Just some thoughts/critiques/ideas for future football games

[DemiGodzillla]

I have to say, this is beginning to drive me away from sports games in general, not just FIFA. I don't know if there's a good reason for this (like technological capabilities) because I'm not a game designer, but I am a gamer, and I feel like it's time this be adressed.

No matter what game I'm playing, NBA 2k12, FIFA, Madden, NCAA, NHL, no matter what company, EA, Take Two back to 989 Sports, there's one thing that plagues sports games across generations and consoles.

You have to watch the game and make decisions based on what you SEE happening, you have to avoid a tackle when you SEE a player begin to tackle you, you have to try and intercept a pass when you SEE where the pass is going, there's other instances, but these are the two most common. The AI, on the other hand does not need to "see" anything because the game uses your commands as commands for the AI, this is evidenced by AI players performing the perfect action in a given scenario before your player actually begins his motions, that is, the AI will perform a drag back to avoid a slide tackle before you player makes it apparent he's performing a slide tackle, the AI will begin to step up and into the path of the ball before your player even swings their lef forward.

This goes somewhat hand in hand with another complaint, AI reactions are based on what button you pushed rather than what's happening on the pitch, I understand this is what video games are, manipulating a system in place based on your commands but I still think there's room for improvement here. If my cross is going into the goal, my player shouldn't try and control it, likewise if my shot is going wide, my player shouldn't stand there and watch it go wide rather than tapping it in at the far post because I hit shot instead of pass.

Last, but not least, for the love of god, can our AI players play WITH us instead of AGAINST us? Seriously, this is the one thing that annoys me about FIFA more than anything, I could deal with everything other than this but this grinds my gears. Every single one of your players is an idiot who leaves huge space/gaps in the defense to be exploited. No matter how well you have an area covered your AI teammates will drift over, leave space and allow balls to be played in behind them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM1FUhq4u6g



That's an example, in real life, of what I'm talking about. Adam darts off like a U15 player, gets completely sucked into exactly what Silva wanted him to do and leaves Agger to mark Dzeko, De Jong and about 30 square meters by himself. Once Silva cut back in on Gerrard Adam should've dropped back to mark the space De Jong eventually shoots from, then when Skrtel is forced to step up for a second to stop Silva's attack Agger can hold off Dzeko's run while Adam marks De Jong and Henderson and Gerrard get back into position.

This kind of thing happens all game, every game, you have to continuously switch back and forth to move players into and back into position while the AI's players work together as a team to mark different areas and players on the pitch.

Edit: One last thing, you can't leave something out of a game (off ball fouls) and then purposely have the AI abuse this exploit. How many times do you go into a 50/50 battle with an AI player only to lose and then be dumped on your head while the AI player runs off like there was no contact at all? Come on EA, seriously, Andy Carroll shouldn't be getting flipped through the air like a rag doll by Kieran Gibbs while the latter runs away like nothing happened, it seems like sometimes it's done just to give the AI an advantage, like instead of doing a skill move to get some space it just knocks you over and runs away.

Edit Again: Stop making my AI team mates stand there and watch the ball go to the opposition, or even worse, stop making a run directly into the line of the ball they'd clearly win/intercept just so the other team can gain/regain possession, if your player is going to cross paths with another player, 99% of the time they pull up and just concede possession if you aren't controlling them. This goes hand in hand with the complaint about covering space, I can't control all 11 players on the pitch at once, give my teammates some level of intelligence to help me out.

[NaturalSelected]

There will be significant off the ball improvements in 12, the "two moves ahead" thing I've seen examples of is the key to improving the AI.

[clipperfan811]

I think 98% of FIFA players can relate to this, specifically your AI teammates not working with you. The other game does a much better job of that (based on very limited playtime).

I completely agree that it's excruciatingly frustrating to pass just wide of your intended target and have the ball intercepted because a 3rd teammate wouldn't move 5 feet because he wasn't the intended target. It truly devastates your immersion and sharply reminds you that you're playing nothing more than coded animations.

I can imagine that programing human-like behavior and recognition is an insanely difficult task to accomplish but it's definitely frustrating that the opponent AI obviously knows there's a loose ball to be had when your teammate is programed to be oblivious to it.

[Yeats]

Quote: Originally Posted by clipperfan811

I completely agree that it's excruciatingly frustrating to pass just wide of your intended target and have the ball intercepted because a 3rd teammate wouldn't move 5 feet because he wasn't the intended target. It truly devastates your immersion and sharply reminds you that you're playing nothing more than coded animations.

The idea there is that you have to take control of players as the game won't do it for you. And I prefer that setup than having the game do the work for me. 2K programmed their baseball game in a way that your infielders auto-lunge for line drives and such. I've played entire innings where I never once moved the L-stick; the CPU caught all three outs without any input or effort on my behalf. There's no challenge or fun in that whatsoever.

[clipperfan811]

Quote: Originally Posted by Yeats

The idea there is that you have to take control of players as the game won't do it for you. And I prefer that setup than having the game do the work for me. 2K programmed their baseball game in a way that your infielders auto-lunge for line drives and such. I've played entire innings where I never once moved the L-stick; the CPU caught all three outs without any input or effort on my behalf. There's no challenge or fun in that whatsoever.

I guess I can see the logic behind the coding but it hurts the game overall IMO because it comes off as having no intelligent teammates.

I haven't played baseball games in a good while but to take your example: I don't want the player I'm controlling to auto lunge for me because I'm controlling him (or at least make it a setting for those who do) however I would like my teammate to start positioning himself behind me in case I miss the ball. Those are solid fundamental plays that demonstrate intelligent teammates.

I completely get how it can be unbalanced to the other side though, take for example NBA 2k12; I despise how if I have my hands up and the opponent pump fakes my player sort of lunges a bit and gets out of position. I didn't hit the jump button for a reason, it basically makes it impossible to play fundamental defense.

I definitely feel for these programers cause finding the perfect balance is next to impossible, especially when everyone's idea of balance is different.

[DemiGodzillla]

Quote: Originally Posted by Yeats

The idea there is that you have to take control of players as the game won't do it for you. And I prefer that setup than having the game do the work for me. 2K programmed their baseball game in a way that your infielders auto-lunge for line drives and such. I've played entire innings where I never once moved the L-stick; the CPU caught all three outs without any input or effort on my behalf. There's no challenge or fun in that whatsoever.

Two different sports, completely different situations, you can't control 11 people at once, it's not possible, I don't know what 2k did but I know that you need your AI team mated working with you when there's 11 players and the name of the game is creating and covering space. Also, what you're happening (the AI taking over your player) still happens in FIFA, it's just in ways to hurt you rather than help you.

There's instances in this game where the AI obviously works against you, like when a GK saves a shot, it ricochets directly at your player, but the AI won't let you take control of the player and he starts tracking back out of the box instead of tapping it into the net, and there's NOTHING you can do about. (Something PES let's you turn on and off, auto shooting/clearing)

You can have a player completely free on a through ball 15 yards clear of the back line and he'll automatically reach his foot out and miss the ball on purpose, completely out of your control, without you telling him to do it allowing the defense to recover, rather than just continuing to run straight and picking the ball up in stride.

There's times when the other team is in possession of the ball, you can just RUN at the ball because the player in control knocked it to far forward and don't have it under control, but rather than just running through and picking the ball up, your player will automatically tackle instead and coincidentally knock the ball back into the other teams possession, when they could've just easily picked it up and dribbled themselves.

And there's plenty more examples.

[NaturalSelected]

Quote: Originally Posted by DemiGodzillla

There's instances in this game where the AI obviously works against you, like when a GK saves a shot, it ricochets directly at your player, but the AI won't let you take control of the player and he starts tracking back out of the box instead of tapping it into the net, and there's NOTHING you can do about.

Drives me crazy when that happens. Not sure how much of an "AI" thing this is. When it's happened to me it's felt more like an auto-switching bug.

[DemiGodzillla]

Quote: Originally Posted by NaturalSelected

Drives me crazy when that happens. Not sure how much of an "AI" thing this is. When it's happened to me it's felt more like an auto-switching bug.

I don't know that it's an AI thing in it's essence, like you said it might actually be an auto switching bug, but when it happens it exposes that fundamental flaw that your AI teammate won't do anything you aren't telling them to do.

It's also something that is done on purpose, which is why it annoys me. It's not an accident, glitch or hiccup, it happens time and time again to human players and not the CPU, ever. The CPU just doesn't follow that flawed principle that the AI is coded to do where they start tracking back into formation and ignore the ball completely, the CPU actually reacts to the ball, which is why it's so annoying your team mates don't do the same.

[Yeats]

Quote: Originally Posted by DemiGodzillla

he starts tracking back out of the box instead of tapping it into the net

Good gravy, the very last thing I would ever want to see in a video football game is where my CPU-controlled teammate taps the ball into the net. Might as well switch to CPU vs CPU and just watch at that point.

Anyway, this argument takes place all the time with many games. It's really about preference, and I prefer to make the plays myself rather than have my CPU-controlled teammates do the work for me.

[gerg1234]

Quote: Originally Posted by Yeats

Good gravy, the very last thing I would ever want to see in a video football game is where my CPU-controlled teammate taps the ball into the net. Might as well switch to CPU vs CPU and just watch at that point. Anyway, this argument takes place all the time with many games. It's really about preference, and I prefer to make the plays myself rather than have my CPU-controlled teammates do the work for me.

I get what you're saying, but you can't switch to that player in this version either. It's frustrating.