Followup on the Gang Tackling Response

[cdon2k]

I know 2k had more problems with the canned falling forward animations, but that's not where I was referencing them. I was getting at the unnatural speed boost you get from the "hold the button mechanic" and how a tap "A" step by step may help the small field issue and help with transitions from going from a trot to a full on sprint. As of now, you get this unnatural 5 yard boost that seems to always get you by the defense, there is no startup on on this action.

You are right about falling forward being the norm, but when the fall forward is for 3-4 yards, how the heck am I supposed to stop that in 3 or maybe 4 downs lol

Madden PS2 didn't have that animation which saved some of it's "Short Field" problems. The Rb's mostly slipped out of tackles on that game instead of being thrown forward for yardage.

Ian, please fix this...

(again, should we open a controls thread, because I have a few beefs with that as well)

[Phobia]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocky

Look at this video of Steven Jackson. Now he is a big back, but this applies to ALL backs. Maurice Jones-Drew and Brian Westbrook do this as good as anybody as well. Notice how when he is wrapped up, he "gets behind his pads" to finish the run. He doesn't have to lower a shoulder, this is done automatically when he is wrapped up. 2K8 and ironically enough, the Madden games last gen does a good job of animating this. I've always felt like Next Gen RB's were kinda like ragdolls whereas APF2K8 and last gen RB's act like RB's are supposed to when wrapped up. Ragdoll type hits are appropriate if a ball carrier tries to spin or juke out of a tackle and doesn't see a hit coming, but those instances are rare and it is even rarer that a RB would just stand up and let the defense pile up on him.

This is what I was refering to when I was saying backs fall forwards MUCH more in real football than in madden.

[Phobia]

Quote: Originally Posted by cdon2k

You are right about falling forward being the norm, but when the fall forward is for 3-4 yards, how the heck am I supposed to stop that in 3 or maybe 4 downs lol

Well with this new Momentum based gang tackling it should be easier to stand them up ad come in with another defender and reverse his momentum. Just my opinion on what Ian is saying about the engine. But you also got to think ALOT of teams think just what you said against top backs like LT

[Rocky]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

Our current blocking AI is ridiculously complex. If we told LBzrule to just post basic rules of pass blocking it'd probably take up 4 pages...so now imagine converting that into C++ code. To answer your question, it's mostly all handled algorithmically instead of situationally - the reason for that is that it has to be flexible for user input (i.e. a user-controlled guy on defense blitzes 9 guys from one side or whatever). But moving forward, we do need to have specific situation stuff like the drop back and specific stunt / twist handling. The other big wrinkle is in animations...the best AI does nothing if the animations aren't there to back it out...which I think is actually a lot of our problem - the logic isn't perfect but it isn't bad, but we don't have adequate animation support for it.

Blocking technique is really complex, but the scheme isn't too difficult. I think you underrate the intelligence of your fanbase. OL are probaly some of the smartest players on the field, but at the same time, they're not exactly rocket scientist....trust me I know.

I would really like to see the user pick what blocking scheme they want to use. This not only gives the user more control over the game and the playbook, but it eliminates the "why the F didn't my guy block him" type crap. It could be as simple as the linemen have the 4 down guys and the WLB and the back has the MLB and SLB. If both the SLB and the MLB comes, then a hot receiver should be open or if the QB has a hunch that it "closed dog" might come, he can switch the protection.

Now, I think you can give the user this control. Maybe even highlight the hot receiver with a glowing red icon when the blitzing LB comes. Maybe pre-snap highlighting protection responsiblities with glowing icons. Just give the user this control and I think it would really turn the game more into a chess match.

[BrianFifaFan]

Quote: Originally Posted by cdon2k

Ian, this may come under locomotion as regarding to gang tackling, but one of my biggest problems with the tackling in general is when you tackle a guy and your defender throws the ball carrier down for 4 yards more after you engage him. I understand that backs fight for "a little extra", but nothing is more frustrating when this canned animation plays and they get an unrealistic gain from it (two of these in a series and they have a 1st down). The other unfortunate side effect it that this animation in particular kills the sense of a 10 yard distance on the field. I feel that is where your biggest challenge lies, making the 10 yards feel accurate within 4 downs. Basically, animations like the one mentioned make playing defense impossible as 4 runs most of the time get you a first down. I am pretty sure this is a tackle issue that may be somewhat helped by your new fight out of a tackle engine, but there may be deeper issues at hand that others have spoke about. Sometimes it seems as if the field is too small I think. Here's an example, the speed burst gives you a 4-6 yard speed burst, correct. Well, within that burst, you have reached half way to a first down. I believe that's why you have so many runs going for an automatic 3-5 yards per carry. --Hit the hole, speed burst through it, dive for another few yards for 5-6 yards. I just don't think that with the way the speed burst is set up, you can get a real feel of 10 yards in the game, thus making that aforementioned throw forward tackle all that more of a problem. What is the answer? Obviously, you are doing things with locomotion that may help along with removing that throw forward animation (please?), but I think there may be some other things that have to be done to fix the problem longterm. 1. There are some people on here who say make the field bigger, I agree that may help make the 10 yards feel more accurate using your current game engine. 2. (and more radical lol), rip 2k's tap "A" or "X" button to sprint. I feel that this system is superior to maddens because every tap of the sprint button feels like a FOOTSTEP in the sprint instead of a instant 4-6 yard turbo boost. I think this will really help in the long run. Let me say you have a precedent for your system, Madden 08 for PS2 had a short 10 yards, but the tackling and running was so tight that you could stop people (even though it was hard, thus the need for fairplay), but by employing my solutions, you could fix a lot of the game's problems. Cdon (PS, Would you be interested in a Controls thread for suggestions on the game's controls?)

You don't need the 2k "tap" mechanic. Just do like (here we go again) Fifa and Pes do. Have a "super cancel" mechanic where the RT is the sprint with a gas pedal kind of approach (high granularity) and the LT is kind of a brake and when both a depressed it stops the run altogether. And have it how on Fifa you can't perform skills/ jukes at full run. This will bring a certain level of realistic pace where when a tackle does occur you won't have all of that extra momentum to account for. Truth is that most running backs do have to slow to move laterally or spin. Of course then you'll have a complaint, but It'll add more realism to the game. And before anyone complains, after getting the touch, it's actually very fun and intuitive. And Cdon, the only reason I dismissed the 2k mechanic is all of my Madden buddies at the time B'tchd to High heaven about it. I actually really liked it.....

[Phobia]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocky

Blocking technique is really complex, but the scheme isn't too difficult. I think you underrate the intelligence of your fanbase. OL are probaly some of the smartest players on the field, but at the same time, they're not exactly rocket scientist....trust me I know. I would really like to see the user pick what blocking scheme they want to use. This not only gives the user more control over the game and the playbook, but it eliminates the "why the F didn't my guy block him" type crap. It could be as simple as the linemen have the 4 down guys and the WLB and the back has the MLB and SLB. If both the SLB and the MLB comes, then a hot receiver should be open or if the QB has a hunch that it "closed dog" might come, he can switch the protection. Now, I think you can give the user this control. Maybe even highlight the hot receiver with a glowing red icon when the blitzing LB comes. Maybe pre-snap highlighting protection responsiblities with glowing icons. Just give the user this control and I think it would really turn the game more into a chess match.

Plus if you take that idea and combine the play call type from 2k where you choose what the D-line is doing per play and you can get much more "CHESS-LIKE" with the play calling and gameplanning.

I like the idea

[Phobia]

Quote: Originally Posted by Briankingsfan

You don't need the 2k "tap" mechanic. Just do like (here we go again) Fifa and Pes do. Have a "super cancel" mechanic where the RT is the sprint with a gas pedal kind of approach (high granularity) and the LT is kind of a brake and when both a depressed it stops the run altogether. And have it how on Fifa you can't perform skills/ jukes at full run. This will bring a certain level of realistic pace where when a tackle does occur you won't have all of that extra momentum to account for. Truth is that most running backs do have to slow to move laterally or spin. Of course then you'll have a complaint, but It'll add more realism to the game. And before anyone complains, after getting the touch, it's actually very fun and intuitive. And Cdon, the only reason I dismissed the 2k mechanic is all of my Madden buddies at the time B'tchd to High heaven about it. I actually really liked it.....

I actully like the left stick only approach to speed and do away with the sprint button. Further you press the left stick up the faster they run. Aka Grand theft auto 4 and I know there is a hockey game with this mechanic. I think it would be simple for 1 and easy to get the hang of. 2 it opens up the option like brian said about harder for jukes spins at greater speed.

[Nza]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

I'm curious... in terms of memory, which is more costly; animations or real-time physics? I remember reading about a year ago how some company was actually creating a physics "card", which makes me wonder just how big an undertaking that is.

Memory is animations (loading into memory etc), physics is more about real time processing.

The company you are refering to is Ageia, who were purchased by Nvidia. They did release a PPU, or Physics Processing Unit, but few games supported it. The PPU will likely make a return either as another chip on videocards, motherboards, or even CPU's.

[ewto16]

Quote: Originally Posted by Phobia

Well with this new Momentum based gang tackling it should be easier to stand them up ad come in with another defender and reverse his momentum. Just my opinion on what Ian is saying about the engine. But you also got to think ALOT of teams think just what you said against top backs like LT

Highly doubt this happens. The same animation where the defender tackles your guy and throws him forward 3 yards is still going to be in the game.

Your nuts if you think you will be able to come in and gang tackle to stop that.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by yamabushi

lets critic; out of the whole vid I only saw 4 of what I would consider a gang tackle. 0:17 the 2nd man comes in, then just kinda drops off before the tackle is done. 0:39 same as above, 2nd man doesnt seem to be affecting anything. Like the animations there just to be seen, not affect. (and before the tackle, whats that little spin thing the tackler does?) 1:24 again, like the others the 2nd man comes in, interacts (to some effect this time), then falls off.

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

Very valid feedback. But the good news is that your feedback is really only applied to the motion capture and not the tech behind it (guess which one is easier to fix... ) . We captured many of them like that on purpose because it's really hard to get players to do getups when they are all stuck on top of each other (which btw I bet will be a big issue for the Backbreaker guys to figure out). IMO, this is where 2k had some ugliness a lot of times where you'd see players slide apart while they were still on the ground (I'm sure someone could post an example of that if need be). As we move forward though and get a lot more people in the mix, we'll need to solve that getup issue and we can capture more specifically to have them really pile on more.

Ian,

This is what I was getting at in the last thread. I don't see 2 defenders wrapping up the ball carrier. Only one seems to actually be engaged at a given time.

And yeah, you all need some more get up animations. Everyone having to roll on their back to get up looks wierd.

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

That gives me an idea, I wonder if there'd be any issue if they let me post mocap videos right after we capture them this year...that would be like unprecedented pre-release communication...I honestly don't see what issues it could cause. I bet you guys would be really stoked to get that super-early preview, and if you see anything you don't like there'd be plenty time to fix it during production.

That would be sweet. Expect thumbs down to all WWF(showing my age) tackles.

Quote: Originally Posted by JagerMichael

And as a request for a next video, I know using the athletic backs is a blast for animations, but could you show us some bruising runs to see how the new tackle and animation system works with them. Maybe a Marion Barber or Brandon Jacobs...anyone that runs up the gut becaus they like it.

Yeah, it would be nice to see the CPU run with the bigger backs. Can you tell us if the AI recognizes backs that are not as elusive? Will the CPU juke as much with Larry Johnson as it would with LT?