More Physics Issues Madden 10 vid vs NFL 2K5

[backbreaker]

Quote: Originally Posted by farnzworth

Lets look at some things... Physics? :23 Running? :47 who taught Jerry to run like that? WOW 1:07 that DT is really fast ??? 1:22 what happened in that tackle? 1:25 Great Catch jerry... one handed... never brings two to the ball... hit on the ball... no fumble. 2:00 physics? I think you can get my point...

No one is saying the game is without flaws. What we're stating is this at least even at the minimum the representation of Animations, Physics and momentum is their. So we can safely say they are trying to make use of those laws their game. The animation system coupled with physics and momentum breathes life into the product, and even if some of the things are broken and random at times they are fairly represented over the course of the game.

Here's my prima facia case in reference to Tiburon vs. Visual Concepts on this Animation/Physics & Momentum(A/P/M)

Way back, I mean way, way, way, wayback in 2002 when 2k3 was released. Madden had a superior A/P/M system and it showed. I remember people used to make those graphs of 8 directional running was the problem and showing that Visual Concepts had "Tron Jogging" run a-muck hence lead to the arcadey running and turning on a dime i.e. and the Madden faithful dogged the product for that very reason, coupled with its stick up the butt running animations. 2k had some other problems as well that it couldn't escape or get out of Maddens shadow and it hindered the series.

So what did Visual concepts do? in response to the critiques?

1. They introduced their A/P/M system with no big announcement, no fan fare they just did it because of the obvious shortcomings and the critiques good/bad and indifferent. The system wasn't perfect but you could see it was implemented. They never said hey look at me, I've added this stuff that should have been their all along. Eventually that A/P/M system got even better moving forward into 2K5 and the progression was even seen in 2K8. Never, never, never did you see them gloat about adding very fundamental and basic simple mechanics to the game as hey look at what we can do as a feature. Why is that?

Visual Concepts, did a one year turnaround on their product to no fanfare, they took the critiques and went to work. While not perfect and with flaws, they at least put in the work and showed promise.

Tiburon, who already had a great A/P/M system from 2003, stripped itself of something that was core to football. When they made the leap to next gen, the complaints began at that point and 3 plus years nothing has changed, so they go out and tout "pro tak" like its the next best thing when all your getting is core football mechanics out of pro tak. Introducing like its a feature, instead of just put up and shut up.

So when I see people jumping up and saying they fixed A, B, and C. I just laugh, 'cause its as if that's a big accomplishment after 3 years of begging by its fans. Like I've said before and I'll say again, "I'm not Impressed.

Here's another example of "hey we get it" no fan fare no its a new feature. SCEA responding to their fans and showing it working in game.

A video released titled A.I Improvements, get it Improvements not a feature. An improvement in response to its fans and done within the next dev cycle and implemented the following iteration.

http://www.viddler.com/explore/sceablog/videos/233/

[Steelerlad777]

EA should hire apex as a chief consultant, as he seems to find the stuff that gets overlooked, that by no means hsould get passed over on. I mean, that's basic physics, that should be done without question.

[farnzworth]

Quote: Originally Posted by backbreaker

No one is saying the game is without flaws. What we're stating is this at least even at the minimum the representation of Animations, Physics and momentum is their. So we can safely say they are trying to make use of those laws their game. The animation system coupled with physics and momentum breathes life into the product, and even if some of the things are broken and random at times they are fairly represented over the course of the game. Here's my prima facia case in reference to Tiburon vs. Visual Concepts on this Animation/Physics & Momentum(A/P/M) Way back, I mean way, way, way, wayback in 2002 when 2k3 was released. Madden had a superior A/P/M system and it showed. I remember people used to make those graphs of 8 directional running was the problem and showing that Visual Concepts had "Tron Jogging" run a-muck hence lead to the arcadey running and turning on a dime i.e. and the Madden faithful dogged the product for that very reason, coupled with its stick up the butt running animations. 2k had some other problems as well that it couldn't escape or get out of Maddens shadow and it hindered the series. So what did Visual concepts do? in response to the critiques? 1. They introduced their A/P/M system with no big announcement, no fan fare they just did it because of the obvious shortcomings and the critiques good/bad and indifferent. The system wasn't perfect but you could see it was implemented. They never said hey look at me, I've added this stuff that should have been their all along. Eventually that A/P/M system got even better moving forward into 2K5 and the progression was even seen in 2K8. Never, never, never did you see them gloat about adding very fundamental and basic simple mechanics to the game as hey look at what we can do as a feature. Why is that? Visual Concepts, did a one year turnaround on their product to no fanfare, they took the critiques and went to work. While not perfect and with flaws, they at least put in the work and showed promise. Tiburon, who already had a great A/P/M system from 2003, stripped itself of something that was core to football. When they made the leap to next gen, the complaints began at that point and 3 plus years nothing has changed, so they go out and tout "pro tak" like its the next best thing when all your getting is core football mechanics out of pro tak. Introducing like its a feature, instead of just put up and shut up. So when I see people jumping up and saying they fixed A, B, and C. I just laugh, 'cause its as if that's a big accomplishment after 3 years of begging by its fans. Like I've said before and I'll say again, "I'm not Impressed. Here's another example of "hey we get it" no fan fare no its a new feature. SCEA responding to their fans and showing it working in game. A video released titled A.I Improvements, get it Improvements not a feature. An improvement in response to its fans and done within the next dev cycle and implemented the following iteration. http://www.viddler.com/explore/sceablog/videos/233/

wait a second.... so if EA didn't advertise their improvements as new features... it would be ok?

EA is great at marketing. Like it or not, it sells games. The marketing of a game should have no impact on whether or not the game is considered good.

[backbreaker]

Quote: Originally Posted by farnzworth

wait a second.... so if EA didn't advertise their improvements as new features... it would be ok? EA is great at marketing. Like it or not, it sells games. The marketing of a game should have no impact on whether or not the game is considered good.

EA and Marketing are synonymous, I know this and this is my problem and should be yours as well, but too each its own. At this point in Maddens life, marketing is no longer needed, just a release date. This game(Madden 10) has already sold 2 million copies on August 16, 2008 with just a roster update.

I have never said it wouldn't be good, I'm focused on some core principles in game play.

[farnzworth]

Quote: Originally Posted by backbreaker

EA and Marketing are synonymous, I know this and this is my problem and should be yours as well, but too each its own. At this point in Maddens life, marketing is no longer needed, just a release date. This game(Madden 10) has already sold 2 million copies on August 16, 2008 with just a roster update. I have never said it wouldn't be good, I'm focused on some core principles in game play.

But you can't use one game to rip another game if said game does not have all the core principles of game play done well.

I love APF. It has a lot of good, it also has a lot of bad.

This years madden looks REALLY good. It most likely will have a lot of good, and a lot of bad.

These games are always and will cont. to be a work in progress if they release a game every year.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by backbreaker

EA and Marketing are synonymous, I know this and this is my problem and should be yours as well, but too each its own. At this point in Maddens life, marketing is no longer needed, just a release date. This game(Madden 10) has already sold 2 million copies on August 16, 2008 with just a roster update. I have never said it wouldn't be good, I'm focused on some core principles in game play.

So, because Madden has a following, it should no longer market it's product.

Please let's tell McDonalds, Pepsi, Coke, Taco Bell, Wal-Mart and Pizza Hut to give up their successful business model.

[backbreaker]

Quote: Originally Posted by farnzworth

But you can't use one game to rip another game if said game does not have all the core principles of game play done well. I love APF. It has a lot of good, it also has a lot of bad. This years madden looks REALLY good. It most likely will have a lot of good, and a lot of bad. These games are always and will cont. to be a work in progress if they release a game every year.

No I can not "rip/bash" this game and praise another, but their is an exception which should be acknowledge here. When I responded to you and laid out my prima facia case, I acknowledge that 2k address it shortcomings in a dev cycle and I duly noted that Tiburon already had a superior A/P/M in its PS2/Xbox game so the foundation was their and it was done very well. I also noted that VC was progressing from product to product annually. For Tiburon to totally regress back to 2002 and strip out its A/P/M in its initial next gen product and it hasn't returned thus far. It deserves to be admonished for its shortcomings.

[backbreaker]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

So, because Madden has a following, it should no longer market it's product. Please let's tell McDonalds, Pepsi, Coke, Taco Bell, Wal-Mart and Pizza Hut to give up their successful business model.

Its not that literal Roadman, but what I stated most know to be true, at this point Madden sells itself.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by backbreaker

Its not that literal Roadman, but what I stated most know to be true, at this point Madden sells itself.

If anything else, I do like when you respond in the thread, so, I can have have another look at your avatar.

That sells itself too.

I agree to a point that Madden sell itself, but I know there are a lot of people who won't buy it either for various reasons.

[farnzworth]

Quote: Originally Posted by backbreaker

No I can not "rip/bash" this game and praise another, but their is an exception which should be acknowledge here. When I responded to you and laid out my prima facia case, I acknowledge that 2k address it shortcomings in a dev cycle and I duly noted that Tiburon already had a superior A/P/M in its PS2/Xbox game so the foundation was their and it was done very well. I also noted that VC was progressing from product to product annually. For Tiburon to totally regress back to 2002 and strip out its A/P/M in its initial next gen product and it hasn't returned thus far. It deserves to be admonished for its shortcomings.

damned if they do, damned if they don't...

they would have been ripped if they just ported over last gen stuff to next gen. they would have been called lazy, etc.

also, i may be in the minority, but i wouldn't go back to playing last gen madden/ncaa if someone paid me. People romanticize about those games WAY too much.

I loved Call od Duty II when it came out. Best game I had ever played... after playing 4 and WaW I tried to play II again.. couldnt. Can't run, can't throw back grenades. The game looks terrible in comparison. In fact, it doesn't compare...