All basketball games are plagued with "I score, you score" syndrome

[bakesalee]

Basketball is my favorite sport to watch, and the only one I know how to play well in real life. However, I can't help but be frustrated by basketball video games. From my first one my parents bought me in 1991 to 2010.

I'm not sure if this is by fault of any designers. I think the fatal flaw is this: all other sports video games follow a stict format, whereas basketball is entirely up to the user(s) during every second of the game. Baseball: 3 outs and you will switch to the "other side" of the sport. You're the batter, or the pitcher, or an outfielder. No monkey business. Football: same principle. Basketball: Run around in circles until an open dunk presents itself.

I'm not sure what can be done to remedy this. It's not like anyone wants to play a timing-based basketball game where the game plays itself out under it's own terms, and is a timing game where you pass when the "X" button illuminates and if you time everything right you win and the package on screen looks identical to a TV broadcast. But then again, sometimes I feel like too much control is given to the user. So much so that it doesn't flow naturally, doesn't resemble what I watch on TV.

I have never liked football or baseball, but became a casual fan after getting addicted to their video games. There's a chess match going on there. It's cerebral. Unless there's an obvious weakness/exploit, the smarter person with the most cunning plan will prevail. Not so in basketball videogameland.

If you want to dunk or lay it up Suns style at least every other possession, you can - I've seen it online, with this game, and every other basketball game I've ever played. It's not fun. It's not smart. I just beat someone online by 1 point after being down by 15 the whole game. I did it out of frustration by dunking every play as that's how my opponent took the initial lead in the first quarter. I took no joy in this win, or any joy during any of the 35 minutes spent playing.

In football, a game I hardly cared about before video games - winning a come behind is f$(@*# awesome. I feel like I earned it. Even winning without a miracle finish feels rewarding. I worked for it, I planned it, I executed, I rule! Basketball....an indifferent "meh." Football however, some games are so dramatic and mentally exhausting I could literally get a beer and would be willing to watch a replay of the game I just played this time just as a fan/observer of what unfolded. Basketball, yeah right - run up run down, up by 2, tied, repeat. One of the biggest problems is that when open jumpers don't go in, a player starts to see that a dunk is the highest statistical chance of scoring. Then the game company counters with "missed dunks" and more turnovers and while it slows that thought down, it's ridiculously unreal, and more importantly doesn't add value.

In other sports there's always something "smart" to do to counter the opposition. For example, I'm playing MLB The Show 09 and my opponent is swinging and hitting my high fast balls hard. Now I start throwing junk up high and he swings and strikes out. Then he adjusts. So now I throw curve balls that look way way high like junk fastballs - but end up as strikes. This is the mental grind of outsmarting your opponent. I ask this, is it just inherent in basketball's nature to lack a component such as this? Must basketball just be a game I take great joy in playing and winning in real life, but stays confined as a real world only exercise?

I bought Live 10 as the first basketball game I've bought in years. I'm really impressed with the offball controls, and at least pre-patch, the fact that Grant Hill, open, from 15 feet would 99% hit the jump shot. This to me was the first step in overcoming "I score, you score." For a few weeks at least with the game, I felt like I was being rewarded for executing real life ball. Good start.

Please don't be rude - as I explained this isn't inherent to just the Live series. Let me have it though. What are your thoughts? What could be changed? Do you feel the same way? Is there something you just can't put your finger on about basketball video games that lacks an intense mental challenge? I don't want to hear "play sim people online." A "cheeser" shouldn't be able to beat a "sim" in any game.

[carnalnirvava]

i am still trying to figure out if you are really saying you had a cerebral football experience online from a video game !!!! ????

hahahah right nice try...

online is subjective based on who you play. same as you i am frustrated by:

people who pick 1 play in madden-- nothing cunning and smart in that
people who pick the fastest best team in fifa and sprint all game
people who use the strongest gun the mp40 in cod Waw and camp
people who use the m16 in modern warefare and camp
people who use active reloads in gears of war with the sniper or melee you to death always

blah blah blah thats the nature of online games.

there are strategies to counter this box & 1, full presses etc you just dont know how to combat the community as yet...

anyway no sports videogame is a chess match, i have played the show and its miserable to see a game so good played the way people play it but thats online life

[bakesalee]

Yes, I had a "cerebral" experience playing All Pro Football 2k8. Mental stimulation breeds gameplay addiciton. I've never played Madden. That game is notorious for people placing more value on meaningless records than an authentic experience.

I thought I wrote a well thought out piece - at least I was trying to get to the bottom of something bigger than "cheese" - so thanks for your "I feel the same as you" but I don't appreciate your patronizing tone.

[ehh]

Online is impossible to judge because A) most people online don't know how to play defense B) they don't care about playing defense. What difficultly level are you playing on online?

I haven't see any dunk fests and I only roll with the Knicks, the worst defensive team out there. And I think the only teams I've played online remain the Cavs/Celts/Magic. Don't even think someone's been LA yet. It's easy to tell if your opp is someone who only tries to get to the rim. If that's the case then just sag off like crazy and go into your settings and set the pressure to "loose" for everyone. I've been able to hold LBJ in check with the Knicks more than once, so you def can stop people.

Against the CPU the defense in this game is very good IMO. You have to break down the D realistically in most cases. Play the Knicks/Heat rewind game on default All-Star as the Knicks and tell me how easy it is to score.

[bakesalee]

OK then, I'll be the first to address the bigger problem I was aiming at in the post, not so much the "cheese factor."

I think the game should somehow reward a player playing team ball. Do I know how to do this? No. But something's terribly wrong when I lose to someone who had a total of 3 assists, while me on the other hand had 20 assists and all 5 starters in double figures.

And again, I'm not talking about "just don't play cheesers." I'm talking about innovating the foundation of the game so that this stuff doesn't happen in the first place. Forget about a fundamental game change to address cheesers, think of it as a way to reward playing authentic ball.

I thought NBA Live 10 was sort of getting to this pre-patch when an open slasher would 99% of the time hit the open jumper. I think this should be reevaluated. Show the user that smart, realistic play is just as effective as running around in circles until an open dunk presents itself.

Also carnalnirvana, no offense if I took your response wrong, I was just looking for a little something more here.

[BZOE]

I think i see your point, but if u want the game to reward u for playing team ball, i think it depends, for example some teams can play team ball and won't win because their team revolves around one player and the team isn't talented enough to hit open jump shots on a consistent basis believe it or not (ex: the 06 lakers, starting line up: smush parker, kobe bryant, luke walton, lamar odom and kwame brown). At the same time there are teams that will be rewarded thru team work. Just last night I was trying out the new patch so I picked miami and I found the open man and many times and I was rewarded but thats because dwayne wade has teammates that can put the ball in the basket if they are open.

[loadleft]

I agree with OP. I thought Live 10 pre-patch was a step in the right direction but EA is a business and being a biz owner myself I know that you must sell what your customers want, not your vision of what things should be. In essence we all say we want sim games but we really want to re-create the Sports Center highlight package and or the Game of the Week since this is how most of us get to see sports (basketball in particular). I got this opinion from reading post like when guys complain about losing the ball dribbling in the paint. At the same time I have friends that are coaches of major D-1 College programs and when I go to their practices they are preaching making quick decisions before the double team arrives or not dribbling in the paint because it's more likely to be stolen. The cerebral approach just will not sell games, any more than the Spurs/Detroit Championship series excited NBA fans.

[TheKasmar]

I see what you are getting at OP. Why is every dribble down the court guarenteed just because you press the stick forward? Developers could increase the difficulty by making every dribble correspond to a button or some type of sequence(Wouldnt that be a pain in the ***). Why is dribbling so easy in basketball games? Imagine if a casual moved the left stick forward and they got called for a travel every time because they kept forgetting to hit the corresponding button.

Or, what about making shooting more diffuclt. For the casuals who want to continue to score all game thats fine. But, their should be a hardcore level for gamers who want more strategy involved. Letting go of the X button for shooting is what I'm comfortable with but I'd like to be put out of my comfort zone by a developer and have the option for more involved shooting. Imagine pressing one button to jump, but having to press another button to actually release the ball. If you dont press the release button by the time you hit the ground it would just be a travel.

I'm just throwing ideas out there, but a mode for more involved strategy is one I would welcome. The problem is how much time would a developer put into it since it wouldn't cater to everyone.

[bakesalee]

Agreed that all NBA teams don't play "team ball." I guess I was kind of going off topic with that idea anyway. What I'm really getting at, is must a basketball videogame lack an intense mental challenge?

Think about playing a great baseball video game (and sure I know, there is no pitcher or batter in basketball). When the game starts and you're intent to pitch lights out, it's intense. It's a real battle going on there. You're trying to outsmart your opponent. If you end up scoring a bunch of runs on offense then the intense battle is mostly over, you lose the butterflies in your stomach. But..(!!!!) until that happens there's a real struggle going on there.

Same with football. Only when the game is broken open by one person being up by like 17 points do you come back down to earth. Prior to that, you are sweating it out hard core. There is a lot of reward to be felt by achieving that, and conversely a major letdown if you find yourself down by several scores when just 5-10 minutes prior to that you were neck and neck struggling in an all out tug-of-war.

All I am saying is that I never feel this intensity, and along with that - the joy - in basketball video games as I can with the other sports I mentioned.

Maybe like I said, this is just inherent to the sport of basketball. I hope not though.

[NINJAK2]

Baseball is a series of one on one battles(Pitcher vs. Batter). It's a heck of alot easier to create those kind of chess matches in a video game setting imo. Basketball is waaaayyyyyy more dificult imo to recreate in that matter. You got 10 guys on the floor interacting throughout the course of a game constantly and the sport allows for much more creativity in a scoring sense. Baseball is much more cut and dry in those kind of battles. You throw a pitch, Your opponent either gets a hit or he doesn't based on his assumption of where the ball was going.

I've felt the only way hoop games can really curtail abuse or make things better is by addressing shooting %'s, fatigue,and promoting playcalling.

shooting %'s- I always felt 2k should have the option to turn on/off Real FG% similar to their real FT% setting.

Fatigue-performing more energy sapping acts such as constant/reckless driving, massive turbo use should really tap into your fatigue reserves. Fatigue levels should also affect shot types more drastically. Maybe every -10 points fatigue drops the player ability categories by 5. For example say kobe's default handle 85,midrange90, 3pt 70 and dunk 80 drops to 80,85,65,75 or something like that.

Running plays should equate to a higher shooting % compared to the guy who just tries to iso or bulldoze into the paint constantly. With the exception of the last one or two minutes of each quarter that should be the case.