Gang Tackling Challenge Response (from Ian Cummings)

[mrnoobie]

Quote: Originally Posted by TeeDogg

im thinking EA was being run like a monster coorperation ( they are), the programers were bound by top brass with money and dates being the bottom line. seems like now things may be changing and their programers are beeing given the freedom to try and give us what we have been asking for. just let it go and appreciate the efforts being made now JMO tho-

yep thats what i think as well..this is great that Ian is here and hearing us out and giving us some great feedback...im looking forward to all the improvements this year

[Nza]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

Yes, I currently feel that way. Though it'd make life easier for animators, it would also mean that we would basically would lose all visual "control" over our game. This also means that life turns into a nightmare for engineers. The big bonus for something like NaturalMotion is a lot of variety without canned animations. But what good is variety if the variety doesn't look real? That's why I'm really curious to see what Backbreaker can do...to see if they can solve the "dead body" issues. I can't wait to see what they come up with personally.

But that's the thing, physics engines are "real". They're based on the same mathematical concepts that play out in collisions in real life. If a physics engine isn't looking real, then that's the fault of the engine itself, not the idea behind the engine. The perfect physics engine is the very definition of "real".

Now, can this be achieved yet in a football game on hardware lacking a true PPU? maybe not, but it *should* be the ultimate goal IMO.

[adembroski]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ram209

Ian In regards to 2k cant you just "use there code" Let me explain, Say for instance Toyota comes out with this great car that get you 70miles to gallon and does 0-60 in 4sec.. etc etc etc.... Honda would buy the car and dissect and see how Toyota made the engine and such. So couldn't you guys do the same and just take the same "code" that determines Gang tackles... WR/DB interaction Oline/Dline interaction from there game and implement it? Or is it apples and oranges? Hope you know what Im asking

I'm not entirely sure it's possible to 'reverse engineer' a video game. You need the source code, I think.

I'm not exactly a code expert, so don't take my word for it, that's just my impression from what I do know about it.

Besides that, you'd basically have to copy-paste the entire code to take out one aspect, and that would be far from ethical.

[countryboy]

Quote: Originally Posted by spankdatazz22

I liked the one LBz posted; always loved how the DBs tried to "feel" for receivers. Not sure these will help much, but here are some from APF (probably not the best examples). Here's a CB attempting to play bump and run against a (legend) player he doesn't have the skill to be able play: Here's one where the CB jumps inside to take away the slant then plays the lob to the corner. Really like the head tracking also: And one I've posted before:

Hey Spank

Could you start a new thread talking about WR/DB interaction, route running and such. Ian has asked someone to start a new thread on these issues.

[Nza]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

I'm not entirely sure it's possible to 'reverse engineer' a video game. You need the source code, I think. I'm not exactly a code expert, so don't take my word for it, that's just my impression from what I do know about it. Besides that, you'd basically have to copy-paste the entire code to take out one aspect, and that would be far from ethical.

It would be far from legal, in fact. Reverse engineering software is strictly against the law. There's nothing stopping EA buying the technology off of 2K, though.

[Ian_Cummings_EA]

Quote: Originally Posted by Axeler

Heh, oh no Ian totally opened the flood gates by taking suggestions from the fans. Now everyone will have ideas on how to make the game better. Of course I'm no different... Suggestion: Just a little thing that you may even be able to put in this years game, if ya'll didn't already think of it. I really love all the attributes you added last year, but could they perhaps be organized better? Like when you're looking over your roster or in free agency maybe just show the relevant attributes for the position. It's funny seeing how much kick power you think London Fletcher has, but maybe just show his speed, awr, tackling, etc. Then have a more detailed attribute listing when you click the right stick on the player and go into the attributes menu there. Or just put the relevant attributes up front, so if you're looking at a kicker you're not scrolling all the way to the end just to see the only really relevant attributes. I know your on the game play side, but a more streamlined UI is always a good thing.

Dude you are spot on - we have wanted this forEVER. I absolutely HATE that I see my QB's spectacular catch rating before I see his damn throwing power.

So many things I want to change!!! I need to just make a HUGE spreadsheet that has everything ever mentioned, and I'd prioritize it with your feedback. Or maybe one of you guys could do that for me.

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by mddst34

are you gonna add assisted tackles to the stats now?

Gang tackling & assists go hand in hand. I'd like to hear the answer to this.

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

With our new tackling/interaction engine, it does mean that you're pretty much guaranteed to find and play animations when they exist. The bad news is this means that OL will basically always find "get engaged" moves. The good news is that our "disengaged special moves" also get found by defensive players. These are activated with LB/L1 on defense BEFORE you get engaged with a player. I have talked with Sean Bailey (the lead gameplay designer now) on possibly trying to find ways to tune the "stickiness" of getting off of blocks once you do get engaged...getting you off faster (at least as a user controlled player maybe?)

That sucks! IMO, that is the biggest issue with the game. But it wouldn't be so bad if engaged players weren't so immobile. Examples would be an OT riding a DE as he attempts his speed rush or a TE riding a LB as he attempts to string out an outside run. These could still be engaged animations that are found until you're able to expand or change the mechanics.

In the highlights you provided though, why does one tackler always seem to disengage? I think this is still the major difference in Madden & 2K tackling. In 2K, wrapping is much more frequent. When the situation calls for it, both 2K defenders wrap & take the defender to the ground. Madden seems to prefer takeover animations. 2 defenders rarely wrap up the ball carrier.

But it's good to have you around taking feedback. There finally seem to be some additions that I can appreciate. Another year of this and it will be '89 all over again for me. I hope OL/DL & WR/DB interaction will be a priority next year.

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

So is ours. Seriously though, I am totally open to any more examples of features in their tackling engine (and really animation system in general) that people want to make sure are addressed in Madden.

More wrapping, less shoulder blocks. More 2 player wrap tackles & less take over tackles. Actually, just check out this 2K8 vs NCAA vid. Yeah, it's NCAA 08, but there's still a major difference in the 2K animations & this year's Madden. The route running animations, blocking mechanics, outside rushes by DEs that contain the QB and force him to find a lane to escape the pocket... You'll have to excuse the blatant bias by the creator.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sigma4Life

2. The o-linemen are psychic and always know which direction to block. In real life linemen block to protect a certain spot where the QB is supposed to be. In Madden they ALWAYS know where the QB is in relation to the defender and provide perfect protection no matter where the QB moves. This is why pass protection doesn't break down when the QB drops back 20 yards or rolls out play after play.

I think it's more about the game finding engage animations like Ian stated. I'm guessing it's what we call suction blocking. DEs seem to just run directly to the OT instead of attacking the outside or making a hard inside move.



And Ian, maybe it keeps getting skipped because it sucks, but I though I had a good defensive play call suggestion. Instead of the current system, allow us to "create" calls in tiers. 1st the front, then the stunts & blitzes, then the coverage. With your current system, if I want a 4-3 cover 1 man, I'm stuck with a pre determined blitz & stunt package. With my suggestion, we could combine fronts, blitzes, stunts & coverage as we see fit.

[Jon22]

Quote: Originally Posted by TeeDogg

im thinking EA was being run like a monster coorperation ( they are), the programers were bound by top brass with money and dates being the bottom line. seems like now things may be changing and their programers are beeing given the freedom to try and give us what we have been asking for. just let it go and appreciate the efforts being made now JMO tho-

Yeah, I'm starting to think they are being stretched to thin with all the different platforms Maddens is on and such

[adembroski]

Well, you could as for volunteers to keep records on each site... one guy on MM, one on here, one on the EA site, and perhaps one guy to combine the three. Considering most of the ideas on MM seem to be coming from me (lazy bastards over there, I tell ya) I suppose I could do it there, if LBzrule wants to track it here, and find someone on EA, let us know how you want us to do it.

Design a spreadsheet how you want it set up, send me a copy (adembroski@hotmail.com) and I'll start digging through wishlists.

[TombSong]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheFuture15

This actually might fall under a much bigger design debate - would you mind starting a new thread about it? Thx.

I will but I need to get with the video man LB. I dont have any capture equipment to make good visual aids like LB does.


LB Ill start a thread but I need you to video some examples of this.

Ian, Thanks again for listening.