APF Players' Response to Madden 10 News

[Nintari]

Quote: Originally Posted by Pappy Knuckles

I played 2 games of APF with 15thHunter before downloading the Madden demo, so both were fresh on my mind. I'm one of the biggest supporters of 2K5 and APF that there is, but Madden 10 is a good game. I think a lot of times when you really like a game you tend to overlook its faults. As great as APF is, it is by no means a perfect game. Madden 10 does a lot of things better. I've had some great times with APF, but leaving it behind this season will not be very difficult.

List some things Madden does gameplay wise that is superior and provide reasoning behind each one.

I'd like to see just how far you can get lol.

[Pappy Knuckles]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nintari

List some things Madden does gameplay wise that is superior and provide reasoning behind each one. I'd like to see just how far you can get lol.

I detect a bit of smartass in your reply, all that isn't needed. I posted a few things previously but I'll state some of them again for your sake.

The passing game is better in Madden 10. The pocket forms better, you don't have receivers constantly dropping wide open catches that they should make, and the routes are much more varied.

The defense is a lot better. I'm not seeing the bonehead stuff that I did in APF. I don't fall on my face if I'm still making adjustments when the ball is snapped. Guys do a better job of covering their assigned man or zone. I feel like I'm rewarded for making good calls and it's not as dependent on personnel.

The ball physics are better. The way the ball hangs or zips in depending on your pass is great. When the ball is deflected it doesn't bounce around in the air like a beach ball until someone picks it off. It reacts as if it's weighted correctly.

I don't know if I'd say the animations are better in Madden but it's damn good. The way the players move around the field looks very natural. The way the receivers and db's interact when going up for a pass is fantastic. There are also very solid tackling and blocking animations.

I ran a QB sneak with Warner the other day and he actually ducked down low to get behind his line. I was very impressed. I also had a play where I stopped Willie Parker on the one yard line by picking him up and slamming him on his back like one of my favorite APF tackles. That play kept them out of my endzone and forced them to kick a field goal. There is a good amount of clipping that occurs in Madden, but that was in APF as well. I've actually spent quite a bit of time using the instant replay feature to better appreciate some of the animation work.

Tackling makes more sense in Madden. While I liked the tackling in APF a lot, I was often able to make superman dives at someone and take them down. If you dive at someone from too far away in Madden you're likely to fall on your belly looking like a fool.

The special teams play is better in Madden. It's crazy watching the whole team swarm to the ball on kickoffs and punt returns. A lot of times in APF you'd have guys looking like they were lost in space somewhere. I've run back tons of kicks in APF and it was usually just due to me finding a little crease and being faster than whoever was chasing me. I've run back two so far and both were due to making a cut and being fortunate enough to break a tackle. I get the feeling that returns will be more rewarding in this game. I also get the feeling that I wont have to worry about the ball bouncing off my facemask, or dropping balls kicked at a certain angle all the time.

That's just a handful of things. I can understand everyone having a preference but I don't see how one can be objective and act as if APF is light years ahead of Madden 10 after playing the demo.

[s38s38s]

Quote: Originally Posted by wEEman33

After playing the demo, they've definitely improved the presentation, but I don't feel like the gameplay is there yet. Too many age-old Madden problems exist in this game: suction blocking-In APF every stretch, sweep, power-O, dive, etc.(can't count the times my OLB had the angle but rotated in place to be sucked into a block) there used to be threads on the 2k forums talking about this suction tackling (new this year thanks to Pro Tak)-In APF, every time you run past a defender on a block aka "Reach Tackle" bad AI-Did you really say this as slow as LB reads on runs and passes are, and DB's in coverage (again there have been countless threads about this flaw in APF as well) wonky physics-Kinda like how you need to have a player with "Quick Feet" to have any real control and realistic change in direction/burst in manual coverage robotic player movement-This I can't say much about b/c APF's animations for running are alot smoother Until they can get some of that stuff out of the game, I'll stick with APF 2K8.

The truth in RED.

[teambayern]

Played the 1 minute demo, so it's tough to really get a feel. I might preorder to get the longer one (if i still can) or just rent it when it comes out.

So far, I'm somewhere in between the guys who like (Pappy, s38) and everyone else. My initial reaction was that it was much improved over Madden 09, but that it was really just a great version of a game/engine that I don't like and don't think portrays realistic football. Through more games, I'm coming around more and more to Madden 10.

W/ respect to APF, here are some quick thoughts:

Pro's for M10:
-better defensive logic in pass defense. they stick to assignments, and rarely get beat on plays where they shouldn't be. in APF, guys tend to float more, and don't always know what's going on.
-field size: the scope of the game feels more true to the NFL in terms of player spacing, length and size of field.
-passes: hang in the air nicely (except for the long bombs, FG's, and short throws when hit early, all of which hang in the air like they've got wings)
-gang tackling- it is nice when runs up the middle get stuffed by half the team

Cons
-D-line: The DE's don't really get up the field at all, and there's is a serious lack of pass rush (although there are rumors this is from the old build before they improved that). on runs, DT's stuff the middle too easily.
-O-line: matching the above, the O-line still feels like a mess on runs plays, with a lot of missed blocks. There are lanes, but they aren't near the quality I see in APF. You can't see everything fall into place, then fall apart by a great move by an LB, ect. APF did this very well IMO.
-locomotion- while much better, it still feels twitchy to me compared to APF. It makes you realize how much better APF is when you can say that M10 is light years ahead of M09 in this regard, but still far below APF.

Question marks:
-the player individuation was poor in past maddens, and top-notch in APF. It is too early to tell whether M10 made strides in this area, but I haven't seen any indication yet that the individuation has improved. I'm keeping an open mind though.
-this could be my lack of game skill so I put it under this section, but the plays still seem to develop around you too much. I don't feel that the animations and camera angles give you the chance to make the play like in APF.

At this point, the last one is my biggest concern, and the thing that will make or break the game for me. The more I play the demo, the more I think the depth of gameplay is there, and the more I think I'll be able to make those plays as I get more skilled. Then again, that's what I thought about 09 until I realized that there wasn't really any depth. In fact, playing 09 then going back to APF made me realize how great APF was. I'm hoping I don't get the same feeling from M10.

In the end, the thing that will separate this game from being just a great Madden (but poor football game) and an excellent simulation will be how the games are won. If the outcomes seem arbitrary or driven by exploits that get countered with other exploits, then I won't shell out the 60 for it. On the other hand, if the outcomes are driven by football decisions and countered with football decisions, I am more than happy to overlook even big flaws, the same as I did for APF.

[Pappy Knuckles]

Good call on the field size, Bayern. That is very noticable.

[Nintari]

Quote: Originally Posted by Pappy Knuckles

I detect a bit of smartass in your reply, all that isn't needed.

Actually, that's the first "insult" thrown between the both of us. But I won't take it personally.

Quote: Originally Posted by Pappy Knuckles

The passing game is better in Madden 10. The pocket forms better, you don't have receivers constantly dropping wide open catches that they should make, and the routes are much more varied.

Wrong and wrong again. The passing game is NOT better in Madden for alot of reasons. There's no touch on the ball like APF. In that game, you can use maximum passing to get the ball to do exactly what you want it to do. If you have a TE over the top of a LB and you're good you can feather a lob right in there. In Madden, doing this is a real crap shoot and 9 times out of 10 the LB does a Master Chief like move and either unrealistically knocks it down or picks it off as if he's a physic.

The pocket is better, but crap compared to APF and most of it has to do with blocking AI. You can't get good protection when the CPU blitzes because there's always some dumb idiot on your OL who's blocking nothing but air. Meanwhile, the CPU LB is flying through a gaping hole, untouched, 6 inches away from your lineman. It just happened in my demo a few hours ago.

And I don't know what you're talking about with the not dropping catches bit. I've dropped like 10 open passes since I've started playing the demo....and most of them were for potential TDs. It's another part of the good ol' slot machine they use.

Quote: Originally Posted by Pappy Knuckles

The defense is a lot better. I'm not seeing the bonehead stuff that I did in APF. I don't fall on my face if I'm still making adjustments when the ball is snapped. Guys do a better job of covering their assigned man or zone. I feel like I'm rewarded for making good calls and it's not as dependent on personnel.

Defense is better? How can that be when you can't get pressure with your DL? How can that be when I call a cover 4, and Romo completes 27 yard bombs all the way down the field because of the AI boost? Oh and as far as "falling over" goes, that's on you. It's not nearly as bad as when you're trying to pick someone in Madden before the snap, go to hit B to cycle backwards through the players and it brings up some stupid menu on the top right of the screen.

Quote: Originally Posted by Pappy Knuckles

The ball physics are better. The way the ball hangs or zips in depending on your pass is great. When the ball is deflected it doesn't bounce around in the air like a beach ball until someone picks it off. It reacts as if it's weighted correctly.

The ball is as small as a hockey puck and feels like it's full of cement. As I said earlier, either you throw a 4 foot high bullet or you lob it 50 feet in the air. There's like two speeds and that's it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Pappy Knuckles

I don't know if I'd say the animations are better in Madden but it's damn good. The way the players move around the field looks very natural.

Are you REALLY going to try an argue over animations? I don't remember the last time I watched an NFL game and saw potty training/tron jogging etc. Seriously...lets not even go there.

Quote: Originally Posted by Pappy Knuckles

Tackling makes more sense in Madden. While I liked the tackling in APF a lot, I was often able to make superman dives at someone and take them down. If you dive at someone from too far away in Madden you're likely to fall on your belly looking like a fool.

Exactly...and that's because Madden has no control. In APF, if I'm good, I can take someone down in the open field no problem because the controls are so intuitive and precise. In Madden, if you're one second off and try to tackle the guy...he's gone. This goes for the whole game too. When you run, you're basically just steering a guy around. There's only TWO speeds and all you do is hold the button down which is sleep inducing. In APF, you have analog control, and you have to know how to use the A button during taps. You also have the charge up feature which adds even MORE control because it alters every special move. Madden just feels dead in comparison. It's like you're never really CONTROLLING the player your using so much as GUIDING them.

Quote: Originally Posted by Pappy Knuckles

I've run back tons of kicks in APF and it was usually just due to me finding a little crease and being faster than whoever was chasing me.

Which is what Hester does every time he takes one to the house. That's how you are SUPPOSE to return kicks. It's about finding a crease and BAM, exploding through it and then beating the last guy or two with speed. Watch Hesters kick off return in the super bowl if you don't believe me.

APF puts that in YOUR hands...not in the hands of some random AI slot machine. If you're good, you're rewarded with great returns most of the time. In Madden, it doesn't matter because the AI predetermines what's going to happen. That feeling of "reward" is only there because it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to do and you're never really sure when it's going to happen.

Quote: Originally Posted by Pappy Knuckles

That's just a handful of things. I can understand everyone having a preference but I don't see how one can be objective and act as if APF is light years ahead of Madden 10 after playing the demo.

If you want, you can go ahead and look in the Madden impressions thread and check out my first post after playing the demo for the first time. I WAS floored and I felt pretty good about it. But then, the more I played, the more the engine reared it's ugly face and the more frustrated I got until I decided to put APF in my 360 and have a look. I did it RIGHT after playing the Madden demo and it was like "WTH was I thinking?". I forgot how much ease and control you have in APF and how great the gameplay was. It's truly the best we've ever seen and I think the fact that to this day, people still bring it up tells you just how truthful that is. Yes, there's alot of fanboys who are just bitter and want to hate on everything EA does, but there's alot of people out there like me that REALLY want an NFL football game to play really bad. I try every year to get into Madden but can't because the engine blows so badly. It plays and feels NOTHING like APF, or 2k5 and no pro-tak/game speed or online franchise is going to change that. It's the engine and it can't be fixed without them scraping it and starting over...something they're not going to do anytime soon.

I'm going to pass this year. Maybe I'll cave and get it when it's $20.00, or rent it day one just because I love the NFL so much but I really can't make myself pay full price on a product like this when APF is right there on the shelf, and much much better. I don't see the point in that at all.

[Pappy Knuckles]

I disagree with most of what you said but I respect your opinion

[kcxiv]

After playing the demo a few times, it convinced me to pass. Its still inferior gameplay wise to apf. I will stick to Street Fighter IV and wait for NBA2K10.

Getting better, but nintari pretty much said everything that needed to be said. He speaks truth. Let people convince themselves though. I would to if i was a fiend for the NFL product and was going to drop 65 bucks on it heh

[spankdatazz22]

Quote: Originally Posted by Pappy Knuckles

That's just a handful of things. I can understand everyone having a preference but I don't see how one can be objective and act as if APF is light years ahead of Madden 10 after playing the demo.

Just curious... wondering if it's possible to determine how much being able to play with NFL teams/players weighs into what you were saying. I like the Madden demo overall, but have to disagree with you on a lot of things. No offense but the "players move around the field and look natural" comment was pretty laughable. There's not a lot that looks natural [imo] in regards to movement with Madden.

Still, I think the game will be at the very least playable, if you can look past the weird physics and oddities. I've seen receivers catch passes, get contact in the air, then go even higher lol - and it's happened consistently. Some passes still look like moonshots. I threw deep with Ben and he threw the ball probably 60yds completely flat-footed. QB footwork overall is pretty bad. There's weird offensive line behavior sometimes, like linemen completely turning their backs to defenders and such (and no way the pocket is better than in APF). I hate the lumbering run animation and that player speeds seem to only be slow and not so slow. Tackles can frequently be too soft.

But there's a lot of cool stuff too. The left stick juking finally is somewhat effective, and can pull off some cool looking jukes. There's lots of variety to the wrap tackles. On defense once you're engaged with an offensive player the right stick moves seem to be very responsive. There's a lot more I could go into, pro or con. But I do think overall the slow, painful progression the game has had is finally showing some promise. It'll probably be a fun game, but don't think it'll beat APF in terms of gameplay just yet. Although that's kinda sad, given what both games are.

[XYourSimDeityX]

Madden is trash...substandard trash and always will be until EA totally scraps that kiddie engine they've been patching for the last 10 years.

Anyone who says Madden 10 is superior to APF 2K8 is most likely just a puppet of the combined marketing influences of EA, The No Fun League and Pop Culture.

I understand everyone wants a 'New' Football game to play, a game with current players, logos and flash but unless you are a franchise kiddie, there is no reason to buy Madden 10 and here's why.....The game you want is football, right...well Madden is not the best game that represents the sport of football...remember kiddos the NFL is not a sport...it's a league which performs the sport, so a true fan of football would be playing APF 2K8 until another game comes along that better represents the sport....and thats the bottom line.

So sports gamers get off the conveyer belt leading to the abertois of Madden Mediocrity.... and pick up APF 2K8..there is no better football game on the market......

Good day....