Chess not checkers/Cleats not iceskates. The problem with player movement

[ODogg]

I 100% agree with you guys that I'm sick of the lack of momentum and the zig-zagging and nonsense BUT I'd just like to point out that, as a veteran of these forums, I distinctly recall the PS2 days when momentum was added the OUTRAGE that exploded on these forums from people who complained that their players now were like turning large boats and they didn't feel as if they were controlling their players.

The outrage from those folks on here and from casual folks was much more than from folks like us in this thread who supported momentum, realistic running even though it means a bit of loss of user control.

It's for that reason that this request of ours, to go back to realistic momentum, is never going to happen...not on this gen or next....

Sorry guys, but that's the truth and it's not a good truth for us...

[Illustrator76]

Quote: Originally Posted by ODogg

I 100% agree with you guys that I'm sick of the lack of momentum and the zig-zagging and nonsense BUT I'd just like to point out that, as a veteran of these forums, I distinctly recall the PS2 days when momentum was added the OUTRAGE that exploded on these forums from people who complained that their players now were like turning large boats and they didn't feel as if they were controlling their players. The outrage from those folks on here and from casual folks was much more than from folks like us in this thread who supported momentum, realistic running even though it means a bit of loss of user control. It's for that reason that this request of ours, to go back to realistic momentum, is never going to happen...not on this gen or next.... Sorry guys, but that's the truth and it's not a good truth for us...

I can't disagree with you on the reasons why momentum was axed, because honestly, I don't remember. But you are completely wrong in that EA never tried again, and I am not sure where you are getting that idea. EA tried to institute the locomotion player movement system in Madden 11, yet they botched it up horribly and then they tried to patch it, but that really didn't do much. Defensive players would attempt to "break down" and change directions while the Offensive players could zig-zag like crazy. At the end of the day, I kind of agree in that EA may not try to institute something like "physics" again because of the more "casual" crowd complaining, but I also think that EA just flat doesn't have the ability to do foot-planting and momentum correctly, even though they have done better in the past than what we currently have in Madden.

[BezO]

EA can't claim to want to make a realistic football game & please arcadey fans in this way. They have to pick a side. If their goal is to make a twitchy game for arcadey fans, then say that & be done with it. But if they're true to their word, make the game as realistic as possible & let fans fall in love with it.

I had to go watch some last gen Madden to see the footwork. From what I can tell, players were just slowed down on turns. I didn't see much foot planting & players weren't moving as quickly as they should. I can see why folks would complain.

IMO, if players move like they do IRL, no one is going to complain. EA has to do it right & not over do the momentum. If quicker players like LeSean McCoy are able to cut, juke & change direction like they do IRL, who's going to complain? If "delays" in player response are explained by animations, who's going to complain? If defenders, AI & human controlled, have to adhere to the same rules, what is there to complain about?

I compare it to MLB The Show. No one is complaining that outfielders don't release the ball immediately when trying to make strong throws. If you're running away from the infield to catch the ball and you want to make a strong throw to home, your player catches the ball, gathers & takes a hop step before releasing the ball. I haven't heard a negative peep about it.

NFL athletes are amazing. Many of us watch every Sunday. We don't watch because players are moseying around. We watch because football is an explosive game. Limiting Madden to that amazing, but limited explosiveness won't offend too many.

[Big FN Deal]

For clarification, I am one of those people Illy is referring to that goes on and on about wanting a more realistically limited game play view option. lol

So I wasn't saying that "god view" is not an issue for me because it is, I was just saying it wasn't on the same priority level as improving player movement.

To ODogg's point, the fact that Madden has achieved better player movement in the past and removed it do to people complaining, instead of restricting the most realistic player movement to specific settings, is my issue.

I can not understand why anyone thinks or would reiterate what seems to be yet another EA/Tiburon talking point, ie excuse about why Madden is not currently capable of optimal realistic game play on any setting. The "majority will hate it" and "it's not casual friendly" should be irrelevant if a game provides options.

I am not advocating for EA/Tiburon to disrupt how other people play the game, I am just asking for a setting tuned with optimal realism and/or a way for the community to create/share this setting themselves.

Someone, please explain to me what's so unreasonable or impossible about that.

[SteelerSpartan]

Quote: Originally Posted by CRMosier_LM

You can say the same thing about the qb seeing both sides of the field from left flat to right flat and throw to either at will. To me that is worse than player movement yet most don't want to see that change. NOT saying that player movement isn't an issue because I want to see it tightened up as well. Just i feel personally there are more pressing issues that don't represent realism. Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

I loved the cone an looking off defenders.....an wonder how many people realized

1. you could pre set your 1st read before the snap
2.Quickly switch to any WR with a trigger+WRsButton...


As for the larger debate about EA not wanting 2k level Sim...I think maybe just maybe that might be changing

I say that because this year they've made two "supposed" changes to the QB play that I never thought they would make(I say supposed because I have to see this to believe it)

1. They Reduced the Qb Sliding speed down while in the pocket
2. They took away the Qbs ability to set up quickly an throw across the field while sprinting in the opposite direction

As I said earlier, those were changes I never thought they would make because I thought they loved that Roll N Chuck Cheese style in their game

[SteelerSpartan]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

For clarification, I am one of those people Illy is referring to that goes on and on about wanting a more realistically limited game play view option. lol So I wasn't saying that "god view" is not an issue for me because it is, I was just saying it wasn't on the same priority level as improving player movement. To ODogg's point, the fact that Madden has achieved better player movement in the past and removed it do to people complaining, instead of restricting the most realistic player movement to specific settings, is my issue. I can not understand why anyone thinks or would reiterate what seems to be yet another EA/Tiburon talking point, ie excuse about why Madden is not currently capable of optimal realistic game play on any setting. The "majority will hate it" and "it's not casual friendly" should be irrelevant if a game provides options. I am not advocating for EA/Tiburon to disrupt how other people play the game, I am just asking for a setting tuned with optimal realism and/or a way for the community to create/share this setting themselves. Someone, please explain to me what's so unreasonable or impossible about that.

For sure....I think the hardcore Sports Gamer loves having their own tools to scale to their liking

NBA 2k has tons of sliders/tendencies/options to flip on an off.....an the OS community has had a field day with them....

Then you have what I think is the epitome of a game that you can craft into your own in Forza an Gran Turismo.....You can make those games uber sim or uber noob friendly

[tazdevil20]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

For clarification, I am one of those people Illy is referring to that goes on and on about wanting a more realistically limited game play view option. lol So I wasn't saying that "god view" is not an issue for me because it is, I was just saying it wasn't on the same priority level as improving player movement. To ODogg's point, the fact that Madden has achieved better player movement in the past and removed it do to people complaining, instead of restricting the most realistic player movement to specific settings, is my issue. I can not understand why anyone thinks or would reiterate what seems to be yet another EA/Tiburon talking point, ie excuse about why Madden is not currently capable of optimal realistic game play on any setting. The "majority will hate it" and "it's not casual friendly" should be irrelevant if a game provides options. I am not advocating for EA/Tiburon to disrupt how other people play the game, I am just asking for a setting tuned with optimal realism and/or a way for the community to create/share this setting themselves. Someone, please explain to me what's so unreasonable or impossible about that.

Actually, it isn't really reasonable. You can't provide options for as much as you are describing. The amount of work going into creating running animations and player movement is quite hefty, and there is no way they are going to provide numerous options for it.

Ok - now that I am done playing devil's advocate what they could do is expose the tuning capabilities they have which adjust the running styles and the momentum/weight/physics and allow gamers to adjust the sensitivity of those movements (much like the sensitivity in call of duty). What woud be great is if they provided a simulation setting that when you selected it, it would adjust all of the tunable elements to a default simulation level, allowing users and league commissioners to adjust them to their liking. You could theoretically have a league with no penalties or running momentum if you wanted. I'd be willing to bet that none of the developers there even thought of that.

EDIT: One big assumption I made was that their tools are written correctly in that all things can be adjusted simply by adjusting values. That's a big assumption.

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Quote: Originally Posted by speedy9386

Yeah but I guarantee you NO ONE changes directions as fast as they do in Madden, it's just not physically possible. Take 32:18 for instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt83qE-egXM Whether you have footplanting or not that's going to have to be slowed down.

100% agree. My concerns is at times when gamers complain about a particualr animation or physical ability. Developers at times make the change to drastic, and then give us something way off in the other direction.

This is why I stated they need to really look at the timing a real NFL player changes direction.

I don't want them grouping this also. Example like LB's can only change direction at this rate, and WR's at this rate. It all has to be done by the individual.

[ODogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by Illustrator76

I can't disagree with you on the reasons why momentum was axed, because honestly, I don't remember. But you are completely wrong in that EA never tried again, and I am not sure where you are getting that idea. EA tried to institute the locomotion player movement system in Madden 11, yet they botched it up horribly and then they tried to patch it, but that really didn't do much. Defensive players would attempt to "break down" and change directions while the Offensive players could zig-zag like crazy. At the end of the day, I kind of agree in that EA may not try to institute something like "physics" again because of the more "casual" crowd complaining, but I also think that EA just flat doesn't have the ability to do foot-planting and momentum correctly, even though they have done better in the past than what we currently have in Madden.

I really think we're talking several different things here, I was speaking solely of how players run and cut in the open field. Yes you're right that EA did try to make a system that looked and felt a little better but they've stated several times they never plan to go back to the feel of the PS2 days because of the complaints of lack of user control.

EA has the ability to do foot planting and momentum, one only has to play FIFA to see that, they just don't want to incorporate it into their football title as they believe, and perhaps rightfully so, that the majority of gamers prefer control over realism in this particular area.

[ODogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

I had to go watch some last gen Madden to see the footwork. From what I can tell, players were just slowed down on turns. I didn't see much foot planting & players weren't moving as quickly as they should. I can see why folks would complain.

I can tell you that they did have foot planting. I'm not huge into Madden like I am NCAA but I very distinctly remember that in, I believe NCAA 2005, on PS2 that they introduced foot planting because I very vividly recall my first kick return when I tried to cut back and my guy foot planted and I couldn't turn the corner and got smashed. I remember saying to my buddy, wow, this is going to take a whole lot of re-learning how to play.

So yes they did have foot planting in last generation and to be honest, I don't see why they can't at least add that now, even if they do want to keep the unrealistic speeds and not add in momentum. At least if they did that it'd make the game look much more realistic...