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Player Progression In Franchise Mode.

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Old 01-07-2011, 02:41 PM   #201
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Re: Player Progression In Franchise Mode.

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Originally Posted by British Bronco
As I said before in a previous post - if average players are generating silly stats then your sliders need changing (or as Deelron keeps pointing as well - the human player is taking advantage of poor cpu AI). Either way the player involved should not see a significant rating increase. Potential rating needs to stay otherwise franchises fall apart as Madden players turn their scrubs into Jerry Rice simply by throwing them the ball a lot. Utterly ridiculous.
Does this then mean the player (both on the team and controlling) should be penalized with proper game planning. If I were to take away my ability to effectively understand offensive and defensive schemes to the point of consistent success my difficulty rating would be custom. The computer would get bonuses to at least 70% where I would have to take penalties to 20-30% ACROSS THE BOARD. However all this does is minimize my players' natural abilities and the CPU's players' weaknesses (where i will be lucky to complete my drop back AND throw a pass before getting hit where the CPU can sit in the pocket for a quarter if they want. While this is a challenge is it realistic? And yes I've messed around enough to figure this out). The main problem with the game and difficulty is not ratings but AI and the only way to get a good challenge is to have the sliders set to where the game resembles an nfl playoff team against a middle of the pack non-BCS conference college team. On the standard Madden difficulty I still score an average of 35 pts while holding most teams, even those with prolific, balanced offesnses to under 10 (with 9, usually 3 FGs, being the most consistent score)
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:42 PM   #202
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Re: Player Progression In Franchise Mode.

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Originally Posted by Deelron
On top that any performance system that makes enough of a difference to matter is just going to favor the human player and push ratings up more, and the complexity involved in making sure everything is reasonable and still customizable to the player doesn't make it worth the effort. All of a sudden you're going to have to compensate for individual players settings as the stats in 15 min games don't equal the stats in 6 minute games, nor games with Accelerated clock on, or the variety of other time related options. Last-gen's problem with players like LB's not progressing well due to not having enough tackles compared to their computer controlled counterparts is a prime example. It'd take quite a bit of work to get this function to work without quite a bit of wonkiness.
Now I'm not a 2k fanboy (never played the nfl2k series myself. However, I do play the 2k basketball series and have seen other people mention it in relation to this topic and I agree with them in part. With this specific example the mathematics needed to figure out an adequate conversion system is simple division. Determine an adequate number of tackles in a 15 min game on madden setting for maximum progression, let's say 20 (I know it's a bit inflated, but so are your arguments against performance based progression). That is basically a 1:3 ratio, 1 tackle every three minutes of game time. On 6 min quarters that would require 8 tackles (not impossible, but not the easiest accomplishment either). For each decrease of difficulty add 25% onto the requirement (not sure if it's additive or cumulative but you get the idea). In fact most of the madden algorithms seemed to be based this way around simple algebra.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:43 PM   #203
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Re: Player Progression In Franchise Mode.

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Originally Posted by Richieh
You're confusing the re-rating of a real player based on real performance, which is a correction of EAs previous rating, and progression based on the video game.
When a real life player has a good season, EA correct the Madden ratings to reflect their updated perception of his abilities.
In Madden, the player is already playing to his abilities, so no correction is required. All that is required is progression of his skills, representing the benefits of practice, training, coaching and experience.
I fail to see the difference between the 2. In fact it seems to be a circular argument of semantics. What is player progression than a re-evaluation of a player's skills? You can argue that the skills were already there, but to an absolute degree that is a rediculous statement. You will argue that players who sit the early part of their career learn on the bench and that's why they progress well, then state that players with "A" potential already have those skills. It is a rationalizationist's dream argument for fatalism. It is the all powerful and great Engine-God that determines who can and cannot be great. This is so far removed from reality it's barely worth commenting on. Other than the obvious legends and obvious busts a player's potential is determined by a vast many influences, many of them that have nothing to do with the player (though I understand some would disagree because apparently a team of players on the field is who wins on their own and the organization is meaningless. I guess there are no such thing as great GMs, coaches, coordinators, position coaches and presidents or other members of the organization not represented that put in unheralded hours of work to help make the ORGANIZATION a winner.) As far as potential goes there should be great, awful and EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN (making up at least 80% of the league) which is much more accurate.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:43 PM   #204
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Re: Player Progression In Franchise Mode.

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Originally Posted by British Bronco
There appears to be a fundamental divide here between those of us who want realistic franchises that remain balanced and controlled in terms of league wide talent levels and those who want to make no effort at scouting, take any player drafted in the 6th round and turn him into Walter Payton or Jerry Rice by forcefeeding him the ball.

As an aside they are never able to explain how exactly offensive linemen are supposed to progress.....

Anyway I wouldn't be surprised if a number of those in the latter camp represet a generation bought up on computer and tabletop RPG's where skills go up based on gold/treasure/quests completed etc. Trouble is the real NFL is not World of Warcraft.
For someone who later admonishes another user for being blunt with the label "idiot", this is easily the sneakiest, most cunning case of hypocritical accusation I've seen on the thread. While I may respect the execution of the insult, as the subtlety is impressive, the intent is just as corrosive as a clumbsily put "idiot". And OL progress based on pancakes, sacks allowed, and for stats that aren't shown, blocks sustained, proper assignments successfully completed, failure of pass rush moves, ect (of course the AI for blocking assignments is so FUBAR I don't think more then 10 OLmen deserve a rating above 85).
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:44 PM   #205
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Re: Player Progression In Franchise Mode.

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Originally Posted by Deelron
I agree they should certainly be graded but I'm not a big fan of them effecting progression, coaches are even harder to measure in terms of performance and generally speaking I think it'd be a drag to play to play a newer head coach who would drag down progression. I think the current version with the boosts to specific stats in combination with a varying ability to assess the potential value of players would both increase value to older, established coaches while not overly penalizing players who choose to play a lower rated one.
First head coaching changes a great many things about teams all the time, player progression being one of them. Some coaches are master strategists. Some are great motivators and know how to get the most out of their players. And some coaches are great and molding young players into athletes that out perform what they would have under less inspired tutelage. That's the risk involved in upheaval. This player devotion is touching, but, ultimately, misguided and completely unrepresentative to the way the NFL works IRL.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:45 PM   #206
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Re: Player Progression In Franchise Mode.

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Originally Posted by British Bronco
Anyway you've completely missed his point.

How many times does this need to be explained to people? Chris Johnson is now a 99 following his awesome year last year because the Madden team were able to re-evaluate him.

That can't happen in an offline franchise that goes on for several years. Once you press the start franchise button your franchise is out on its own. No revaluations are possible.

I'll say this again and maybe it will sink in - if a scrub RB is running for 2500 yards then either your sliders are wrong, you are exploiting the AI, or he is running behind a Hall Of Fame quality offensive line. Either way he does not become a better player on the field (although as noted above he probably could ask for more money, or get better trade value. Here's hoping a deeper Madden franchise awaits in M12).
Again I fail to see the difference in re-evaluation and progression other than the chosen diction. The effect is the same the players ratings change. You just seem to believe in destiny or predetermination in correlation to the game. I like the idea of any player becoming great, but I do think the difficulty of turning a poor playing, unskilled, unmotivated player into a great player as opposed to an exceptional, skilled, hard working player should be sliding based on potential, which, in and of itself, can increase or decrease.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:48 PM   #207
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Re: Player Progression In Franchise Mode.

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Originally Posted by Icarus2k9
Here's some simple (and stupid) scenarios for anyone arguing that stats should drive progression...

* A 45 OVR running back is fed the ball continually. He's running behind a terrible O line, and is only pulling out 3ypc, but the sheer amount of carries gives him 1,200 yards. Does he deserve a boost?
* A WR is the fourth string receiver behind three all star WRs. He's spent months practicing in the off season, and the coaches agree he's a future star, snagging highlight reel catches all through training camp. In Madden, because of his 4th WR role, he gets 17 catches for 250 yards. He was rated a 84 by EA to start the season - does this mean he should have his numbers slashed?
* A more extreme example - a WR is targeted three times in one game. The first time, the CB slips and gives him an easy 60 yard td. The second time, a mix up in zone coverage gives him another 20 yards. On the third, he's matched against the defence's slowest player, and the throw gives him the easiest of catches on a quick go pattern, resulting in 20 more yards. He had a 100 yard game, yet didn't once prove his abilities. If this somehow continued to happen throughout a season, (and in a game like Madden 11, easily could), does he deserve a boost?
You are quite correct about the simplicity of the scenarious. In fact, you are over-simplifying the situation.

* A 45 OVR running back is fed the ball continually. He's running behind a terrible O line, and is only pulling out 3ypc, but the sheer amount of carries gives him 1,200 yards. Does he deserve a boost?[/quote]

The 45 OVR w 1200 yrds and 3.0ypc does not deserve a great increase, but the player in question would have had to have learned a bit through the course of that run. However, the most telling stat is 3ypc (which by the way is less than ideal, but it's not terrible. It's just mediocre). If the YPC was higher and the O-Line was less than steller then the player definitely deserves a stat boost (though not up to the 90's). However, I disagree with one year wonders getting to the top of the ratings anyway. Even if they pan out one great year does not indicate a great player. Miles Austin was sensational last year, but this year, while very good, he has not matched the flashes of ability he showed last year. The same applies for Deshawn Jackson. I fear Arian Foster will be the next in a long line of players whose one league leading year will dictate a superb ratings increase and next year he will perform well but not spectacular. 1st break through players are rarely game planned for, and even when they are teams don't have enough game tape to adequately plan so they will catch opponents off guard. Also players within their division will learn their tendencies and play better as they face the same opponent twice a year. Again your idea of realism is short-sighted.

* A WR is the fourth string receiver behind three all star WRs. He's spent months practicing in the off season, and the coaches agree he's a future star, snagging highlight reel catches all through training camp. In Madden, because of his 4th WR role, he gets 17 catches for 250 yards. He was rated a 84 by EA to start the season - does this mean he should have his numbers slashed?

Again an over-simplification you use to skewer the reality of the league to suit your rationalizations for the current system. As the 4th receiver his role is not expected to make a lot of catches or yards. In fact if he made more than 3 touchdowns he would have done very well at his spot on the roster the next year might be the 3rd WR on the chart (if he performs well in training camp, which is absent, and pre-season). Again I realize the math nessecary for the algorithm is not simple, but it's not that complex either. Realize the thousands of calculations run just for a single play and the couple hundred for player progression is miniscule in comparison.

* A more extreme example - a WR is targeted three times in one game. The first time, the CB slips and gives him an easy 60 yard td. The second time, a mix up in zone coverage gives him another 20 yards. On the third, he's matched against the defence's slowest player, and the throw gives him the easiest of catches on a quick go pattern, resulting in 20 more yards. He had a 100 yard game, yet didn't once prove his abilities. If this somehow continued to happen throughout a season, (and in a game like Madden 11, easily could), does he deserve a boost?

Once this player is "RE-Evaluated" IRL he would be given a great rating. However, what caused the zone mix up? Could the player's route running have confused the defenders. Did the defender slip because of a move the receiver put on him or was it raining and the receiver was agile enough to keep his footing through a cut and the defender was not. The slower player is a defensive mismatch, but guess what? That happens all the time in real game scenarios and is often what head coaches and offensive coordinators try to achieve so they can exploit this. Why is this seen as a "cheap" way of playing. This is the purpose of game planning and audibles on the field in PROFESSIONAL FOOTBALL GAMES. Not video games, REAL GAMES. If a CB gets injured in a game the quarter back comes after his replacement until he can prove he can defend his man/zone and if the team adjusts to provide more protection then the team will use the openings to attack other areas of the field. That is the nature of the game.

Do any of you people actually know anything about football? Have you ever watched a game with an underatnding of the strategy or just cheer and curse at "good plays" and "bad plays"? I just don't unsderstand how this is news. You would probably call me a cheap player for creating mismatches on offense and defense and then exploiting them. But then again, you'd probably say the same thing about professional coaches and athletes if you knew what was actually happening.
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:49 PM   #208
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Re: Player Progression In Franchise Mode.

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Originally Posted by British Bronco
Good idea in principle, but I suspect AI trade logic and salary would be harder to code for without an OVR. So I suspect we won't see the EA team develop this any time soon.

Now if EA introduced a perceived OVR that affected salary/trade value that would be awesome.
Again, the code is not really that difficult. It would actually be a network of stats (player positional stats, team scheme, team positional need, player's role within the scheme; as a 3rd WR may be needed but based on the scheme of the offense speed or posession may be favored, ect). It seems overwhelming, but if you stop and think about it there are many components that can be easily identified. And again, the programing is not than difficult (in fact they have tailored it successfully in previous versions of madden so translating the numbers game to the new-gen is not difficult, as it requires no adjustment for graphics, since, yet again, it is all internalized number crunching). The only part that would be iffy is the valuation of the differing factors, but I bet they could figure it out; I know I could, so why couldn't they?
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