Big Step Ahead - OL/DL Interaction

[rudyjuly2]

While many people will argue over the good and bad in the NCAA franchise, I do think the foundation is there to have a great football game next year. A lot of the issues I see can be fixed with small tweaks and/or just boosting sliders.

But the one thing that needs an overhall is the OL/DL interaction. Without getting into a 2K vs. EA debate, I always felt the two major areas where 2K did a great job were presentation and OL/DL interaction. The presentation in NCAA is pretty good and hopefully we'll get halftime and postgame shows next year as well. But the OL/DL interaction is really poor.

We don't see a true pocket formed, we don't have many controls over our DL (rip, swim, spin, etc.) and players seem to wrestle Tecmo style (suction block) more than they should. Playing as a DL in 2K4 or 2K5 was much more fun than NCAA '09. That's why I normally just play as a LB. I know Greg at NCAA Strategies talked about how they are really working on giving players more DL controls for the next game which is a great sign. But I'd really like to see them implement a blocking engine, similar to the 2K games, where a DE can slide off an OT on an outside rush without just sticking to him. I think that's the one area that will need a lot of work and not tweaks for the future.

[LBzrule]

Yeah and I even hate playing LB in these games. Still can't do much except for run away from the linemen and hope they don't get you so you can make a tackle. You cannot plan to take them on or else you are out of the play. The thing we all need to take into account is that OL vs DL is a big undertaking and even if they start on it this year, If they are really going to make a thorough sweep, it is going to take them quite a few cycles to get everything in. Not only do they have to work on animations, run blocking, but then getting real protections in, Combo pass blocking, then work on Olinemen passing defenders off (which was 2ks next move in the Oline fixing progression, which would have been 2k9, it shows a little bit in 2k8).

[noplace]

I just posted in the wishlist thread about how OL/DL interaction would improve this game by leaps & bounds. Its the key to taking NCAA & Madden to the next level but it seems EA doesnt want to reprogram the line play. If anything add animations on passing downs that will send the DE's up field & Keep QB's in the pocket. Also something needs to be done about the ratings & DT play. DT get no push even if they are way more talented than the OG in front of them.

[rudyjuly2]

Furthermore, weight has to be a bigger factor in the ratings of players. There should be a penalty for trying to play a 220 pound DE in a 3-4 defense. Bigger is better in football and they need to factor this in more. Right now I think it's largely irrelevant.

I can't remember but has EA finally instituted a pass rush rating for defensive players? Instincts vs. the run and vs. rushing the passer are two different things that need to be identified properly. They have pass block and run block ratings for OL, what about the defense?

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by rudyjuly2

Furthermore, weight has to be a bigger factor in the ratings of players. There should be a penalty for trying to play a 220 pound DE in a 3-4 defense. Bigger is better in football and they need to factor this in more. Right now I think it's largely irrelevant. I can't remember but has EA finally instituted a pass rush rating for defensive players? Instincts vs. the run and vs. rushing the passer are too different things that need to be identified properly. They have pass block and run block ratings for OL, what about the defense?

Well, bigger isn't better in a general sense, but in specific areas, like the one you name it is. Now take that 220/230 lb DE an move him to a 4-3 defense as a pass rush specialist now he has the advantage. And nope, no pass rush rating, although my thread in the Madden forum pushes for them to add one, BUT only if it is going to make a difference in the way guys rush the passer.

[youALREADYknow]

Quote: Originally Posted by rudyjuly2

Furthermore, weight has to be a bigger factor in the ratings of players. There should be a penalty for trying to play a 220 pound DE in a 3-4 defense. Bigger is better in football and they need to factor this in more. Right now I think it's largely irrelevant. I can't remember but has EA finally instituted a pass rush rating for defensive players? Instincts vs. the run and vs. rushing the passer are too different things that need to be identified properly. They have pass block and run block ratings for OL, what about the defense?

There is no need for additional defensive line ratings since EA already has the ratings necessary to create realistic defensive line abilities.

Power Move + Strength + Acceleration = Bull rush, power swim/rip move, etc
Finesse Move + Agility + Block Shedding = Spin move, speed rush on corner, etc
Speed + Pursuit + Tackling = Chasing down the QB

EA has just failed at getting the in-game ratings to have significance due to the limitations by the animation platform. If my HB can break in/out of an animation, then the OL/DL interaction should naturally follow IMO. It is not an ideal solution, but it's at least a step in the right direction.

The ideal solution would be if OL and DL actually used their hands and arms to block and break blocks instead of the suction blocking that occurs now. There should never be a "stickiness" to blocking.

[noplace]

The key is getting the ratings to actually make a difference. Right now the only rating that seems to work is speed.

[rudyjuly2]

Quote: Originally Posted by youALREADYknow

There is no need for additional defensive line ratings since EA already has the ratings necessary to create realistic defensive line abilities.

I disagree. Just having great quickness or strength doesn't make you a great pass rusher. You've got Top 10 guys from the 2007 draft like Gaines Adams and Jamaal Anderson who have combined for 6 sacks. Then a 2nd round pick like Lamarr Woodley has 9.5 sacks but was dropped down most draft boards because he wasn't fast enough. Why? Because there is an instinct or a feel to rushing the passer. Certainly being quick and fast helps but there is a technique as well. Plus I do think having ratings would better identify linebackers that should be packaged as DEs in passing situations.

I think of the ability to rush the passer as being similar to being a good low post player in basketball. Some guys are good at it and other guy's aren't despite having very similar skills. There is a "feel" to it that goes beyond physical abilities.

[therizing02]

Good thread Rudy. I agree with the majority of the points here because this is one the most disturbing problems with the game.

I use Ohio State in my OD and my defense(rated 99) regularly gives up 400 yards passing. In a game this year (season 4) against FSU I lost 56-49 and gave up 517 yards passing. The FSU QB was 33-38 and threw 3 interceptions.

Same game last year he was 22-25 and in a game against Oregon, my opponent went 11 for 11. All because I can't get a pass rush because of the suction blocking and worse yet, the stupid decision by an EA producer to go with "Wide Open Gameplay" as back of the box feature.

I've tried every defensive formation and cannot generate a pass rush because 90+ rated defenders keep getting pancaked or sucked in.

Couple the lack of pass rush with HORRIBLE CPU playcalling and I think I've had enough. My online dynasty, while entertaining with a good group of players, has become a cheesefest. Not that the players aren't playing straight up, but we have people scoring 80-90 points against the CPU because of the offense oriented game.

I'm hoping for a complete overhaul of this aspect of the game but I doubt that the NCAA team will put forth the effort considering they share resources with Madden.

[youALREADYknow]

Quote: Originally Posted by rudyjuly2

I disagree. Just having great quickness or strength doesn't make you a great pass rusher. You've got Top 10 guys from the 2007 draft like Gaines Adams and Jamaal Anderson who have combined for 6 sacks. Then a 2nd round pick like Lamarr Woodley has 9.5 sacks but was dropped down most draft boards because he wasn't fast enough. Why? Because there is an instinct or a feel to rushing the passer. Certainly being quick and fast helps but there is a technique as well. Plus I do think having ratings would better identify linebackers that should be packaged as DEs in passing situations. I think of the ability to rush the passer as being similar to being a good low post player in basketball. Some guys are good at it and other guy's aren't despite having very similar skills. There is a "feel" to it that goes beyond physical abilities.

The instinct that you are talking about is what the "skill" ratings were designed for. They just don't work.

Power Move and Finesse Move should hold weight on their own and play a major role in defining a player's skill in the OL/DL interaction. The same applies for Block Shedding and Pursuit. They just need to impact the animations.