why is sim a curse word in this game??

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by T-Moar

Several offensive and defensive systems have been run successfully using a limited number of plays run in different ways.

To me, this is still play variety. If you run the same overall play from different looks - it's still changing things up. It's not calling the same play from the same formation/package/etc.

"Specifically, how Manning and the Colts — for thirteen years — ran the same tiny little cluster of plays, from the same tiny little cluster of formations, with the most consistent personnel in the league, and brutalized NFL defenses year-in and year-out. "

Again, still play variety. A cluster implies multiple. You don't have to call from the front and the back and everything in between to have a varied offense.

Quote: Originally Posted by T-Moar

For example, if I'm in a 2nd & inches situation, I usually call some sort of deep pass, because it's a low-risk play in that scenario. You, on the other hand, might consider an inside run superior in that scenario. Either one would be realistic.

Completely agree here. Heck, didn't Madden comment in one of the older Maddens when you were in 2nd & short that you could, basically, take a chance or just pick up the first down?

In fact, if you did one or the other too consistently, you might become too predictable and get stopped on both 2nd and 3rd down.

Quote: Originally Posted by T-Moar

This is absolutely realistic. Almost every QB in the league does this, from Peyton Manning to Kyle Orton. Entire NFL systems have been developed out of this.

Peyton does more adjustments (and fake adjustments) at the line than just about any other QB. I also think there should be some sort of risk involved with false starts/confusion based on the AWR of the players. The Colts' O-Line is praised for being able to stay in their stances and composed while Peyton does his thing. Every QB, OL, offense in general in the game shouldn't be able to handle it equally well as seems to be the case in Madden. If I have a OL with 55 as my highest AWR and a rookie 60 AWR QB - I shouldn't be able to pull off replicating Peyton Manning.

On the other hand, if I have a 90+ AWR OL and QB - there should be a marked difference - and there doesn't seem to be. That's a problem, imo.

Quote: Originally Posted by T-Moar

Would you tell Buddy Ryan or Dick LeBeau that they couldn't coach against you in real life?

The problem is that they aren't coaching against lineman with the craptastic AI that Madden has. Granted, EA should fix it, but until they do...there might have to be a necessary balance because the way the OL plays is NOT realistic in this game.

Quote: Originally Posted by T-Moar

IMO, as a football head, if someone chooses to go for it on 4th, it is your job to stop them. I see statistics all over the place that say that NFL coaches should be going for 4th down more than they are. Why shouldn't I heed that advice in Madden?

More often is how often? If it's 15% in the NFL, more often might be 35%, not necessarily 100%.

Quote: Originally Posted by T-Moar

I know as many people that explicitly disagree with this as agree with it. There are several players that I've played with in the past that will actually take offense if you choose to drain the clock in the last minutes. Personally, I agree that it should be done, from a strategy standpoint, but it shouldn't be a rule. I play exclusively with the Texans. Back in Madden 08/09, do you have any idea how difficult it was to run out the clock with Ahman Green? That would have been a pipe dream. As a result, I often found myself passing in late-game situations, even though I was ahead, simply because I didn't trust my RB. Why risk allowing a comeback?

True - if you have a west coast team but iffy run game, a short pass/screen attack could eat the clock. A team should do what they can do best to close out the game. You can never have too many points, and if I can't stop them...

Quote: Originally Posted by T-Moar

Basically, it boils down to this: If it would work in real life, and if it's been tried in real life with some success, feel free to use it against me. If it's an AI exploit, don't.

But there's the rub.

Some things that work and exist in real life amount to AI...if not exploit in the classic sense, the AI is not able to deal with it as well as it needs to, and certainly not as well as players in real life. If I User blitz a LB "who's not supposed to blitz" (i.e. the play has him in man/zone/spy/contain), the OL often ignore him.

In real life, there's no such thing as "not supposed to blitz". Yet in Madden, there is.

[T-Moar]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

To me, this is still play variety. If you run the same overall play from different looks - it's still changing things up. It's not calling the same play from the same formation/package/etc. "Specifically, how Manning and the Colts — for thirteen years — ran the same tiny little cluster of plays, from the same tiny little cluster of formations, with the most consistent personnel in the league, and brutalized NFL defenses year-in and year-out. " Again, still play variety. A cluster implies multiple. You don't have to call from the front and the back and everything in between to have a varied offense.

That's your view of it. When I hear play variety, I tend to think "you can't call the same play twice," and to me, that over-complicates the game. True, someone shouldn't be able to call the same play over and over, but at the same time, insofar as they're not exploiting AI, you should be able to figure out how to stop it.

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Peyton does more adjustments (and fake adjustments) at the line than just about any other QB. I also think there should be some sort of risk involved with false starts/confusion based on the AWR of the players. The Colts' O-Line is praised for being able to stay in their stances and composed while Peyton does his thing. Every QB, OL, offense in general in the game shouldn't be able to handle it equally well as seems to be the case in Madden. If I have a OL with 55 as my highest AWR and a rookie 60 AWR QB - I shouldn't be able to pull off replicating Peyton Manning. On the other hand, if I have a 90+ AWR OL and QB - there should be a marked difference - and there doesn't seem to be. That's a problem, imo.

While I agree that Peyton Manning does call an extraordinary number of audibles, the audible is still a tool in the repertoire of pretty much every QB in the league, outside of maybe TJ Yates and Alex Smith. And while I agree with you about making AWR matter for audibles, I'm not exactly sure how it should be done.

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The problem is that they aren't coaching against lineman with the craptastic AI that Madden has. Granted, EA should fix it, but until they do...there might have to be a necessary balance because the way the OL plays is NOT realistic in this game.

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More often is how often? If it's 15% in the NFL, more often might be 35%, not necessarily 100%.

I've seen 100% thrown around a bit, but in general, the advice is something like going for anything within 5 yards, regardless of field position - basically, exactly the "Bill Belichick" model that the OP was talking about.

Quote:

But there's the rub. Some things that work and exist in real life amount to AI...if not exploit in the classic sense, the AI is not able to deal with it as well as it needs to, and certainly not as well as players in real life. If I User blitz a LB "who's not supposed to blitz" (i.e. the play has him in man/zone/spy/contain), the OL often ignore him. In real life, there's no such thing as "not supposed to blitz". Yet in Madden, there is.

In my book, I consider that an AI exploit. I can see what you mean about it being a grey area, though. Also, since I have javascript disabled and can't actually click the "like" button, I feel the need to let you know that I like your post. It is the kind of constructive conversation that this board needs more of.

Also, on a tangential note, I have a problem with FIFA being touted as the model for sim Madden to follow. In the Madden world, "sim" is defined by most as strategy-based gameplay designed to reflect real life. FIFA, on the other hand, is sorely lacking in the strategy department, and entirely based on stick skills. The best FIFA player I know doesn't even use tactics. At all. I see what's being said about the animations, but at the same time, physics is not all that's needed to make a sports game. I'd rather play something strategy-heavy like Football Manager or -gulp- Madden than something like FIFA any day.

[ForUntoOblivionSoar∞]

Quote: Originally Posted by TWOSILK

When people hear the word sim they instantly think: boring, mundane, and no way in hell thats a fun way to play. I dont think you could be more off base, now let me preface this with I'm 36 and dont have time to scour the internet looking for the hottest new "madden" play or the new "madden" blitz. So yes i just want to sit down and play some football, not madden, now playing sim you can blitz, you can run tosses, you can run counters, you can call 4 verts if you want. But the point is to call all of that in a game, not pick one and run it over and over and over. When most around here say we want sim football, this is what we are referring to(other sim heads chime in) 1. Play variety 2. Realistic play calling(plays that fit the down and distance) 3. no 15 hot routes at the line of scrimmage 4. no excessive blitzing, no one should blitz all game 5. no actions that PURPOSELY manipulate the a.i. if you are going to beat me, then beat me not the a.i. 6. no you tube passing schemes its not realistic to know a play will work before you snap the ball 7. no huddle all game, sprinkled in thats fine 8. punt on 4th down, now 4th and inches, your call, have no problem with someone going for a 4th down or two if it makes football sense(dont use belichick) has your selling point lol 9. respect your opponent, if you are winning late in the game by a large margin, why pour it on, win your game and move on. 10. have fun!!! now i have a question for the freestyle community: How do you guys have fun playing a game with predetermined outcomes?? I mean you call a play knowing that it will work, like some blitzes you know will work(unless i slide protect, leave all my receivers in to block and ask the referee to trip the DE) You know what i mean. How is this fun?? running the same plays over and over and over how do you gain enjoyment out of that??

+ a million to you sir. The only reason I play football video games is because I want to simulate real football. If I want to play someone just to beat them at all costs, I'd go outside and play basketball or flag football. Video game football is the closest I'll ever get to the NFL, so I try to play the only NFL video game simulation like an NFL simulation. I am competitive, but if you're turning Madden into something that only passingly resembles football, why even bother?

[kjcheezhead]

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No 15 hot routes at the line of scrimmage

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This is absolutely realistic. Almost every QB in the league does this, from Peyton Manning to Kyle Orton. Entire NFL systems have been developed out of this. See my first point.

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No huddle all game, sprinkled in is fine

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See: K-gun. It's a viable strategy, IMO. I would never do it that often, because it tires out the Offense insanely fast, but if you have the kind of offensive depth that can pull a constant no-huddle off, more power to you, IMO. Especially since that's the only way to win with certain teams.

The problem with so many hot routes and no huddle all game is that it's not realistic in madden. You can make 15 hot routes in 5 seconds in the game. When Peyton does it he has to step out of the pocket, give hand signals or call out a new play. The time he takes to do that is time the defense has to make their own adjustments. Time that Madden doesn't allow the defense in the video game.

Another issue with no huddle is the changing formations. NFL teams don't no huddle with a 4 wr and call a single back formation play. It shouldn't happen in Madden either. Either you should only be able to call plays that work with the personnel on the field or there should animations showing players running on/off the field to get the right package in allowing the defense time to make their own changes.

This part of the game is as broken as the player movement and footplanting as far as realism goes imo.

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8. punt on 4th down, now 4th and inches, your call, have no problem with someone going for a 4th down or two if it makes football sense(dont use belichick) has your selling point lol

Quote:

IMO, as a football head, if someone chooses to go for it on 4th, it is your job to stop them. I see statistics all over the place that say that NFL coaches should be going for 4th down more than they are. Why shouldn't I heed that advice in Madden?

I don't really disagree with allowing people to go for it on 4th down. The problem I have is that the guy usually quits right after he failed on his first possession and gave you the ball on his own 20. It'd just be nice to a a fair play option back in the game to deal with this.

[Jarodd21]

I been saying it for years the BIGGEST problem with online play is the gameplay being on All-Pro. I still don't understand why alot of people haven't recognized that this is the main problem. It's simply too easy to exploit the AI because they don't react properly to anything. When the ball is in the air they just breakdown and stare at the WR while he catches the ball and don't react for the tackle half the time after the catch until I switch. When the ball carrier is right in there face running the ball they'll just let him run right by him sometimes without doing anything unless I switch to him and make the play. Your Olineman just watch the DEs go right by them straight to your QB for an easy sack. They freeze and react like zombies to everything. I finally caved in and started playing alot of ranked online games and instantly noticed the difference in gameplay since I only play on All-Madden in offline or some unranked online games with some good players I've met over the years playing online. They gameplay is just flat out HORRIBLE on All-Pro in head to head games.

If they gave you the OPTION to play ranked games on All-Madden you would hear less complaints about guys using cheesy tactics , or money plays to exloit the AI because the defenders react better to everything instead of playing like a bunch lost high school players on All-Pro. As long as the gamplay is on All-Pro for online play without the option to play ranked games on All-Madden you will hear the exact same complaints every year.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jarodd21

I been saying it for years the BIGGEST problem with online play is the gameplay being on All-Pro. I still don't understand why alot of people haven't recognized that this is the main problem. It's simply too easy to exploit the AI because they don't react properly to anything. When the ball is in the air they just breakdown and stare at the WR while he catches the ball and don't react for the tackle half the time after the catch until I switch. When the ball carrier is right in there face running the ball they'll just let him run right by him sometimes without doing anything unless I switch to him and make the play. Your Olineman just watch the DEs go right by them straight to your QB for an easy sack. They freeze and react like zombies to everything. I finally caved in and started playing alot of ranked online games and instantly noticed the difference in gameplay since I only play on All-Madden in offline or some unranked online games with some good players I've met over the years playing online. They gameplay is just flat out HORRIBLE on All-Pro in head to head games. If they gave you the OPTION to play ranked games on All-Madden you would hear less complaints about guys using cheesy tactics , or money plays to exloit the AI because the defenders react better to everything instead of playing like a bunch lost high school players on All-Pro. As long as the gamplay is on All-Pro for online play without the option to play ranked games on All-Madden you will hear the exact same complaints every year.

That's the issue I have with difficulty levels in sports games.

The game should play to the principles of the sport regardless of difficulty. What difficulty should impact is stuff like button press and sticks timing and the strategy/execution used by the AI opponent (better play selection, better adjustments, etc), but not the abilities of the AI controlled players on either team.

Basically, just make it so that at 50, you have more lenient user mechanics (may not need the L-stick, more window to use a "move" as a ball carrier or rushing, etc) while at 25, the windows get smaller and you need to use more of the mechanics to succeed instead of now where it might also put you in All-Madden and now suddenly every AI controlled player plays better. They should play smart anyway. Sliders should only impact button/sticks execution (and execution simulation in the case of offline, something like 80 break tackles means the AI hits the proper window for using a stiff arm or juke move 80% of the time and that's it. Success should be based on football things like abilities of the players in question, pursuit angle, etc).

Things like in Jarodd's post should not be happening. Leave player AI and behaviors in the realm of football, no matter what the sliders add up to.

[Dj_MyTime]

Quote: Originally Posted by TWOSILK

4. no excessive blitzing, no one should blitz all game

Don't agree here and I am 'SIM' this games 4-man rush is non-existent. Most good users will pick you apart without a consistent pass-rush. I think where most SIM crowds create a disconnect is when they make statements like this.

Is a always rushing 5 considered excessive blitzing? I would think not, is maintaing pass rush SIM I think so. SIM has become a 'curse word' because it is too subjective to one's personal ideals. Many could argue that blitzing regularly is THEIR defense, just because we're simulating a real-life sport doesn't mean we have to emulate it.

Users need to be able to feel comfortable running what they're comfortable with. If a user masks his inability to player user defense by blitzing is there something wrong with that, or if a user decides to play 8-man zones all game and rely on great user converage is there then something wrong with that?

For me I'll just say I play fair. I won't rely on tactics to manipulate the A.I. etc. but if I notice you never leave in protection, or all your routes are 10+ deep I'm bringing five and six each time I feel you're passing til I'm shown you can adjust to pressure. To me that's just common sense.

A lot of times I feel like SIM is a way fro guys who DO NOT adjust to another user to say "well he blitzed me all game that's why I lost, such and such is UNSIM". IMO that's total bs, it's UNSIM not to adjust that's football.

If you run a base 4-3 vs my 4-5 WR sets, I will run some, but I will abuse your base defensive coverage all game due to mismatches in personnel. You can call running 4-5 WR all game is UNSIM but so is running 4-3/3-4 vs each offensive personnel set. (I only use this example because a well-respected SIM user actually did that and complained--I will drop no name)

[Jarodd21]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

That's the issue I have with difficulty levels in sports games. The game should play to the principles of the sport regardless of difficulty. What difficulty should impact is stuff like button press and sticks timing and the strategy/execution used by the AI opponent (better play selection, better adjustments, etc), but not the abilities of the AI controlled players on either team. Basically, just make it so that at 50, you have more lenient user mechanics (may not need the L-stick, more window to use a "move" as a ball carrier or rushing, etc) while at 25, the windows get smaller and you need to use more of the mechanics to succeed instead of now where it might also put you in All-Madden and now suddenly every AI controlled player plays better. They should play smart anyway. Sliders should only impact button/sticks execution (and execution simulation in the case of offline, something like 80 break tackles means the AI hits the proper window for using a stiff arm or juke move 80% of the time and that's it. Success should be based on football things like abilities of the players in question, pursuit angle, etc). Things like in Jarodd's post should not be happening. Leave player AI and behaviors in the realm of football, no matter what the sliders add up to.

The thing about online play is they try to cater to the casual crowd a little too much and that's the main reason why ranked games is on All-Pro. They made it easier for guys to play offense which is what All-Pro is about but alot of casual gamers couldn't handle playing on All-Madden because of the tougher defense.. You have to really use strategy against another good USER.. You can't just go out there picking any play and just throwing up the pass with a 50/50 chance of coming down with it in traffic like you can on All-Pro.. It's terrible and frustrating to see the behavior of your AI players in online game but I know the reason(All-Pro) why the gamplay is like that.

You are definitely right though.. The AI players shouldn't play like that regardless of the difficulty but that's the way it's always been and most likely always will be as long as there's a higher difficulty to play on.. I just wish they would give us an option to play rank games online on All-Madden so some of us gamers wouldn't have to deal with the flaws of All-Pro unless they want to continue to hear gamers complain about exploits and moneys because of All-Pro..

[BrianFifaFan]

Quote: Originally Posted by T-Moar

I have a problem with FIFA being touted as the model for sim Madden to follow. In the Madden world, "sim" is defined by most as strategy-based gameplay designed to reflect real life. FIFA, on the other hand, is sorely lacking in the strategy department, and entirely based on stick skills. The best FIFA player I know doesn't even use tactics. At all. I see what's being said about the animations, but at the same time, physics is not all that's needed to make a sports game. I'd rather play something strategy-heavy like Football Manager or -gulp- Madden than something like FIFA any day.

I actually agree. I was referring to player movement, specifically. Now when it comes to actual simulation of the sport and it's intricacies, I would say you are dead on with both Fifa and Madden having the "bare-bones" approach to depth, with Madden simply having more plays available. I think that's inherent rub in the whole design process. With Fifa it's "do we create a game that only gives up one goal a game off of a set piece or a perfect through ball, like real life? In Madden, do we have the game be a "3 yards and a cloud of dust or a passing fest?" "Do we make play-calling be the end all and be all, regardless of stick skills?" I can see the inherent "catch-22."

I feel the Madden team tries hard to find a balance where a 6 year old can play this game. I also can see where the older, knowledgeable gamer can use his brain, as well as his sticks. My problem lies in the fact that, even if Madden tries to pursue that "stategic" level of play, it's not realistic. It's just as vanilla as Fifa, meaning that line play doesn't have much bearing on the success of failure of a given play, as well as gap control or secondary coverage. It's more about an artificial "NFL-like" reality, where stick skills and AI cheats and animation tricks like warping cover for shallow AI. When the whistle blows I still feel that Fifa shines brighter in NPC character movement, as well as NHL. Player positioning and movement are far more natural. But I see a light, hopefully, at the end of tunnel. The new focus on Read And React D gives me GREAT hope for the future. It's a great start. Now it has to be implemented for all 22 guys; OL/DL, LB, RB's and all. Procedural Awareness, as opposed to simple physics is where Madden's (and all sports games) futures lie. Then if you call a play it will either succeed or fail based on this simple, realistic parameter: a player has to see it, to react to it. This is "sim" and the end of cheats, either human or CPU.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jarodd21

The thing about online play is they try to cater to the casual crowd a little too much and that's the main reason why ranked games is on All-Pro. They made it easier for guys to play offense which is what All-Pro is about but alot of casual gamers couldn't handle playing on All-Madden because of the tougher defense.. You have to really use strategy against another good USER.. You can't just go out there picking any play and just throwing up the pass with a 50/50 chance of coming down with it in traffic like you can on All-Pro.. It's terrible and frustrating to see the behavior of your AI players in online game but I know the reason(All-Pro) why the gamplay is like that. You are definitely right though.. The AI players shouldn't play like that regardless of the difficulty but that's the way it's always been and most likely always will be as long as there's a higher difficulty to play on.. I just wish they would give us an option to play rank games online on All-Madden so some of us gamers wouldn't have to deal with the flaws of All-Pro unless they want to continue to hear gamers complain about exploits and moneys because of All-Pro..

While I agree with for the most part about AI playing tougher on All-Madden opposed All-Pro even in User v User games, there are still things I just don't get. Not only are online ranked All-Pro but I have heard Ian say that the adaptive AI in User v User games is intentionally different and diminished than CPU v User.

When I hear things like that it definitely illustrates the point about catering to gamers so they can be successful in the game. If the standard for implementing the NFL aspects into Madden is "fun", which I think is another word for success with some people, instead of realistically, this type of stuff will not change.

I wish I could find that quote I once had in my sig where someone in a lead position working on FIFA said something to the affect of, they don't worry about attracting casuals at this point because there is still so much real football/soccer left to add and get right for the hardcore football/soccer gamers. Typing that just irritated me because that mantra should be the exact same way for Madden. SMMFH.