"He will be a Hall of Famer someday..."

[NYJets]

Quote: Originally Posted by Blzer

I wasn't even thinking of Bonds when asking about that last post. If you think this entire thread was meant to ultimately be thought of as a defense for Bonds' HOF case... think again.

Well, lets be real, you've tried to discredit Pujols to pump up Bonds for years. And I know it's the internet so even crazy hypothetical situations are fair game to discuss, talking about Pujols sucking for the next 10 years based on 100 at bats is a little much.

[55]

Quote: Originally Posted by jth1331

And he would have more MVP's too if it weren't for some of Bonds' crazy years. Heck, he finished second in MVP voting 4 times, 3rd once.

This.

If anything, steroids have worked against Pujols as opposed to working for him like in Bonds' case.

Quote: Originally Posted by jth1331

One guy I would look at with Pujols is Albert Belle actually. Belle is a guy to me that was absolutely killer of a hitter, but his injuries shortened his career before he could meet the HOF "credentials" voters looked at.

Belle - .296/.369/.564 in 6,676 plate appearances.

Pujols - .326/.418/.611 in 7,551 plate appearances.

Pujols has been clearly better across the board and for a longer period of time.

Plus, all of the accolades that Pujols has (3 MVPs, 2 Rings, RotY, etc.) and Belle doesn't.

[Blzer]

Quote: Originally Posted by NYJets

Well, lets be real, you've tried to discredit Pujols to pump up Bonds for years. And I know it's the internet so even crazy hypothetical situations are fair game to discuss, talking about Pujols sucking for the next 10 years based on 100 at bats is a little much.

Never tried to discredit Pujols, but I indeed wanted to know why Pujols would get credit in certain places (you may call it the same thing, but it really isn't).

Pujols was only an example because he already has HOF-like career numbers, and he currently is in some kind of a slump. I could have thrown any name out there, but he's in the perfect situation (especially since people say this exact quote about him). We can talk about anybody that you'd like, or simply negate the real world situation and just call out the scenario at hand in a general sense.

[CMH]

Quote: Originally Posted by 55

Career line of .326/.418/.611 Three players have a higher career slugging percentage: Babe Ruth, Ted Williams and Lou Gehrig. Five players have a higher career OPS: Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Barry Bonds and Jimmie Foxx. That's it. He's a stone cold lock for the HoF already no matter what the future holds.

Well, career lines have a tendency to, you know, drop as players get older. I haven't looked but I'm sure with exception to Barry Bonds and probably Lou Gehrig (who died before getting a chance to see a decline), each of the names above saw their lines drop as they got older.

Now how much can it drop? Probably not much so I think my point is mostly moot. I'm just bringing it up that it's unfair to compare a younger player's career line to a player who had 15-20 years of baseball to see his numbers decline at the wrong end of 30.

Pujols probably doesn't retire with a .611 slugging percentage. I'd probably be shocked if his career slugging even finishes above .600. Seriously. It's already dropped .006 because of his slow start in Los Angeles. .006! That's obviously a huge drop from a very bad start, but also consider that his career is so short right now (he still has another career of years ahead of him with the contract he signed) that .006 and more can drop over 10 years with no problem.


Anyway, to answer Blzer's question: I hate it. And it's funny because I was just thinking about this the other day. "Future Hall of Famer..." Like how do you really know? Things change. Especially when a guy is so young. Pujols may be on the wrong end of 30, but he still has another 10 years of baseball, at least (barring any freak injuries ending his career earlier). 10 years! That's a lot of baseball for things to go freakishly wrong.

That being said, Pujols is a great hitter and great hitters don't stop knowing how to hit. Great hitters become good hitters. And good hitters are already in the HOF discussion.

[12]

In my mind, it doesn't matter how Pujols finishes up his career.

He's been the elite of the elite for a decade. That deserves Hall of Fame enshrinement. His first 10 years in the league and his stat line scream first ballot Hall of Fame inductee to me. What he did and sustained through consistency year in and year out is amazing in itself.

I love baseball but admittedly do not understand most of the new metric stats, but I know that opposing pitchers had the fear of God put in them when Pujols came to the plate, especially in a CLUTCH situation.

Best pure hitter of my time regardless of his early season struggles this year. I'll predict that he still hits .285+ with 30 bombs and 100 RBI's. He's way behind the eight-ball on that, but watch it happen. Next year, he'll be mashing again to the tune of .300+ and the usual 30/100 line. Like clockwork for at least the next few years.

And I'm not a Pujols or Angels fan, rather just someone who appreciates greatness and that's what he's been.

[12]

A guy like Raul Ibanez, who can't even sniff Pujols' jock in terms of career accomplishments, is 39 and still playing pretty decent baseball offensively. Yet the most consistent hitter of our time has a first bad month of the season at 32, and people are saying he's done, he'll never be the same, etc... That's not happening here at OS, but I've read and heard way too much of that crazy talk.

Sorry for getting the thread off track, but I just found that kind of amusing.

[CMH]

Quote: Originally Posted by Apostle

A guy like Raul Ibanez, who can't even sniff Pujols' jock in terms of career accomplishments, is 39 and still playing pretty decent baseball offensively. Yet the most consistent hitter of our time has a first bad month of the season at 32, and people are saying he's done, he'll never be the same, etc... That's not happening here at OS, but I've read and heard way too much of that crazy talk. Sorry for getting the thread off track, but I just found that kind of amusing.

I was about to say: "No one said that!" And then you said we haven't and I was like "cool."

Anyone that thinks he's done is being ridiculous and we know that.

Now it's possible he won't be a .340 40 home run guy again. Possible. But it's not like he's super old and depleted from injuries.

I still think he was putting too much pressure on himself to perform to his contract. He can say he wasn't, but I think it's something you try to ignore and it still happens.


Sent from my mobile device.

[SaluteYourShorts21]

Quote: Originally Posted by Blzer

I take offense to this. If a player puts up a good pace of numbers that he is expected to do (with a decline, sure), then I understand what they're going for with their saying, provided that the player lasts the number of years they expect as well. So I kind of have two questions here: 1) Can you discredit a player at all for having a prolonging lackluster stint in his career, especially on the back nine? 2) If not, can [a player] retire today and be considered a Hall of Famer? Or does a certain amount of longevity come into play with the accolades, regardless of the numbers he puts up down the line?

It seems like this thread is more about Pujols than the generalized thought of a given player and the player's potential HOF credentials. 2 players came to mind with your question / points...

1) Scottie Pippen
2) Barry Sanders

Different sports, of course, but both fit your criteria and both are in the HOF and rightfully so. I know it's a bit of an extreme perspective but the entire body of work and the player's impact on the game should be considered most with the HOF, at least in my perspective. That may be why Tim Raines isn't in and Ron Santo getting "snubbed" until his death.

To expound, as I said earlier, on the generalization about the "...one day he'll be a HOF" talk, I feel an intriguing player is Johnny Damon...good player, all-star couple of times, extremely durable but I don't feel he was a top 10 player in his league at any time of his career.

[Blzer]

Quote: Originally Posted by Apostle

A guy like Raul Ibanez, who can't even sniff Pujols' jock in terms of career accomplishments, is 39 and still playing pretty decent baseball offensively. Yet the most consistent hitter of our time has a first bad month of the season at 32, and people are saying he's done, he'll never be the same, etc... That's not happening here at OS, but I've read and heard way too much of that crazy talk. Sorry for getting the thread off track, but I just found that kind of amusing.

I don't recall a single person ever saying that, unless it's in the 2012 Angels thread (a thread which doesn't exist).

EDIT: Wait, now I see how you said it. Either way, this thread isn't about Pujols. He is an example who could be made about his current situation.

[jth1331]

Quote: Originally Posted by SaluteYourShorts21

It seems like this thread is more about Pujols than the generalized thought of a given player and the player's potential HOF credentials. 2 players came to mind with your question / points... 1) Scottie Pippen 2) Barry Sanders Different sports, of course, but both fit your criteria and both are in the HOF and rightfully so. I know it's a bit of an extreme perspective but the entire body of work and the player's impact on the game should be considered most with the HOF, at least in my perspective. That may be why Tim Raines isn't in and Ron Santo getting "snubbed" until his death. To expound, as I said earlier, on the generalization about the "...one day he'll be a HOF" talk, I feel an intriguing player is Johnny Damon...good player, all-star couple of times, extremely durable but I don't feel he was a top 10 player in his league at any time of his career.

I really hope Damon doesn't get the 270 something hits he needs for 3,000, I don't want to see that guy in the HOF.


Also, I want to throw a name out there now to think about. Josh Hamilton. Do people think he can stay healthy enough, and finish his career with enough stats to warrant HOF discussion? Personally, I don't think his body holds up, but maybe he can play longer, albeit not as many games per year.