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Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you?

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Old 11-15-2014, 09:10 AM   #17
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Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

As far as Passing Plays, I still have testing to do, but I'm 99% sure each defender in Man coverage is scripted to run the same route as the receiver, with the only variance being the difficulty level and/or sliders which would affect the speed the defender runs the route and/or the distance at which they make the next change of direction or cut.

I've created dozens of new routes the game doesn't know by default, but it doesn't matter to the AI, they run the same route as the WR regardless if its stock or created. Which makes sense, routes are nothing more than script data anyway. For example "0.75 yards, 70 degrees, 100% speed; 4.5 yards, 45 degrees, 100% speed; 25 yards, 14 degrees, 100% speed" is the script for an angled crossing route.

Which makes sense, seeing as there are dozens of Run and Defense PLYT tags, but only a couple of Pass PLYT tags. AI doesn't need as many for passes, it simply runs the same routes receivers do with variances based on difficulty levels to create the "proper" amount of openness of a receiver. The AI only needs to know if its a regular pass, playaction, or HB pass etc for its start of play scripting.
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Old 11-15-2014, 03:49 PM   #18
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Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

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Originally Posted by trey31
If you don't mind me asking, do you play on anything other than All-Madden?
Nah. Strictly All-Madden this year.
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Old 11-15-2014, 05:31 PM   #19
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Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

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Originally Posted by TheWood56
Nah. Strictly All-Madden this year.
Interesting results then. If they are picking weird defensive calls at random, which aren't beneficial based on the user play call, and not based on the play type tag, then I don't really see how that would be any more beneficial to the game experience than in previous installments.

Logic tells me that the AI should choose plays based on the exact same thing that real Defensive coordinators do; down & distance and the offense's player personnel package (not formation).

EA could even make it more realistic as well by using down & distance and personnel package along with user tendencies; eg the current user profile only runs 11% on 3rd and 5 or longer with their current 11 personnel package (ignoring the formation, which isn't known until the offense breaks the huddle and the D call has already been made; but even if thats not favorable the AI could make adjustments to package or play selection with a simple audible or individual assignment change).

I know that would be slightly more difficult (time consuming) to code, but its not by any means outside the realm of possibility. And how many problems would that solve (players tweaking and fighting about sliders, for instance) while providing a more realistic challenge? AI doesn't have to cheat, it could use your own (past) tendencies in certain situations to decide what to do. That's what coaches and coordinators spend all week doing, studying their opponent's game film and tendencies.

"If its in the game, its in the game." isn't that what we've all wanted all along?
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Old 11-15-2014, 05:35 PM   #20
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Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

"So there it is. The giant elephant in the room. Madden AI has no idea what is happening on the field at any given time, on any given play. It is simply reacting to the PLYT tag until the ball crosses the line of scrimmage. At that point it becomes rally time and all 11 defenders instantly begin to converge on the ball carrier."
That explains the horrible zone defense/defensive awareness in general that ryanmoody21 showed in detail in one of his videos. In his example, a defender would rather just stand there covering no one, and only reacts the the ballcarrier after he crosses the line of scrimmage, by then of course it's too late. I've seen it plenty of times when I had this game, and even high/low play recognition/awareness didn't matter. And this from ea's website hyping Madden 15's improved defense:

"In Madden NFL 15, Player Sense 2.0 creates the smartest playing Madden ever by improving player emotion, contextual awareness, head tracking, reach tackles and more."

How can they keep getting away with either lying about what actually happens in the game, or just not being able to deliver on the features they advertise? Because I often saw unaware players, defense that couldn't adapt to me running the same play as I marched down the field, players celebrating when they shouldn't, weak dbs regularly bringing down my strong power rb one on one way too much, and defenders often make tackles despite being blocked. Yesterday, I dusted off my ps2 and played the other ancient game and ran the same toss play twice and saw the defense shift their LBs and D-lineman to that side...then they did the same thing when I flipped the play and ran towards the other side...actual adaptive ai. You would think a current game that hyped defense would be capable of this but it isn't, even though some decade old game on a less powerful system can.
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Old 11-15-2014, 05:45 PM   #21
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Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

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Originally Posted by Fist Of Kings
Yesterday, I dusted off my ps2 and played the other ancient game and ran the same toss play twice and saw the defense shift their LBs and D-lineman to that side...then they did the same thing when I flipped the play and ran towards the other side...actual adaptive ai.
2K was good at that. Madden actually did the same (though not as well according to some) on PS2/Xbox and simply stopped having adaptive AI at some point on the last "next gen" when it moved to PS3/360.

To be honest, if you liked playing Madden on PS2, check out the Football Idiot Madden 08 mod for PC on youtube. Old game, new life. I actually made the switch from 12 back to 08/PC permanently. 08 isn't perfect, but it plays a lot like PS2 did (except crisper at 1080p even if its low quality textures) and stuff thats been broken since PS3/360 seems fine or at least passable on 08/PC.

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Old 11-15-2014, 06:10 PM   #22
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Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

I heard of it before, but haven't actually made the leap yet. I know it's not going to be a masterpiece due to it's age and limitations, but I did like how the mod somehow got the nfl on fox theme song, logo and updated uniforms.

Just imagine the options we'd have if ea release current football games on pc...drools.
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Old 11-15-2014, 10:14 PM   #23
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Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fist Of Kings
"So there it is. The giant elephant in the room. Madden AI has no idea what is happening on the field at any given time, on any given play. It is simply reacting to the PLYT tag until the ball crosses the line of scrimmage. At that point it becomes rally time and all 11 defenders instantly begin to converge on the ball carrier."
That explains the horrible zone defense/defensive awareness in general that ryanmoody21 showed in detail in one of his videos. In his example, a defender would rather just stand there covering no one, and only reacts the the ballcarrier after he crosses the line of scrimmage, by then of course it's too late. I've seen it plenty of times when I had this game, and even high/low play recognition/awareness didn't matter. And this from ea's website hyping Madden 15's improved defense:

"In Madden NFL 15, Player Sense 2.0 creates the smartest playing Madden ever by improving player emotion, contextual awareness, head tracking, reach tackles and more."

How can they keep getting away with either lying about what actually happens in the game, or just not being able to deliver on the features they advertise? Because I often saw unaware players, defense that couldn't adapt to me running the same play as I marched down the field, players celebrating when they shouldn't, weak dbs regularly bringing down my strong power rb one on one way too much, and defenders often make tackles despite being blocked. Yesterday, I dusted off my ps2 and played the other ancient game and ran the same toss play twice and saw the defense shift their LBs and D-lineman to that side...then they did the same thing when I flipped the play and ran towards the other side...actual adaptive ai. You would think a current game that hyped defense would be capable of this but it isn't, even though some decade old game on a less powerful system can.

They also said "this year the QB rating matters". BS. Doesn't matter if I face Peyton Manning or Matt Cassel, at the end of the game the stats are pretty much the same.


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Old 11-15-2014, 10:33 PM   #24
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Re: Ever notice Madden would sometimes seem to "Cheat" or go full "Beast Mode" on you

Quote:
Originally Posted by trey31
Interesting results then. If they are picking weird defensive calls at random, which aren't beneficial based on the user play call, and not based on the play type tag, then I don't really see how that would be any more beneficial to the game experience than in previous installments.
I mean, the formations are generally OK in terms of matching up to my personnel, but the defensive play call within that formation is where the problem lies.
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