Ratings overhaul - I think Madden needs it

[Sef0r]

RATINGS OVERHAUL

The current ratings system indicates any player will play consistently at their rating every time.

A new rating system with a low and high end number (eg, 65/85) I think would allow for a lot of variation in matchups and the inconsistent play of real life NFL players.

These variable ratings would only really come into affect on those ratings that are truly variable like Awareness, Catching, Carrying, QB Accuracy, Run Blocking, Pass Blocking, etc while ratings like Speed, Agility, Stiff Arm, Spin Move, Juke Move are less likely have vary that much, if at all.

Before I get into any specific ratings I think a lot of new ratings need to be introduced to replace current ratings.

QB
Read Defence – basically avoids silly mistakes, throwing INTs, knowing when to throw it away.
Short pass accuracy - screen passes to 20 yards
Long pass accuracy - 21 yards and more
Avoid Rush – Obviously the higher the number the better the QB will be at spinning out of tackles, running away from tackles, etc.

RB
Hole recognition – for the CPU to be able to find a hole to run through.
Elusiveness – similar to Avoid Rush for the QB, the runner is harder to tackle.

RB/WR/TE
Route Running – the higher the number the more routes the receiver can run with success.

All Defensive players
Pass Rush – the higher the number the better the chance at pressuring the QB, does not have to equal a sack every time just because they rate 95/99, but they would be more consistent at creating pressure.

All Defensive players
Bump n Run – higher number means less chance of a receiver getting off the LOS.

Here is how the new rating system would work, as an example here are 2 QBs who are similar in playing styles but differ in skill.

QB - Donavon McNabb
Avoid Rush = 85/95
Short Pass Acc = 85/95
Long Pass Acc = 60/80
Throw Power = 80/90
Read Defence = 60/90



QB – JaMarcus Russell
Avoid Rush = 30/75
Short Pass Acc = 40/80
Long Pass Acc = 10/80
Throw Power = 93/98
Read Defence = 30/70

Analysis
McNabb has a better chance of avoiding a blitz/pass rusher with his 85/95 rating.
JaMarcus will be inconsistent in this area because he could either be a 30 rating and not see the blitz coming or a 75 rating and have a chance. Depending on the development of JaMarcus this rating may change with more experience and end up being 60/65.

The above analysis can be applied to the rest of the ratings. JaMarcus Throw power is at 93/98, meaning he will consistently be able to throw a hard ball even after throwing 40 attempts a game. McNabb on the other hand will probably start at 90 at the start of the game but will wear out and probably hover around the 80 mark after 30+ pass attempts.

Notice how JaMarcus’ Long pass acc is at 10/80, this means he could very well be a 20 or 30 rating on some long pass attempts and maybe depending on the situation and pressure on him he could throw an accurate long ball at a 80 rating 1 in 5 attempts. Someone like Brees would have a 95/99 long pass acc rating.

This rating system would allow for player development and Tiburon could probably thrown in a hidden number to determine how well the player develops.

Lets say JaMarcus is currently rated at 30/70 for read defence, his chance of success with development could linked to a development rating which would be hidden from the user.

Read Defence rating with a VERY HIGH development rating.
Year 1 – 20/70
Year 2 – 30/70
Year 3 – 65/70
Year 4 – 70/85
Year 5+ - 85/90

Read Defence rating with a LOW development rating.
Year 1 – 20/80
Year 2 – 30/70
Year 3 – 35/70
Year 4 – 40/65
Year 5+ - 45/55

This can apply to all ratings that have a large variable. Speed should never really change except to go down slightly. The animations and how the game handles these animations can be applied to these ratings just as it is now.

[Djwlfpack]

I agree that the ratings system needs to de re-worked. I've lobbied for EA to ditch the numerical ratings in favor of a system like 2K has implemented with All-Pro Football 2K8. But, I doubt that will happen so all I can hope for is the number system to be tweaked. You certainly have put a lot of thought into those ratings. I'd need to take another read through them to form a full opinion, but so far, I like the direction you've come up with.

[Ian_Cummings_EA]

Quote: Originally Posted by Djwlfpack

I agree that the ratings system needs to de re-worked. I've lobbied for EA to ditch the numerical ratings in favor of a system like 2K has implemented with All-Pro Football 2K8. But, I doubt that will happen so all I can hope for is the number system to be tweaked. You certainly have put a lot of thought into those ratings. I'd need to take another read through them to form a full opinion, but so far, I like the direction you've come up with.

Under the hood, 2k8 still has a numerical system though...there has to be some number used in calculations to determine how fast a player is or how accurate a pass is or whatever. I actually liked some of the ratings in 2k8's system as well...I personally didn't like the stuff like the scissor kick ability...I mean, every running back can do a scissor kick, it's a.) whether they choose to do it with tendencies, and b) whether they're effective at it). Thoughts on that?

Maybe in the future there could be a "layer" over top of the ratings systems that filter players into different categories and allow different moves or special abilities at those categories, but then you could dig one layer deeper and actually see the numbers. After all, it is a great point of debate and one of the most fun parts of Madden each year to see all of the discussion over the ratings - which player is faster, which player is stronger, etc. I'd hate to lose that as a discussion point. Seems like there's a way to satisfy both areas easily.

To further the discussion, I know that our whole team sees "tendencies" as a big part of the future for Madden ratings. We had a great start with the next-gen ratings with things like Trucking, Elusiveness, Hit Power, etc to try and deprecate Awareness and Speed as being the only important ratings, but we all know they need to be tuned better. But tendencies as to each of those ratings will be the real deal...how often you truck or be elusive, how often you go for the big hit, etc. Thoughts?

[Kev5890]

To my knowledge the only player who should of had the scissor kick ability is Walter Payton. I have never seen anyone do it besides him...

[thudias]

Agreed tendencies should be a major factor..Its always nice to have a little window left open where one of your players does something unexpected.

the emphasis is a little window.

[Djwlfpack]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

Under the hood, 2k8 still has a numerical system though...there has to be some number used in calculations to determine how fast a player is or how accurate a pass is or whatever. I actually liked some of the ratings in 2k8's system as well...I personally didn't like the stuff like the scissor kick ability...I mean, every running back can do a scissor kick, it's a.) whether they choose to do it with tendencies, and b) whether they're effective at it). Thoughts on that?

Right, it's just that those numbers weren't "shown" to the user. I liked the idea of listing certain attributes a player really excels at. Like, for instance, with Randy Moss he would have something like "Deep Threat" and "Speed Burner" You could still list all his numerical ratings if you wanted, but I think it'd be a nice touch if we saw an inclusion of abilities each player had.

And yes, true, every back could do a scissor kick, but an attribute should only be assigned to a player if they are effective at it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

Maybe in the future there could be a "layer" over top of the ratings systems that filter players into different categories and allow different moves or special abilities at those categories, but then you could dig one layer deeper and actually see the numbers. After all, it is a great point of debate and one of the most fun parts of Madden each year to see all of the discussion over the ratings - which player is faster, which player is stronger, etc. I'd hate to lose that as a discussion point. Seems like there's a way to satisfy both areas easily. To further the discussion, I know that our whole team sees "tendencies" as a big part of the future for Madden ratings. We had a great start with the next-gen ratings with things like Trucking, Elusiveness, Hit Power, etc to try and deprecate Awareness and Speed as being the only important ratings, but we all know they need to be tuned better. But tendencies as to each of those ratings will be the real deal...how often you truck or be elusive, how often you go for the big hit, etc. Thoughts?

Right, Ian. That will be the balance you'll have to figure out. I know your job isn't easy and I appreciate all your time dedicated to responding to guys like me that love sports games on this website.

It's good to hear that you guys are having those discussions about tweaking ratings and adding new layers. I think that will be nothing but beneficial to the gameplay.

Perhaps there could be risk and reward idea with the tendencies? Like, say for instance, a MLB isn't as big a hitter as Ray Lewis. If he goes for a big hit, he might get it and stop the RB in his tracks, or he might not get all of the hit and the RB is able to break through the tackle for additional yardage.

[Ian_Cummings_EA]

Quote: Originally Posted by Djwlfpack

Perhaps there could be risk and reward idea with the tendencies? Like, say for instance, a MLB isn't as big a hitter as Ray Lewis. If he goes for a big hit, he might get it and stop the RB in his tracks, or he might not get all of the hit and the RB is able to break through the tackle for additional yardage.

Totally. That's the great things about tendencies. It would REALLY allow us to re-create these players to a T. Thinking about a guy like Rex Grossman for example - he tries the deep ball all the time, though he may not be the most accurate at deep passes or anything. If you have one without the other (i.e. deep accuracy or deep passing tendency), then you've only gotten halfway there as to re-creating that player in a realistic manner.

Hit power would be the same way - players may try big hits all the time and not be successful at them...a Roy Williams comes to mind as someone that would be in the high 90's in a tendency to go for the big hit, but he's not always successful at it (i.e. a low Hit Power rating)...where a Ray Lewis would be really high at Hit Power but he doesn't necessarily try to blow guys up all the time - he's got a really high hit power but he's also just as much focused on sure tackling as he is killing a guy with a big hit.

[JMD]

Quote: Originally Posted by Djwlfpack

Right, it's just that those numbers weren't "shown" to the user. I liked the idea of listing certain attributes a player really excels at. Like, for instance, with Randy Moss he would have something like "Deep Threat" and "Speed Burner" You could still list all his numerical ratings if you wanted, but I think it'd be a nice touch if we saw an inclusion of abilities each player had. .

Dosen't the Icon system in Madden already do this? It's shows what special abilities each player has. I think it's very much like 2k8 in that respect. Personally I like the number ratings.

[rgiles36]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

...but we all know they (ratings) need to be tuned better.

Is it reasonable to assume we'll see some improvement in this area come Madden 2010?

[Sef0r]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

But tendencies as to each of those ratings will be the real deal...how often you truck or be elusive, how often you go for the big hit, etc. Thoughts?

Are the ratings for elusive, trucking, juke moves actually tendency percentages? Like a 95 for trucking means the player will truck 95% of the time? If not can you expand on how tendency is worked out?

I still believe the number system should stay but if you allow for a low and high end rating then you can have randomness with the lesser skilled players and consistency with the truely skilled playmakers.

Lets use Ray Lewis here.

Ray Lewis
TACKLE = 90/96
Hard Hit = 80/85
SPEED = 85/85
PLAY recognition = 80/90

Obviously this means you have a playmaking MLB on your team with the above ratings who will play within those ratings, on a bad day where momentum might not be going his team's way he may play consistently at the lower end of his ratings.

Which brings me to something important. MOMENTUM.
I don't know how momentum is done in the game but I think with this rating system it would allow you to keep it some what realistic.

You could have all of the offensive players on a team that is playing badly all play at the lower end of their ratings until one of them can make a play to lift the morale and get them playing closer to the high end of their ratings again.