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F0rl3fclov3r · 09-12-2012, 02:26 PM

Nice write up

LBzrule · 09-12-2012, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyBass


	Just a guess here: they wanted to make it easier. In other words, the less required inputs from the user the better, as they figure the pre-snap movement already within the play is enough. Either that or it was just something they missed, and they never intended user pre-snap adjustments to interfere with shifts already designed in the play. I think the pre-snap stuff can not only be streamlined, but also improved at the same time, so that it isn't so generic. I still kind of chuckle at how you can call for press coverage and have all your DBs creep forward in unison. I agree with the premise of the article, that shifts and adjustments need to fit with what is actually going on within the play and within the formation, allowing guys to make relevant and specific changes once they are lined up before the snap.

I hope it is something they just overlooked and not them putting controls on people because a blitz could be set up and spring a rusher free. If a rusher is free from the shift and the movement that's what slide protection is supposed to be for. It's like they are afraid for people to have easy blitz set ups so they try to hide stuff by having things like the entire defense reset, or the tacke/guard on the other side sprint over and pick guys up. These are minor things we as gamers need clarity on.

ithurtsme23 · 09-12-2012, 02:58 PM

Ive also noticed that inside edge sting is a broken defensive play that works in your favor..Noone picks up the blitzers and its an automatic sack,hurried throw, negative gain for the opposing team

RandyBass · 09-12-2012, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	I hope it is something they just overlooked and not them putting controls on people because a blitz could be set up and spring a rusher free. If a rusher is free from the shift and the movement that's what slide protection is supposed to be for. It's like they are afraid for people to have easy blitz set ups so they try to hide stuff by having things like the entire defense reset, or the tacke/guard on the other side sprint over and pick guys up. These are minor things we as gamers need clarity on.

Seems to me like it's a case of them simply heading down a path, and continuing on that path even if it's not quite the direction they should be heading.

They started with a pretty basic pre-snap system, and have added things over the years, and now we are where we are.

Like I said above they can streamline some of this stuff, to not only make it easier to manage, but also to make it better and more realistic. I think they'd be better off with basic core concepts for pre-snap, stuff like: bluff blitz, shade/press a specific receiver, line shift, etc. And have these core concepts be what pops up on the presnap menu. This would allow the user to ask himself as the play lined up: what can I do to augment this play so that I have the advantage?

Then on offense you'd have core concepts to counter the defensive ones, stuff like: hot routes, blitz pick ups, etc.

I know much of this already exists, but it's just done in a peculiar way. You have to go through excessive amounts of menus just to do simple things, and as your article notes it doesn't always mesh with the play call.

seriousluboy83 · 09-12-2012, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	I've several issues with this game defensively, and in my mind some of them should be relatively easy fixes. 1). The person on offense can actually control the way your defenders line up on certain plays. That's what i was getting at here. Why is it if I have secondary personnel blitzing they completely reset just because the user on offense audibles or starts making hot route adjustments? That makes me have to micromanage some stuff when I could use those seconds to do something else. 2). Why is it the case that if I control a defender lined up on the line of scrimmage the OL will suction block me on pass plays even though my player has a zone assignment. Yet if I allow the A.I to control that player they allow him to drop? 3). There are not enough defensive coverages in this game to deal with all of the offensive formations in the game. 4). The pursuit is bad. The defenders pursue to trail the ball carrier rather than take proper angels and use the sideline as an extra defender. I wish Lardarius Webb was at least as good in man coverage as Cromartie is in this game. Never mind Webb has a 96 man coverage rating, but can't defend curls and quick outs. Yet Cromartie for the Jets is all over those routes. Hell even Kyle Wilson is all over those routes. 5). Why is slide protection in this game if people do not need to use it? Against overload blitzes the guard or tackle from the opposite side will run all the way over and pick up the free rusher. This has been in EA football games far too long. Slide protection should be used against that free rusher. Make this stuff meaningful. Right now slide protection has no meaning if my guard or tackle from the other side is going to sprint over and pick up the blitzes. 6). How can a QB who is back pedaling not sprinting but back pedaling in a QB drop, out run a defensive end or OLB, or SS, blitzing off the edge untouched? Yes I know how to get around that guard/tackle who sprints over, but how then does a QB backpedal faster than a guy running downfield freely? 7). What is the logic of man coverage swapping at the snap and man align prior to the snap? Too many times guys are switching with me on the snap and I have no clue that that is going to happen. Man align is still a problem. Just play online against people who no huddle and watch the man coverage assignments switch across the field. 8). Why can't I audible on defense when the offense sends someone in motion? On the zone coverage, I think they need to have a long discussion on what to do to balance things out. You don't want every team that runs zone to walk away with the same results. I'm not going to get into the line stuff we've talked about that enough. I like some aspects of the game. There is too much micromanaging for defense though. Maybe that is due to a transition for upcoming games, not sure. It is very frustrating at times in the present game.

Which is why I can't understand for the life of me why guys consistantly choose to Hot Route Here, Hot Route There, Hot Route This, Hot Route That. Your making more Holes in a game that already plays like Swiss Cheese! I don't want to hear the excuses of Why, just know it's Bull.

GiantBlue76 · 09-12-2012, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	6). How can a QB who is back pedaling not sprinting but back pedaling in a QB drop, out run a defensive end or OLB, or SS, blitzing off the edge untouched? Yes I know how to get around that guard/tackle who sprints over, but how then does a QB backpedal faster than a guy running downfield freely?

I won't touch on the other aspects that you mentioned because they've been beaten to death, but this one... Remember Tim Tebow on the Jimmy Fallon show? I remember all those guys saying, "It's just for TV, it's on Pro, it's an early build...". Really? It's in the game, and it's on all levels and it's absolutely ridiculous. You can do it with any somewhat athletic QB. This is Madden-Ball - you know - because it's FUN.

SMDH...

RandyBass · 09-12-2012, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyBass


	I think they'd be better off with basic core concepts for pre-snap

I'm gonna do some work here, to try and come up with a basic list of concepts. I love the strategy aspect of football, and while admittedly my knowledge is limited I think I could come up with a decent list.

Found what looks like a decent article on pre-snap movements:

http://xandolabs.com/2011/06/pre-sna...gain-leverage/

A quick glance and I already see something that Madden doesn't have: offensive shifts from one formation to another. Not all NFL teams do this, but some do.

Funny side note, when searching google for pre-snap stuff a ton of Madden links pop up. LOL.

LordTC · 09-12-2012, 05:03 PM

Almost all of Madden's defensive issues come from seven main problems:

1) Improperly modelling angular momentum and blocking. The full engagement model in pass blocking is inaccurate, and terrible for explaining edge pressure. In real life dropping too far back from the pocket is suicide because it makes it impossible for tackles to contain their blocks on the ends. In madden, the Tackles suck up the ends entirely, often not creating that natural angular momentum rush that can result in pressure from behind.

2) Not being able to save plays post-adjustment. You need to be able to audible between schemes without having to do 6 adjustments by hand post-audible. Offensive adjustments are often easier because there is less manual positioning of players.

3) Insufficient number of audibles: If you require one extra button press in an audible you can have 25 options instead of 5. This would enable you to have plays for things like:

Defend Run Left and Run Center. Good right side and deep pass coverage.

With only 5 plays I can't necessarily make the tradeoffs I want against the alignment/personnel I face in the amount of time before the snap. Particularly if the offense reaudibles.

4) Taking away beatable 'nano's'. Watch the NFL sometime.. most 6 man blitzes result in quick throws. If a player isn't willing to use their short outlet or audible at the line when the defense shows pressure then there should be some pressure at the line. If you get slide protection wrong then it's likely to get gap pressure instead of edge pressure.

5) Spectacular DL's and Blitzing LB's seem relatively ordinary in comparison to regular DL and LB's. For WR, TE, and HB's there seem to be massive differences. In particular, there are plenty of players in the NFL who get double teamed in a massive amount of plays, and that should be difficult to handle one-on-one. Particularly with the new trade logic that makes it hard to build a defense of all-super stars, these players should actually be harder to handle. You should be able to add chipping to a tight end's route which slows them down but also helps the tackle against the end, and against players like Allen or Pierre-Paul, life should be very difficult if you don't. If the OL leaves Wilfork 1-1 vs the Center on a play the pocket should be collapsing and the ball should need to come out quickly (unless maybe an RB comes up to support). Adding the right features to the OL coverage, but making it necessary to actually contain dominant players or face problems would go a long way to helping the defense. Each offensive play now has an added element about which tradeoffs to make to handle the dominant defensive players.

7) Backpedalling should have about 1/2 the speed and 1/2 the acceleration of regular movement.

raguel · 09-12-2012, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	7). What is the logic of man coverage swapping at the snap and man align prior to the snap? Too many times guys are switching with me on the snap and I have no clue that that is going to happen. Man align is still a problem. Just play online against people who no huddle and watch the man coverage assignments switch across the field.

Is this still a problem after the patch? BTW, as I said before, I noticed this in beta and it was the primary reason I didn't buy the game.

RandyBass · 09-12-2012, 07:52 PM

Okay so here it is, a proposal for new and more streamlined pre-snap system:

There would be six total pre-snap options for both offense and defense, consisting of contrasting core concepts that augment each play in an attempt to gain an advantage. One of these options would appear on the play calling screen, while the other five would appear at the line of scrimmage.

Here they are, listed next to each other, offense vs. defense:

1. Shifts

This first option would appear on the play calling screen, and would amount to disguising the formation of the play called.

Offense
A simple example of this would be coming out in a tight formation, and then shifting to a spread. The main idea is to keep the defense guessing.

Defense
Same idea here. The defense would line up in one formation, then quickly shift in an attempt to hide just what they are doing. This could mean safeties coming up to the line, then backing off.

The next five would be at the line of scrimmage:

2. Trade vs Line/LB shift

Offense: Trade
Essentially putting one or two guys in motion, but different from motion in that these players are part of the offensive line (like a TE or FB) and "trade" sides. The main intent here is to gain an advantage against the front seven.

Defense: Line/LB shift
The counter to a trade would be to shift either the line or the LBs, so that any advantage gained would be neutralized. The user would select "Trade" from the menu and then either "Line" or "LB" to make the shift.

3. Motion vs LB/DB shift

Offense
Pretty basic fundamental stuff here: put a receiver or back in motion. One thing I'd like to see is for routes to flip, so that out routes stayed out routes when a man motioned to the other side.

Defense
The defense would actually adjust automatically, regardless of zone or man coverage. The wrinkle would be the ability to shift LBs or DBs too. So for example if there was a single safety deep, and a receiver went in motion, the user could slide that safety over by selecting: "Motion" and then "DB" to shift the shell coverage.

4. Blitz pick up vs Bluff blitz

Offense
Here the offense would attempt to read where a blitz was coming from. The user would select "Blitz pick up" from the pre-snap menu, then left or right to provide slide protection. Other options available after choosing "Blitz pick up" would be TE, RB, and/or FB which would assign those guys to help pick up the blitz.

Defense
The defensive counter to this would be Bluff blitz. When choosing "Bluff blitz" the user could then choose left or right, which would try to confuse the offense and force them to change what they are doing.

5. Hot route vs Individual DB coverage

Offense
Hot routes are pretty self explanatory, used to counter blitzes and exploit imbalances.

Defense
This area could use streamlining big time. Way too many button presses to be useful at the moment. This menu option would also read something like "Receiver spotlight" and give the option to focus on one receiver, with things like: press, shade inside/outside, back off, and double coverage. Essentially it would function as a way to nullify certain players and certain routes.

6. Audible vs Audible

Audibles are also self explanatory. The one thing I will say is that the current system is about as archaic as you can get. Even Bart Starr's grandpa ran stuff more complex. I suggest formation specific audibles, ones beyond the four basic ones (quick pass, etc.) and the five you see when selecting "More".

I mean, I'm pretty sure the "More" choices date back to the very first audible system ever used in Madden. We're well past due for an upgrade there.

Specific audibles for specific formations are the way to go, and would also fit into any plans for custom playbooks.

Conclusion

The other aspect of this is how the AI uses all of these things. I propose that easier difficulties use very few pre-snap adjustments, while harder difficulties adjust to what you do pre-snap at a much higher and accurate rate.

Bottom line is this streamlined system would not only be easier to use, it would also be a bit more realistic, with each pre-snap option having a contrasting counterpart on the other side of the ball.

09-12-2012, 05:03 PM	#18
LordTC Rookie OVR: 2 Join Date: Mar 2010	Re: Madden's Defensive Issues Almost all of Madden's defensive issues come from seven main problems: 1) Improperly modelling angular momentum and blocking. The full engagement model in pass blocking is inaccurate, and terrible for explaining edge pressure. In real life dropping too far back from the pocket is suicide because it makes it impossible for tackles to contain their blocks on the ends. In madden, the Tackles suck up the ends entirely, often not creating that natural angular momentum rush that can result in pressure from behind. 2) Not being able to save plays post-adjustment. You need to be able to audible between schemes without having to do 6 adjustments by hand post-audible. Offensive adjustments are often easier because there is less manual positioning of players. 3) Insufficient number of audibles: If you require one extra button press in an audible you can have 25 options instead of 5. This would enable you to have plays for things like: Defend Run Left and Run Center. Good right side and deep pass coverage. With only 5 plays I can't necessarily make the tradeoffs I want against the alignment/personnel I face in the amount of time before the snap. Particularly if the offense reaudibles. 4) Taking away beatable 'nano's'. Watch the NFL sometime.. most 6 man blitzes result in quick throws. If a player isn't willing to use their short outlet or audible at the line when the defense shows pressure then there should be some pressure at the line. If you get slide protection wrong then it's likely to get gap pressure instead of edge pressure. 5) Spectacular DL's and Blitzing LB's seem relatively ordinary in comparison to regular DL and LB's. For WR, TE, and HB's there seem to be massive differences. In particular, there are plenty of players in the NFL who get double teamed in a massive amount of plays, and that should be difficult to handle one-on-one. Particularly with the new trade logic that makes it hard to build a defense of all-super stars, these players should actually be harder to handle. You should be able to add chipping to a tight end's route which slows them down but also helps the tackle against the end, and against players like Allen or Pierre-Paul, life should be very difficult if you don't. If the OL leaves Wilfork 1-1 vs the Center on a play the pocket should be collapsing and the ball should need to come out quickly (unless maybe an RB comes up to support). Adding the right features to the OL coverage, but making it necessary to actually contain dominant players or face problems would go a long way to helping the defense. Each offensive play now has an added element about which tradeoffs to make to handle the dominant defensive players. 7) Backpedalling should have about 1/2 the speed and 1/2 the acceleration of regular movement.

09-12-2012, 07:52 PM	#20
RandyBass Rookie OVR: 3 Join Date: Dec 2009	Re: Madden's Defensive Issues Okay so here it is, a proposal for new and more streamlined pre-snap system: There would be six total pre-snap options for both offense and defense, consisting of contrasting core concepts that augment each play in an attempt to gain an advantage. One of these options would appear on the play calling screen, while the other five would appear at the line of scrimmage. Here they are, listed next to each other, offense vs. defense: 1. Shifts This first option would appear on the play calling screen, and would amount to disguising the formation of the play called. Offense A simple example of this would be coming out in a tight formation, and then shifting to a spread. The main idea is to keep the defense guessing. Defense Same idea here. The defense would line up in one formation, then quickly shift in an attempt to hide just what they are doing. This could mean safeties coming up to the line, then backing off. The next five would be at the line of scrimmage: 2. Trade vs Line/LB shift Offense: Trade Essentially putting one or two guys in motion, but different from motion in that these players are part of the offensive line (like a TE or FB) and "trade" sides. The main intent here is to gain an advantage against the front seven. Defense: Line/LB shift The counter to a trade would be to shift either the line or the LBs, so that any advantage gained would be neutralized. The user would select "Trade" from the menu and then either "Line" or "LB" to make the shift. 3. Motion vs LB/DB shift Offense Pretty basic fundamental stuff here: put a receiver or back in motion. One thing I'd like to see is for routes to flip, so that out routes stayed out routes when a man motioned to the other side. Defense The defense would actually adjust automatically, regardless of zone or man coverage. The wrinkle would be the ability to shift LBs or DBs too. So for example if there was a single safety deep, and a receiver went in motion, the user could slide that safety over by selecting: "Motion" and then "DB" to shift the shell coverage. 4. Blitz pick up vs Bluff blitz Offense Here the offense would attempt to read where a blitz was coming from. The user would select "Blitz pick up" from the pre-snap menu, then left or right to provide slide protection. Other options available after choosing "Blitz pick up" would be TE, RB, and/or FB which would assign those guys to help pick up the blitz. Defense The defensive counter to this would be Bluff blitz. When choosing "Bluff blitz" the user could then choose left or right, which would try to confuse the offense and force them to change what they are doing. 5. Hot route vs Individual DB coverage Offense Hot routes are pretty self explanatory, used to counter blitzes and exploit imbalances. Defense This area could use streamlining big time. Way too many button presses to be useful at the moment. This menu option would also read something like "Receiver spotlight" and give the option to focus on one receiver, with things like: press, shade inside/outside, back off, and double coverage. Essentially it would function as a way to nullify certain players and certain routes. 6. Audible vs Audible Audibles are also self explanatory. The one thing I will say is that the current system is about as archaic as you can get. Even Bart Starr's grandpa ran stuff more complex. I suggest formation specific audibles, ones beyond the four basic ones (quick pass, etc.) and the five you see when selecting "More". I mean, I'm pretty sure the "More" choices date back to the very first audible system ever used in Madden. We're well past due for an upgrade there. Specific audibles for specific formations are the way to go, and would also fit into any plans for custom playbooks. Conclusion The other aspect of this is how the AI uses all of these things. I propose that easier difficulties use very few pre-snap adjustments, while harder difficulties adjust to what you do pre-snap at a much higher and accurate rate. Bottom line is this streamlined system would not only be easier to use, it would also be a bit more realistic, with each pre-snap option having a contrasting counterpart on the other side of the ball.

09-12-2012, 02:58 PM	#13
ithurtsme23 Rookie OVR: 0 Join Date: Jan 2012	Ive also noticed that inside edge sting is a broken defensive play that works in your favor..Noone picks up the blitzers and its an automatic sack,hurried throw, negative gain for the opposing team

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Madden's Defensive Issues