Speed is...well...speed!

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

I find that the "please" was an accurate account of applied cynicism. Take that as you like. I am fully aware of the effects of overtraining and adding too much lean muscle. I ran track in college and saw it happen several times to the point of where former hurdlers had to be moved to sprints. They developed power, yes, but lost flexability in the process. I posit it is far more rampant than what you may estimate.

That is indicative of improper training. It's not the added mass that caused the lack of flexibility, it was the lack of proper flexibility training that caused the decrease in flexibility.

Often times, changes in flexibility can be due to factors completely outside of the weight room. Added body fat, poor rest and nutrition habits, excessive alcohol, all can contribute to loss of flexibility.

I didn't say it didn't happen, just that if you train properly and take care of your body properly, added mass doesn't have to equal loss of flexibilty or speed.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

That is indicative of improper training. It's not the added mass that caused the lack of flexibility, it was the lack of proper flexibility training that caused the decrease in flexibility. Often times, changes in flexibility can be due to factors completely outside of the weight room. Added body fat, poor rest and nutrition habits, excessive alcohol, all can contribute to loss of flexibility. I didn't say it didn't happen, just that if you train properly and take care of your body properly, added mass doesn't have to equal loss of flexibilty or speed.

It doesn't have to, but the issue is also raised as to how much becomes too much for your body to properly move. For every David Boston who was jacked and still ran sub 4.5, there are many 6-2, 250lb players who lack the adequate power potential to move their weight. Proper training or not, the human body does have its limits.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

It doesn't have to, but the issue is also raised as to how much becomes too much for your body to properly move. For every David Boston who was jacked and still ran sub 4.5, there are many 6-2, 250lb players who lack the adequate power potential to move their weight. Proper training or not, the human body does have its limits.

Certainly, but proper training also involves proper testing after mesocyles and training protocols should change if counter-productive results are being observed.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

Certainly, but proper training also involves proper testing after mesocyles and training protocols should change if counter-productive results are being observed.

I wonder if sacrificing speed or mass would be a part of that?

The bottom line here is that I firmly believe that the 40s are a proper measure of average velocity over a distance. Agree to disagree once again.

[caballero]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

Sorry about the format - just found it easier to post that way, but I will address your bold answers/replies as numbered below:

Reply to:
Speed is...well...speed!

thanks, and good idea, my previous post was a mess!

1. none that I can think of at the moment, but I know where to find you!

I'm sure you'll be interested in this, in case you missed it:
http://www.easports.com/madden-nfl/n...-madden-nfl-13
(you can DL the full QB ratings spreadsheet, more positions coming through August)

2. agreed

3. see 7. & 9.

4. it is! where did I give you the impression I disagreed?
But first, the imporant ratings, how often is a Punter's STR relevant in the game?

5. "Speculation/opinion"
-Jason Baker, career & 2011 gross average 42.7 yards: 93KP (he's out of a job btw)
-Andy Lee, career 45.7, 50.9 gross in 2011 with record setting 44.0 net, 89 KP (?)
-Lechler, career 47.6, 50.8 gross, 94 KP. Why not 99 KP when no punter ever, even the great Ray Guy himself, has this kind of leg?
Notice that if you have Lechler at 99, Lee ends up at 94 and we're not so far appart.

6. you're the boss! I guess I'll be on the lookout for new/non injury ratings (haha nice move, way to keep me surfing your site, thanks muchly for all you do once again)

7. Ojinnaka ran 1.94, not 1.68, BIG difference, you substracted his Combine 20 split from his Proday 40 time!

My formula isn't as simple as 20-40 time =SPD rating though, it'd use the 10-40 time and possibly the 40 time itself.

Had forgotten about BJ Tucker, whatever happened to him?
No issue with him being a high SPD guy -ran 4.34/4.29- nor with Calico or Raymond, but let's focus on current NFL players, shall we? all three aren't going to be in M13 (or 14).

8. Thanks a lot! it's actually Joe Lefeged...

9. You counted his .165 reaction time for the 40 yard estimate...
Correct time would be... 4.10@40y !!!!! (1.54@10y, 2.47@20y)

Bolt bested that 9.69 time since, WR is now 9.58s: http://berlin.iaaf.org/mm/document/d...bolt_13666.pdf

gets you 1.59@10y 2.50@20y 4.11@40y

97 SPD you were saying?

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by caballero

Reply to: Speed is...well...speed! thanks, and good idea, my previous post was a mess! 1. none that I can think of at the moment, but I know where to find you! I'm sure you'll be interested in this, in case you missed it: http://www.easports.com/madden-nfl/n...-madden-nfl-13 (you can DL the full QB ratings spreadsheet, more positions coming through August) 2. agreed 3. see 7. & 9. 4. it is! where did I give you the impression I disagreed? But first, the imporant ratings, how often is a Punter's STR relevant in the game? 5. "Speculation/opinion" -Jason Baker, career & 2011 gross average 42.7 yards: 93KP (he's out of a job btw) -Andy Lee, career 45.7, 50.9 gross in 2011 with record setting 44.0 net, 89 KP (?) -Lechler, career 47.6, 50.8 gross, 94 KP. Why not 99 KP when no punter ever, even the great Ray Guy himself, has this kind of leg? Notice that if you have Lechler at 99, Lee ends up at 94 and we're not so far appart. 6. you're the boss! I guess I'll be on the lookout for new/non injury ratings (haha nice move, way to keep me surfing your site, thanks muchly for all you do once again) 7. Ojinnaka ran 1.94, not 1.68, BIG difference, you substracted his Combine 20 split from his Proday 40 time! My formula isn't as simple as 20-40 time =SPD rating though, it'd use the 10-40 time and possibly the 40 time itself. Had forgotten about BJ Tucker, whatever happened to him? No issue with him being a high SPD guy -ran 4.34/4.29- nor with Calico or Raymond, but let's focus on current NFL players, shall we? all three aren't going to be in M13 (or 14). 8. Thanks a lot! it's actually Joe Lefeged... 9. You counted his .165 reaction time for the 40 yard estimate... Correct time would be... 4.10@40y !!!!! (1.54@10y, 2.47@20y) Bolt bested that 9.69 time since, WR is now 9.58s: http://berlin.iaaf.org/mm/document/d...bolt_13666.pdf gets you 1.59@10y 2.50@20y 4.11@40y 97 SPD you were saying?

1. Yeah, I see the spreadsheets. I do not think they include free agents though.

3. It doesn't matter if it is relevant or not, every attribute should be backed up with correlating data. If a P shows he has better STR than players at other positions, it should reflect that.

5. First of all, I do not buy into those stats. I want to see scouting data for it. The averages are affected by field position. You could have a P with the best leg in the game, but his average would be down if he is always punting from the opposing 40 because his offense moves accross the 50. I NEVER buy into those common stats or base anything off of them. Scouting data is far more reliable IMO. We will again, have to continue to disagree here.

7. For Oninnaka, the best time was posted. Since the splits were not recorded we have no choice but to use his combine splits. Remember, the 40 is used for a different rating, so mixing and matching is OK. It may not have worked well for this example, sure, but the general idea is that even if you do not use the 40 times and instead use different combinations of split times, the results will differ.

Using 40-10 still gets you different results as I reported. Like I said, if you use the last 30 as the SPD rating, then BJ Tucker is the fastest player since 1998 to test and DeSean Jackson and CJ2K are now both less than elite. That doesn't make much sense, I know, but that data doesn't lie.

The whole point of FBG is to create something that is UNIVERSAL, ie no matter what time frame. Since the electronic timing only goes back to the late 90s, some of the times from Deion and Bo Jackson are unverifiable. Since 1998, however, we have verified results. The FBG database has over 18500 players right now. To only include those players in Madden would be unrealistic. I guess I prefer to include more players than exclude the majority. Some people like to set 99 at the best each year Madden comes out. I prefer to set 99 for the best all-time and work from there. It makes 90+ seem more special/elite and avoids the dreaded over inflation.

9. My mistake. 4.10 is correct.

So his ACC would still be pretty decent, but not elite, but his top speed would be amazing...better than that reported and unverified time of 4.12 by Bo Jackson.

Good thing he is not a football player otherwise we would have to re-scale the whole thing. Given the current scale, that would put him around 105 for SPD.

I wonder how much he would be deducted for running on a track though? If you recall in 2006 when Reggie Bush recorded a 4.33 on a track, his time was changed to 4.37. Maybe take off the another .04?

It still comes down to preference. I would love to use the top velocity, but we don't have that data. I still prefer the average velocity for SPD.

[DCEBB2001]

Hey just for fun let's do the new WR time with the splits.

10m = 1.89 - .146 = 1.744s/10m

1.59s for 10 yards. About 78 ACC.

40m = 4.64 - .146 = 4.494s/40m

4.109s for 40 yards. Pretty cool man. He did much better at maintaining the speed on this run if you look at those late splits.

[PGaither84]

I haven't read the entire thread, but simply... speed is not just speed.

99 speed with 99 acceleration is going to run a different 40 time than 99 speed 90 acceleration.

90 speed 99 acceleration will run 20-30 yards faster than 99 speed 90 acceleration... but 99 speed 90 acceleration is going to pass the other guy near the 40, so they will have similar 40 times but 10 points different in speed an acceleration.

So, if two guys run a 4.34 40 time, and let's say you assign them both 90 speed in Madden, but one gets 97 acceleration becasue of [let's say] the shuttle or cone drill [ I don't remember which] and the other gets an 88 acceleration for the same reason... then in Madden they will NOT run the same 4.34 40 time they ran in real life.

You cannot just say that a 40 time equals a certain madden speed number and/or acceleration number. It is not realistic to do so.

Here is a video example of just this:

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=738382887866

It is a test done by EA of a 99 speed 90 acceleration vs 90 speed 99 acceleration players. They start at the 10 and 40 yards later [at the 50] they are tied.

The 99 acceleration guy is leaving the 30 [20 yards] when the 99 speed guy just got there.

They clearly ran the same 40 time, but also have different speeds and accelerations. You cannot simply make a chart that says one 40 time means he is any faster or slower than another player.

[CigarCityBandit]

Awareness, Route running, Catching, and Acceleration should matter more at short distances or intermediate distances than at longer distances, and it should also factor in the attributes of the defenders the WR is interacting with and the current defense that is called that they are running as well as their assignment within it. Those 4 attributes including Speed should be used to calculate a WR's
chances of making a play and should vary through his pattern and be compared to the defenders' stats and info I mentioned above.
Then players like Jerry Rice who are savy at finding an exploit in the defense
would have the attributes matter that actually made him a great player.
At the middle to back end of Intermediate distance and extending to Long and Extreme Distance other attributes as well as the ones mentioned should be shuffled to reflect what a guy like say Randy Moss would take advantage of. And in the vertical game Moss is going to make use of an entirely different Alignment/hierarchy of the very same attributes give or take one or two. Again, those attributes in addition to the factors I mentioned about the defenders/defense should work to provide the realistic probable outcome in the vertical game.
Obviously Im no scientist so excuse me if this sounds way off but I think
most of you understand what Im getting at.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by PGaither84

I haven't read the entire thread, but simply... speed is not just speed. 99 speed with 99 acceleration is going to run a different 40 time than 99 speed 90 acceleration. 90 speed 99 acceleration will run 20-30 yards faster than 99 speed 90 acceleration... but 99 speed 90 acceleration is going to pass the other guy near the 40, so they will have similar 40 times but 10 points different in speed an acceleration. So, if two guys run a 4.34 40 time, and let's say you assign them both 90 speed in Madden, but one gets 97 acceleration becasue of [let's say] the shuttle or cone drill [ I don't remember which] and the other gets an 88 acceleration for the same reason... then in Madden they will NOT run the same 4.34 40 time they ran in real life. You cannot just say that a 40 time equals a certain madden speed number and/or acceleration number. It is not realistic to do so. Here is a video example of just this: http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=738382887866 It is a test done by EA of a 99 speed 90 acceleration vs 90 speed 99 acceleration players. They start at the 10 and 40 yards later [at the 50] they are tied. The 99 acceleration guy is leaving the 30 [20 yards] when the 99 speed guy just got there. They clearly ran the same 40 time, but also have different speeds and accelerations. You cannot simply make a chart that says one 40 time means he is any faster or slower than another player.

That's correct but the one problem is that in the game itself the SPD and ACC attributes work symbiotically. In other words, the SPD attributes and ACC attributes work together, and not separately. Therefore, we have to assign values to each. The 40 times are used to determine the average velocity. The 10 yard times are used to determine the initial burst.

In real life, however, the 20 yard split is also used to show the CONTINUATION of the acceleration phase of the run, as deemed by professional scouts. If Madden was able to "cap" the acceleration phase at say 10 or 20 yards, then we can use the first 10 and last 30 to determine ACC and SPD, respectively. As I mentioned earlier in the thread we cannot do this accurately and universally until we have a way to separate both ratings in game and have reliable data that can allow for universal measure, which I posit, can and should be attained. If we had every player's top velocity in MPH and splits, then we could do this. Since we are only given the distances and splits, we can only rationally use average velocity as a determining factor for each. The other issue is that we don't have split times for all prospects and have to estimate their ACC based on those times and averages from similar players with approximate 40 times, or look to other measures like the pro shuttle that also is used to evaluate acceleration.

In other words, the present limitations for the data sources and in-game measures are what is truly prohibiting the most realistic approach.

Since I prefer to use a verifiable method, this is the way I prefer to go about it. It really comes down to preference and definition. If you prefer to define speed as "top end speed" perhaps it is not even measurable given our data sets of 40 times being that Olympic athletes don't even achieve their maximum velocity until the 50-60m mark. And since we don't use this measure, perhaps using what we have is the way to go.

Also, look at the comparisons on earlier pages by using the different split times. Chris Johnson wouldn't even have been in the top 150 fastest players if we used his last 30 or last 20 yard splits aside from his ACC rating. Is that accurate? Is it accurate to say that he stopped accelerating at 10 yards? Most likely not, but once again the data seems to limit what we can and cannot interpolate.