Effectively Utilizing the 3-3-5 Mustang Defense

[PioneerCoach5]

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Back off topic again (I tend to do that a lot), has anyone taken any 4-3 team (eg. Broncos, Bears, Panthers, etc.) and made a successful conversion to a 3-4? I've been trying to do that with the Broncos for months now (not in my current dynasty mind you), looking at their 2009 rosters and how McDaniel's managed to do this with varying success. I moved Elvis Dumervil, Jarvis Moss, and Tim Crowder to ROLB, LOLB, and RILB respectively with D.J. Williams sliding to LILB. I also moved Marcus Thomas to LE, drafted Athyba Rubin (his properly spelled name mind you) as a NT, and slid Alvin McKinley to RE. All their philosophies were 3-4, but I too had varying success. The way I understand an actual NFL conversion goes something like this: 4-3 DE's move out to become 3-4 OLB's, some 4-3 DT's (if say they're 6'2"-6'4" and 290-315 lbs) slide outside and become 3-4 DE's, and those monstrous DT's stay inside and are NT's. Here's where I'm confused a little: the Broncos had Dumervil (5'11" 240ish) at that OLB spot and look at what he did; conversely, the Broncos also drafted an established 4-3 DE in Robert Ayers (6'4" 275) and asked him to do the same but wasn't as successful. For comparison's sake, D.J. Williams (a rather established 4-3 OLB for the Broncos) was also moved to ILB and also saw his production slip a little. My confusion: when making these changes is it best to have a smaller speed rusher on the outside, or a bigger guy like DeMarcus Ware or Shawne Merriman? As seen with the Bills' Aaron Maybin, some guys can't go from a 3-point stance to a 2 point stance for one reason or another; whereas with Dumervil some guys can. So a little help with this 4-3 to 3-4 switch would be helpful as I'm sure there's some info in the forums, but I'm not about to search hundreds upon thousands of posts.

Just to be honest, I've rarely seen the conversion work as it does in real life. The fact of the matter is that more and more colleges are moving to a spread offense, which forces defenses to adjust personnel in order to properly defend them. This has led to the development of the undersized speed rusher playing Defensive End in college and then being converted to play an Outside Linebacker in the NFL. The issue with this is simply that most of the technique a player develops for playing football is established at the collegiate level, and then expounded upon once the player enters the pros. Head Coach 09 doesn't account for this directly, but I've yet to see a player converted from Defensive End to a 3-4 Outside Linebacker and have a significant increase in potential. Now, this might be due to my limited experience with running specific defenses, but I just don't see it very often. I have seen massive increases to Overall and Potential when an Outside Linebacker is converted to an Undersized/Speed Rush Defensive End, but that is to be expected as the game vastly overvalues the Defensive End position. Don't get me wrong, I certainly see the importance, but I'm a Defensive Backs guy. It just rubs me the wrong way to see a Defensive Lineman getting paid over $10 Million a year, while my boys in the back are lucky to get half that. Anyway, off topic.

One can usually see a small increase in stats from guys like Elvis Dumervil, and the like, but it doesn't seem as if they will ever match their potential from the Undersized/Speed Rush Defensive End position.

Continuing on your train of thought, Only some Defensive Tackles can make the conversion to Defensive End. It doesn't really have anything to do with size. The Defensive End position (more often than not, in any scheme) tends to be more based on finesse and technique, whereas the Nose Tackle is used to absorb a double-team and keep the line of scrimmage stationary. Now, as I said before, I'm a Defensive Back guy. My views are not perfect. Generally, you find limitations to the 3-4 Outside Linebacker position in games. Mainly, this is due to the fact that the game fails to define a Strong and Weak side; therefore, the positions of Will and Sam are lost, even though their responsibilities make them completely different positions. Typically, the pass rush comes from the defensive right side, but that is not always the case. Essentially, you would need to draft stellar prospects at both Outside Linebacker positions in order to have any worthwhile success.

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Ah good to know. I guess I'll have to find another option for the pass rushing outside linebacker option. Not much there in the 2008 draft.

Not for that particular position, no. I think the easiest thing would be to go after a guy like Manny Lawson (49ers, former college DE), or maybe AJ Hawk (Another former college DE). They are established guys, but they should be fairly cheap to come by and would probably suffice until someone better shows up.

[kcarr]

Beyond Avril i don't know who else to suggest. i think maybe Angelo Craig if i remember right may be decent but fragile. can't remember for sure my verdict on him though. shown cable has the rush moves but is not near as athletic as Avril and i have never tried him. i know mayo has the speed and is a hard hitter but i don't know about his pass rushing. gholston can be good as a rush backer if used right as can many fast DEs butter lack the coverage skills to get by every down

[kcarr]

Quote: Originally Posted by PioneerCoach5

Just to be honest, I've rarely seen the conversion work as it does in real life. The fact of the matter is that more and more colleges are moving to a spread offense, which forces defenses to adjust personnel in order to properly defend them. This has led to the development of the undersized speed rusher playing Defensive End in college and then being converted to play an Outside Linebacker in the NFL. The issue with this is simply that most of the technique a player develops for playing football is established at the collegiate level, and then expounded upon once the player enters the pros. Head Coach 09 doesn't account for this directly, but I've yet to see a player converted from Defensive End to a 3-4 Outside Linebacker and have a significant increase in potential. Now, this might be due to my limited experience with running specific defenses, but I just don't see it very often. I have seenmassive increases to Overall and Potential when an Outside Linebacker is converted to an Undersized/Speed Rush Defensive End, but that is to be expected as the game vastly overvalues the Defensive End position. Don't get me wrong, I certainly see the importance, but I'm a Defensive Backs guy. It just rubs me the wrong way to see a Defensive Lineman getting paid over $10 Million a year, while my boys in the back are lucky to get half that. Anyway, off topic. One can usually see a small increase in stats from guys like Elvis Dumervil, and the like, but it doesn't seem as if they will ever match their potential from the Undersized/Speed Rush Defensive End position. Continuing on your train of thought, Only some Defensive Tackles can make the conversion to Defensive End. It doesn't really have anything to do with size. The Defensive End position (more often than not, in any scheme) tends to be more based on finesse and technique, whereas the Nose Tackle is used to absorb a double-team and keep the line of scrimmage stationary. Now, as I said before, I'm a Defensive Back guy. My views are not perfect. Generally, you find limitations to the 3-4 Outside Linebacker position in games. Mainly, this is due to the fact that the game fails to define a Strong and Weak side; therefore, the positions of Will and Sam are lost, even though their responsibilities make them completely different positions. Typically, the pass rush comes from the defensive right side, but that is not always the case. Essentially, you would need to draft stellar prospects at both Outside Linebacker positions in order to have any worthwhile success. Not for that particular position, no. I think the easiest thing would be to go after a guy like Manny Lawson (49ers, former college DE), or maybe AJ Hawk (Another former college DE). They are established guys, but they should be fairly cheap to come by and would probably suffice until someone better shows up.

if you are expecting a huge potential jump there you are going to be disappointed. that is basically using the same primary ratings, speed rush ends and blitz lbs, and you are adding coverage to the equation. defensive ends often have a 10 rating in coverage and never have great ratings so you aren't going to see a jump there. what you are looking for is just a guy who is capable of playing the position and those are out there.
to find your guy here search des available by their coverage ratings. the obey real problem is in the draft you get no indication of this. one strange thing that i found doing this search with free agents year one is a kid named Andrew Hoffman who is near 300 pound and has 95 finesse moves and 85 on both coverage ratings but no athletic ability.

as for moving tackles out to end i have had a lot of success here. obviously you still are not looking for a huge potential boost but you are looking for guys who will in the game push the o-line back plugging the running lanes and who will sometimes get a pass rush.
For the top end ones look for a decent finesse moves rating to go along with block shedding, strength, and power moves

[kcarr]

I looked into it crable could be very good. he has great rushing moves, probably 2nd to only rivers for lbs in this class. mayo is good but has injury problems. Mark Johnson is a great athlete and pass rusher .

[msuboy11]

Justin smith at le, Amobi Okoye at Re, and Athya Rubin at DT. Going to probably have to save and reload a lot to get smith, but he is worth it. Through 3 games, he has 6 or 7 sacks. Not to mention he tackles everyone! His overall grade his higher than his potential right now, which is 91. He also has great personality! Have Bobby Carpenter, Aj Hawk, and Phillip Wheeler at linebackers. Ding good! Have Fred Bennet, but really no one else at CB. Trade for Marvin White, then switch him to SS. He can be good starter, but grab Kenny Philips n 1st round(I got him at 27) then you have the 2 great SS, and both have great personalities, and are cheap! Justin Smith is absolutely neccasary for this defense though!

[JimK]

The answer to the question about 4-3 to 3-4 is fairly complicated in real life. One reason is that people don't realize that there are different systems of 3-4. For example, the Patriots play a two-gapping scheme in which the DEs are basically DTs--huge 300 pounders whose job is to stuff the run and occupy blockers. The Steelers also play a 3-4, but it is very different. In that system the DEs play one-gap, and even drop into coverage on occasion! So their DEs are a little smaller and more athletic. An OLB in the Patriots system has to be truly versatile--he'll find himself dropping into coverage at least as often as he is rushing the QB. On the other hand, in Dallas DeMarcus Ware is more or less a LB in name only, as he is pass rushing on virtually every play.

At any rate, as concerns the game, I consider the 3-4 broken. One reason is that the concept of a single, huge defensive linemen occupying multiple blockers--e.g. Wilfork and Ngata--doesn't exist in the game. It never takes more than one blocker to block a defensive player. This pretty much destroys the run-stopping strategy of the 3-4 and turns the strength of a two-gapping 3-4 into a weakness. Your ILBs are left taking on guards on every play, leaving you to wonder why you didn't just pick 4-3 so you had DTs taking on the guards.

The second major problem is in converting college DEs to OLBs. Every defensive lineman automatically has a 10 coverage rating no matter how athletic he is. It's not like in real life where you can scout a guy and say "he's athletic enough to drop into coverage" and you train him up from there. Instead, every defensive lineman is incapable of coverage, period. This is largely overcome by the fact that you can just draft a 240 pound linebacker and play him at OLB in the 3-4 because size actually has no effect on the game. But that destroys the immersion factor for me.

There are other issues with the 3-4 in the game, but this post is already long enough. We can discuss it further if anyone is interested.

[Aurabolt127]

I love the 335, and in addition to your SS - which I actually got 3 studs for basically nothing to start my career off (this first time was with a 4-3 team I took over in 2008 that I wanted to convert to 335 - the vikings for those keeping score) (I'll list the SSs below so people who aren't familiar don't get something spoiled or handed to them) but the OLBs are hugely important. Speed kills. The ability to cover is important too. Honestly, there are several guys in the 08 draft who have like 90 speeds - some that rush well like Avril, and some that cover like LaRoque. In fact, LaRoque was my backup OLB I would sub in to obviously passing downs for my MLB because his coverage and speed are both really high for a LB. (and my original MLB was hurt and it was tough finding a replacement that I wanted to use in coverage anyway) LaRoque had 6 INTs by season end - pretty dang good for a backup OLB playing MLB!

So for the SS's if you need them cheap and right away...

you can trade for Bernard Pollard from the Chiefs for a 5th rounder mosttimes and in UDFA get Barrett and Horton (one's listed as a FS, move him) they have great speed and high-mid 80s potential as run support SSs) Or just keep on at FS if you need one. If you draft late you can get Phillips at FS or SS too. The advantage of the playbook is also in the size of it, so rookies can learn it fast and not be a huge liability. By the end of the first year, you'll have more high rated Safeties than you know what to do with! Also, resigning the UDFAs are cheap...

Also, like any formation with 3 DLs, make sure they can tackle and have strength. If your DT doesn't have a super high tackle score, runs up the gut are gonna get you, esp if it's someone line Shaun Alexander coming. A high hit power is nice too, esp on backs that like to fumble.

Anyway, hope you'll have fun with it - that and the 4-2-5 are by far my favorite defenses in the game...

[Byron Yatch]

Used to love running the 335 mustang but I got real tired of a couple things. trying to find 3 dominant dl that wont just open holes for the lbs but get sacks themselves. I also grew weary of the cbs being switched in that system. The 1 is on the left and the 2 is on the right. Thats because SS1 is on the right and SS2 is on the left(to strengthen both sides at diffent levels). FS is in the middle of course playing a true center field role. AND Both ss need man coverage skills(press and cvr), not just zone! If they arent blitzing they're man covering when you arent playing zone.

I mean as long as you understand these key principles, its okay. Next time I decide to run it, i'll prolly get Xavier cox or something just to make sure I can get pressure from the RE.

Its by no means a bad defense, won me several superbowls and perfect seasons with great staffs and rosters. It just got old, same with the 46 and the 3-4. I always end up back with the 4-3, either cover 2 sprinkling in man cvr 3&4 and blitzes or vice versa(man blitz with a lil zone here and there to keep em honest). I like having 4 big hogs on the line at all times though, rather than 3 and an extra linebacker at all times...

Still gotta try that 326 playbook onetime(maybe next), but I gotta find the best path for CBs then! Also wanna use the 425 sooner or later.

[Aurabolt127]

Yeah, with any 3 DL defense, the Dlineman aren't there for the sacks, though the right guy like Ngata or Calais Campbell will get some just because they're pretty dominant.... I absolutely love the 4-2-5! Haven't messed with the 3-2-6 - I just get the feeling teams will run right over that, esp with a stud back. Maybe I'll do a "coach now" game with it or something to see, but I dunno.

[mrs844224]

Has anyone seen a CPU coach running the 3-3-5? I think most of the coaches that do run the playbook never get hired as HC's.