Madden Serenity

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

I wasn't saying that they should not have fixed the pass trajectories or the "super LBs". They absolutely had to fix that. What I am saying is that it's not something that should be advertised as a big ticket item. Just like gang tackles and a real pocket, these are things that should be a part of any football game, and should not be considered big "back of the box features". Same thing with penalties and player movement. Also, my point was that we shouldn't be made to feel greatful that we got pass trajectories fixed in place of line interaction, basic player movement, penalty fixes and a challenge system.

Maybe not, but I'm sure there are a lot of people who do feel, not grateful, but good, that pass trajectories and leaping LB's are fixed.

I think you would agree that pass trajectories and leaping LB's were/are a big deal to the members of this website and other Madden sites. If you put that on the back of the box, aren't you advertising to the core community and beyond, that these features are in the game?

I'm sure June 4th will answer player movement, if it is there and I'm sure whatever feature that is, will be on the back of the back with connected careers, etc.....

[RGiles36]

Quote: Originally Posted by unfriendlyghst

Aha! The pool of gamers used to be more thatn 12 million. But thanks to the liscence and EA focusing all attentions to Madden, they have driven that number down to 5 million themselves. Before the liscence, you had a CHOICE in what NFL game you played. Diferent styles of gameplay, arcade, sim, different franchise features, on and on and on. Fever, Madden, 2K5, Blitz, NFL Street.

Does that speak to the quality of Madden, or is that evidence that sports games aren't as popular as they once were?

Having read through recent OS and Pastapadre articles, there's some concern that NBA2K could go away a few years down the line. The Xbox 360 may not have baseball game next year allegedly. Aside from evidence of business mismanagement, there seems to be a general sentiment that the market just isn't there to support multiple licensed versions of a professional sport.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

Not ruffling feathers, but I have to ask: how should the features have been marketed? Should they not have been mentioned? What's worthy of being on the back of the box of yearly sports game?

What, fixing what amounts to being a bug?

I think what he's saying is that realism of player movement in a realistic football game shouldn't be the big thing.

It should be a given. Put the pass trajectories there because that's potentially something unique even among realistic football games to have that kind of control, especially if it's done in an intuitive way.

But realistic player movement being the big thing would be like The Show putting "Our CF can't instantly jump on top of the wall to rob home runs!" or "the shortstop no longer makes leaping catches on balls that should be flyballs to the left fielder!" Those are a given in any realistic baseball game.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

Not ruffling feathers, but I have to ask: how should the features have been marketed? Should they not have been mentioned? What's worthy of being on the back of the box of yearly sports game?

There's nothing wrong with them marketing their "changes". However, the passing trajectories is one of THE changes. How much else is there? When I saw the videos I was glad they fixed it, but then I saw the new passing mechanic and the "throw my receiver open" which just made me cringe. Then i saw that line play was still completely terrible along with the zig zag running. The penalties have not been changed, along with a working challenge system. Sidelines still look like dead and so far the commentary has been less than stellar after being told we have had crappy commentary for 3 years because they were hard at work on the "new" technology. In reality, how much has really changed? There isn't much so you get pass trajectories as the big back of the box feature.

Like I said, it would have been much better if the back of the box read - New passing trajectories, new passing system, realistic player movement, realistic challenge system, interactive sidelines, most realistic line play in a game, improved tackling and collision system.

Like I said in my original post, the changes USUALLY work towards an improved game (and I stress usually), but they are not big enough to make the game feel complete. Instead of passing trajectory constantly frustrating me, now zig zag/swerve running and crappy line play will continue to be the source. When do we get something that has all of these areas covered? Once they complete these areas (and get back to square one) THEN they can start adding some really cool enhancements - things like a spectator mode and really sprucing up the franchise capabilities both on and offline.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

What, fixing what amounts to being a bug? I think what he's saying is that realism of player movement in a realistic football game shouldn't be the big thing. It should be a given. Put the pass trajectories there because that's potentially something unique even among realistic football games to have that kind of control, especially if it's done in an intuitive way. But realistic player movement being the big thing would be like The Show putting "Our CF can't instantly jump on top of the wall to rob home runs!" or "the shortstop no longer makes leaping catches on balls that should be flyballs to the left fielder!" Those are a given in any realistic baseball game.

On the back of FIFA 12's box, it boast groundbreaking Player Impact Engine, delivering real-world physicality in every interaction on the pitch.

Are you saying Madden shouldn't put that on the back of their box, if they obtain a feature like that?

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by rgiles36

It begs the question, are we the ones who look at things in a vacuum?

Doesn't matter to me if I am.

I want a realistic football game, and if that means I'm looking at things "in a vacuum" so be it.

I'm not going to change what I want most in a game just so I can "not be in a vacuum." But a lot of things I want in Madden are just basic to football AND football games. Players moving in realistic ways and ratings that truly capture individual skill sets and fewer "carbon copy" players (really see it with the Madden draft kids - I just scouted 3 players that look like guys I already have...it's like "all good players look like this", "all average players look like this", etc)

So if wanting basic realistic football elements and principles in a football game that's supposed to be more realistic (i.e. not like NFL Blitz), and wanting diverse skills sets to be able to shine and show up on the field, making me change, perhaps significantly, what I need/want/must do in building a team is looking at things in the a vacuum...

...So be it.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

The best I can explain it Big, is that everyone is different. Yes, EA tries to cater being authentic to the NFL, but it also caters to the other 5 million buyers that purchase the game. There are many different subsets of groups out there and trying to appease all the groups is a difficult task. Your take on what represents the NFL might be different than someone else who doesn't visit internet message boards take on what true NFL sim is. Sounds to me like your not believing in the vision that you once had for Cam Weber and I don't mean that in a bad way.

I feel like you are taking my point out of context and generalizing it into some subjective expectation. However, I am referring to representation of football fundamentals that are definitive.

I want to see that same direct approach taken in relation to the football fundamentals in Madden. Some explanation of what, when and why they plan on addressing or not, better representation of football fundamentals.

As far as Cam Weber goes, it's his stated commitment to NFL authenticity that is in part responsible for my request for a clarification. I tried to be somewhat down the middle in this thread but to put it bluntly, EA/Tiburon keeps soliciting Madden to gamers that want realistic NFL football, as that game but are delivering a fundamentally unrealistic product, imo. As much as some people want to lay all that blame on ignorant, gullible and unreasonable consumers, this is America where companies hold some accountability for not providing what they promote, imo.

I am trying to choose my words carefully in this reply because I am attacking the message, not the messenger but this "subjective" excuse is not some blanket explanation and is just another EA talking point, imo. Like I have stated before, balancing fun/realistic game play is subjective but that hasn't stopped EA/Tiburon from trying to achieve it on the All-Pro default setting, so I don't really understand why anyone would keep bringing that up as some kind of justification for how Madden turns out. However, run fits, gap assignments, DPI, basic player movement, double team pass blocking, blah, blah, blah, fundamental football representation is not subjective, they are definitive for emulating football but are lacking in Madden.

I am trying my best not to turn this into a thread about naming Madden's fundamental football flaws because that has been done ad nauseum but I don't understand why anyone would try to discuss the current state of Madden as if this realities do not exist. Again, my point is, I would like to see EA/Tiburon do a better job of setting the expectations for fundamental football representation in Madden so that gamers can make a reasonable assessment of how NFL based Madden is intended to be.

Like KJ stated, as it stands right now, EA/Tiburon is claiming they intend for Madden to be everything to everybody, which by your own admission is "difficult", I say impossible, so I would like to see that stop. If not, then I would like to see others stop carrying EA/Tiburon's water when gamers call the companies bluff and expect the "difficult" impossible Madden, that the company keeps claiming to intend to deliver every year.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

On the back of FIFA 12's box, it boast groundbreaking Player Impact Engine, delivering real-world physicality in every interaction on the pitch. Are you saying Madden shouldn't put that on the back of their box, if they obtain a feature like that?

No, because physics is unique/new innovation in sports gaming due to technology not limiting it's ability to be processed at the required fps for smooth gameplay, especially on a console. So a company achieving that should boast it. That's an innovative way to achieve what's probably basic soccer principles (I don't know a thing about soccer).

And it's ironic it's another EA game that did it - why doesn't Madden have it?

The fact they removed an animation that was ridiculous to have in a realistic football game shouldn't be "HEY LOOK AT WHAT WE DID" but just something that shouldn't have been in to begin with. Just like if they take out the LBs that throw forearms to "tackle" people - should that be on the box? "Hey, we no longer have players making "tackles" that are banned in the NFL!"

[kjcheezhead]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

True but at what point does it becomes false or intentionally misleading? Most posts I read that have a negative or disappointed theme are based on what EA promoted Madden to be but didn't deliver on. I would like to know from EA is the bar for Madden video game fun with a NFL theme or NFL simulation fun, which comes through realism. If it's the former, then there is very little that separates Madden from NFL Blitz but at least be real about it and if it's the latter, then gamers need to keep criticizing EA about the lack of realism in Madden.

This would be the most foolish thing EA could ever do for their product. Think about what this would mean for them to answer this either way. If the come out and say they are going to make the most realistic passing game ever, they lose the ear of the tourney guys that love doing ridiculous user catching. If they admit they are going to tone it down a bit but still keep pass interference out of the game and unrealistic user catching in they risk losing the simhead that begs for realism.

Why would a company risk upsetting either base when you can avoid it and get both sales?

RGiles

Quote:

Honestly, sometimes I think it's us at OS who need the reality check. We have a standard to which we hold the game too, and it's a great thing that we have EA's ear to a degree. At the same time, OS is one of the larger gaming communities and it has - what - maybe 100K members. 5M people continue to run out and buy the game.

I am fully aware of we are the minority and that this game will never strive for the realism I want. Still, my only option in football gaming is to try to stress to the developers how important it is for me that certain areas of the game do achieve a much higher level than realism that it has now.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

No, because physics is unique/new innovation in sports gaming due to technology not limiting it's ability to be processed at the required fps for smooth gameplay, especially on a console. So a company achieving that should boast it. That's an innovative way to achieve what's probably basic soccer principles (I don't know a thing about soccer). And it's ironic it's another EA game that did it - why doesn't Madden have it? The fact they removed an animation that was ridiculous to have in a realistic football game shouldn't be "HEY LOOK AT WHAT WE DID" but just something that shouldn't have been in to begin with. Just like if they take out the LBs that throw forearms to "tackle" people - should that be on the box? "Hey, we no longer have players making "tackles" that are banned in the NFL!"

Because my writing is poor at best at times, this is really what I was trying to get across. Thank you KB and my apologies to Russ and Road for not being able to articulate very well

also, don't think that by what I am saying I am not pleased to see they addressed pass trajectory. I will say I've learned to not be happy about anything they SAY until I can actually try the implementation. I got burned by that in Madden 11 when i finally made my return to Madden.