Gang Tackling Challenge Response (from Ian Cummings)

[Ram209]

Ian

Can you please please please answer my question buddy

Why in the heck does Madden have so many of those damn WWE style shoulder tackles, those take away so much from the realism. If Madden could eliminate those type of "over the top NFL Blitz" style tackles that would be great. Also there is to many of people just grazing each other resulting in a tackle. There are far to many situations where these two type of tackles happen. Very rarely in football if at all will you see the defensive guy make a tackle with out going to the ground, in Madden this happens WAY to much. I hope Im explaining this the right way, if Im not please let me know so some how we can get a video example.

If you could let us know if these types of tackles have been toned down or hopefully removed altogether

[Kev5890]

Here is a video instead of the stills:



As you can see he is almost gliding through the hole. He is moving sideways yet doesnt plant or anything and worps to the defender.

[TombSong]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sigma4Life

The 2K engine does a great job with WR & DB interactions. In particular the small bumping/pushing that goes on as a receiver runs a route. I don't have video equipment but hopefully someone here can show it.

If this interaction is improved in Madden 09 and the WR's are prevented from attempting to make catches for balls they should not know are being thrown is fixed, combined with the very nice gang tackling and other stuff, this will be THE BEST Madden and maybe even be the best football game ever made.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sigma4Life

The 2K engine does a great job with WR & DB interactions. In particular the small bumping/pushing that goes on as a receiver runs a route. I don't have video equipment but hopefully someone here can show it.

Not the best video for it because it's not extensive. I already had this captured but here ya go.

[TeeDogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

So is ours. Seriously though, I am totally open to any more examples of features in their tackling engine (and really animation system in general) that people want to make sure are addressed in Madden.

i described some examples in the original challenge post. its realy hard for me to articulate but here goes:

first of all its based mainly on grabbing the ballcarrier. once wrapped a struggle insues. lets say a defender grabs Bettis from the side, doesnt have the momentum or strength to take him down imediatly, bettis is struggling foward, the deffender is trying to hold on (tapping). depending on the user tapping (both O & D)and ratings fatigue etc. the defender may pull himself up onto bettis's back and ride him down. if not her either falls off the tackle or slipps down around bettis's waist.

from there bettis can still get away (tapping), or the defender can roll him to the ground (tapping) OR he may slip down to the ball carriers anckles, both parties still have a chance to affect the paly even after all this has transpired. bettis can break free or the defender can make the shoe string tackle (tapping franticly by now LOL)

the good thing is at ANY point in all this above another defender can come in and clean up the ballcarrier.
also there are many branching ruslts that can happen at all of those critcal points in the above interaction. fire up 2k5, crank up the slidders in favor of the cpu Ballcarrier, and lower yourr tackle slidders then try to stop the leagues better backs on a regular basis, this makes it were tapping is necesarry not optional and realy shows how much variation and how deep the branching system is. what i descriped is just one scenario there are many more.
as for other animations i could type all night LOL

youve already made madden a sure buy, you keep listening to us like this i may vote for you for president.

[stiffarmleft]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

NaturalMotion is the creator of some really cool physics-based animation technology...think ragdoll on steroids. They are also making their own football game, BackBreaker. To me it's pretty obvious in that first example "lowlight" video that the gang tackle is not completely realistic, mainly because it stands out against a lot of other motions that are spot on...that tackle was generated by physics and not by actual motion capture (which is what we try to replace those animations with).

So you think that motion capture is better than NaturalMotion in the context of a football game? Wouldn't NaturalMotion make life a bit easier for the animators. Thanks for all your responses, much appreciated.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by stiffarmleft

So you think that motion capture is better than NaturalMotion in the context of a football game? Wouldn't NaturalMotion make life a bit easier for the animators. Thanks for all your responses, much appreciated.

From what I gather Natural Motion makes life easier because they wouldn't have to develop the tech themselves. But with that being said, it seems that people can still get the desired results without it.

[DONF]

Good deal.

I looked at the other vids from Madden 08 gang tackling and it showed the BEST of Madden 08 gang tackling. But, when the game hit the street you rarely witnessed gang tackling and the animation for the pancake style tackles were terrible. Ian will this happen again? So far the previous Vids of 09 do not show off the tackling you displayed in the vids. (pretty much the same as 08 in some respects).

Am I to assume the programming logic has the gang tackling frequency very low like 08?? The short Vids of two to three gang tackles was also done for 08. So WOW me by showing actual game footage (a full quarter) that displays your gang tackle enhancement and also the new animation. 2k5 had gang tackling thru out the gameplay and a very next gen animation. So put your dukes up and lets see if this is the BEST of 09 gang tackling like the BEST of 08 gang tackling vid. But when the game ships and we have it in hand we are all confused and let down!!



Thanks

[TombSong]

Quote:

Not the best video for it because it's not extensive. I already had this captured but here ya go.

LB on top of things !!

Now I gotta be a squeaky wheel.....If you got video, show a WR running a post route and throw the ball before he makes his cut and watch what happens in 2k. The WR will not look for the ball because he dont know its suppose to be thrown that early. Why would he...the play called for him to run a post.
When a WR can react to a ball before he makes his cut on the route he is suppose to run, this negates the defenses play call because I could have called the right deep coverage to stop the post, but since the ball was thrown early by the user, the WR is still able to make a play on the ball underneath and that aint exactly fair, and it from a design pov I would think force a programmer to give the DB AI unrealistic abilities.

[Sigma4Life]

Ian,
there are 3 huge problems that need to be resolved with Madden's pass blocking.

1. Suction blocking - this is obvious and needs no more explanation

2. The o-linemen are psychic and always know which direction to block. In real life linemen block to protect a certain spot where the QB is supposed to be. In Madden they ALWAYS know where the QB is in relation to the defender and provide perfect protection no matter where the QB moves. This is why pass protection doesn't break down when the QB drops back 20 yards or rolls out play after play.

3. Defensive linemen should not get pancaked on pass plays. Far too often pass plays are extended because 2 or 3 d-linemen are knocked to the ground while all 5 o-linemen are still standing. D-linemen are superior athletes than most o-linemen and this needs to be represented in the game.
At the 2:00 minute mark you'll see a perfect example of a D-lineman getting pancaked on a pass play.
new madden gameplay vid: Cowboys vs Eagles

Hopefully all of these issues can be tweaked in time time for the 09 release.