Followup on the Gang Tackling Response

[ewto16]

OH NO!!!! Everything that seemed good about the video yesterday is taken away by the video today. Am I the only one that isn't impressed? Honestly, I'm not trying to be a smart *** or anything. I don't really see a difference in this versus how 08 did it.

The gang tackles still play out wrong. They don't look like true gang tackles at all. I've never even played 2K5 befroe, but the tackling shown in those clips in the other thread are way more impressive than anything in these clips. Those tackles really look like gang tackles.

In these clips, the other guy just sort of shoulders the other guy. There are also multiple instances in those videos where the second guy just falls off again when he comes in to make the hit.

On the INT, why does the DB still have the psyhic ability to know the ball is under thrown, but the WR doesn't? The WR stays locked into his route rather than coming back and fighting for the ball.

Neither seems to be looking back at the ball, yet the DB stops (on a dime mind you, so no momentum) and the WR has no clue. In the real NFL, the WR looks back at the ball/QB and the DB usually has his eyes on the WR. On an underthrown ball, the WR has the advantage, because he can adjust first before the DB realizes it. In Madden, the WR just runs out the WR animation, while the DB aggressively makes the play on the ball, thus making your WR look stupid.

The same thing happened all the time last year. The DB aggressively makes plays on the ball, while the WRs just continue along their pre-determined path. It sucks and it leads to too many INTs where the WR should have caught the ball or knocked it down at least.

Also, the WR continues to do the same ridiculous, spinning catch animation that has been in the game since Madden 2001. WRs don't do this in the NFL and there is certainly no reason for him to do it in this scenario.

It just takes him out of the play when he should be fighting for the ball with the DB in the first place. Why do the DBs (and defense in general) continue to be "aware" of the play before it happens, while the offense is stuck in the play animation?

I'm sure if I sat here for another 2 hours I could find a dozen more things wrong with this video. It is so disheartening to be a Madden/NFL fan and continue to so disappointed by Madden every year. The lack of innovation and progression in this game is so lackluster.

Maybe it is because I'm such a fan of Madden that I find myself so disappointed. It still just seems like the same game (with some minor tweaks and graphical upgrades) that I have been playing since Madden 2001 on the PS2, minus some of the features that Madden 2005 had.

I want innovation. I want new animations and new gameplay mechanics. I want new implementations of the AI in the game. I want the game to wow me with the types of changes that Madden made when it moved from PS1 to PS2. I was blown away by what was done then.

The move from PS2 to PS3 continues to feel like a graphic leap only. There isn't anything under the shiny coat of paint that makes Madden 09 any better than Madden 05 was. Some minor tweaks here and there, yes, but it is virtually the same game. Same AI issues, same graphical bugs, same lack of animations, same weird bugs, and less features than we had in 05.

Honestly, this isn't a post meant to flame. Just a heartfelt response to the fact that I miss Madden. I wish Madden were fun again....

[adembroski]

I'm curious... in terms of memory, which is more costly; animations or real-time physics?

I remember reading about a year ago how some company was actually creating a physics "card", which makes me wonder just how big an undertaking that is.

[cdon2k]

There is a DB/WR interaction thread, he's compiling the feedback from there, please post there! Let's organize guys! Be adults!

[ewto16]

Quote: Originally Posted by cdon2k

There is a DB/WR interaction thread, he's compiling the feedback from there, please post there! Let's organize guys! Be adults!

I had no idea. I don't generally have time to look at all the threads. I'll post it there.

Note that the thread you are referring me to isn't stickied, and isn't titled what you have posted. If you want to help organize things, include a link next time.

Also, Ian seems to actually look at this thread, versus that one.

[Phobia]

Quote: Originally Posted by SteelerSpartan

Someone mentioned this earlier, but can the left stick stutters actually throw the CPU defense off??? Or is that mainly for Human against Human and you'll still need to hit the juke button to really get by the cpu??

Thanks for getting my question answered Spartan. I am glad this is going to help on pursuit angles.


Ian I got a question for ya bud

Do you honestly think we will see the DB/WR eyes in back the head fixed for this year?

Reason I am posting this here is it does affect the gang tackling. Because in years past DB's would converg on a pass and you would end up getting hit by multiple defenders. Even defenders running with other WR's with their back to the ball, defenders would turn instantly the ball left the QB's hand. With this new momentum based gang tackling, if this is not fixed I could see this causing some problems in the passing game.

THANKS IAN
PHOBIA

[cdon2k]

Ian, this may come under locomotion as regarding to gang tackling, but one of my biggest problems with the tackling in general is when you tackle a guy and your defender throws the ball carrier down for 4 yards more after you engage him. I understand that backs fight for "a little extra", but nothing is more frustrating when this canned animation plays and they get an unrealistic gain from it (two of these in a series and they have a 1st down). The other unfortunate side effect it that this animation in particular kills the sense of a 10 yard distance on the field. I feel that is where your biggest challenge lies, making the 10 yards feel accurate within 4 downs. Basically, animations like the one mentioned make playing defense impossible as 4 runs most of the time get you a first down.

I am pretty sure this is a tackle issue that may be somewhat helped by your new fight out of a tackle engine, but there may be deeper issues at hand that others have spoke about. Sometimes it seems as if the field is too small I think. Here's an example, the speed burst gives you a 4-6 yard speed burst, correct. Well, within that burst, you have reached half way to a first down. I believe that's why you have so many runs going for an automatic 3-5 yards per carry. --Hit the hole, speed burst through it, dive for another few yards for 5-6 yards. I just don't think that with the way the speed burst is set up, you can get a real feel of 10 yards in the game, thus making that aforementioned throw forward tackle all that more of a problem.

What is the answer? Obviously, you are doing things with locomotion that may help along with removing that throw forward animation (please?), but I think there may be some other things that have to be done to fix the problem longterm.

1. There are some people on here who say make the field bigger, I agree that may help make the 10 yards feel more accurate using your current game engine.

2. (and more radical lol), rip 2k's tap "A" or "X" button to sprint. I feel that this system is superior to maddens because every tap of the sprint button feels like a FOOTSTEP in the sprint instead of a instant 4-6 yard turbo boost. I think this will really help in the long run.

Let me say you have a precedent for your system, Madden 08 for PS2 had a short 10 yards, but the tackling and running was so tight that you could stop people (even though it was hard, thus the need for fairplay), but by employing my solutions, you could fix a lot of the game's problems.

Cdon
(PS, Would you be interested in a Controls thread for suggestions on the game's controls?)

[Phobia]

Quote: Originally Posted by cdon2k

Ian, this may come under locomotion as regarding to gang tackling, but one of my biggest problems with the tackling in general is when you tackle a guy and your defender throws the ball carrier down for 4 yards more after you engage him. I understand that backs fight for "a little extra", but nothing is more frustrating when this canned animation plays and they get an unrealistic gain from it (two of these in a series and they have a 1st down). The other unfortunate side effect it that this animation in particular kills the sense of a 10 yard distance on the field. I feel that is where your biggest challenge lies, making the 10 yards feel accurate within 4 downs. Basically, animations like the one mentioned make playing defense impossible as 4 runs most of the time get you a first down. I am pretty sure this is a tackle issue that may be somewhat helped by your new fight out of a tackle engine, but there may be deeper issues at hand that others have spoke about. Sometimes it seems as if the field is too small I think. Here's an example, the speed burst gives you a 4-6 yard speed burst, correct. Well, within that burst, you have reached half way to a first down. I believe that's why you have so many runs going for an automatic 3-5 yards per carry. --Hit the hole, speed burst through it, dive for another few yards for 5-6 yards. I just don't think that with the way the speed burst is set up, you can get a real feel of 10 yards in the game, thus making that aforementioned throw forward tackle all that more of a problem. What is the answer? Obviously, you are doing things with locomotion that may help along with removing that throw forward animation (please?), but I think there may be some other things that have to be done to fix the problem longterm. 1. There are some people on here who say make the field bigger, I agree that may help make the 10 yards feel more accurate using your current game engine. 2. (and more radical lol), rip 2k's tap "A" or "X" button to sprint. I feel that this system is superior to maddens because every tap of the sprint button feels like a FOOTSTEP in the sprint instead of a instant 4-6 yard turbo boost. I think this will really help in the long run. Let me say you have a precedent for your system, Madden 08 for PS2 had a short 10 yards, but the tackling and running was so tight that you could stop people (even though it was hard, thus the need for fairplay), but by employing my solutions, you could fix a lot of the game's problems. Cdon (PS, Would you be interested in a Controls thread for suggestions on the game's controls?)

I disagree. 2K had a terrible issue with this aswell. BUT I feel madden has much more "Stopped for no gain" animations that draggin defenders animations. I have always felt madden has been better at the feeling of a running game.

Real backs fall forward MUCH more than what you see in madden. You can have a back coming full speed into a corner with his feet planted and the back will get leveled often. When in reality the cornerback might wrap up the running back but he will fall forward for 2-3 more yards.

So I diagree with the "falling forwad animation" but I feel the "D-line" play needs to be addressed and the issue with the "short field" feel lies more with the D-line getting handled more than what should be.

[Pared]

It's a shame this isn't how it is in NCAA. I understand the logic... but still.

Either way, great vid. Really showed some differences there.

[Matt Diesel]

Good stuff. I may actually buy madden for the first time in a long time this year.

[Rocky]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

This sounds like good feedback for future motion capture. Can you provide some video examples of what you mean so I can have it for reference?

Look at this video of Steven Jackson. Now he is a big back, but this applies to ALL backs. Maurice Jones-Drew and Brian Westbrook do this as good as anybody as well. Notice how when he is wrapped up, he "gets behind his pads" to finish the run. He doesn't have to lower a shoulder, this is done automatically when he is wrapped up. 2K8 and ironically enough, the Madden games last gen does a good job of animating this. I've always felt like Next Gen RB's were kinda like ragdolls whereas APF2K8 and last gen RB's act like RB's are supposed to when wrapped up.

Ragdoll type hits are appropriate if a ball carrier tries to spin or juke out of a tackle and doesn't see a hit coming, but those instances are rare and it is even rarer that a RB would just stand up and let the defense pile up on him.