My final thoughts on Live (after playing both games extensively).

[blues rocker]

I've been playing both Live and 2k back and forth to compare them, and I have my final thoughts on Live (just a warning to the mods, I'm going to be mentioning 2k, but only as a way to better explain my thoughts).

Live's dribbling controls are amazing and totally revolutionary. The dribbling alone makes the game worth buying. Live's dribbling is so much deeper and more responsive than 2k. In 2k, I can maybe pull off a spin move 1 out of 10 tries. In Live, I can do a spin move every time. In Live, I can do a any move I can think of on demand. I can do a crossover whenever I want, I can do a step back whenever I want. This is mostly due to Live's use of the right stick for dribbling - it gives you way more control of the dribbling.

Live's jump shooting is also amazing and very revolutionary, in that the type of shot you do is totally determined by your player's momentum and the direction that you move the left stick. If you are moving to the right, your player will do a "moving leaner" to the right, as opposed to 2k, where you would be forced to stop and do a slow "set shot." Player momentum does not play a role in 2k's jump shots AT ALL (except with some players, like Kobe). 2k's jump shooting overall is just very slow.

2k's jump shooting is just a mess. With most players you can only shoot "set shots" and 2k doesn't even allow most players to do leaners and moving jumpers. Live's jump shooting is sooooo intuitive and quick - it is smooth as silk.

Also, 2k has almost no body contact compared to Live. In 2k, is it so easy to get into the paint because there is just no body contact with defenders. You just slip and slide around defenders like a greased pig and shots in the paint are way too easy to make because of the lack of body contact on layups and dunks.

Live has great body contact on defense so you can really stop penetration by "bodying up" the ball handler. Live also has great contact in the paint on layups and dunks which prevents too many easy inside shots.

My only real problem with Live is the passing. Live's passing feels pretty slow and sluggish. Live's passers don't have great "awareness" of passing angles and the importance of using different "pass types" to avoid the defenders (high lobs, low bounce passes, moving passes, etc.).

This is mostly evident by a lack of "high arching lob passes" to get the ball over a defender or crowd of defenders. Rather than throw a lob pass over the defenders as he should, the passer will usually throw a "line drive chest pass" that goes directly into the hands of the defense and it gets stolen. So basically pass animation AI needs to be improved so the game better recognizes when it is appropriate to use a "high lob pass" or "line drive chest pass" or a "low bounce pass" based on where the defenders are and if they are in in the passing lane and position to steal the ball.

This could be remedied by simply adding more types of pass animations to the game so that there is an appropriate animation for every type of situation and possible locations of defenders.

Above I mentioned that Live's passers don't use proper pass animations, but the receivers also don't move to create better pass angles. Receivers should have better AI awareness of passing angles, so they will move to the best spot for you to get a clean pass to them.

When you pass to a player, the receiver should "move on his own" and kind of "come to the ball" to create the best passing angle to get him the ball cleanly. This type of pass AI is something 2k does very well, as 2k's passing angle AI is very smart. In 2k, there are a variety of pass types (high lobs to get over defenders, low bounce passes to go under defenders, and chest passes when you have a clear lane to the receiver) and 2k's AI is good about using the proper type of pass by recognizing where the defenders are.

My biggest problem with Live, however is with pass receiving. The problems is that cutting players will stop to catch passes rather than catching the pass on the move and continuing their cut trajectory.

This really kills the gameplay. For example, you will have a teammate who is cutting to the hoop for a layup and you will pass to him, but as soon as you pass, the receiver will stop dead in his tracks as he catches the ball, and the scoring opportunity is killed. This happens with normal icon passing as well as when you pass to a guy who you are controlling with offball receiver control. It is especially annoying when you use offball receiver control to make a guy cut, only to see him stop cutting when you pass him the ball. This pretty much defeats the purpose of offball receiver control because you can't really get the receiver open if he stops moving to catch a pass.

I think passing with off ball receiver control should work more like 2k's lead passing...by this I mean that when you use lead passing, the receiver will make a quick, strong cut (not a slow one) and he will keep moving as he catches the ball (even taking a few extra steps in that direction for good measure and to ensure the continuation of the intended cut).

As a default, the players should be programmed to continue running in that direction after they catch a pass while cutting. There is never a situation where you would want a player to stop cutting after catching the pass, so just make it automatic for him to continue running for at least 2 or 3 steps.

Overall, when controlling offball receivers, they also just move too slowly - so slowly that you can't really get them open anyways. When controlling an offball receiver, he should move with more urgency, like he is really trying to lose his defender.

A few final nit picks. Live's post game is pretty limited. I think Live should just copy 2k's post game, because 2k's post game is pretty deep and allows you to pull off almost any post move you can think of.

Another area that needs improvement - shot blocking and rebounding. These animations just need to be tuned for next year.

Steal animations also need to be improved so that when you hit the steal button, your player will "lunge" toward the ball rather than just standing in place and swatting his arm.

That's it. I have made my final decision and my final thought is that overall, Live is a much more realistic game that gives you WAY more control (I find Gamespot's reviews of both games to be pretty much dead on). 2k's animations are amazing, but their controls are a mess. I think right now 2k is kind of trying to cover up their lack of depth by distracting us with tons of cool animations - but under the surface there really is very little control in 2k. Live is moving in the better direction, and all they have to do at this point is improve their passing and add some better contextual animations (layups, passes, steals, dunks, blocks, in air collisions between dunkers and shot blockers, etc.).

[ProStylez]

Quote: Originally Posted by blues rocker

I've been playing both Live and 2k back and forth to compare them, and I have my final thoughts on Live (just a warning to the mods, I'm going to be mentioning 2k, but only as a way to better explain my thoughts). Live's dribbling controls are amazing and totally revolutionary. The dribbling alone makes the game worth buying. Live's dribbling is so much deeper and more responsive than 2k. In 2k, I can maybe pull off a spin move 1 out of 10 tries. In Live, I can do a spin move every time. In Live, I can do a any move I can think of on demand. I can do a crossover whenever I want, I can do a step back whenever I want. This is mostly due to Live's use of the right stick for dribbling - it gives you way more control of the dribbling. Live's jump shooting is also amazing and very revolutionary, in that the type of shot you do is totally determined by your player's momentum and the direction that you move the left stick. If you are moving to the right, your player will do a "moving leaner" to the right, as opposed to 2k, where you would be forced to stop and do a slow "set shot." Player momentum does not play a role in 2k's jump shots AT ALL (except with some players, like Kobe). 2k's jump shooting overall is just very slow. 2k's jump shooting is just a mess. With most players you can only shoot "set shots" and 2k doesn't even allow most players to do leaners and moving jumpers. Live's jump shooting is sooooo intuitive and quick - it is smooth as silk. Also, 2k has almost no body contact compared to Live. In 2k, is it so easy to get into the paint because there is just no body contact with defenders. You just slip and slide around defenders like a greased pig and shots in the paint are way too easy to make because of the lack of body contact on layups and dunks. Live has great body contact on defense so you can really stop penetration by "bodying up" the ball handler. Live also has great contact in the paint on layups and dunks which prevents too many easy inside shots. My only real problem with Live is the passing. Live's passing feels pretty slow and sluggish. Live's passers don't have great "awareness" of passing angles and the importance of using different "pass types" to avoid the defenders (high lobs, low bounce passes, moving passes, etc.). This is mostly evident by a lack of "high arching lob passes" to get the ball over a defender or crowd of defenders. Rather than throw a lob pass over the defenders as he should, the passer will usually throw a "line drive chest pass" that goes directly into the hands of the defense and it gets stolen. So basically pass animation AI needs to be improved so the game better recognizes when it is appropriate to use a "high lob pass" or "line drive chest pass" or a "low bounce pass" based on where the defenders are and if they are in in the passing lane and position to steal the ball. This could be remedied by simply adding more types of pass animations to the game so that there is an appropriate animation for every type of situation and possible locations of defenders. Above I mentioned that Live's passers don't use proper pass animations, but the receivers also don't move to create better pass angles. Receivers should have better AI awareness of passing angles, so they will move to the best spot for you to get a clean pass to them. When you pass to a player, the receiver should "move on his own" and kind of "come to the ball" to create the best passing angle to get him the ball cleanly. This type of pass AI is something 2k does very well, as 2k's passing angle AI is very smart. In 2k, there are a variety of pass types (high lobs to get over defenders, low bounce passes to go under defenders, and chest passes when you have a clear lane to the receiver) and 2k's AI is good about using the proper type of pass by recognizing where the defenders are. My biggest problem with Live, however is with pass receiving. The problems is that cutting players will stop to catch passes rather than catching the pass on the move and continuing their cut trajectory. This really kills the gameplay. For example, you will have a teammate who is cutting to the hoop for a layup and you will pass to him, but as soon as you pass, the receiver will stop dead in his tracks as he catches the ball, and the scoring opportunity is killed. This happens with normal icon passing as well as when you pass to a guy who you are controlling with offball receiver control. It is especially annoying when you use offball receiver control to make a guy cut, only to see him stop cutting when you pass him the ball. This pretty much defeats the purpose of offball receiver control because you can't really get the receiver open if he stops moving to catch a pass. I think passing with off ball receiver control should work more like 2k's lead passing...by this I mean that when you use lead passing, the receiver will make a quick, strong cut (not a slow one) and he will keep moving as he catches the ball (even taking a few extra steps in that direction for good measure and to ensure the continuation of the intended cut). As a default, the players should be programmed to continue running in that direction after they catch a pass while cutting. There is never a situation where you would want a player to stop cutting after catching the pass, so just make it automatic for him to continue running for at least 2 or 3 steps. Overall, when controlling offball receivers, they also just move too slowly - so slowly that you can't really get them open anyways. When controlling an offball receiver, he should move with more urgency, like he is really trying to lose his defender. A few final nit picks. Live's post game is pretty limited. I think Live should just copy 2k's post game, because 2k's post game is pretty deep and allows you to pull off almost any post move you can think of. Another area that needs improvement - shot blocking and rebounding. These animations just need to be tuned for next year. Steal animations also need to be improved so that when you hit the steal button, your player will "lunge" toward the ball rather than just standing in place and swatting his arm. That's it. I have made my final decision and my final thought is that overall, Live is a much more realistic game that gives you WAY more control (I find Gamespot's reviews of both games to be pretty much dead on). 2k's animations are amazing, but their controls are a mess. I think right now 2k is kind of trying to cover up their lack of depth by distracting us with tons of cool animations - but under the surface there really is very little control in 2k. Live is moving in the better direction, and all they have to do at this point is improve their passing and add some more contextual animations (layups, dunks, blocks, etc.).

I can't agree enough with the players stopping their cuts to the hoop once the ball comes their way!!
I played a game as the celtics and had 2 backdoor baseline chances with pierce and allen but as soon as they caught the ball they would stop their momentum to the hoop and stand in place while catching the ball which caused the defense to collapse on me and I had to kick it back out
In 2k they would continue to their move to the hoop while catching the ball in stride for a easy dunk or layup.

[michaeljordanjr]

Good final thoughts Blues..

I picked Live 10 as the 2009 simply because I can recreate a real life NBA game as close as I was ever able to in NBA game history with NBA Live 10. It just feels like a real NBA game. There's nothing fluky about the moves players pull off. Everything looks realistic.

[The 24th Letter]

Blues youve posted this like 10 times now havent you? lol