Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

[bill2451]

before I start let me just say 2 things... 1) This is much longer than I anticipated, but I'd really really appreciate it if you guys would read it... I repeat myself a lot simply because I hope to drive home the point and reduce confusion... 2) I apologize if this is already common knowledge, I dont think it is at all, and to me it certainly was not and when I realized it I had to share.

ok, this year I took a different approach to sliders than I normally do... Instead of just messing with the sliders until I found a set I thought worked pretty good, I decided to try something new.

I decided to try to actually figure out exactly what it is each slider does and then go from there to create a slider set that makes sense given the context of how they effect gameplay... what I mean is that there are tons of different slider sets that can produce realistic results, all different kinds of slider combinations that arent similar at all, and yet they seem to work to make realistic sim games/stats... why is that, and even though the stats work out, is the game really functioning in a realistic way?

With that said, I spent today really examining different combinations of sliders to see how they worked together, and I think i've figured out something very important... they dont work together.

prior to my experiments, I thought Pass Blocking and Pass Rush were directly connected... I thought Run Blocking and Block Shedding were somehow combined to figure out how hard/easy it was to get out of a block... I thought tackling and broken takles depended on one another to determine the success of a tackle... then I had an epiphany (unless everyone else already knew this, then i'm just an idiot), that's not how the sliders work

The blocking sliders do not combine with the shed/pass rush sliders to figure out how good/bad the blockers and pass rushers are... not directly anyway...

rather the Pass Block and Run Block sliders effect how easy it is for the blocking animation to take place, or as I like to say, how easy it is to "engage the block"... It has no effect whatsoever on the success of the block once it is engaged... all it does is determine how easy it is for the blocking animation to be triggered... This is the answer to the dreaded "suction block"... with lets say Pass Block on 100, the blocking animation will be triggered from further away, therefore causing the "suction block" phenomenon as a defender is pulled into the animation. At 0 however, the conditions have to be much more exact (or the odds are greatly reduced) that the blocking animation will occur. At 100 a player can go from standing with their side to the blocker, and they will magically be pulled sideways and turned 90 degrees into a block... at 0 the odds of that happening are much lower, if anything they may just get pushed from the side by the blocker because the conditions arent right for a true block to be engaged

Once a block is engaged however, the Pass/Run block sliders no longer have any effect on how successful the block is... that is where the Pass Rush/Shed Block sliders kick in... once the block is engaged (and depending if it is a running or passing play), one of those sliders will be used to determine how easy/hard it is to break out of the block... for example, at 100 Pass Rush, I can get out of a block with someone like Justin Tuck 95% of the time with a simple bull rush or swim move... however at 0, it is much much much harder, and blockers can hold blocks for what seems like an eternity

I ask each of you to test this for yourselves, put Pass Block at 100 and Pass Rush at 100, then use your favorite DE and rush the QB... you may not sack him everytime, but youll beat your man a lot and get tons of pressure on the qb

this is why i'd wager we saw a lot of "i'm getting too many sacks" threads today... because people who had a high Pass Block for the CPU thought it would negate their pass rush in the 3-4, but if they had a high Pass Rush on, thats all that matters once the block is engaged

now put Pass Block at 0 and Rush Block at 0... this time, if the defender gets you in the block animation (and if your playing on the O-line, its easy for the block to be engaged right away even at 0 for Pass Block) try to break out of it... you'll quickly notice that it is suddenly incredibly hard to use any moves to get out of the block

at 100 and 100 it is easy, yet at 0 and 0 it is hard

at 100 Pass Block and 0 Pass Rush you are basically screwed... not because it is the 100 vs the 0 though, rather because the odds of a block being engaged are at the most (the 100 Pass Block slider) and the odds of you breaking out of that block once it is engaged are the least (the 0 Pass Rush slider)...

What does this mean for gameplay? It means that it should be much less of a guessing game of slider combos to produce the kind of gameplay you want

If you want the defensive line to be better, but blitzes to have more of an effect, put both the Pass Rush and Pass Block sliders low... this will make it harder for the o-line to engage the blitzers because they will be on the move and coming from different angles (remember it is still easy for them to initially engage the o-line if they are just coming right at them, so you dont have to worry about that) while making them more capable when the block is engaged with the line... who knows, it could even make the 3-4 relevant with different blitzing schemes...

from what I see, low Pass Block makes offensive line stunts, blitzes, and zone blitzes where ends drop into coverage more effective because it means guys are coming at the QB from all different places (meaning the chances of them getting by w/out being suctioned into a block are increased) while high Pass Block pretty much eliminates those things from being a threat because the O-line can engage in a block with pretty much anyone coming at them from any angle

High Pass Rush meanwhile will make the d-line deadly (especially user controlled people) because they simply cant be blocked for long at all... and a low Pass Rush will yield the d-line impotent because its harder for them to get out of a block once engaged, and if you have it low enough you better be prepared to blitz the house everytime otherwise the QB will literally have 10 seconds in the pocket.

The exact relation the Run Block and Blk Shed sliders have on the rushing game are a little harder to analyze... while they function the same way as the pass game, the actual in game result is hugely dependent on what plays out on the field... what you should know though is that a low Run Block means the blocking animation will be harder to trigger, meaning if it isnt obvious who a guy should be blocking (aka the O-line seeing someone to block on the d-line right in front of them), the odds of them only being able to chip the player or push him as he goes by are high... with a low Run Block, players won't be able to simply get near a player and suction them into a block... Rather they will actually have to be positioned correctly at the right time to trigger the blocking animation... Be aware though, go too low and you wont just get guys trying to block people and only getting pieces as they go by, you'll instead get defenders running right by blockers a lot because everything has to be so perfect to trigger a block...

meanwhile the Blk Shed works like the Pass Rush... the higher it is the easier it is to get out of a block, the lower the harder it is

Tackling and Broken Tackles also seem to work the much the same way (although it is harder to see during the gameplay)... the Tackling slider has nothing to do with the success of a tackle, rather it's sole purpose is to effect how likely it is that a tackle animation is triggered... the lower it is, the less crazy/lucky/unrealistic tackling animations seem to pop up because the conditions for a tackle to happen have to be much more exact... For example, I saw some new 1 arm attempts at tackles (one was just a reach back and try to grab) that never had a chance at success, but the defender was in bad position and that was the only animation that could be triggered... once a tackle animation is triggered though, the Tackling slider no longer effect what happens... that is when the Break Tackle slider kicks in to determine how easy/hard it is for a player to break a tackle

at 100 Tackling and 100 Broken Tackles, Jacobs was running over lots of guys, at 0 Tackling and 0 Broken Tackles though, it was damn hard to break out of anything, even with a beast like Jacobs... once a guy got you, he didnt let you go... luckily a defender actually had to be in better position for the tackle to take place (no more "suction tackling")

now obviously its impossble to fix all the quirks with the game and make it completely realistic, the game will always have its flaws... but with this knowledge in mind I hope people will work on sliders and understand what is actually happening when they change different things... and I hope it will help create some awesome sliders

I'd love to hear what you guys have to say on this topic, test out the things I described above and see if you see what I'm talking about... I plan on trying to pin point more exactly what it is the reaction times effect during the game (is it speed when the ball is snapped, ability to change direction, awareness... idk but I hope to find out)... if anyone is interested by what i've said here and wants to help figure out the what the reaction sliders are exactly doing, that would be awesome...

if you made it to the end, please let me know what you think of what i've said

[trrt]

excellent post. excellent analysis.
summarizes exactly what ive been seeing, particularly the pass rush/block shed sliders.
but i never stopped to really analyze what was happening and what sliders were causing it.
thanks very much for this post.
im going to spend the next two hours in practice mode playing with these findings !!

[bill2451]

I use the Pass Rush/Block sliders in my detailed explanation the most because that is by far the easier combo to actually see during gameplay... during runs all different things are happening, guys are going everywhere, the cpu is doing its own thing, its harder to isolate and analyze what you want. Everything seems so much faster, there is no time to really see how even your guy is being blocked and his effectiveness at evading it

during passes however, it is much more controlled... you can do exactly what you want with who you want and its all right there in front of you to see... you can tell exactly what your guy does when you try to get out of a block, you can see exactly who is trying to block who and where they are coming from... and then you can run that same test multiple times with different slider combos... it is much more neat and simple to see

so if you want to test it out, i'd do exactly what you are doing and start w/ the passing game

[OJsakila]

very interesting. Sounds like youve done your work and if you are right, it should be easier to tweak the sliders I have now... it will be nice to see what others have to say

[JohnDoe8865]

Very interested to see where this takes slider sets. It makes sense to me. I wish I was a slider "guru", I'd love to make a good base set on this theory of animation triggering.

[g2thecore]

Great read. You might be up to something here. I'm about to hit the lab when I get home and see what I come up with. Great job dude!

[bill2451]

Quote: Originally Posted by JohnDoe8865

Very interested to see where this takes slider sets. It makes sense to me. I wish I was a slider "guru", I'd love to make a good base set on this theory of animation triggering.

thats the best part, if you understand what is actually happening, you can create a universal set of sliders basically without playing the game (then of course they'd have to be tweaked a little for individual user skill)

the key is to figure out exactly how the reaction sliders effect the game, that is the last remaining piece to the puzzle... after that it should be simple

as it stands now, both blockings seems like it they have to go low to produce a more realistic game play feel (less suctions, more importance on people being on the right spots, etc)... Pass Rush on the other hand will vary depending on the user... it can go lower if as a user you control the d-line (i'm just too good when I control Tuck with the Giants to leave it high), but if you like to play the secondary it will have to go high to get any kind of cpu pressure (idk if its possible to get a consistant pressure when the user plays the secondary, even with 100 Pass Rush, only time will tell, but thats better than nothing)

as for tackling, again lower seems better as tackle animations (like Block animations) seem to be more realistically triggered on the lower spectrum.

that is the "meat and potatoes" of the game... after that the rest would be straight forward, set qb accuracy where you want it, WR catching, INT's, breaking tackles, all that stuff is exactly what it sounds like... figure out how those work best with the core sliders and you're done... and you should have a set that should work for everyone as best as possible with as little changes for each user as possible

[Steeler99]

Quote: Originally Posted by bill2451

rather the Pass Block and Run Block sliders effect how easy it is for the blocking animation to take place, or as I like to say, how easy it is to "engage the block"... It has no effect whatsoever on the success of the block once it is engaged... all it does is determine how easy it is for the blocking animation to be triggered... This is the answer to the dreaded "suction block"... with lets say Pass Block on 100, the blocking animation will be triggered from further away, therefore causing the "suction block" phenomenon as a defender is pulled into the animation. At 0 however, the conditions have to be much more exact (or the odds are greatly reduced) that the blocking animation will occur. At 100 a player can go from standing with their side to the blocker, and they will magically be pulled sideways and turned 90 degrees into a block... at 0 the odds of that happening are much lower, if anything they may just get pushed from the side by the blocker because the conditions arent right for a true block to be engaged Once a block is engaged however, the Pass/Run block sliders no longer have any effect on how successful the block is... that is where the Pass Rush/Shed Block sliders kick in... once the block is engaged (and depending if it is a running or passing play), one of those sliders will be used to determine how easy/hard it is to break out of the block... for example, at 100 Pass Rush, I can get out of a block with someone like Justin Tuck 95% of the time with a simple bull rush or swim move... however at 0, it is much much much harder, and blockers can hold blocks for what seems like an eternity now put Pass Block at 0 and Rush Block at 0... this time, if the defender gets you in the block animation (and if your playing on the O-line, its easy for the block to be engaged right away even at 0 for Pass Block) try to break out of it... you'll quickly notice that it is suddenly incredibly hard to use any moves to get out of the block at 100 and 100 it is easy, yet at 0 and 0 it is hard at 100 Pass Block and 0 Pass Rush you are basically screwed... not because it is the 100 vs the 0 though, rather because the odds of a block being engaged are at the most (the 100 Pass Block slider) and the odds of you breaking out of that block once it is engaged are the least (the 0 Pass Rush slider)... If you want the defensive line to be better, but blitzes to have more of an effect, put both the Pass Rush and Pass Block sliders low... this will make it harder for the o-line to engage the blitzers because they will be on the move and coming from different angles (remember it is still easy for them to initially engage the o-line if they are just coming right at them, so you dont have to worry about that) while making them more capable when the block is engaged with the line... who knows, it could even make the 3-4 relevant with different blitzing schemes... from what I see, low Pass Block makes offensive line stunts, blitzes, and zone blitzes where ends drop into coverage more effective because it means guys are coming at the QB from all different places (meaning the chances of them getting by w/out being suctioned into a block are increased) while high Pass Block pretty much eliminates those things from being a threat because the O-line can engage in a block with pretty much anyone coming at them from any angle High Pass Rush meanwhile will make the d-line deadly (especially user controlled people) because they simply cant be blocked for long at all... and a low Pass Rush will yield the d-line impotent because its harder for them to get out of a block once engaged, and if you have it low enough you better be prepared to blitz the house everytime otherwise the QB will literally have 10 seconds in the pocket.

First off, let me say that was one well thought out post! I'm not sure how correct it is, but very well thought out none the less. I sure wish Ian or one of the other devs would chime in and verify the true affect of each slider. In the end that would make this game more enjoyable for those of us like like to personalize slider sets.

Now as far as PASS BLK vs PASS RUSH, I played my game today with CPU PASS BLK set at 25 and HUM PASS RUSH set at 75. Using your theory that should have made my d-line relatively strong, however I did not get one sack from them (or my LB's). The CPU o-line handled my guys with no problem at all, and I typically saw my d-line and especially LB's run right into the o-line and rarely break out of the block?

Quote: Originally Posted by bill2451

The exact relation the Run Block and Blk Shed sliders have on the rushing game are a little harder to analyze... while they function the same way as the pass game, the actual in game result is hugely dependent on what plays out on the field... what you should know though is that a low Run Block means the blocking animation will be harder to trigger, meaning if it isnt obvious who a guy should be blocking (aka the O-line seeing someone to block on the d-line right in front of them), the odds of them only being able to chip the player or push him as he goes by are high... with a low Run Block, players won't be able to simply get near a player and suction them into a block... Rather they will actually have to be positioned correctly at the right time to trigger the blocking animation... Be aware though, go too low and you wont just get guys trying to block people and only getting pieces as they go by, you'll instead get defenders running right by blockers a lot because everything has to be so perfect to trigger a block... meanwhile the Blk Shed works like the Pass Rush... the higher it is the easier it is to get out of a block, the lower the harder it is

This certainly seems to be true for the o-line, however I had both BLK SHEDS set at 0 and the CPU LB's especially had no problem breaking free from my guys blocks?

Quote: Originally Posted by bill2451

Tackling and Broken Tackles also seem to work the much the same way (although it is harder to see during the gameplay)... the Tackling slider has nothing to do with the success of a tackle, rather it's sole purpose is to effect how likely it is that a tackle animation is triggered... the lower it is, the less crazy/lucky/unrealistic tackling animations seem to pop up because the conditions for a tackle to happen have to be much more exact... For example, I saw some new 1 arm attempts at tackles (one was just a reach back and try to grab) that never had a chance at success, but the defender was in bad position and that was the only animation that could be triggered... once a tackle animation is triggered though, the Tackling slider no longer effect what happens... that is when the Break Tackle slider kicks in to determine how easy/hard it is for a player to break a tackle at 100 Tackling and 100 Broken Tackles, Jacobs was running over lots of guys, at 0 Tackling and 0 Broken Tackles though, it was damn hard to break out of anything, even with a beast like Jacobs... once a guy got you, he didnt let you go... luckily a defender actually had to be in better position for the tackle to take place (no more "suction tackling")

Can't say for sure on this one. I had both BRK TKL set at 0, and both TLK set at 25. Defense clearly had the edge in my game with very few tackles broken, however even with TLK at 25, CPU made most every tackle fairly easy?

I look forward to see what you find in your testing, maybe you'll get lucky and get a dev's attention which might bring some insight into this subject ....

[superjew887]

Get this guy (the OP) a Guiness....

BRILLIANT!

[bill2451]

Quote: Originally Posted by Steeler99

First off, let me say that was one well thought out post! I'm not sure how correct it is, but very well thought out none the less. I sure wish Ian or one of the other devs would chime in and verify the true affect of each slider. In the end that would make this game more enjoyable for those of us like like to personalize slider sets. Now as far as PASS BLK vs PASS RUSH, I played my game today with CPU PASS BLK set at 25 and HUM PASS RUSH set at 75. Using your theory that should have made my d-line relatively strong, however I did not get one sack from them (or my LB's). The CPU o-line handled my guys with no problem at all, and I typically saw my d-line and especially LB's run right into the o-line and rarely break out of the block? This certainly seems to be true for the o-line, however I had both BLK SHEDS set at 0 and the CPU LB's especially had no problem breaking free from my guys blocks? Can't say for sure on this one. I had both BRK TKL set at 0, and both TLK set at 25. Defense clearly had the edge in my game with very few tackles broken, however even with TLK at 25, CPU made most every tackle fairly easy? I look forward to see what you find in your testing, maybe you'll get lucky and get a dev's attention which might bring some insight into this subject ....

I would say first and foremost, you should try at the extremes... I dont know how the sliders work, if it is more like a bell curve or what, where only on the extremes you begin to see the difference (for QB accuracy i'd say this is pretty much the case... at 0 they literally couldnt hit the broad side of a barn, and by the time the slider hits 15 they are already pretty much very accurate)

I also dont know how effective these settings are with the cpu (or I should say, idk if the cpu is good enough in 10 to show the difference that a human can show, so no setting may be able to completely help them)

i'd ask you what position you were playing though... I know that I mainly was first testing out this theory with my guys... i'd play on the d-line and see how easy it was for me to break out of blocks w/ different settings

although 100% I would say play QB with extreme blocking settings... put your Pass Blocking at 0, their Pass Rush at 0, and then let them run plays... if they only rush 4 their pass rush is pathetic, sure theres the odd play where they get pressure, but i mean its really really pathetic for the most part... now if they bring a blitz, that has the potential to cause problems, but wont necessarily if the blitzer just runs right at a blocker

as for the LB's breaking free of blocks at 0 blk shed, i'm guessing youre talking about on run plays... if thats the case, i'd first ask what your run block was at and what kinds of blocks they were getting... i tended to notice that with high block settings "suction" would be in full effect, which would basically take away all the defenders momentum and put them out of the play... with a low block setting though, the blocker really has to be at the right spot, which means the defender wont be sucked away or his or his momentum drastically changed... suffice to say, the blocks arent as overpowering to beging with on a low setting... there seems to be different "blocking animations"... straight on, slightly on the side being blocked, etc... the further the guy being blocked is from being blocked straight on, the easier it is for him to get out of it

so the while the blocking slider doesnt directly effect the actual block once it's engaged and how easy it is to escape it, it does indirectly (this is what I hinted at in the original post, but was actually trying to be somewhat concise). the lower the setting the more realistic the blocking scenario will be, which means when your at that 2nd level of defenders, guys already on the move, results will be more realistic to real life

as for the tackles, again i'd say the extremeness of the slider could be part of it... but also (and most importantly), this one is MUCH more subtle... Madden is still Madden, that can't be changed... there will still be some crazy or unrealistic tackles, but I think if you pay attention the difference is noticable (guys not laying out for a hit the same distance away sometimes where they normally would, etc)... its subtle though

try playing a half with tackles at 100 and then tackles at 0 (leave brk tackles the same) and see if you see the difference