Followup on the Gang Tackling Response

[Ian_Cummings_EA]

Quote: Originally Posted by mdgoalie37

Where I'm going with this is will we have realistic injuries this year? Is there an injury slider? I know that there is concern that the more casual fan doesn't want to see the stars injured, but most people here want to see this be at least possible. I remember once on 06 I lost McNabb, Westbrook and Trotter for the season. Of course I'm not sure if this falls under 'gameplay' or not.

Our injury system has not changed unfortunately. I'm dying to change it though.

[Scott]

Hopefully it'll be changed in the future

[TeeDogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

What's up everyone - I'm back with an update as promised. Our guys got all the fixes in and I tweaked a bunch of animations to allow "adding on" much later, so I then played a full game against one of the other designers (which I won in OT). I thought I'd show off a drive (actually it's two drives) full of replays. Note this is with the new saved replay stuff that NCAA had last year )(one of my favorite features ever that's been long overdue): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ41mC15rvg (for some reason it's not embedding) I am very pleased with the results now, and again I can't thank you guys enough for the help and feedback. Back to the original question, is our implementation the same as 2k's tackling? I'd say without a doubt the answer is a yes, but with a few asterisks: * I think we're both on the same level with "consistency" (with our most recent fixes). Meaning, when a guy is in position to "add on", now we have around 75-80% success rate. That seemed about right on with what 2k had (at least from playing 2k8 and watching a bunch of youtube vids). * I think they may have more gang tackling variety. This sucks to have to admit, but the more videos I watch the more and more stuff I see that we don't quite cover. Especially in 2k8, where they had "late hit" gang tackles (we can't have those obviously) * I like our momentum matching a lot better in terms of not having to match a tackle from an exact angle...but matching tackles based on momentum. If you look at the 2nd clip in the video I sent yesterday, you'll see that McAlister was approaching from the front of the player, but since he had a bad pursuit angle, he aligned to the ballcarrier more towards his back. This is something no other game has had to my knowledge - interactions have always been slave to incoming angle (regardless of over or underpursuit) - which lessens your variety a lot. * We have much more robust branching - once a tackle starts in Madden 09, you can spin, stiff arm, juke, and truck out of them. Not just some tackles too...EVERY tackle. The depth is really cool here too because based on what side the defender is on and your strengths as a ballcarrier (i.e. Spin Move Rating, Stiff Arm Rating, Juke Move Rating, Trucking Rating), you have to choose wisely on how you want to try and break out of the animation. This is what they just put on the Gamespot blog as the "Total Control Animation System". I always get a laugh at the tag lines marketing comes up with. (A side note and funny story, our old marketing guy wanted to call Playmaker Control "On The Fly AI" for like 3 months before we finally sold him on Playmaker. And then I crack up because NHL 08's big tagline is "On The Fly AI". Awesome.) Anyways, I hope you guys are enjoying this stuff...I sure am. I also wanted to quote a post I put over at MaddenMania. This was in response to guys saying that we are still behind 2k in the animation department. "You won't hear me refute that yet. I posted this elsewhere - games have their strengths and weaknesses. Historically, EA has nearly always won in the depth, logic, and AI departments, and 2k won in the animation and presentation departments. A big reason I've jumped into these lions dens is to get the real feedback from you guys on what exactly made 2k so special to you, and see how we can address those concerns by implementing similar features or hopefully one-upping them. I literally have seen dozens of posts along the lines of "wow how sad is it that EA is just catching up to a game that's 4 years old"...a) that doesn't really help anything but b.) that just rolls off my back because again I'll admit we are behind in some areas, but they were too. It's just part of game development...now that we've been the only NFL game in town for a while Phil and I were just sick of being so disconnected from you guys - we want you to help us guide the direction of this game moving forward. Hope that helps you guys understand my perspective - I'm not here to convince you to buy the Madden that I want to make. I'm here to get you guys to help me build the Madden that you want." I am very appreciative of you guys policing the trolls so far...but again just know, I welcome all feedback - negative or positive (though preferably constructive). Peace Ian (lead gameplay designer)

you continue to impress, at this point it doesnt matter if you surpass 2k in tackling or not. great effort, i love the part where you say you can bust out of EVERY tackle with a variety of moves. that would be amazing. just continue what you are doing we are back on board

[BrianFifaFan]

Ok Ian, had to make sure I read all of the posts as not to be repetitive. Here's my question regarding the breakout window for breaking a tackle on offense. Is the same window afforded to the defensive player? Meaning as if we are playing D can I, as a defensive lineman or LB break engagement with my skill moves as not to get caught in the suction dance as years previous? Or is all this work Offensive-side only this year?

[TeeDogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by Briankingsfan

Ok Ian, had to make sure I read all of the posts as not to be repetitive. Here's my question regarding the breakout window for breaking a tackle on offense. Is the same window afforded to the defensive player? Meaning as if we are playing D can I, as a defensive lineman or LB break engagement with my skill moves as not to get caught in the suction dance as years previous? Or is all this work Offensive-side only this year?

great question

[Nza]

It's looking pretty good now. Probably at the point now where true comparisons to 2K will only be made once we have the game in our hands. I'm sure some parts of the tackling will remain behind, where other parts may excel ahead.

BTW, I'm guessing most media have builds that pre-date these latest gang tackling tweaks etc, so just as a suggestion to those that are reading this, we probably should take any gameplay footage released outside of EA in the near future with a grain of salt when it comes to tackling.

[moose1619]

Looking at the videos it looks like some of the olind d line interaction problems comes from the motion capture. I mean most lineman stand straight up, this is not what they do in the game of football. Couldn't some new mocap with lineman help at least with the look of the line interaction. Couldn't EA at least get some kick step animations for pass blocking in there so the line can look like it would in a game. Also some mo-cap of a lineman down blocking, pulling, and zone blocking. To me this would abe a great start of getting the oline/dline interaction right.

I know most colleges and nfl teams have extensive endzone cameras and this would be a great tool to start with. And then mo cap some new animations to resemble a real line. Also doesn't some of the animations still look real jerky? I'm liking everything else except the tackle along the sidelines when the RBs legs are taking out and it looks like he is almost trucked backwards.

Keep up the good work Ian.

[Ian_Cummings_EA]

Quote: Originally Posted by Briankingsfan

Ok Ian, had to make sure I read all of the posts as not to be repetitive. Here's my question regarding the breakout window for breaking a tackle on offense. Is the same window afforded to the defensive player? Meaning as if we are playing D can I, as a defensive lineman or LB break engagement with my skill moves as not to get caught in the suction dance as years previous? Or is all this work Offensive-side only this year?

Great question. There's good news and bad news with this one. The bad news is that we didn't create branching animation tech for defenders engaging with offensive guys. There are 2 points of good news:

- We now actually have our disengaged special moves working really well so if you hit LB/L1 BEFORE you get engaged you can beat the blocker without the "suction dance". Once you get engaged though, it's pretty much the same as last year.
- We DID put these windows for defenders on tackling to go for the strip. This means that in basically every tackle you can try to strip the ball away from him after that tackle has started (you can't if you aren't near the ball obviously). It's a pretty good balance - defenders can go for the strip and risk losing their grip on the ballcarrier, and ballcarriers can try to use a special move out of it but now they're open for fumbling more as they fight for more yards.

But I think you've pretty much figured out how we'll be approaching OL/DL play for next year though. We love our new tech.

[LBzrule]

Just got home, I'll take a look see in a sec.

[Ian_Cummings_EA]

Quote: Originally Posted by moose1619

Looking at the videos it looks like some of the olind d line interaction problems comes from the motion capture. I mean most lineman stand straight up, this is not what they do in the game of football. Couldn't some new mocap with lineman help at least with the look of the line interaction. Couldn't EA at least get some kick step animations for pass blocking in there so the line can look like it would in a game. Also some mo-cap of a lineman down blocking, pulling, and zone blocking. To me this would abe a great start of getting the oline/dline interaction right. I know most colleges and nfl teams have extensive endzone cameras and this would be a great tool to start with. And then mo cap some new animations to resemble a real line. Also doesn't some of the animations still look real jerky? I'm liking everything else except the tackle along the sidelines when the RBs legs are taking out and it looks like he is almost trucked backwards. Keep up the good work Ian.

This is good fodder for me to showcase in a video...we actually re-captured nearly all of our line moves for this year but the dev-side task got cut (as you know). The new mocap is actually quite good.