Madden 13 Retail-What Is This Mess

[atc43]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaBear23

i am not attacking the weakness of the game. i am attacking your weakness, and your weakness is not being able to adjust. in and nfl match, if a TE runs a slant out the defense wont ask the nfl to banned such a cheese route. they would adjust.

This is Madden. Slant outs were A FLAW IN THE GAME THAT PEOPLE EXPLOITED. in real life it would be easy to adjust to that...in Madden its much more difficult because there arent BUILT IN adjustments for such cheese...coupled with the fact youd never even know one was coming pre-play anyway...

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaBear23

what is the point of playing a lobby game or match if you dont want to win. like i said to smoke, football is a game of exploit. if you are not trying to attack the weakness of ur opponent then you are not playing football.

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

This seems to be the biggest disconnect between self described "sim" gamers and tourney gamers, the reason for playing. I think we all play to win but some play to win the game of football using the video game, others to win the game of Madden, ie the video game. For some reason some people just don't understand the difference. I am not knocking anyone for wanting to win at Madden but that's not everyone's reason for playing.

I honestly don't believe I am talking in code or what I am saying is hard to understand. I want to WIN playing/simulating NFL football game play AS BEST I CAN, using Madden the video game as a medium. You and others of that ilk want to win using whatever works in the video game, regardless of if it's playing/simulating NFL football game play AS BEST YOU CAN or not.

What happened in that video was exploiting the program, not exploit the football weakness in his opponents offense. Again, you or anybody else can play the game however you choose to but I don't understand this rational with trying to justify your game play based on real life, when you obviously don't care if it's realistic or not, just if it is effective.

[Buford T Justice]

Can't believe I read 26 pages of this nonsense...

My head hurts.

[DaBear23]

Quote: Originally Posted by atc43

This is Madden. Slant outs were A FLAW IN THE GAME THAT PEOPLE EXPLOITED. in real life it would be easy to adjust to that...in Madden its much more difficult because there arent BUILT IN adjustments for such cheese...coupled with the fact youd never even know one was coming pre-play anyway...

you could adjust to the slant out easily. the problem with most of the sim head is that they dont want to adjust to any route or anything. any thing that cant be stop with a cover 2 or cover 3 is cheese. if a player run with micheal vick the the player is cheesing . basically anything that require an adjustment to stop is cheesing. you cant beat any player with 900 or more skill point with a slant out or weak nano blitz. they would shut you down.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaBear23

what is the point of playing a lobby game or match if you dont want to win. like i said to smoke, football is a game of exploit. if you are not trying to attack the weakness of ur opponent then you are not playing football.

LOL!!!

I'm never sure if you all are serious or trolling because sometimes the responses don't seem to respond to the questions quoted. One more from me before I abandon this thread. The disconnect is beyond my comprehension.

We know that the IE was implemented but only affects tackling. It does not affect blocking. Can you follow that to the fact that weight, strength, speed & angles are not taken into account in a realistic way when determining the outcome of blocking interaction? If so, can you follow that to the fact that when o-lineman engage with DBs, the outcomes are not realistic? If so...

Recognize that playing 7 DBs provides an advantage for the defense (speed) but none of the disadvantages (size & strength). DBs essentially outperform LBs at playing LB. They beat o-linemen at the o-linemen's strength & DBs weakness. If playing extra DBs against power running formations actually worked, NFL coaches would be using that strategy. None of us are smarter than NFL coaches when it comes to NFL football. We're only better at Maddenball.

On a 2nd note, Would you agree that there are limitations in the programming of Madden in that the AI can't react like a human and a gamer can only control 1 player at a time? Would you agree that we don't have all the tools necessary to instruct the AI players to react like a human would under all circumstances? If so, continue to follow...

When you use a tactic that the AI can't recognize and/or react to appropriately, your opponent has to make an adjustment that is not based on any known football principles to counter it. What folks are saying is that they don't enjoy making those non-football adjustments and they don't like playing against them. Those Maddenball techniques are simply not fun for everyone, whether successful or not.

One more example. Think about what a nano or shake blitz is... the gamer is trying to put a defender in a position where the AI lineman can't recognize him. As far as Madden AI is concerned, you can make a defender invisible. In the NFL, you can confuse a lineman, but you can't make a player invisible by moving him a few feet over. There are simply some tactics that are designed to take advantage of the weakness of the programming. Despite the fact that there are ways to counter these tactics, there are a segment of players that simply don't enjoying playing against people that look to exploit the GAME's shortcomings.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

LOL!!! I'm never sure if you all are serious or trolling because sometimes the responses don't seem to respond to the questions quoted. One more from me before I abandon this thread. The disconnect is beyond my comprehension. We know that the IE was implemented but only affects tackling. It does not affect blocking. Can you follow that to the fact that weight, strength, speed & angles are not taken into account in a realistic way when determining the outcome of blocking interaction? If so, can you follow that to the fact that when o-lineman engage with DBs, the outcomes are not realistic? If so... Recognize that playing 7 DBs provides an advantage for the defense (speed) but none of the disadvantages (size & strength). DBs essentially outperform LBs at playing LB. They beat o-linemen at the o-linemen's strength & DBs weakness. If playing extra DBs against power running formations actually worked, NFL coaches would be using that strategy. None of us are smarter than NFL coaches when it comes to NFL football. We're only better at Maddenball. On a 2nd note, Would you agree that there are limitations in the programming of Madden in that the AI can't react like a human and a gamer can only control 1 player at a time? Would you agree that we don't have all the tools necessary to instruct the AI players to react like a human would under all circumstances? If so, continue to follow... When you use a tactic that the AI can't recognize and/or react to appropriately, your opponent has to make an adjustment that is not based on any known football principles to counter it. What folks are saying is that they don't enjoy making those non-football adjustments and they don't like playing against them. Those Maddenball techniques are simply not fun for everyone, whether successful or not. One more example. Think about what a nano or shake blitz is... the gamer is trying to put a defender in a position where the AI lineman can't recognize him. As far as Madden AI is concerned, you can make a defender invisible. In the NFL, you can confuse a lineman, but you can't make a player invisible by moving him a few feet over. There are simply some tactics that are designed to take advantage of the weakness of the programming. Despite the fact that there are ways to counter these tactics, there are a segment of players that simply don't enjoying playing against people that look to exploit the GAME's shortcomings.

Well said Bezo and everyone should "bookmark" this post so it can be quoted the next time one of these type discussions pops up.

[Hiro1]

The more I stay in this thread the more it feels like left wing and right wing. (just a political analogy, I know politics is against TOS) Both sides "sim" and "freestlye" have their head stuck so far in their own sand box they refuse to even play on the Jungle gym everyone would love. It's funny freestlye players dont realize that they are exploiting the game, not their opponent's weakness in strategy and sim players dont realize how many different tools they have at their exposal.

[atc43]

Quote: Originally Posted by DaBear23

you could adjust to the slant out easily. the problem with most of the sim head is that they dont want to adjust to any route or anything. any thing that cant be stop with a cover 2 or cover 3 is cheese. if a player run with micheal vick the the player is cheesing . basically anything that require an adjustment to stop is cheesing. you cant beat any player with 900 or more skill point with a slant out or weak nano blitz. they would shut you down.

What? Im about done with this...running with a qb isnt cheese bc theres are ways to counter it(qb contain, qb spy). No one ever said they wanted their base D to stop everything your way off base man...

The slant out route EXPLOITED a defensive flaw in Madden. Why do you think it was removed in the first place? Football is a game of adjustments no one said they dont want to make adjustments, its those things in the game that we dont have a clear cut ADJUSTMENT for that annoys people!

Which i think is Tiburon's fault. Slant out routes could have been a ok route but instead of fixing the Defensive AI against that route they just remove it entirely...

Anyway..im done with this No Point wasting my breath trying to teach you about Madden and Football in general bc you clearly arent comprehendi...let me stop, adieu!

[Hiro1]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

. Recognize that playing 7 DBs provides an advantage for the defense (speed) but none of the disadvantages (size & strength).DBs essentially outperform LBs at playing LB. They beat o-linemen at the o-linemen's strength & DBs weakness. If playing extra DBs against power running formations actually worked, NFL coaches would be using that strategy. None of us are smarter than NFL coaches when it comes to NFL football. We're only better at Maddenball.

I agree with a lot of things you have stated. The bold is just simply not true though.

[atc43]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

LOL!!! I'm never sure if you all are serious or trolling because sometimes the responses don't seem to respond to the questions quoted. One more from me before I abandon this thread. The disconnect is beyond my comprehension. We know that the IE was implemented but only affects tackling. It does not affect blocking. Can you follow that to the fact that weight, strength, speed & angles are not taken into account in a realistic way when determining the outcome of blocking interaction? If so, can you follow that to the fact that when o-lineman engage with DBs, the outcomes are not realistic? If so... Recognize that playing 7 DBs provides an advantage for the defense (speed) but none of the disadvantages (size & strength). DBs essentially outperform LBs at playing LB. They beat o-linemen at the o-linemen's strength & DBs weakness. If playing extra DBs against power running formations actually worked, NFL coaches would be using that strategy. None of us are smarter than NFL coaches when it comes to NFL football. We're only better at Maddenball. On a 2nd note, Would you agree that there are limitations in the programming of Madden in that the AI can't react like a human and a gamer can only control 1 player at a time? Would you agree that we don't have all the tools necessary to instruct the AI players to react like a human would under all circumstances? If so, continue to follow... When you use a tactic that the AI can't recognize and/or react to appropriately, your opponent has to make an adjustment that is not based on any known football principles to counter it. What folks are saying is that they don't enjoy making those non-football adjustments and they don't like playing against them. Those Maddenball techniques are simply not fun for everyone, whether successful or not. One more example. Think about what a nano or shake blitz is... the gamer is trying to put a defender in a position where the AI lineman can't recognize him. As far as Madden AI is concerned, you can make a defender invisible. In the NFL, you can confuse a lineman, but you can't make a player invisible by moving him a few feet over. There are simply some tactics that are designed to take advantage of the weakness of the programming. Despite the fact that there are ways to counter these tactics, there are a segment of players that simply don't enjoying playing against people that look to exploit the GAME's shortcomings.

Wouldnt have even replied if I had read this first! Great Post