EA Zone Running Challenge to YOU!!

[LBzrule]

Ahhh got some time after grading some papers this morning and after reflecting on the Ravens draft and not being too thrilled with the Keleche Osemele pick I had to stop and realize something. I was thoroughly confused with how such a big guy would fit our zone style blocking scheme. Then it occurred to me the Ravens rarely use the Outside Stretch play. That type of run is more deployed by the Texans and teams that have more athletic and light Offensive linemen. With the outside stretch linemen are moving fairly quickly to press and stress the edges. The RB is looking to get to the edge or cut off of it. For example,



Notice here the aiming point for the HB is off tackle but he can cut back anytime. The edge is his key. The blocking is more pin and pull here and Madden's Outside zone plays IMO do not do a good job of showcasing the pin and pull style blocking on these plays. The blockers should be trying to PIN defenders inside or if the defender is playing with outside technique, PUSH him to the sideline. The outside zone in Madden does not do a good job at this IMO. Secondly, cutting back against the edge with the HB is pretty difficult without doing that stupid zig zagging, which basically screws up the defensive pursuit a lot. Makes it appear very glitchy due to the movement. If anyone from EA is reading, you need to get this pin and pull style blocking more aggressive on these Outside Zone plays and make sure the Texans, Redskins, Broncos have these as the base style runs in their playbooks. That's what Kubiak likes to do. And the pin and pull is exactly what Manning and Tom Moore specialized at with the Colts, particularly when they had Edgerin James. The outside stretch should be in every under center formation these teams have.

Now back to the Ravens. In our zone game we run alot of the inside zone variety with our FB Vonta Leach executing iso-leads. In this type of zone scheme, you can have size and bruisers at the Guard position and their lack of footspeed is compensated for because they are not trying to press and stress the edges. The difference here is that the OL is going to do more DRIVE style blocking rather than pin and pull. For example:



The aiming point of the HB here is the outside hip of the Guard, but he can cut back to the weak side if the defense overpursues. I don't see the Inside Zone plays in EA's game doing a good job with the drive block. Of course ratings are important, but I just don't like the way these things play out. Another thing too is that the FB play has to be a lot better than it is and the back side blocking needs to be a lot better than it is for these Inside Zone plays. The key in both schemes is that the lineman must ask am I covered or not. If they are covered they can't just move out of the way. They must block the man in front of them. IF uncovered they help their teammate that is covered. This goes for both.


It's just that the Outside zone or what Gibbs calls the WIDE ZONE is not wide enough. I'm looking at I Formation Outside zone in Madden 12 and I do not see them doing the pin and pull. The play does not execute widely. Ideally, with the ball in the middle of the field we should see this play stretch almost to the sideline, pending the edge defenders technique. If he's playing outside this play should stretch close to the sidelines. If he plays inside, then he should get pinned and while the play executes wide, there is the cutback right there. Here is a great demonstration:




This is what the wide zone should look like. In Madden 12 I hate running the outside zone because the TE gets beat all the time. This is where the TE should allow the OLB to run outside but not let him penetrate inside. In Madden 12 the OLB or DE beats the TE most of the time and is a free runner on this play. LAME. Even if the TE is no match, he has to let the OLB run up the field but stay on his hip and try to keep him pinned outside. The HB can cut underneath that. The interior DL will then set the tone of the play. IF they over pursue the HB can keep cutting back to the Center. What I absolutely hate about the zone plays is the back side does not cut block. You gotta cut the back side. Somebody has to cut the back side and in Madden 12 that does not happen. I believe Sven Draconian told the development team about this last year. I hope it got through in somebody's head.
Madden's outside zone blocking looks more like inside zone. Also with no mobility in the blocks it makes it look worse.

Here is what I'm looking at. In the Baltimore playbook I would like a lot of Inside Zone variety. Not just Baltimore. With any team that runs zone that have big offensive linemen you can bet they run Inside Zone with the FB Isolating. FB play in these plays has got to get better. The FB has to block somebody. In this post I'm not advocating any win loss. I'm just saying get your damn hat on somebody and stop lolly gagging around. With other teams that have more agile linemen, I would like to see more Wide Zone plays executed WIDELY. With both plays the back side must get or there must be an attempt to cut block.

Credit to SmartfootballChris for images and video.

[Senator Palmer]

Great post, LBz, I don't really have anything to add, but I got a question:

When TNT was around, he intimated but couldn't get into specifics because of the NDA, that the team was re-designing slide protection and how it would work in the running game. I wanted to know what you thought of that? Is that more of the band-aide approach to the blocking or a move to realism? Whenever I used slide protection, I always approached it as a way re-number the protection to compensate for the pressure in the passing game. Is that part -- identifying the Mike and adjusting -- part of the actual run blocking schemes, because it doesn't really seem to have a place in the zone blocking scheme with the pin and pull concept that you posted?

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by Senator Palmer

Great post, LBz, I don't really have anything to add, but I got a question: When TNT was around, he intimated but couldn't get into specifics because of the NDA, that the team was re-designing slide protection and how it would work in the running game. I wanted to know what you thought of that? Is that more of the band-aide approach to the blocking or a move to realism? Whenever I used slide protection, I always approached it as a way re-number the protection to compensate for the pressure in the passing game. Is that part -- identifying the Mike and adjusting -- part of the actual run blocking schemes, because it doesn't really seem to have a place in the zone blocking scheme with the pin and pull concept that you posted?

Knowing where the Mike is is important, but not as important as what the play side DE/OLB and DT/5tech will do. The problem is movement and block/break block mobility. There is no sense of "setting the edge" on defense. All there is is be blocked or break block and when it comes to TE's vs OLB's and DE's the TE always loses in Madden. The wide zone plays need to be spaced out in their execution giving you three possible cuts. As the video shows you cut it off tackle, outside the TE or back inside C/G. I never feel like these are options when running the Outside zone in Madden.

As for what TNT intimated, I'd need to see it.

[KBLover]

Too bad the offense can't key on defensive players. They could key the DE on the play side.

Of course, it just needs to happen that way because that's what the plays do, but if the "sticks" have to get involved with strategy, then that's one way to do it.

Sliding protection for runs - again - if it's stretch strong - shouldn't need to "slide" - it should just happen. Of course, it would be nice to have it actually MOVE the linemen. Could be useful even on inside plays.

[LBzrule]

I just played 2k8 and Madden 12 and I see what's wrong and why the Madden Zone plays look a mess. In 2k8, when you call the line stunt to the play side the defense actually fires that way and as the OL is stepping that way it creates a sorta wide look to the zone play. In Madden even when you call the line stunt to the play side the defenders just fire straight ahead. In 2k8 I can rely on the read of the DE and OLB to tell me what to do. In Madden 12 I cannot. Whenever I get a chance to process the videos I'll put them up. I will preface it by saying neither game is perfect in this regard (saw some stuff in 2k8 that was like I don't like that; but then looked at Madden and said damn I really don't like that), but one sure does look a hell of a lot better executing this stuff than the other one.

[jWILL253]

Great thread.

I always thought that the Madden engine couldn't truly handle zone blocking. But, after that adembroski post I saw a while ago, I think it's possible now.

What I want to see is some mobility within the OL/DL interaction. I get annoyed when I see linemen just engaging and disengaging with no lateral movement...

[Senator Palmer]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

Knowing where the Mike is is important, but not as important as what the play side DE/OLB and DT/5tech will do. The problem is movement and block/break block mobility. There is no sense of "setting the edge" on defense. All there is is be blocked or break block and when it comes to TE's vs OLB's and DE's the TE always loses in Madden.

This what's been killing me with '12, on both sides of the ball, the lack of setting the edge. Sounds like the only way to truly get it functioning properly is engaged player movement. Which would be something closer to an overhaul of the line interactions instead of tuning. Would I be correct there, or where you thinking of another solution?

Quote:

The wide zone plays need to be spaced out in their execution giving you three possible cuts. As the video shows you cut it off tackle, outside the TE or back inside C/G. I never feel like these are options when running the Outside zone in Madden. As for what TNT intimated, I'd need to see it.

Are there any kinds of adjustments the player responsible for protection calls would make in real life, say for instance, if an 8th man dropped into the box or do the rules stay the same because we're trying to get to the edge?

Also, do anything change if we're talking about a 3-4 front?

And does anything change for the offense if they are in a singleback formation?

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

Too bad the offense can't key on defensive players. They could key the DE on the play side. Of course, it just needs to happen that way because that's what the plays do, but if the "sticks" have to get involved with strategy, then that's one way to do it. Sliding protection for runs - again - if it's stretch strong - shouldn't need to "slide" - it should just happen. Of course, it would be nice to have it actually MOVE the linemen. Could be useful even on inside plays.

The lead designer for NCAA said flat out last year that slide protection was only for running plays, yet I still see users swear up and down that slide protection impact the running game. Maybe it does, but I guess my question is, in so many words, is that even if it does have an impact should it? From what LBz broke down about the zone play, it doesn't look like slide protection as it is presently consititued, has a realistic place in the game, and if it does, it seems to be functioning more as a band aide.

You should never have to slide protect to get a linemen to make a backside cut block, or to have a TE block down on the end. Proper assignments should take care of all of it.

[dirtguru]

Excellent points all!!!

Would definately be an improvement to actually gameplan against various blocking schemes based on real NFL team tendancies.

Unfortunately, I don't see it happenning unless some kind of sim mode could be added in addition to the currently available settings.
Stick skills aside, something tells me that a large number of Madden consumers may have a tough time adapting there game quickly enough.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Senator Palmer

You should never have to slide protect to get a linemen to make a backside cut block, or to have a TE block down on the end. Proper assignments should take care of all of it.

Oh, you mean make "procedural awareness" actually do something?

Imagine that.

Totally agree with everything in this thread and I always love the chance to see real football play art

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by Senator Palmer

This what's been killing me with '12, on both sides of the ball, the lack of setting the edge. Sounds like the only way to truly get it functioning properly is engaged player movement. Which would be something closer to an overhaul of the line interactions instead of tuning. Would I be correct there, or where you thinking of another solution? Are there any kinds of adjustments the player responsible for protection calls would make in real life, say for instance, if an 8th man dropped into the box or do the rules stay the same because we're trying to get to the edge? Depends on where that eighth player is. If he lines up on the edge on the play side then one thing they might do is change the play. Feeling overmatched on the play side they might opt to go inside zone instead. Another thing they might do is stay with the outside zone even if the guy is on the edge but the FB/HB combo really has to read the edge and be sure to find the cutback lane. Sometimes guys will decide to cutback even before the ball is snapped which is a no no. You still gotta make the read. But chances are that if an extra defender is on the edge, then that cutback in the C/G area might be available especially if the back side defenders are undisciplined. There will be one free runner and it is the job of the HB to make that guy miss. The rules are going to stay the same. If I am covered then I gotta block this guy, if not I gotta step help. Back side chop block. Lots of other things could happen and that's the problem with a video game, it can't cover all the possibilities but it at least needs to cover some. Also, do anything change if we're talking about a 3-4 front? No, reads are the same. Rules are the same. And does anything change for the offense if they are in a singleback formation? Only difference is you don't have a FB The lead designer for NCAA said flat out last year that slide protection was only for running plays, yet I still see users swear up and down that slide protection impact the running game. Maybe it does, but I guess my question is, in so many words, is that even if it does have an impact should it? From what LBz broke down about the zone play, it doesn't look like slide protection as it is presently consititued, has a realistic place in the game, and if it does, it seems to be functioning more as a band aide. You should never have to slide protect to get a linemen to make a backside cut block, or to have a TE block down on the end. Proper assignments should take care of all of it.

Some people swear by slide protection in the run game. I never notice any difference myself. I don't see any drastic animation changes. I don't see anyone trying to seal/pin someone inside or kick anyone outside. I'm hoping it is changing but I have never been too comfortable using the langue of assignments when playing EA football games. Ideally that's what you want, but it has been a free lance Lavar Arrington style defense and on offense hope and pray, unless you are "playing a certain way."