Followup on the Gang Tackling Response

[BrianFifaFan]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nza

Memory is animations (loading into memory etc), physics is more about real time processing. The company you are refering to is Ageia, who were purchased by Nvidia. They did release a PPU, or Physics Processing Card, but few games supported it. The PPU will likely make a return either as another chip on videocards, motherboards, or even CPU's.

I can't remember where it was but I had read about where Nvidia was going to put it into the PS3. It is getting to the point where there is going to have to be a separate processor for Physics functions. Software emulation does eat a whole lot of resources. I still think there is room this gen. Just like the PS2/Xbox era there was a long growth curve for maximizing system potential, really took a while on the Xbox. And now we have the Tri-core and Cell. There haven't been a lot of games that have really been able to tap multi-core architecture. They are getting better, though. Especially as the programming tools that MS and Sony are providing. It's just a matter of grasping the language and techniques. You can really see the evidence of what these bad boys can do when you look at the first-party efforts. Or games built on monster middleware like UE3.....

[Nza]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

Great point...but this is a fine line here with what's achievable. You can kind of see from our animation director (Simon Sherr) is that pretty much his whole reason for being is to find ways to reduce the amounts of animation to make features "work", and let the tools and code figure out the rest. This makes it so we can spend all our time on variety instead of on "coverage". The new tackling and catching systems are very good examples of this. But in the example I stated above about blocking, there isn't really anything close to a solution that could procedurally generate the movements needed for blocking animations - and honestly that'd be a LONG way out. Just think of all those subtle movements of edge rushing or hand fighting or pancakes or what have you...where we'll be able to attack procedural / runtime animation in that situation is with a new tech we're working on implementing for '10 called "interaction scaling", that will work to match up interactions based on player heights and scales. NBA Street had this so that a 5'11 guy and a 7'0" guy could use the same dunk animation and then scale at runtime to match their hands to the rim. You'll also see this a LOT in Facebreaker because their player sizes are so diverse...the punch animation may be the same but the GAME moves his fist to make contact with the other guy at the right spot, whether he's 3 feet tall or 7 feet tall.

Good post. And I think American football itself is probably the hardest videogame genre, not just sports genre, to replicate in an animation system totally built around real time generation. Lots of bodies, lots of different responsibilities and movements. It may even be too hard to do without it falling over itself, after all humans have to code it and one theme in the "next gen" era is multi core CPU's and physics engines demanding much more from game coders than generations past, and this is happening in genres like shooters where bodies are basically loaded to die in a few seconds time. Doing a sport in such an engine is definitely an entirely different task..

[Nza]

Quote: Originally Posted by Briankingsfan

I can't remember where it was but I had read about where Nvidia was going to put it into the PS3. It is getting to the point where there is going to have to be a separate processor for Physics functions. Software emulation does eat a whole lot of resources. I still think there is room this gen. Just like the PS2/Xbox era there was a long growth curve for maximizing system potential, really took a while on the Xbox. And now we have the Tri-core and Cell. There haven't been a lot of games that have really been able to tap multi-core architecture. They are getting better, though. Especially as the programming tools that MS and Sony are providing. It's just a matter of grasping the language and techniques. You can really see the evidence of what these bad boys can do when you look at the first-party efforts. Or games built on monster middleware like UE3.....

It's my understanding the PS3 is reasonably well equiped now to handle physics calculations with its vector processing. It's the same reasons why GPU's in computers are naturally comfortable with physics calculations, and one of the reasons why the PPU as an add in board failed as SLI/Crossfire is allowing gamers to have a GPU for graphics, and another for physics (or 2:1) just using standard videocards.

The 360 though I think is not quite as equipped, and this is likely playing a role as, being the first console in this generation and arguably the 'least powerful' (like the PS2 v Xbox), most cross platform games are built for it in mind. However I think it probably handles physics fine based on what the industry is producing in software right now, but I'd expect PPU's to make a 'feature list' appearence with the next lot of consoles.

Definitely right on the multi core coding. Valve, perhaps the PC's most savvy coders, had a lot of issues getting multi core to play nice with HL2 for a while, and are still working on it really.

[BrianFifaFan]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nza

It's my understanding the PS3 is reasonably well equiped now to handle physics calculations with its vector processing. It's the same reasons why GPU's in computers are naturally comfortable with physics calculations, and one of the reasons why the PPU as an add in board failed as SLI/Crossfire is allowing gamers to have a GPU for graphics, and another for physics (or 2:1) just using standard videocards. The 360 though I think is not quite as equipped, and this is likely playing a role as, being the first console in this generation and arguably the 'least powerful' (like the PS2 v Xbox), most cross platform games are built for it in mind. However I think it probably handles physics fine based on what the industry is producing in software right now, but I'd expect PPU's to make a 'feature list' appearence with the next lot of consoles. Definitely right on the multi core coding. Valve, perhaps the PC's most savvy coders, had a lot of issues getting multi core to play nice with HL2 for a while, and are still working on it really.

Yeah the Cell is good at it as is. That's actually it's strength (physics processing) as opposed to graphics. Whole ATI hardware vs. NVidia software emulation solution for shading. (that's why the third party guys are having so many framerate issues with PS3, but shhhhhh....) Apples or oranges, it's just a learning curve. This gen will give us some of the best, deepest games we've ever seen. It'll just be a matter or learning and harnessing. The animation guy at EA seems to have some really cool tricks up his sleeve. I'm really excited to watch Madden as well as NCAA grow under this team! Now they've just gotta grow the AI into "nxt gen" worthiness!

[Klocker]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nza

It's my understanding the PS3 is reasonably well equiped now to handle physics calculations with its vector processing. It's the same reasons why GPU's in computers are naturally comfortable with physics calculations, and one of the reasons why the PPU as an add in board failed as SLI/Crossfire is allowing gamers to have a GPU for graphics, and another for physics (or 2:1) just using standard videocards. The 360 though I think is not quite as equipped, and this is likely playing a role as, being the first console in this generation and arguably the 'least powerful' (like the PS2 v Xbox), most cross platform games are built for it in mind. However I think it probably handles physics fine based on what the industry is producing in software right now, ...

Cell is more capable than Xenon but is being used much more as a helper for RSX GPU to keep up with what the Xenos GPU can do without help.

so it's a wash really.


thanks Ian... great strides being made here.... i hope people realize not to expect the holy grail in 09 though. I see all this info really being materialized in 10.

but this is a great start and thanks for coming.

[BrianFifaFan]

Quote: Originally Posted by Klocker

Cell is more capable than Xenon but is being used much more as a helper for RSX GPU to keep up with what the Xenos GPU can do without help. so it's a wash really. thanks Ian... great strides being made here.... i hope people realize not to expect the holy grail in 09 though. I see all this info really being materialized in 10. but this is a great start and thanks for coming.

Yeah Nvidia really screwed the pooch on that one, as they are robbing the Cell of things it could be doing elsewhere. What's sad is that, they've gotten past all of that in card releases since. They need to put a newer GPU in new PS3's.

[Joborule]

Ian, have you consider implementing a struggle system? Madden 07 on the last gen had this somewhat. You've got the break out of tackle ordeal mostly sorted out with pulling jukes, but when those may not be suitable to use, it's power against power time. The ball carrier wants to drive his legs forward to get some extra yards, and the defender wants to drive the ball carrier back, setting up a battle. That is why gang tackles are so much more frequent in football and why there is not too many one on one tackles that we see in Madden, because there's time for other defenders to come by and the ball carriers are beasts and can keep trucking in a favorable match up.

In madden there seems to be too many role the dice tackles. Either you break the tackle or you don't (with now a very small timeframe to breakout). There is no gladiator battles where the ball carrier may drive forward slowly if he has the strength, or a stalemate. We don't even see the times where a ball carrier doesn't fall down but gets driven backwards by a defender or more. If the game of madden is lacking one thing, it's the battles after the collisons. However with the Total Control System, we're working towards that.

If Madden can make this happen. Maybe even allow us to control where we want the player momentum to go, this can be a really good feature. Why I say this is because it can work in time management as well as getting better position. Lets say a defender wants to stop the time. The defender, even if he's getting driven back, can try to steer the ball carrier towards the sidelines. The running back can try to counter and steer towards the middle of the field. This struggle system can also help with bring back the break tackle by juke time window again if you can position and strength to pull it off.

Or you can make the guy fall of due to the ball carrier manhandling the defender.

[adfletch71]

Hey Ian,

Thanks for your interaction with the fans of football here at OS. I'm a 2k fan, but i have seen improvement with madden09. All i want is to have the same caliber of gameplay that 2k5 gave. No it wasnt perfect, but the overall gameplay and presentation was nowhere close to being matched, even today. I have a question for u though, in 2k5 they had the QB evade option, where u could get away from a defender. "Its frustrating if u have a non-mobile QB, when the rush comes u have to pass the ball or get sacked when u not ready to throw". Can madden do this and get this in the game, or is it not enough time and maybe next year version can add this? Also i know u not in the department of presentation, but can u talk to those guys and maybe have one of them start coming to the forums to see what the fans want. They really need to look at nfl2k5 presentation with espn and not duplicate it, but take what they see and improve off of it. Take the crowds for intense, u can see how they react to situation and they show it. U see them boo players, walk out of the statium and celebrate. I love football, and i just want a solid game to play. Not all these gimmicks. I pray that madden gets better, because its all we have right now. Please, dont let your guards down because u the only NFL title. People around the country are watching what u do, and believe me, they will speak out against u, if u dont produce. I'm one of them and will not except u slacking off. Prove me wrong EA!!!!!!!!!

[BrianFifaFan]

Quote: Originally Posted by adfletch71

Hey Ian, Thanks for your interaction with the fans of football here at OS. I'm a 2k fan, but i have seen improvement with madden09. All i want is to have the same caliber of gameplay that 2k5 gave. No it wasnt perfect, but the overall gameplay and presentation was nowhere close to being matched, even today. I have a question for u though, in 2k5 they had the QB evade option, where u could get away from a defender. "Its frustrating if u have a non-mobile QB, when the rush comes u have to pass the ball or get sacked when u not ready to throw". Can madden do this and get this in the game, or is it not enough time and maybe next year version can add this? Also i know u not in the department of presentation, but can u talk to those guys and maybe have one of them start coming to the forums to see what the fans want. They really need to look at nfl2k5 presentation with espn and not duplicate it, but take what they see and improve off of it. Take the crowds for intense, u can see how they react to situation and they show it. U see them boo players, walk out of the statium and celebrate. I love football, and i just want a solid game to play. Not all these gimmicks. I pray that madden gets better, because its all we have right now. Please, dont let your guards down because u the only NFL title. People around the country are watching what u do, and believe me, they will speak out against u, if u dont produce. I'm one of them and will not except u slacking off. Prove me wrong EA!!!!!!!!!

U tell em'

[Phobia]

Quote: Originally Posted by Joborule

Ian, have you consider implementing a struggle system? Madden 07 on the last gen had this somewhat. You've got the break out of tackle ordeal mostly sorted out with pulling jukes, but when those may not be suitable to use, it's power against power time. The ball carrier wants to drive his legs forward to get some extra yards, and the defender wants to drive the ball carrier back, setting up a battle. That is why gang tackles are so much more frequent in football and why there is not too many one on one tackles that we see in Madden, because there's time for other defenders to come by and the ball carriers are beasts and can keep trucking in a favorable match up. In madden there seems to be too many role the dice tackles. Either you break the tackle or you don't (with now a very small timeframe to breakout). There is no gladiator battles where the ball carrier may drive forward slowly if he has the strength, or a stalemate. We don't even see the times where a ball carrier doesn't fall down but gets driven backwards by a defender or more. If the game of madden is lacking one thing, it's the battles after the collisons. However with the Total Control System, we're working towards that. If Madden can make this happen. Maybe even allow us to control where we want the player momentum to go, this can be a really good feature. Why I say this is because it can work in time management as well as getting better position. Lets say a defender wants to stop the time. The defender, even if he's getting driven back, can try to steer the ball carrier towards the sidelines. The running back can try to counter and steer towards the middle of the field. This struggle system can also help with bring back the break tackle by juke time window again if you can position and strength to pull it off. Or you can make the guy fall of due to the ball carrier manhandling the defender.

It is a nice idea, but with pre-canned animations this will pretty darn hard to make happen. I think some of the ideas people have are excellent, but they just don't sit well with the tech madden has now. Until madden moves in a more Physic based playground then some of these ideas we won't see.

But I am also fine with pre-canned animation if everything is done right. Like madden is looking really really good right now. Plus look at APF, their animations were/are still the best in the biz. It has so many that a year later playing that title and I have still seen new animations (randell cunninham sig miss the sack animation).