Poll: Is a "war" against Mexican Cartels inevitable?

[DeToxRox]

Just reading more and more about how fubar Mexico is right now, with the last gem being the million dollar bounty placed on a Mexican Sheriff's head, it is seeming inevitable that the US is going to end up intervening down there. The Mexican Government is not going to be able to handle the situation, and it's only going to continue to escalate.

I think it is becoming inevitable that American's will die there as a direct result of the Cartel Wars and lead to the US using some military action in Mexico.

So are we going to go Jack Ryan on their ass?

[molson]

Not our problem until it really spills across the border.

And chaos in Mexico only increases our access to cheap, illegal labor!

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by molson

Not our problem until it really spills across the border.

And chaos in Mexico only increases our access to cheap, illegal labor!

Well played.

I do think that is a good point though. The Cartels are (most likely) not going to be dumb enough to attack American's on US soil, but the wars are creeping over the borders and all it takes is one attack to go awry before shit hits the fan.

[lungs]

Should've let all that business stay in Colombia. Now it's moved right to our door step.

[panerd]

If you are asking if US troops will ever go there then I would say that depends on when the public has enough with the Middle East and then the bloated military industrial complex will have to find somewhere else to go. (North Korea maybe?) If you are just talking covert US/DEA/CIA military action than I would be willing to lay a lot of my money that this has already been going on for years. Got to do American's parenting for them to keep the evil drugs away from the children! What about the children!

[Kodos]

We should legalize drugs, produce them in the U.S., and tax the hell out of them.

[molson]

Originally Posted by lungs

Should've let all that business stay in Colombia. Now it's moved right to our door step.

It's hard to justify waging war on another country's criminals though. Do we really need American prosecutors added to the bounty list?

It will get interesting though, if they really try to setup shop on our side of the border. That's a physical invasion, any way you look at it. Which opens up all kinds of interesting possibilites, including for state militias.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by molson

It's hard to justify waging war on another country's criminals though. Do we really need American prosecutors added to the bounty list?

It will get interesting though, if they really try to setup shop on our side of the border. That's a physical invasion, any way you look at it. Which opens up all kinds of interesting possibilites, including for state militias.

Exactly why our efforts in the 1990s in Colombia have essentially moved the cocaine trade right to our doorstep where the cartels have easier access to our prosecutors and others that wouldn't be happy about interdiction efforts.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Kodos

We should legalize drugs, produce them in the U.S., and tax the hell out of them.

A survey of high school and middle school kids found that a larger percentage of them know where to buy marijuana than alcohol. Regulate it and then let adults do whatever the hell they want. I know I sound like a broken record sometimes but a lot of these progressive ideals aren't that bad in theory. I don't want prostitutes on my street, don't want drugs in my kid's schools, don't want people going broke from gambling. Problem is... they doesn't work. Good parenting works, government can't do parenting for the bad ones.

[Sun Tzu]

Allow the president to invade a neighboring nation, whenever he shall deem it necessary, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such a purpose—and you allow him to make war at pleasure.

~Abraham Lincoln

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by panerd

Good parenting works, government can't do parenting for the bad ones.

This is a black and white approach to a shades of grey-type of problem.

[Autumn]

I think given the geopolitical and security concerns of having a collapsing state right on our border, it's a given that we will take action if things continue to deteriorate. I'm sure like most military involvements it will be couched in different terms than that. But one of the reasons we have been the world power we have is that we don't have security concerns on our doorstep. Mexico remaining stable is a huge necessity for our security, whatever its impact on us otherwise.

[AENeuman]

it's confusing when the poll options are in half spanish and half english...

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by panerd

A survey of high school and middle school kids found that a larger percentage of them know where to buy marijuana than alcohol. Regulate it and then let adults do whatever the hell they want. I know I sound like a broken record sometimes but a lot of these progressive ideals aren't that bad in theory. I don't want prostitutes on my street, don't want drugs in my kid's schools, don't want people going broke from gambling. Problem is... they doesn't work. Good parenting works, government can't do parenting for the bad ones.

So what do you do for the kids with bad parents?

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

So what do you do for the kids with bad parents?

Sterilize them.

[JediKooter]

No trout option?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

A survey of high school and middle school kids found that a larger percentage of them know where to buy marijuana than alcohol. Regulate it and then let adults do whatever the hell they want. I know I sound like a broken record sometimes but a lot of these progressive ideals aren't that bad in theory. I don't want prostitutes on my street, don't want drugs in my kid's schools, don't want people going broke from gambling. Problem is... they doesn't work. Good parenting works, government can't do parenting for the bad ones.

That's the crazy thing about making illegal. It's ridiculously easy to get. It sort of is legal in a way when you can buy it as easily as any other good. We just choose to waste resources policing something that can't be policed.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Just reading more and more about how fubar Mexico is right now, with the last gem being the million dollar bounty placed on a Mexican Sheriff's head, it is seeming inevitable that the US is going to end up intervening down there.

It's not a Mexican Sheriff.

There are reports out of Arizona that the Juarez cartel is offering one million dollars for execution of Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

Arpaio, as you know is the often called the toughest Sheriff in the country.

According to various reports, the bounty was offered via text message that went out over the weekend in Phoenix.

Officials with the Sheriff's Department in Maricopa County tells the NBC station in Phoenix that they do not know for sure whether the threat is really from the Juarez cartel but they do know that it was made from a cell phone in Mexico.

hxxp://www.ktsm.com/arizona-sheriff-targeted-by-the-juarez-cartel

[molson]

All the violence is somewhat of a decent sign in the sense that these cartels are really being challenged, both by the Mexican government and each other.

A worse scenerio might be just a couple of cartels peacefully controlling everything, including the government, unchallenged. Or actually, maybe that would be better. I have no idea. Why did you ask me?

[JPhillips]

Given Arpaio's history, I'm going to be skeptical until I see some evidence.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Also, the irony is that Arpaio's "tough" on illegals policing has led to an increase in his crime rate while the areas around him have had crime drop. Shockingly, when you're more worried about every Jose that has snuck across the border than actual criminals committing crimes that effect other people, things don't go that great.

What crimes effect other people? I know of several which affect other people but none off the top of my head that have the effect of effecting other people except maybe rape in places where abortion is strictly not allowed. Then you could effect another person. Is this what you had in mind? I didn't realize that rape statistics were that bad in Phoenix but they could be I guess.

[EagleFan]

So how much is the bounty...

[Greyroofoo]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Maybe I was being vague, but I meant that illegal immigration while a crime doesn't directly effect someone else like a rape, robbery, murder, etc, etc. Like I said, crime in the urban areas around Apario's little domain have gone down while they've gone up in Apraio's jurisdiction despite the fact that the illegal immigration populations as a percentage are about the same in both places.

Links by any chance?

[stevew]

Originally Posted by EagleFan

So how much is the bounty...

and is it a quicker picker upper

[Noop]

Might as well annex Mexico and lay waste to the Cartels.

[molson]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Adam Serwer Archive | The American Prospect

Via Elise Foley comes another myth-busting graph from the pro-immigration group America's Voice Online, which shows that crime has gone up drastically in Maricopa County while dropping in the rest of Arizona despite (because of?) the draconian anti-immigrant policies of its conservative celebrity sheriff, Joe Arpaio:



Jack Harris, the police chief in Phoenix, where crime has gone down 14 percent since 2002, wrote a declaration supporting the Justice Department's lawsuit against Arizona over SB 1070 saying, "deterring, investigating, and solving serious and violent crimes and it would be impossible to do our job without the collaboration and support of community members, even though they may be in the country unlawfully."

How can crime be way up in a county but way down in the four biggest cities in that county? That seems like some kind of administrative/jurisdictional change rather than a meaningful trend.

Edit: As best as I can tell with quick research the county sheriff's jurisdiction covers mostly unincorporated land in the county. They also handle some corrections/prisoner handling stuff. Probably not worthy of the attention the loudmouth Sheriff gets. But I'm not sure how his views on illegal immigration are increasing crime in unincorporated areas (except that he's probably more aggressive than the city police departments, which will mean higher "crime rates", or as they can be more realistically described, "rate of crimes reported").

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

This is a black and white approach to a shades of grey-type of problem.

You're right. And The Wire (I do realize it is fiction but damn close to reality in every area I have some personal experience with) shows that the police treat it like a black and white problem as well. Season 4: Incredible truth on the good and the bad of legalization but also the complete hypocrisy of whatever the hell is going on right now. The US/DEA policy on drugs is about as black and white as you can get. What are we at now for our drug related prison populations 50%+?

[molson]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Or more likely, when you're focusing on catching Jose with "immigration checkpoints" and such, you don't have enough officers looking for Bobby raping somebody or Charlie robbing a liquor store.

Odd choice of names to try to make your point.

The County Sheriff's entire jurisdiction appears to consist of a few thousand people and a whole lot of desert. I can see why they're so obsessed with illegal immigrants, because there isn't much else for them to do.

And they run the county jails and "tent cities." Which they don't appear to be very good at.

[Mike D]

Good enough for me not to want to go.

So let's frame the graphic.

Should we say...

"Crime is way up in Arpaio's county"

or is it...

"No dent on holding people accountable anywhere but in Arpaio's county"?

I don't know if the report is saying that there is actually more crime or more reports and arrests. I'm not sure.

[Poli]

I'm fairly certain Detox needs to do the right thing here. This thread might be the first thread he's ever created where the title needs edited.

Poll: POLL:

Really?

[miked]

Originally Posted by molson

Odd choice of names to try to make your point.

The County Sheriff's entire jurisdiction appears to consist of a few thousand people and a whole lot of desert. I can see why they're so obsessed with illegal immigrants, because there isn't much else for them to do.

And they run the county jails and "tent cities." Which they don't appear to be very good at.

It probably also helps the crime rate that he allegedly trumps up charges and investigations against his political opponents only to get no convictions after bankrupting them and winning the election.

[DeToxRox]

Originally Posted by Poli

I'm fairly certain Detox needs to do the right thing here. This thread might be the first thread he's ever created where the title needs edited.

Poll: POLL:

Really?

How dare you? .. But ok.

[lungs]

This is getting to be pretty crazy down there. 72 migrants were kidnapped and executed by one of the cartels. Mayors are being assassinated with the help of police. In Cuernavaca, a city I visited 6 years ago (and one of the most tranquil places I visited in Mexico) they found four beheaded people hanging from a bridge.

Honestly, what Mexico needs is a full blown revolution and a guy like Fidel Castro to take charge. Not necessarily a Communist, but a guy that will clean up a mess. When Castro took over Cuba it was run by the mafia and when the mafia tried to pay off Castro he had them taken to the wall and shot.

Mexico needs a strongman to break the culture of corruption in the police force. Take all the crooked cops to the wall and shoot them. Mass purges.

Sure, we can take steps here to limit the demand for the cartels but the corruption of Mexico is deeply ingrained and they need to get brutal to weed it out.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by lungs

This is getting to be pretty crazy down there. 72 migrants were kidnapped and executed by one of the cartels. Mayors are being assassinated with the help of police. In Cuernavaca, a city I visited 6 years ago (and one of the most tranquil places I visited in Mexico) they found four beheaded people hanging from a bridge.

Honestly, what Mexico needs is a full blown revolution and a guy like Fidel Castro to take charge. Not necessarily a Communist, but a guy that will clean up a mess. When Castro took over Cuba it was run by the mafia and when the mafia tried to pay off Castro he had them taken to the wall and shot.

Mexico needs a strongman to break the culture of corruption in the police force. Take all the crooked cops to the wall and shoot them. Mass purges.

Sure, we can take steps here to limit the demand for the cartels but the corruption of Mexico is deeply ingrained and they need to get brutal to weed it out.

I'm all for meeting their brutal violent with a few ICBMs, torture and sodomy from the harden few.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Noop

I'm all for meeting their brutal violent with a few ICBMs, torture and sodomy from the harden few.

I kind of get the ICBMs and torture - but the sodomy seems like a bit of overkill.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by molson

I kind of get the ICBMs and torture - but the sodomy seems like a bit of overkill.

I don't know about you but if someone is threatening to butt rape me I would stop doing whatever it is I am doing. For the few who are able to maintain resolve through torture and ICBMs the butt rape is for them.

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by lungs

This is getting to be pretty crazy down there. 72 migrants were kidnapped and executed by one of the cartels. Mayors are being assassinated with the help of police. In Cuernavaca, a city I visited 6 years ago (and one of the most tranquil places I visited in Mexico) they found four beheaded people hanging from a bridge.

Honestly, what Mexico needs is a full blown revolution and a guy like Fidel Castro to take charge. Not necessarily a Communist, but a guy that will clean up a mess. When Castro took over Cuba it was run by the mafia and when the mafia tried to pay off Castro he had them taken to the wall and shot.

Mexico needs a strongman to break the culture of corruption in the police force. Take all the crooked cops to the wall and shoot them. Mass purges.

Sure, we can take steps here to limit the demand for the cartels but the corruption of Mexico is deeply ingrained and they need to get brutal to weed it out.

The cartels are pretty brutal, well-organized, and are very large in numbers.
They are throwing dead bodies into caustic acid. They make Islamic terrorists look like pee-wee football players in their actions and organization.

I personally think we will have to send in our military at some point.

[Mike D]

Originally Posted by lungs

Honestly, what Mexico needs is a full blown revolution and a guy like Fidel Castro to take charge. Not necessarily a Communist, but a guy that will clean up a mess. When Castro took over Cuba it was run by the mafia and when the mafia tried to pay off Castro he had them taken to the wall and shot.

I thought Castro put all the criminals on boats and sent them to Miami?

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I thought Castro put all the criminals on boats and sent them to Miami?

Wasn't that in the late 70s or early 80s? I'm talking about 1959-1960 when he just took power.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

The cartels are pretty brutal, well-organized, and are very large in numbers.
They are throwing dead bodies into caustic acid. They make Islamic terrorists look like pee-wee football players in their actions and organization.

I personally think we will have to send in our military at some point.

Or we could change our drug laws. I think people will look back at the war on drugs at some point in the future much like we look at the Salem witch hunts, Al Capone, the crusades, the Red Scare, ... It really is quite silly. Write a million laws if you want about driving under the influence, providing drugs to minors, operating machinery under the influence, but make it legal for an adult to smoke a plant. Or let thousands of more Mexicans and South Americans die and then bring in the US military to solve the problem. That plan hasn't really ever backfired in the past 40 years.

[RomaGoth]

I may be in the minority here, but why don't we just build a wall and police it? Blah blah blah expensive blah blah blah. With the millions of dollars our government has pissed away over the years, we could have built several walls hundreds of feet thick to keep out all the nonsense. A wall would eliminate much of the need to send our military to yet another country that essentially is not our problem in the first place.

[sterlingice]

Millions of dollars for a wall that's over 1000 miles long? Try again.

(Well, unless you're using illeg-- er... undocumented labor )

SI

[molson]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I may be in the minority here, but why don't we just build a wall and police it? Blah blah blah expensive blah blah blah. With the millions of dollars our government has pissed away over the years, we could have built several walls hundreds of feet thick to keep out all the nonsense. A wall would eliminate much of the need to send our military to yet another country that essentially is not our problem in the first place.

I think that's considered racist (not just the wall part, which may or may not be practical, but enforcement of immigration laws generally).

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Millions of dollars for a wall that's over 1000 miles long? Try again.

(Well, unless you're using illeg-- er... undocumented labor )

SI

We have spent billions on stupid shit that has meant nothing, why not finally spend it on something that matters?

[sterlingice]

I dunno- I've heard estimates in the $100B-$200B range with probably another $10-$20B per year to man it and that doesn't keep out people who travel across the border by car. If it's 99% efficient for $100B/$10B, that's different than 50% and $200B/$20B.

There's a legitimate debate to have there but I don't have all the facts.

SI

[Mike D]

Originally Posted by lungs

Wasn't that in the late 70s or early 80s? I'm talking about 1959-1960 when he just took power.

Check your history. That's impossible. There is no way Tony Montana was on the same island with Fidel Castro for 20 years...and nothing was done about it.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

There's a legitimate debate to have there but I don't have all the facts.

SI

Nor do I.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I may be in the minority here, but why don't we just build a wall and police it? Blah blah blah expensive blah blah blah. With the millions of dollars our government has pissed away over the years, we could have built several walls hundreds of feet thick to keep out all the nonsense. A wall would eliminate much of the need to send our military to yet another country that essentially is not our problem in the first place.

But there's the rub. Mexico quite certainly is our problem in the first place. Our two countries are deeply interconnected and always will be by simple geopolitics and economics. You'll notice that the Great Wall of China has not been a widely adopted solution to these sort of issues for a reason.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

We have spent billions on stupid shit that has meant nothing, why not finally spend it on something that matters?

Grouping these two issues (Mexican Cartels/Drugs ; Illegal Immigration) is pretty stupid imo. On the one hand 99% of people coming over the border have nothing to do with drugs or cartels, and on the other hand building some massive fence won't stop the drugs from coming in - if anything it will only up the profits. As long as the potential revenue is as high as it is, prosecuting it harder and driving it further underground will only lead to it being controlled by more and more ruthless people. Legalizing at least marijuana is pretty much a necessity at some point, it's just a matter of how much money we want to waste prosecuting it before the fiscal reality outweighs the moral outrage.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Autumn

But there's the rub. Mexico quite certainly is our problem in the first place. Our two countries are deeply interconnected and always will be by simple geopolitics and economics. You'll notice that the Great Wall of China has not been a widely adopted solution to these sort of issues for a reason.

I am not sure how Mexico is our problem, when we clearly are unable to take care of things within our own borders with any kind of consistency. The border with Mexico is our problem, but the country of Mexico is not. The Great Wall of China was created for different reasons in a different age, but I would venture that if we had a wall of that build at our borders, we would have far fewer problems with immigration and such than we do now.