IAN -- Two simple ways to improve on passing

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

You sure know how to try my patience.

Sorry uncle Ian. Don't tell my mother.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

You didn't answer my question...do you really need to throw it away to a receiver on the opposite side of the field?

Opposite side of the field? We're talking about a QB in the pocket, right? That will probably be somewhere near the middle.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

Do you believe a QB actually processes all receivers and picks which one to throw it away to?

Not exactly. But he has to remember enough to find one.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

I believe in this split second moment of panic, he just throws it in the nearest vicinity of who is close and where the least danger is.

In the vicinity of what? A WR. Not a side or direction. The whole point is that he has to know where a WR is so he can throw it in that vicinity. Take a guess why QBs get grounding calls. Because they didn't know where or have time to find a WR to throw in the vicinity of. In the NFL, if the WR is 30 yards up field, to the right, the QB has to throw it down there. A simple throw in that DIRECTION won't cut it. Your method doesn't account for that. How many pass plays won't have a WR on the right? Not many. So, 8 out of 10 times, if the user randomly throws it away to the right, no penalty. It misses the point.

What makes a QB aware is knowing where to look, quickly, in that moment of panic and get rid of the ball.

Answer my question. 2 WRs to the right. One 5 yards down the field, one 30 yards down the field. I want to throw it away over the shorter pattern. How do I do this with your method?

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by rhombic21

Most of the "non event" throws that I'm talking about though aren't throws where the QB is intentionally throwing the ball away -- they're throws where the QB simply misses his mark. One thing that they could have more of is a "throw it where your guy can get it or nobody can get it" logic for the AI to use when throwing, and to make the pass lead sensitivity more dramatic based on THA (so that if you try to precision pass to a covered receiver by throwing away from the defender, the QB is more likely to miss the mark and throw it errantly).

Agreed. A more sensitive lead mechanic would solve a lot. If they could get this to work so we could intentionally put the ball in the ground or way over someone's head, great.

Quote: Originally Posted by rhombic21

They already have a bunch of the animations that they need in the game. For the DEs rushing, that's simply a matter of telling the DE to rush hard and fast upfield, rather than to rush right into the QB, and to then use a rip move on the outside shoulder or a spin move back to the inside. Those animations already exist for the most part.

The rip is in. The rip not working and the OT riding the DE beyond the QB is not in. Ian put up a clip not too long ago of this exact animation being mo-capped. I'm assuming it's in for next year. As of '09, a failed outside move results in an immobile statemate. Actually, there is no mobility in any of the blocks. Defenders flow towards plays while getting blocked all the time. These animations are not in the game.

Quote: Originally Posted by rhombic21

The only major set of animations that I can think of are DB/WR animations, but the major problem with DB play on this game isn't the lack of animations, it's that DBs are often out of position. Even if you lacked an animation for it, you could still get a reasonable effect by having DBs react realistically to routes based on the coverage (mostly in terms of leverage). Most of the problems in zone coverage have to do with the ways that DBs cover their zones, not with how they interact with WRs.

It's not just the interaction. Even if they program DBs to react realisticly, there aren't realistic plant and momentum animations to accompany the AI. DBs would probably always be to quick to the ball.

Quote: Originally Posted by rhombic21

The game mostly already has the animations that it needs. The problem is that the AI is such that the computer controlled players have no real football intelligence. And as long as that's the case, no animation system is going to fix the game.

I still say the AI is only half the battle. I think since the AI isn't there, most folks don't notice the missing animations. The failed outside move by DEs would be a good example.

[rhombic21]

I dunno, you might be right. It's absurd that the game has been on next-gen for 4 years (3.5 if you count '06 as a half-cycle), and they still don't have some of these basic fundamentals implemented correctly. I mean, I'm no programmer, but it seems pretty obvious to me that if you're building a football game, you have to start with realistic line play, so I'm not sure why they've waited until cycle #5 to even attempt to address it.

Hopefully they fix both the AI and the animations for next year.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by rhombic21

I mean, I'm no programmer, but it seems pretty obvious to me that if you're building a football game, you have to start with realistic line play, so I'm not sure why they've waited until cycle #5 to even attempt to address it.

My guess is that they are all programmers and not students of the game. They seem to program the game from the perspective of someone that doesn't understand the strategy behind the mechanics. The line stunts are a good example of this. Whoever put them in didn't understand the purpose of a stunt.

Also, I feel after 3.5 years of this approach, it makes it that much harder to turn the game around. So even when the staff knows what to do, it's too difficult. The lack of tiered play calling on defense is an example of this.

IMO, there are 2 types of football fans. One is someone that watches a lot of football and can tell you who leads the league in defense, who's 2nd in all time passing yards, who won every Super Bowl, ect. The 2nd is someone that knows the strategy of the game. They know what a stunt is supposed to accomplish, what a LB reads pre/post snap, what certain pass patterns combinations try to accomplish, how to read a defense, ect. My guess is that Madden doesn't have enough of the 2nd type.

Ian(or maybe it was another EA rep) said something I probably won't forget as long as I post here. Something to the effect that we can't expect all his programmers to be well versed in football. Understandable. I can't imagine there are many students of football that can also program video games. But there has to be someone standing over their shoulder when they enstall these features so the features make football sense.

[Ram209]

Ian

Simple question, cant you have "hardcore" mode this year include all the things Bezo is talking about ie.....More complex controls, more "sim" style gameplay, more audible opions, having the ability call D-Line stunz, more individual hot routes etc... Seems like 09 all hardcore did was take away rewind and the backtrack feature and turn weapons off! This year can it be were hardcore has all "sim" style features?

[K_GUN]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

You didn't answer my question...do you really need to throw it away to a receiver on the opposite side of the field? Do you believe a QB actually processes all receivers and picks which one to throw it away to? I believe in this split second moment of panic, he just throws it in the nearest vicinity of who is close and where the least danger is.

mind if I answer?

no....MY QB (when playing madden) does not need to choose a particular receiver to throw the ball away...just throw the damn thing away!..ha ha...relax k_gun

as for a pump fake...keep it R1 but ADD left directional to pump fake to left/right half of field.


thanks Ian

[jvaccaro]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

I'd rather just make throw-away do that automatically based on the AWR of your QB instead of making it a user-controlled thing. Thoughts on that?

This is a good idea. I'd like to see more dynamic things being dependant upon AWR.

[jvaccaro]

Ian -- regarding the QB throwing the ball away, anywhere in the redzone should have any QBs with good AWR just throw it high out of the back of the end zone, avoiding the penalty.

[sabotage013]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

I disagree with you here - I personally don't believe the double tap pump fake is a good mechanic. There are NUMEROUS times in 2k when I've tapped the button in a haste since I'm about to get sacked and ended up pump faking. I've thought about changing it up this year to somehow make it directional...but I haven't decided on a mechanic. Something like LT + the button is kind of complicated you know? It's not bad...but it's not great. Did any of you play NCAA last year? What did you think about the R-stick directional pump fake? As for the OP's idea of the receiver-based throw away, that seems just a bit too complex to me my man...mainly since it's probably not the best idea to add complexity to a control that no one really uses anyway. I'd rather just make throw-away do that automatically based on the AWR of your QB instead of making it a user-controlled thing. Thoughts on that?

Loved the direcional pump fake

[Chi Dynasty12]

Quote: Originally Posted by Bballplaya72

I Also, how many times do we go to pass to somebody that we think is open, only at the last second see the defender. Well, how about say you press X, or whatever receiver button and at the last second see a defender in zone coverage on him. What if you double tapped X or w/e button and your QB would kind of pump fake, going to throw the ball only to see at the last second a defender is there and pull the ball back

that's how it is in 2k5