2012 OSFM: Pittsburgh Pirates

[GoBucs09]

Quote: Originally Posted by eman11

I like Marte a lot, BUT, there's a lot of debate over whether he'll be a star or a 4th outfielder due to his walk rate. I just couldn't justify an A, especially since he's in AAA, but certainly wouldn't argue if that's what everybody goes with.

Heh yeah that knock is funny, the one thing people don't like about him is that he doesn't walk alot. Look at his average though, it's pretty good. That and his SO rate isn't unusual for a younger player means he has a very good grasp of the strike zone but is able to get to more pitches than the average player. If he keeps it up in Indy, he's definetly an A, if not then he's a B.

He hit .315 in Bradenton in just 200+ at bats in 2010, then last year he hits .332 in Altoona which is a big jump from A+ to AA. Here's a crazy stat for you, in 5 minor league seasons so far, Marte has a better On Base Percentage and Slugging Percentage than Andrew McCutchen did in his 5 minor league seasons.

[BatsareBugs]

Quote: Originally Posted by Qb

To clarify something for Joshize, while potential grades display as only a letter with no plus or minus, many believe the potential description in the player card tells us more. The best example I can think of without searching is "Gobs of talent, should make a terrific regular," which is for C-potential and sure sounds better than some of the other C descriptions.

Just to add, that description used to be for a B-potential position player. A C potential is already a MLB-level starting position player, a pitcher in the rotation, or a bullpen pitcher. However they are considered average and could hold down the position if you wanted, but you can definitely do better.

By the way, I'll throw my hat in a vouch for Alex Dickerson to a B-.

[eman11]

Quote: Originally Posted by GoBucs09

Heh yeah that knock is funny, the one thing people don't like about him is that he doesn't walk alot. Look at his average though, it's pretty good. That and his SO rate isn't unusual for a younger player means he has a very good grasp of the strike zone but is able to get to more pitches than the average player. If he keeps it up in Indy, he's definetly an A, if not then he's a B. He hit .315 in Bradenton in just 200+ at bats in 2010, then last year he hits .332 in Altoona which is a big jump from A+ to AA. Here's a crazy stat for you, in 5 minor league seasons so far, Marte has a better On Base Percentage and Slugging Percentage than Andrew McCutchen did in his 5 minor league seasons.

I definitely hope you're right, because his tools are exceptional. He does appear to make great contact, and the reports on him aren't that he's really a free swinger, but it's just hard for me to envision him sustaining a .325+ BA on a year to year basis, because there's maybe 1% of major leaguers you can count on that from.

The power surge last year was huge for his prospect status, especially off of the hamate injury, but he still is more of a top of the order guy, so a big OBP that's comprised of more than BA would be great. I'd feel more confident in his ability to keep a monster OBP if he had more walks, that's all.

Also not sure it's completely apples to apples comparing him to Cutch. Marte was 22 in AA last year...Cutch made his MLB debut at age 22. Not to mention, he's only 2 months younger than Jose Tabata so it's not like he's THAT advanced in terms of age or development compared to past guys.

Like I said, wouldn't argue with an A because his tools are absolutely outstanding, just not sure he'll be a superstar unless he can produce a great OBP, and a better walk rate would make me more confident of that. That was my reasoning for a high B.

[joshize]

@tree3five Actually, Jarek Cunningham is the #20 prospect according to pirates site.

I could agree with most of your suggestions. I still think Rudy Owens is better and will be in the majors. If a minor leaguer is a C in this game.. he'll never make the MLB roster. The ratings are too messed up.

Is there any way to mess with potential on this year's game? When you're creating someone? I'd like to create people will certain potentials. ie, if Jeff Locke or Jared Hughes is lower than a B, I would like to recreate them. But I don't want them to be A's, ya know? Still, I'm excited to see them become a part of the Buccos pitching staff.

@GoBucs09
First off, Pittsburgh has latched onto Mike McKenry because he's a Pittsburgh style player. He plays hard and he's the underdog. Pirate fans love that. Even though he struggles at the dish, the city and the manager are big fans of his. Barajas iss the low average, high power player like you explain Fox. So yes, if something happens to one of those two, Fox would be an option. Considering Sanchez won't be ready and Fryer isn't doing well. Either way, it would be a decision based on how long one of those two catchers would be away from the club. Because somehow they will have to alter the 40 man roster to get another catcher on it. BUT.. Jake Fox will more than likely not be on the team unless something happens to one of them.
As for Nick Evans, (sigh), I'd rather see Matt Hague given a chance considering he's already on the 40 man roster and, like you said, his time is running out to be given chances.

I thought they were moving Allie to the bullpen. Maybe I read the scouting report wrong then. My mistake. As a starter, I doubt him more than as a closer. I'd prefer to see him in the bullpen because we have so many great future starters.

As far as Grossman, by coming out of nowhere I just mean in talks about outfielders. Since the current Pirates left the minors it's been all about Starling Marte. I guess there's really no point in fussing over another outfielder because McCutchen and Tabata won't leave anyone's franchise if you're playing with PIT. Left field is open, but not if Marte is an A.

Thanks for clearing up the systems. I'm a die hard Pirates fan so I look a lot up beyond the Top 100 and Top 20. For most other teams, I don't spend much time beyond that unless something sparks my interest. I've always seen the TV networks and websites give the Pirates a lot of credit with their farm system. Maybe I'm getting the numbers confused with their programs outside of the US. I guess we'll be seeing this year and next how good San Diego's and Seattle's systems are.. they need to make some changes.

I'm fine with Correia not making it. I agree with everyone about Correia! Honestly! I'm not sold on him. But the way everyone talks I just don't see him having much trouble making the rotation. Maybe our rotations on The Show... but the real team, he'll more than likely be there. What we want and what happens isn't always the same. (or else Jason Kendall would still be a Pirate. haha)

I'm looking forward to Bedard pitching. I hope he pans out. As Hurdle said, "He's a swing and miss guy and we don't have much of that right now." But it seems that MLB Network and some Pirate writers don't think he's a lock in. So I'm mostly going off of what they think. Either way, it's nice to have debate's on who's the worst instead of who is actually good enough.

@eman11
I guess my opinion is that the Top 100 should all be A's. According to the way this game's ratings are. Even some A's don't surface into the MLB until they are 31 years old. After 5 years of the franchise, it's unlikely that any ROTY awards are won by players under 30. It takes too long to develop players and such. Too many teams have stinky players playing on their team while good teams have 4 A potential right fielders on the bench and in AAA. Hopefully this year they shop those people instead of shopping Pujols and Reyes in May.

I disagree with the fact that the Pirates only have 5 or 6 highly touted players. Maybe if you ignore the organization like most of ESPN does. They just skip over thinking about the Pirates because of the bad run we've been on for 20 years. I believe we have the right guys doing the right things for now. They'll start to reevaluate things in the next few years.

As far as Marte... it's hard to see.. but the biggest problem with him right now is the outfield in PIT. If we didn't sign McLouth, he'd be that 4th guy. Presley was hot last year and McCutchen and Tabata are who (I believe) we're building this team around. He may play left field if Presley slows down... he may just be the guy who gets us a star at another position via trade. (hopefully 1B) Also, walks come with age.

Matt Hague > Garrett Jones.
Yes, Matt Hague may be average, but that's a step higher than Garrett Jones IMO.

You say you try to avoid A's and B's unless they are stars... and in my experience of this game.. B's are RARELY stars unless they already have been given a ton of ability on the game. They just don't improve enough to be stars. They are bottom of the order players and back of the rotation. Although relief pitchers do alright as B's. There aren't many A relievers. But The way I've found the potential grades to work for me is:
A - improve a lot
B - improve a little
C - remain the same until 32, then decline
D - decline each year
F - decline each year

Current MLB players will do ok A B or C.
Current AAA players will do ok A or B.
AA players will only see MLB action if they are an A. They will never improve enough otherwise. (unless they come up on a team who's less fortunate.)

Anyone else understand where I'm coming from on this? D and F are pretty much the same.. not worth your time or money. First thing I do is release them all because they stink. lol. It needs to be spread out more so B potential players can make the majors, too. Maybe it's just because A potential players don't decline enough after 35. lol

[Qb]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rag3vsW0rld

Just to add, that description used to be for a B-potential position player. A C potential is already a MLB-level starting position player, a pitcher in the rotation, or a bullpen pitcher. However they are considered average and could hold down the position if you wanted, but you can definitely do better. By the way, I'll throw my hat in a vouch for Alex Dickerson to a B-.

Was it you who posted all the potential descriptions a while ago? If so, could you please re-post it in the OSFM Potential thread? Thanks.

[GoBucs09]

Quote: Originally Posted by eman11

I definitely hope you're right, because his tools are exceptional. He does appear to make great contact, and the reports on him aren't that he's really a free swinger, but it's just hard for me to envision him sustaining a .325+ BA on a year to year basis, because there's maybe 1% of major leaguers you can count on that from. The power surge last year was huge for his prospect status, especially off of the hamate injury, but he still is more of a top of the order guy, so a big OBP that's comprised of more than BA would be great. I'd feel more confident in his ability to keep a monster OBP if he had more walks, that's all. Also not sure it's completely apples to apples comparing him to Cutch. Marte was 22 in AA last year...Cutch made his MLB debut at age 22. Not to mention, he's only 2 months younger than Jose Tabata so it's not like he's THAT advanced in terms of age or development compared to past guys. Like I said, wouldn't argue with an A because his tools are absolutely outstanding, just not sure he'll be a superstar unless he can produce a great OBP, and a better walk rate would make me more confident of that. That was my reasoning for a high B.

Agreed, although I'll say as far as comparing their numbers, McCutchen was drafted out of HS from Florida and English is his first language. Marte is coming from Latin America and I'm not sure if his English was good or not when he started out but the progression is different for LAmerican players compared to players from the States.

Marte is only a year behind McCutchen as far as age. The low walk rate doesn't mean too much if anything at all. If McCutchen had the same plate coverage as Marte then his walk rate would have been lower in the minors too.

The flip side is Robbie Grossman, he had 104 walks last year. Well he's extreemly passive at the plate and watches a lot of pitches. He likely doesn't have the same plate coverage or vision that Marte does.

[BatsareBugs]

Quote: Originally Posted by Qb

Was it you who posted all the potential descriptions a while ago? If so, could you please re-post it in the OSFM Potential thread? Thanks.

I'll try to. Knight told me there wasn't any changes in that for 2012, so I'll compile a list for 2012 based on that.

[eman11]

Quote: Originally Posted by joshize

@eman11 I guess my opinion is that the Top 100 should all be A's. According to the way this game's ratings are. Even some A's don't surface into the MLB until they are 31 years old. After 5 years of the franchise, it's unlikely that any ROTY awards are won by players under 30. It takes too long to develop players and such. Too many teams have stinky players playing on their team while good teams have 4 A potential right fielders on the bench and in AAA. Hopefully this year they shop those people instead of shopping Pujols and Reyes in May. I think this is a great thing that adds to the realism of the game. Sadly, many Top 100 guys won't wind up making the majors, and even more will wind up never living up to the hype when they get there. The fact that some guys take longer than you'd expect or don't make it at all makes this a great sim type game, IMO. Sadly, out of the Pirates Big 3 pitchers, only 1 is likely to reach their potential, and the Pirates would be incredibly fortunate if it's 2. Unfortunately, that's how baseball works more often than not. I disagree with the fact that the Pirates only have 5 or 6 highly touted players. Maybe if you ignore the organization like most of ESPN does. They just skip over thinking about the Pirates because of the bad run we've been on for 20 years. I believe we have the right guys doing the right things for now. They'll start to reevaluate things in the next few years. I think at this point it's fair. You have 5 or 6 guys who, at this point, you can expect big things from. The vast majority of the rest of the organization is comprised of 5th starter types or role players at the major league level IF they reach their potential. And of the rare few outside of the top 100 who COULD really turn into something, they have some MAJOR flaws to work out before they come close to that. As far as Marte... it's hard to see.. but the biggest problem with him right now is the outfield in PIT. If we didn't sign McLouth, he'd be that 4th guy. Presley was hot last year and McCutchen and Tabata are who (I believe) we're building this team around. He may play left field if Presley slows down... he may just be the guy who gets us a star at another position via trade. (hopefully 1B) Also, walks come with age. I do not think Marte would be the 4th OF, regardless of whether they signed McLouth or not. There's no doubt in my mind he's the 4th, and maybe 2nd or 3rd, most talented OF tools wise in the upper part of the system. But he's a lot like D'Arnaud at this point, in that I think you need him to play every day. Especially since he's bumping up a level. He wouldn't get that opportunity in Pittsburgh, but I think if he stays healthy and produces at AAA, he's a definite candidate for a call up and audition later in the season. Matt Hague > Garrett Jones. Yes, Matt Hague may be average, but that's a step higher than Garrett Jones IMO. You say you try to avoid A's and B's unless they are stars... and in my experience of this game.. B's are RARELY stars unless they already have been given a ton of ability on the game. They just don't improve enough to be stars. They are bottom of the order players and back of the rotation. Although relief pitchers do alright as B's. There aren't many A relievers. But The way I've found the potential grades to work for me is: A - improve a lot B - improve a little C - remain the same until 32, then decline D - decline each year F - decline each year Current MLB players will do ok A B or C. Current AAA players will do ok A or B. AA players will only see MLB action if they are an A. They will never improve enough otherwise. (unless they come up on a team who's less fortunate.) Anyone else understand where I'm coming from on this? D and F are pretty much the same.. not worth your time or money. First thing I do is release them all because they stink. lol. It needs to be spread out more so B potential players can make the majors, too. Maybe it's just because A potential players don't decline enough after 35. lol Out of curiosity, do you typically change potentials to ones similar to what you posted earlier in the thread? If so, that would really dilute the value of B and C guys and make their improvements seem menial or non-existent. Apparently D's are for career minor leaguers, but C's DO progress, it's just hit or miss if they make the majors. However, that's definitely reflective of how baseball actually works, with far more guys fizzling out than making it.

And fun fact since McCutchen and Marte's ages got brought up in another post. They're born a day apart in October, with Marte being born October 9, 1988 and McCutchen being born October 10, 1986. So, McCutchen COULD technically be considered a year older than Marte at 1 year and 364 days.

[GoBucs09]

Quote: Originally Posted by eman11

And fun fact since McCutchen and Marte's ages got brought up in another post. They're born a day apart in October, with Marte being born October 9, 1988 and McCutchen being born October 10, 1986. So, McCutchen COULD technically be considered a year older than Marte at 1 year and 364 days.

Eman, If the age was a reference to my comment, I had meant what age they each reached minor league levels. Most people would say Cutch is two years older.

Although I was actually wrong, Cutch did reach each level 2 years ahead of Marte. However, Marte spent two years in the Dominican Summer league, not getting a lot of playing time due to the limited number of games. Cutch had a lot of at bats. The more I look at all the different stats, the more conviced I am that Marte may actually be better than Cutch.

There is only one thing I can think of right now that might make me wrong, which is that the players surrounding Marte now, may be better than the ones McCutchen played with in the Minors, which would also be a good thing.

[tree3five]

Here is the final list of the players that GoBucs and I agreed on to create for OSFM. These are just the players that need created. Potentials are next to the player name. If we missed something, let us know, thanks.

Pitchers

SP Cole - A
SP Taillon - A
SP Heredia - B
SP/CP Allie - B
SP McPherson - B
SP Kingham - B
SP Cain - C
SP Owens – C
RP B. Morris – C
RP J. Wilson – C
SP Holmes - C
RP Welker - C
SP ZVR - C
SP Pribanic - C
RP Alderson – C
SP Baker - C
SP/RP Colla - C
SP Martis - C
RP Poreda - C
RP Cardenas- C
SP Irwin - C
SP/RP Loree - D
SP McSwain - D
CP Diaz - D
RP/SP Cofield - D
RP Dubee - D
RP Krol - D


Pos Players

OF Bell - A
CF Marte – A
CF Grossman – B
C Sanchez - B
1B Dickerson - B
2B Cunningham - C
2B/SS Hanson – C
LF Gorkys - C
1B Hague - C
SS/2B Holt - C
C Paulino - C
SS Mercer - C
CF Chambers - C
CF Rojas - C
UTIL IF Friday – C
C Cabrera - C
IF Nunez - C
1B Curry - C
3B/2B E. Gonzalez - D
LF Latimore - C
OF Lambo - C
DH/1B Anderson - D
2B/OF Santos - D
OF Norman - D
2B/IF Picart - D
3B Farrell - D
OF Chalk – D
2B A. Hernandez - D
DH/1B Clement – D