for him when he was chucking airballs in the playoffs as a youngster. All of that he has to shoot crap was overboard because his team has never been medicocre in offensive efficiancy. It was always the defense that caused LA's collapses.

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	-And since the voting process has always been pathetic, why has this ambiguous criteria thing just now become a major issue for you? I don't recall any complaints in the past...

Are you serious? For the most part it was mosly kobe fans saying it was a joke because Nash was winning the award. I thought that the 2nd year should've been given to LeBron and you know good and well i've said that plenty of times.

The problem this year was all of the flip flopping, using bogus reasoning for one guy and not the other, then coming up with this lifetime achievment garbage. Sorry man, but the voting was a farce this year.

That doesn't mean Kobe wasn't deserving, but you see the voting for yourself.

HMcCoy · 05-07-2008, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KDRE_OS


	Easy my man, the Lakers were flailing and playing .500 ball until he got there. They were on their way out of the top 3 until Gasol came.

On their on their way out of the top 3? Thats pure speculation, bro. A team that was at the top, treads water for 2 weeks while adjusting to playing without their injured big man and 2nd best player while STILL REMAINING NEAR THE TOP = Lakers were guaranteed to flame out until Gasol saved the day? T-Mac was able to keep a young, undermanned squad in the top half after losing his big man, but Kobe and co. were certain to fail after losing theirs? Theres no way to prove it either way, but I disagree.

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	Difference is, an All star PF was acquired, he wasn't already there. Let he Hornets acquire an all star PF to go along with the current team (Gasol) in the middle of the season when they were all ready at #1 and they run away with the West by a long shot.

Didn't the Lakers LOSE a good player also? They lost the most improved young big in the L to injury...and replaced him with another good player. In your "run away with the West by a long shot" scenario, David West would have to go out for the season before you brought in your new guy. The Lakers didn't just add Gasol to the existing #1 team, bro...he was a replacement.

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	I could argue his 02-03 season was better, but that wasn't the point. I think he did very well, we agree on that much. I didnt ignore it, and matter of factly stated it repeatedly. He slammed his teammates this summer and didn't give them a chance, that's what i meant by proving him wrong. They came out improved from Bynum to Sasha, and that had nothing to do with Kobe.

OK, that stands on it's own. KDRE thinks the improvement of the Lakers youngsters had nothing to do with Kobe. Noted.

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	Kupchak stated that they were built to compete over and over in interviews although you may have no heard them, that was his stance that he thinks they have enough. The problem was someone didnt have patience, and I never thought and stated the Lakers sucked that bad, I don't think they were given the chances to grow. A certain someone should have had more patience like they did for him when he was chucking airballs in the playoffs as a youngster. All of that he has to shoot crap was overboard because his team has never been medicocre in offensive efficiancy. It was always the defense that caused LA's collapses.

And, again...you emphasize mean old Kobe not giving those guys a chance...who did give those guys a chance? Link please. All I remember from you is Kupcake this, and Kupcake that last year. You were as down on the Lakers cast as EVERYONE else was. The big story wasn't about Kobe underestimating his guys, it was about how spoiled and silly he was acting about it. No one but Kupchak and the Lakers front office thought these guys could play at this level. Don't make it out like everyone but Kobe could see this season happening.

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	Are you serious? For the most part it was mosly kobe fans saying it was a joke because Nash was winning the award. I thought that the 2nd year should've been given to LeBron and you know good and well i've said that plenty of times. The problem this year was all of the flip flopping, using bogus reasoning for one guy and not the other, then coming up with this lifetime achievment garbage. Sorry man, but the voting was a farce this year.

The criteria has always been lame, man. I have always said that the voting was a farce...and it was YOU among others that argued with me. My, how the tables have turned now that it's Kobe that gets the benefit of this ill-defined award, my friend. What new, bogus reasoning besides the lifetime acheivement theory was their? I don't recall.

Bornindamecca · 05-07-2008, 03:48 AM

This debate is awesome. I don't even have to say anything because HMcCoy has it covered, lol. Good stuff.

There is one small thing--people exaggerated the idea that Kobe was killing his teammates this summer. There was a specific lie at the root of all this that Shaq confirmed is the method of Jerry Buss in leading the franchise. They told Kobe that they'd try to rebuild as fast as possible when they actually had more of a 5-6 year plan in mind. That was why Kobe brought up Bynum in regards to deals that were on the table in past seasons. He saw that as an opportunity to improve the team turned down not because of genuine reasons, but because of a secret long term agenda that involved exploiting his "box office" status while not trying to immediately get a ring.

On the contrary, if you look back two years the party line was very simple. "We have a young team and guys are still trying to learn the triangle." In that respect, patience was being exercised at the time. He blew up this summer, not after one, or even two seasons.

HMcCoy · 05-07-2008, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bornindamecca


	This debate is awesome. I don't even have to say anything because HMcCoy has it covered, lol. Good stuff.

Thanks man. You aint seen nothing...we've been doing this for YEARS, lol.

We have alot of repsect for each others B-ball knowledge, and usually have some great conversations, especially reguarding #24.

23 · 05-07-2008, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HMcCoy


	On their on their way out of the top 3? Thats pure speculation, bro. A team that was at the top, treads water for 2 weeks while adjusting to playing without their injured big man and 2nd best player while STILL REMAINING NEAR THE TOP = Lakers were guaranteed to flame out until Gasol saved the day? T-Mac was able to keep a young, undermanned squad in the top half after losing his big man, but Kobe and co. were certain to fail after losing theirs? Theres no way to prove it either way, but I disagree.

Yes they were on their way out of the top 3 because San Antonio started winning streaks, Houston started their streak and NO ended up at #1 at the half of the season. The Lakers were playing .500 ball and that would've put them out of the top 3 had not they acquired an all star PF.

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	Didn't the Lakers LOSE a good player also? They lost the most improved young big in the L to injury...and replaced him with another good player. In your "run away with the West by a long shot" scenario, David West would have to go out for the season before you brought in your new guy. The Lakers didn't just add Gasol to the existing #1 team, bro...he was a replacement.

All teams suffer from injury one time or another. That's not an excuse. Lamar Odom is a top talent in the league, and LA had the #1 bench in the league. Losing one guy is no excuse. Houston managed to stay top 5, 2 years straight without Yao and the talent dropoff after McGrady is far more significant than the Lakers talent after Kobe.

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	OK, that stands on it's own. KDRE thinks the improvement of the Lakers youngsters had nothing to do with Kobe. Noted.

I would love for you to explain to me how he helped them improve while he blasted them during the summer saying they weren't good enough and trade Bynum.

Losing one guy is no excuse. Houston managed to stay top 5 2 years straight without Yao and the talent dropoff after McGrady is far more significant than the Lakers talent after Kobe.

It's not just me that thinks so, take the quotes from bean himself who knows it, you know it, I know it too. Give credit where it's due, those guys can flat out play and they worked hard, Radman came back in form, Farmar improved, started doing Yoga this summer, Bynum and Kareem worked tirelessly, Fisher brought leadership, Shasha makes his shots in games now (not just practice)

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	And, again...you emphasize mean old Kobe not giving those guys a chance...who did give those guys a chance? Link please. All I remember from you is Kupcake this, and Kupcake that last year. You were as down on the Lakers cast as EVERYONE else was. The big story wasn't about Kobe underestimating his guys, it was about how spoiled and silly he was acting about it. No one but Kupchak and the Lakers front office thought these guys could play at this level. Don't make it out like everyone but Kobe could see this season happening.

Not mean old kobe, just a spoiled non leader. Yep I blasted Kupchak for tradaing off Caron for Kwame and obviously he realized it was a mistake as well. At a point I felt Buss was using Kobe to get the money back he lost when Shaq left and he did and never stopped raising ticket prices.

Im not sure what the "big story" was but I know Kobe wasn't a leader, I know he spent plenty of time ball hogging, I know he took alot of shots to win scoring titles , I know he quit on his team in game 7 against the Suns, and I know he blasted his teammates during the summer after they helped him win those 3 of 4 games. I know they made him change his stance when they showed the organization improvement.

Kupchak in every interview said he thought the team was enough. Of course Bynum was young so they weren't going to trade him and how stupid does Kobe look for asking them for trading the guy who made the team better from the start of the season? Obviously Mitch thought different, and he was right!

I know it hurts but admit it

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	The criteria has always been lame, man. I have always said that the voting was a farce...and it was YOU among others that argued with me. My, how the tables have turned now that it's Kobe that gets the benefit of this ill-defined award, my friend. What new, bogus reasoning besides the lifetime acheivement theory was their? I don't recall.

Yep the criteria was a sham when Malone won it over MJ, It was a sham when LeBron should've won over Nash, likely when TD won over Kidd as well,and its a sham right now.

Difference here is the injection of lifetime achievement, and how using things such as injury benefits one player, and not the other... and the fact that the voting wasn't even close to what it was supposed to be. Again, this is not a knock on bean as you continue to try to make it, because i've had this issue since the talks got down to it with the voters, not the players.

Oh and yeah born, I have plenty of respect for HMC, we agree and don't agree all at once but its fun talking basketball

Cebby · 05-07-2008, 12:57 PM

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	All teams suffer from injury one time or another. That's not an excuse.

So Chris Paul just sucked last year when he couldn't even get his team to the playoffs?

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	Lamar Odom is a top talent in the league, and LA had the #1 bench in the league.

Not only is Odom not a top talent, but a bench of Farmar, Turiaf, Vujacic, and sometimes Radmon and Ariza is not the best bench in the league. Though, I'm assuming for that statement, you're reverting back to the mythical Gasol/Bynum lineup.

Plus, with your whole "adding an All Star" deal, didn't Chris Paul essentially add an All Star with a healthy Peja?

fishepa · 05-07-2008, 12:59 PM

Damn you guys take this serious.

Bornindamecca · 05-07-2008, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishepa


	Damn you guys take this serious.

The funny thing is...take what serious?? The debate is "he won, and he deserved it, but the voting was a farce".

People are seriously debating the MVP qualifications of a player who lead his team in scoring, assists, FTs, 3s made, steals, overall defense, notched the top seed in the West and was second in overall scoring for the whole league. Really?? Really??? Wow.

"I don't mind that he won it, but I don't like *why* he won it."

Come on. Let it go.

Cebby · 05-07-2008, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishepa

05-07-2008, 03:48 AM	#123 (permalink)
Bornindamecca Isomotion Achieved OVR: 39 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 5,009	Re: Kobe Selected as 2008 MVP This debate is awesome. I don't even have to say anything because HMcCoy has it covered, lol. Good stuff. There is one small thing--people exaggerated the idea that Kobe was killing his teammates this summer. There was a specific lie at the root of all this that Shaq confirmed is the method of Jerry Buss in leading the franchise. They told Kobe that they'd try to rebuild as fast as possible when they actually had more of a 5-6 year plan in mind. That was why Kobe brought up Bynum in regards to deals that were on the table in past seasons. He saw that as an opportunity to improve the team turned down not because of genuine reasons, but because of a secret long term agenda that involved exploiting his "box office" status while not trying to immediately get a ring. On the contrary, if you look back two years the party line was very simple. "We have a young team and guys are still trying to learn the triangle." In that respect, patience was being exercised at the time. He blew up this summer, not after one, or even two seasons. __________________ www.nelsonblakeii.deviantart.com Gamertag: Fred Mchale Last edited by Bornindamecca; 05-07-2008 at 03:55 AM.

05-07-2008, 12:59 PM	#127 (permalink)
fishepa Samardo Samuels!! OVR: 50 Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 17,816	Re: Kobe Selected as 2008 MVP Damn you guys take this serious.