More Physics Issues Madden 10 vid vs NFL 2K5

[dat swag]

Quote: Originally Posted by SageInfinite

I'd just like to know what you expect to see? I've been playing Madden since its first game on genesis as well. I'd just like to know what you expect to see if you think the game has been the same since. What sports games have totally changed everything since their inception to the point where you can't recognize them? I'm not on the "Madden 10 will be it" bandwagon, but imo it's hard not to give some credit to this team who has changed the outlook on this series 1 year and some change.

I'm not suggesting a change means a different game altogether...I simply want to see advancement in things like physics, animation, gameplay...Those things are not being taken too seriously IMO...I think Ian and Tiburon would like to do more in those areas but they can only work within the framework that they are given or dictated to by the people holding the purse strings to the franchise.

There are alot of games that are making advancements...Some are sports titles...Some are not but with Madden holding the stature and importance it does in the cyber sports world I would expect them to be at the forefront of innovation and new technology to enhance our game play experienec...But thats not happening...We are now 2 years into them hyping enhanced gang tackles (i.e. ProTak)...Maybe I just gave EA too much credit..Its either that or they know exactly what they are doing and are choosing to quantity over substance.

[dat swag]

Quote: Originally Posted by SageInfinite

I totally agree that we shouldn't have to tell developers certain things, but at least we get to tell them what kind of game we want now. I'd much rather have this level of communication than go back to what we've had, which imo is why EA got the evil empire title. Push out subpar games with nothing we can do about it except don't buy it. So imo this isn't a time to criticize EA or criticize Madden's past development. It's a time to work together to make this game better than what we've played before, which is NFL2K5/APF2K8/Madden 05 ect. We should be trying to surpass those games. For the record I don't have a problem with Apex's videos, I just think he should make them after he has Madden 10 in his possession. These videos will not have any affect on Madden 10. It's too late. Madden 10 is what it is now. Which I think will be the 1st solid football game from EA sports this generation. I hope.

Sage,

4 or 5 years ago I thought just like you...I mean how can a game be criticized when nobody has played it???...The darn game isn'tr even out yet..I used to think people who did that were just fanboy haters...But slowly I started to see with Madden the game just wasn't changing...From 2005 through 2009...It has been basically the same game...So taking those issues into consideration I think most Madden people already know what to expect and its alot easier to have a good idea what the game is and will be. Actually If I may say the 1st next gen game was the biggest departure from the legacy code but people cried that the game was too different so they went back to the old Madden "Twitch" formula making it feel like the Ps2/Xbox versions of the game.

The precedent is set IMO...The day that EA makes a MONUMENTAL announcement that they are employing a new physics and animation system I will then and only then expect to see something new and different. But until then its not rocket science on what we can expect. For the record IMO Madden 10 will probably be the best Madden we've seen, it will be improved in many areas but it will suffer the same fate of the games before it and that will be its Legacy Code. That being said bring on the fresh coat of paint and lets fire up the 1976 Pinto again and see how far we can ride before it breaks down

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Quote: Originally Posted by REDRZA

Sage, to put it as blunt as i can, Madden hasn't made the necessary leaps that actually immerse you into the game experience. You play games like MLB the Show 09, NHL 09, Fight Night Rd. 4, and you are sucked into the game because of the gameplay, the atmosphere, the presentation. Every single game has its flaws, no game will ever be "perfect", but as far as these games go, they do a MUCH better job of giving you each particular sports EXPERIENCE. Madden's gameplay hasn't changed much at all in many years. You want specific things they could have easily fixed or changed by now? Madden gets DUMBED down every single year by one or two over effective tactics or gimmicks that are found EARLY on which make the game boring, predictable, and unplayable. C'mon, FB Dive up and down the field until you get stopped, then get your "Rocket catch" on??? Thats Football? Once idiots master how to "rocket", "strafe", "Jetpack" (terms used over the years to describe these catch animations) it takes away any semblance of FOOTBALL. It KILLS gameplay. How about not letting the QB all out sprint backwards 20 yards, turn around and throw a PERFECT pass 40 yards downfield to the aforementioned "rocket" catcher? I mean Tiburon hit the nail right on the head with "vision and precision" but then all the people who simply don't want anything new or foreign to them, people who don't want a new learning curve, or to be challenged did nothing but complain. So fast forward, Tiburon took the feature out and the gamepay REGRESSED back to the sprintback, rollout perfect pass non-sense. So you mean to tell me that they just couldn't simply make the QB position play more realistic by implementing some real world football laws? Common sense tells us that NFL QB's don't sprint staright backwards for a reason. DE's would be ALL OVER THEM, and not to mention adding 20 yards onto your throw is usually going to impact negatively. Nothing positive can happen from sprinting backwards, but not in the game of Madden. How about some new playbooks with fresh plays and formations for each team? I dont care what tunes and tweaks or additions they make to the game, if you are using the same plays year in and year out it gets STALE fast. They claim to have a guy employed that only works on playbooks. This dude should be fired, straight up and down. He's basically has a no show job and is getting paid for nothing. I could go on and on but these things i just mentioned were problems of this game because this game itself is OLD, DATED.You want to tell me that Ian Cummings posted blogs about "fixing" the FB Dive (I laugh just saying this out loud, they had to fix FB DIVE LOL!) and maybey, maybey finally making the QB play a bit more realistic this year, 5 years into these consoles? I don't care about fixing an old, stale game anymore. I don't want to pat them on the back for fixing very BASIC elements that we shouldnt even be talking about. Its and OLD game with FRESH PAINT each and every year. Let me be clear, i got TIRED of waiting for these things to be FIXED. I don't even care if they fix basic problems anymore, im beyond that now. They have had far too much time to still be messing around getting BASIC things correct. What im saying now is i want a completely new NFL experience. Im at the point i realize that Tiburon just can't give us that. I want a new game, a new experience, not old, dated code that gets re-hashed every single year. There is no way on this Earth that last gen games, on older weaker hardware should have better momentum/animations than these consoles. Im saying that we should be literally BLOWN AWAY by what they are doing by now. Look at other games this generation of all genres, some great games out there doing great things with current technologies. Madden hasnt evolved, its stuck in the mud and needs new life.

WoW!!!! I love a lot on what you touched on. You hit so many points right on the head.

The one point you mentioned that kills me is how Madden continued to dumb the game down, remove great gameplay options, and geared its gameplay towards the casual/arcade gamers.

Madden should have just made it a option with those features. Anyways I really hope they get things right, but I must admit I feel I'm ok since a PS2 version is being released.

Last gen Madden at this Moment is still a solid game. Thank GoD

[jr86]

Quote: Originally Posted by REDRZA

Sage, to put it as blunt as i can, Madden hasn't made the necessary leaps that actually immerse you into the game experience. You play games like MLB the Show 09, NHL 09, Fight Night Rd. 4, and you are sucked into the game because of the gameplay, the atmosphere, the presentation. Every single game has its flaws, no game will ever be "perfect", but as far as these games go, they do a MUCH better job of giving you each particular sports EXPERIENCE. Madden's gameplay hasn't changed much at all in many years. You want specific things they could have easily fixed or changed by now? Madden gets DUMBED down every single year by one or two over effective tactics or gimmicks that are found EARLY on which make the game boring, predictable, and unplayable. C'mon, FB Dive up and down the field until you get stopped, then get your "Rocket catch" on??? Thats Football? Once idiots master how to "rocket", "strafe", "Jetpack" (terms used over the years to describe these catch animations) it takes away any semblance of FOOTBALL. It KILLS gameplay. How about not letting the QB all out sprint backwards 20 yards, turn around and throw a PERFECT pass 40 yards downfield to the aforementioned "rocket" catcher? I mean Tiburon hit the nail right on the head with "vision and precision" but then all the people who simply don't want anything new or foreign to them, people who don't want a new learning curve, or to be challenged did nothing but complain. So fast forward, Tiburon took the feature out and the gamepay REGRESSED back to the sprintback, rollout perfect pass non-sense. So you mean to tell me that they just couldn't simply make the QB position play more realistic by implementing some real world football laws? Common sense tells us that NFL QB's don't sprint staright backwards for a reason. DE's would be ALL OVER THEM, and not to mention adding 20 yards onto your throw is usually going to impact negatively. Nothing positive can happen from sprinting backwards, but not in the game of Madden. How about some new playbooks with fresh plays and formations for each team? I dont care what tunes and tweaks or additions they make to the game, if you are using the same plays year in and year out it gets STALE fast. They claim to have a guy employed that only works on playbooks. This dude should be fired, straight up and down. He's basically has a no show job and is getting paid for nothing. I could go on and on but these things i just mentioned were problems of this game because this game itself is OLD, DATED.You want to tell me that Ian Cummings posted blogs about "fixing" the FB Dive (I laugh just saying this out loud, they had to fix FB DIVE LOL!) and maybey, maybey finally making the QB play a bit more realistic this year, 5 years into these consoles? I don't care about fixing an old, stale game anymore. I don't want to pat them on the back for fixing very BASIC elements that we shouldnt even be talking about. Its and OLD game with FRESH PAINT each and every year. Let me be clear, i got TIRED of waiting for these things to be FIXED. I don't even care if they fix basic problems anymore, im beyond that now. They have had far too much time to still be messing around getting BASIC things correct. What im saying now is i want a completely new NFL experience. Im at the point i realize that Tiburon just can't give us that. I want a new game, a new experience, not old, dated code that gets re-hashed every single year. There is no way on this Earth that last gen games, on older weaker hardware should have better momentum/animations than these consoles. Im saying that we should be literally BLOWN AWAY by what they are doing by now. Look at other games this generation of all genres, some great games out there doing great things with current technologies. Madden hasnt evolved, its stuck in the mud and needs new life.

Spot on. Excellent post

[salbowski]

The 2k5 DT was user controlled... so he took the route the user sent him...
Peppers in the M10 video was cpu controlled hence the square route running.

[JerseySuave4]

Quote: Originally Posted by ~Guru~

Best video he has posted ever.... Why? Because I did not have to hear him talk..... That in itself is a victory

i agree, anytime you dont have to listen to him talking is a win win situation.

[Vikes1]

I found myself nodding my head quite a bit reading REDRZA's post.

I truly believe Ian and his team are doing what they can to bring a more true to life game with M10. But as said many times, the game was/is so far behind...you can't do five years worth of development in one year.

My only real disappointment with M10 is.... apparently they weren't able to accomplish what they would have liked to with the animations, momentum, etc... Things that I too believe, are needed to bring Madden to the next level. But I also believe this...that these guys are listening. And we will get there, but not quite there yet.

[Jimixiii]

Quote: Originally Posted by salbowski

The 2k5 DT was user controlled... so he took the route the user sent him... Peppers in the M10 video was cpu controlled hence the square route running.

?...

that really doesn't justify anything...it shouldn't happen either way

[salbowski]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jimixiii

?... that really doesn't justify anything...it shouldn't happen either way

I didn't say it did justify anything... it was merely an observation.
Another observation off the 2k5 video was the god awful blocking that let the DT in in the first place.

I think it would have been just as easy to post a video of peppers rushing when user controlled and thus taking the correct angle.

Point being you can't compare a video of a user controlled movement with a cpu controlled one.

[Ian_Cummings_EA]

Quote: Originally Posted by REDRZA

Look ROADMAN, you have made yourself perfectly clear. You purchase and enjoy the game for what it is because of what it means to you and your son. That my friend, i applaud you for. More Fathers should find common interests and take time out to build that bond between Father and child. That said, everyone has their own motivations for purchasing and enjoying the game. Im not going to sit here and be satisfied with tunes and tweaks, and the next years digits on the box anymore. Maybey i haven't made myself clear. Its not that i don't want basic gameplay elements fixed, what it is, is that im TIRED of that battle. We shouldn't be asking for things like FB Dive to be fixed 5 years into this generation of consoles. Thats actually pretty sad. I don't want to SETTLE anymore for the pathetic excuses every year, and i definately don't want to "wait till next year"....YET AGAIN. There are problems with this game, engine, engines...whatever you want to label it, that go alot DEEPER. The game needs overhauled. I used to play Madden ALL YEAR LONG, now i can barely stomach it for 2 months. I assume your son doesnt run FB Dive every down or has mastered the rocket catch? Well alot of us buy the game to get an NFL simulation and experience. I love the competition. Many Madden players do. The game each and every year gets dumbed down to where playcalling and scheming take a backseat to FB DIVE and Rocket catching. This game is the furthest thing from Football, let alone NFL Football. The problem is the game at its core. The way players actually interact with each other, and the ball. The physics and animations are pathetic and in many cases broken. If you don't think the videos Apex and RMOODY have posted CLEARLY show this then i don't know what to tell you. Nobody is saying you shouldn't buy the game, and enjoy it with your son. So you shouldn't tell anyone else "It's good enough". Whats good enough for you may or may not be the next persons feeling. Enjoy the Madden 10 season with your boy, you are a good dude man.

What do you expect a response to be to this? You are in essence saying there is nothing we can do to make you happy. It sucks that you're frustrated - we're doing what we can. One year into a totally new design team and you can still pick issues out with locomotion and momentum, but you give no credit for any other improvements. You can call them slight tweaks but we have MANY things that no other football game has done correctly, from man coverage to CPU AI to tackling physics, that are being promptly ignored because you have latched on to issues with player movement. I can pick out issues in Madden too - I can pick them out in any game...and I could make videos just like Apex that would spin any game in history in a negative light (that's what happens when you work as a tester). Every game has issues - the reason we are interacting on these forums is to weigh the community demand as to what's the most important issue.

But if you're stance really is that you're "tired of the game sucking and it should be better by now" then there's nothing that my team or myself can ever do. You haven't even played one snap of Madden 10, yet you've written it off for good as not even being close to football. That's a shame. Though sometimes he may be nit-picking, Apex (and others) have really one purpose - to make the game better. I don't get that here...what do you want? For us to just stop making a game altogether? Or "to just make everything perfect and stop making excuses". I guess I'm here to say that's impossible.