Robbie Alomar Retires

vtbub · 03-19-2005, 02:27 PM

According to SI.COM, the 10 time Gold Glover and spitter is hanging them up at 37.

Maple Leafs · 03-19-2005, 02:29 PM

So what hat does he wear into the Hall of Fame?

vtbub · 03-19-2005, 02:35 PM

Probably a Jay, it's where he played longest and has his rings.

bosshogg23 · 03-19-2005, 03:09 PM

Rarely do you see a player decline so quickly. Alomar had a .956 OPS in 2001 and a HIGH of .713 the next 3 years.

He was fun to watch when he was good though.

st.cronin · 03-19-2005, 03:16 PM

A poor man's Ryne Sandberg.

DaddyTorgo · 03-19-2005, 03:19 PM

so do we think he's a lock for the HoF then? Just because he had the 10 GG's? I dunno...I never really saw him as THAT good. Feel free to disprove me though, I didnt watch him all that much.

edit: I am speaking offensively here. I know that defensively he was great.

sovereignstar · 03-19-2005, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

so do we think he's a lock for the HoF then? Just because he had the 10 GG's? I dunno...I never really saw him as THAT good. Feel free to disprove me though, I didnt watch him all that much.

edit: I am speaking offensively here. I know that defensively he was great.

I think we need a separate "Is Robbie Alomar HOF material?" thread.

Draft Dodger · 03-19-2005, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st.cronin

A poor man's Ryne Sandberg.

or vise versa

162 game averages for Alomar and Sandberg



AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG   TB 

618  103  185  34  5  14   77  32  8  70  78  .300  .371  .443  274

628   99  179  30  6  21   79  26  8  57  94  .285  .344  .452  284

bosshogg23 · 03-19-2005, 03:37 PM

I dont think there is any question he goes into the HOF quickly.

2700 hits, 200 HRs, 474 stolen bases(only 114 caught stealing) and 1100 RBI.

General Mike · 03-19-2005, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

so do we think he's a lock for the HoF then? Just because he had the 10 GG's? I dunno...I never really saw him as THAT good. Feel free to disprove me though, I didnt watch him all that much.

edit: I am speaking offensively here. I know that defensively he was great.

He won 4 silver sluggers. His stats are very comparable to his NL contemporary, Craig Biggio. His numbers are very comparable to Sandberg as well, but there isn't as much overlap between the two. It really depends on what your HOF standards are. I'd vote for him, but I also think Alan Trammell and Lou Whitaker should be in the hall of fame.

Maple Leafs · 03-19-2005, 04:01 PM

Maybe it's because I grew up in TO, but I remember Alomar being considered the top 2B in the game for much of his career. He's in.

sovereignstar · 03-19-2005, 04:02 PM

Robbie Alomar reminded me of a young Bert Blylevan, so maybe he's not in.

Crapshoot · 03-19-2005, 08:56 PM

Robbie Alomar is a first ballot, no questions asked HOF. Else, we have a HOF of Bonds, Ruth, Johnson and Mays.

Young Drachma · 03-20-2005, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtbub

Probably a Jay, it's where he played longest and has his rings.

Heck yeah. Go Jays!

Young Drachma · 03-20-2005, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

so do we think he's a lock for the HoF then? Just because he had the 10 GG's? I dunno...I never really saw him as THAT good. Feel free to disprove me though, I didnt watch him all that much.

edit: I am speaking offensively here. I know that defensively he was great.

In his prime, he was among the class of second baseman in MLB. He did his best work in Toronto, which is why a lot of it was forgotten. But he's a hall of famer, no doubt.

And I know I'm a Jays fan, so it's not that reliable..but the man was one of the best at his position - certainly from the late 80s and most of the 90s.

Ragone · 03-20-2005, 06:05 AM

If he gets in.. Its time to let frank white in... grr

Swaggs · 03-20-2005, 07:47 AM

I think he is easily in.

Blackadar · 03-20-2005, 08:36 AM

Easily a HoFer.

A 10-time Gold Glover with a .300 BA. Nothing more required. One of the all-time greats at 2B.

oykib · 03-20-2005, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragone

If he gets in.. Its time to let frank white in... grr

I really hope that was a joke.

Besides being a comparable fielder to White, Alomar was twice the hitter that White was.

Alomar is a first-ballot Hall of Famer.

In mcuh the same way that 1500 RBIs is used as a litmus test for run-producers, 1500 runs should be used for table-setters. Alomar has over 1500 career runs.

Those runs are the product of his OBP, speed, and mid-range power.

An OPS+ of 116 from a ten-time gold glove winner with 1500 runs and nearly 500 steals with am 80% steal rate...?

That should be a no-brainer.

Joe · 03-20-2005, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Easily a HoFer.

A 10-time Gold Glover with a .300 BA. Nothing more required. One of the all-time greats at 2B.

Well I think more than that is required. If it wasn't, then Don Mattingly would be getting more than the 50 HOF votes each year he does. There's a 9-time gold glover, .300 career hitter, AL MVP, 2100+ hit guy, etc.

clintl · 03-20-2005, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George W Bush

Well I think more than that is required. If it wasn't, then Don Mattingly would be getting more than the 50 HOF votes each year he does. There's a 9-time gold glover, .300 career hitter, AL MVP, 2100+ hit guy, etc.

The offensive bar is a lot higher for a first baseman. Plus, a great defensive second baseman is a lot more valuable than a great defensive first baseman.

Blackadar · 03-20-2005, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George W Bush

Well I think more than that is required. If it wasn't, then Don Mattingly would be getting more than the 50 HOF votes each year he does. There's a 9-time gold glover, .300 career hitter, AL MVP, 2100+ hit guy, etc.

You neglected to mention I qualified my statement by saying 2B.

sterlingice · 03-20-2005, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George W Bush

Well I think more than that is required. If it wasn't, then Don Mattingly would be getting more than the 50 HOF votes each year he does. There's a 9-time gold glover, .300 career hitter, AL MVP, 2100+ hit guy, etc.

Standards are different for different positions, tho. But if you're just making the comment that those numbers aren't enough, then yeah.

SI

QuikSand · 03-20-2005, 11:58 AM

Is there really someone arguing that he doesn't have a lock solid HOF case? I hope this is just one of those "oh, I didn't realize" things, rather than someone actually being familiar with his career numbers, and then deciding he's not worthy.

First ballot, period.

JSB · 03-20-2005, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George W Bush

Well I think more than that is required. If it wasn't, then Don Mattingly would be getting more than the 50 HOF votes each year he does. There's a 9-time gold glover, .300 career hitter, AL MVP, 2100+ hit guy, etc.

15 stolen bases

Alomar was the best second baseman of the 90's.
Alomar is a hall of famer

Joe · 03-20-2005, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackadar

You neglected to mention I qualified my statement by saying 2B.

Whoops, didn't realize you were qualifying it by that. Sounded like just the .300 and 10 gold gloves is what you were qualifying it by. My bad.

Crapshoot · 03-20-2005, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Is there really someone arguing that he doesn't have a lock solid HOF case? I hope this is just one of those "oh, I didn't realize" things, rather than someone actually being familiar with his career numbers, and then deciding he's not worthy.

First ballot, period.

Bingo. In the OOTP poll, I called this an idiot test- and that's exactly what it is.

Joe · 03-20-2005, 12:16 PM

I hope he gets in. I'd call him and Sandberg #1 and #1a of their era for their position, and it's a shame Ryne didn't get in last time.

oykib · 03-20-2005, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George W Bush

I hope he gets in. I'd call him and Sandberg #1 and #1a of their era for their position, and it's a shame Ryne didn't get in last time.

Sandberg had a career 114 OPS. Alomar's was 116 for his career. Alomar also had 130 more steals with a better steal rate. He had more gold gloves-- and almost nobody argues that he didn't deserve his.

I guess it's quibbling to argue the 1/1a thing. But Alomar was a better player. I'd choose him over Sandberg.

Pyser · 03-20-2005, 12:52 PM

he sure sucked ass for the mets though.

didnt see that one coming at all.

Joe · 03-20-2005, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oykib

Sandberg had a career 114 OPS. Alomar's was 116 for his career. Alomar also had 130 more steals with a better steal rate. He had more gold gloves-- and almost nobody argues that he didn't deserve his.

I guess it's quibbling to argue the 1/1a thing. But Alomar was a better player. I'd choose him over Sandberg.

I probably would too, given their offensive numbers. Sandberg's weren't all that great, even though he was playing at Wrigley. But he did have more silver slugger awards.. 7 i think.

Bad-example · 03-20-2005, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oykib

Alomar...had more gold gloves-- and almost nobody argues that he didn't deserve his.

Agreed. Alomar earned his gold gloves with his defense, not his bat.

Buccaneer · 03-20-2005, 01:22 PM

Bill James List of Second Basemen

1. Joe Morgan
2. Eddie Collins
3. Roger Hornsby
4. Jackie Robinson
5. Craig Biggio
6. Nap Lajoie
7. Ryne Sandberg
8. Charlie Gehringer
9. Rod Carew
10. Roberto Alomar

Below #10 are marginal HOFers like Grich, Whitaker, Fox, Randolph, Doerr, etc.

Written in 2001:

"In mid-career; hasn't won an MVP so far and time may be running out on him..An overrated fielder, even a very good one, but no better than some guys who didn't win Gold Gloves, like Fernandi Vina. Offensively, very similar to Frankie Frisch..Frisch and Alomar are both swtich-hitting second baseman, very fast, with batting averages over .300 and medium-range power. Alomar is a better hitter, Frisch was a better leader and a better baserunner."

GG are overrated in my opinion because they do not necessarily give it to the best fielder at the position...just who is perceived to be. But since the list of hall-worthy second baseman tends to be short, Alomar (and Biggio) certainly makes their cases just by being the best of their era. Just like at C, the bar is not set that high as compared to other positions.

Buccaneer · 03-20-2005, 01:33 PM

What would make me hesitant to call him a first-balloter is Sandberg, a slightly better defensive second baseman and power hitter (but not as good OBP and baserunner) that took so long to get in.

clintl · 03-20-2005, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyser

he sure sucked ass for the mets though.

didnt see that one coming at all.

Hasn't everyone sucked for the Mets lately?

mhass · 03-20-2005, 02:49 PM

"The spit" will be an issue when the Hall vote comes up. We will hear guys like Bob Ryan talk more about that than his baseball playing which is unfortunate. He gets in for sure and somebody will complain.

Pyser · 03-20-2005, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clintl

Hasn't everyone sucked for the Mets lately?

touche.

oykib · 03-20-2005, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Bill James List of Second Basemen

1. Joe Morgan
2. Eddie Collins
3. Roger Hornsby
4. Jackie Robinson
5. Craig Biggio
6. Nap Lajoie
7. Ryne Sandberg
8. Charlie Gehringer
9. Rod Carew
10. Roberto Alomar

Below #10 are marginal HOFers like Grich, Whitaker, Fox, Randolph, Doerr, etc.

Written in 2001:

"In mid-career; hasn't won an MVP so far and time may be running out on him..An overrated fielder, even a very good one, but no better than some guys who didn't win Gold Gloves, like Fernandi Vina. Offensively, very similar to Frankie Frisch..Frisch and Alomar are both swtich-hitting second baseman, very fast, with batting averages over .300 and medium-range power. Alomar is a better hitter, Frisch was a better leader and a better baserunner."

GG are overrated in my opinion because they do not necessarily give it to the best fielder at the position...just who is perceived to be. But since the list of hall-worthy second baseman tends to be short, Alomar (and Biggio) certainly makes their cases just by being the best of their era. Just like at C, the bar is not set that high as compared to other positions.

That was written mid-career. In his New Historical Baseball Abstract, James makes a point of rating every active player as low as they could reasonably be rated.

I think he's better than #10. I've already stated that I believe he was better.

Anyway, the #10 player at his position should be good enough for the Hall.

Maple Leafs · 03-20-2005, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

5. Craig Biggio
10. Roberto Alomar

Wow.

I have a really tough time figuring this one out. I realize it was written a few years back, but Alomar hasn't done much since 2001. Does James explain the gap?

Both have played 17 seasons. Biggio has about 150 more at-bats -- pretty even. Pick a stat and Alomar tops Biggio: hits, average, SBs, RBIs, fewer Ks. Biggio has the advantage in HRs, but Alomar edges him in slugging and OPS. Biggio's only real advantage is runs.

Alomar has far more all-star appearances (12 to 7) and gold gloves (10 to 4), Biggio takes black and grey ink, but Alomar takes HOF monitor. Alomar has two rings and an LCS MVP (including a dramatic series-turning HR off another HOF, one of the top five clutch moments of the 90s). Biggio didn't make it out of the first round until last year.

I know Alomar was a jerk who played for every team in the league, and Biggio was a nice guy who was strongly identified with one team. But does anyone want to take a crack at explaining how you could call Biggio a better player than Alomar?

Buccaneer · 03-20-2005, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oykib

That was written mid-career. In his New Historical Baseball Abstract, James makes a point of rating every active player as low as they could reasonably be rated.

I think he's better than #10. I've already stated that I believe he was better.

Anyway, the #10 player at his position should be good enough for the Hall.

I agree except for the mid-career point; it seems that 2001 (about when this was written) was his last good year.

Buccaneer · 03-20-2005, 09:52 PM

Again, I go back to Ryno. He would be deemed more favorable to the voters (slightly better stats, much better personality and truly a fan favorite) but even he had a relatively hard time getting in.

clintl · 03-20-2005, 09:57 PM

To me, based on a quick look earlier today, Alomar's stats look better than Sandberg's.

Joe · 03-20-2005, 09:57 PM

and Ryno never spit in an ump's face.

Maple Leafs · 03-20-2005, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Again, I go back to Ryno. He would be deemed more favorable to the voters (slightly better stats, much better personality and truly a fan favorite) but even he had a relatively hard time getting in.

Again, I don't see Sandberg having the better stats. HRs, sure, and a slight SLG advantage, but otherwise Alomar has him beat.

Agreed on personality though. Alomar was actually a decent guy except for the spitting incident. That's a mighty big "except", though.

dawgfan · 03-20-2005, 10:00 PM

I think at least part of Ryno's problem was that his hitting numbers were deemed somewhat inflated from playing half his games in Wrigley Field.

Alomar is a no-questions-asked Hall-of-Famer.

dawgfan · 03-20-2005, 10:07 PM

Dola -

I won't quote his exact text on Craig Biggio, but part of what Bill James likes so much about him in the New Historical Baseball Abstract is that Biggio, according to James, has the best 'little stats' of any player in baseball history.

He defines 'little stats' as hit-by-pitch, grounding into double-plays, sacrifice hits, sac flies and intentional walks. Biggio was very good in all these categories, especially HBP and avoiding GIDP. He believes lack of general recognition of these stats is a big reason why (in his opinion) Biggio has been seriously under-rated throughout his career.

In his late notes section of that book, James admits that he probably rated Biggio a touch too high, and suggests he would drop him to 6th all-time, behind Nap Lajoie, while holding steady on his rating of Alomar at #10.

ISiddiqui · 03-21-2005, 01:03 AM

Yep, that's right. There were a number of 'little stats' that Biggio destroyed everyone else in. Like he led the league in HBP most of his career (which puts you on base). He also almost never hit into double plays. Things like that that don't get counted is why James so loved Biggio.

He explained in great detail (a few pages of stuff) and explained why Biggio in the 90s was a better player than Ken Griffey, Jr, based on Win Shares.

edit: Just checked, he spend a full page (2 columns) in the 'All Time Player Ratings' section of his book explaining how good Biggio was, and how he was better than Griffey. FWIW, he rated Biggio as the 35th best player of all time.

oykib · 03-21-2005, 04:28 AM

I imagine that we'll get to the truth of the spitting incident by the time Alomar's eligible.

The common rumor is that Alomar is gay and that the ump in question made a slur to that effect. If that's the actual case, I doubt many voters would hold that against him.

Maple Leafs · 03-21-2005, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Like he led the league in HBP most of his career (which puts you on base) ... Things like that that don't get counted is why James so loved Biggio.

Somewhat off-topic, but do I read that correctly -- HBP is not counted in OBP? I never knew that.

Crapshoot · 03-21-2005, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Somewhat off-topic, but do I read that correctly -- HBP is not counted in OBP? I never knew that.

It is- I think he's alleging that its not much of a skill.

03-19-2005, 02:29 PM	#2
Maple Leafs Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002	So what hat does he wear into the Hall of Fame? __________________ Down Goes Brown: Toronto Maple Leafs Humor and Analysis

03-19-2005, 02:35 PM	#3
vtbub College Starter Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Burlington, VT USA	Probably a Jay, it's where he played longest and has his rings. __________________

03-19-2005, 04:01 PM	#11
Maple Leafs Coordinator Join Date: Jan 2002	Maybe it's because I grew up in TO, but I remember Alomar being considered the top 2B in the game for much of his career. He's in. __________________ Down Goes Brown: Toronto Maple Leafs Humor and Analysis

03-20-2005, 07:47 AM	#17
Swaggs Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Almost Heaven	I think he is easily in. __________________ DOWN WITH HATTRICK!!! The RWBL Are you reading In The Bleachers?

03-20-2005, 12:52 PM	#30
Pyser Pro Rookie Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Los Angeles	he sure sucked ass for the mets though. didnt see that one coming at all. __________________ to the toppermost of the poppermost! i challenge you to beat me: predict the #1 movie every week

03-19-2005, 03:09 PM	#4
bosshogg23 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Philly	Rarely do you see a player decline so quickly. Alomar had a .956 OPS in 2001 and a HIGH of .713 the next 3 years. He was fun to watch when he was good though.

03-19-2005, 03:16 PM	#5
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	A poor man's Ryne Sandberg.

03-19-2005, 03:19 PM	#6
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	so do we think he's a lock for the HoF then? Just because he had the 10 GG's? I dunno...I never really saw him as THAT good. Feel free to disprove me though, I didnt watch him all that much. edit: I am speaking offensively here. I know that defensively he was great.

03-19-2005, 03:37 PM	#9
bosshogg23 College Benchwarmer Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Philly	I dont think there is any question he goes into the HOF quickly. 2700 hits, 200 HRs, 474 stolen bases(only 114 caught stealing) and 1100 RBI.

03-19-2005, 04:02 PM	#12
sovereignstar In The Penalty Box Join Date: Feb 2004	Robbie Alomar reminded me of a young Bert Blylevan, so maybe he's not in.

03-19-2005, 08:56 PM	#13
Crapshoot Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Dec 2003	Robbie Alomar is a first ballot, no questions asked HOF. Else, we have a HOF of Bonds, Ruth, Johnson and Mays.

03-20-2005, 06:05 AM	#16
Ragone Pro Rookie Join Date: May 2002 Location: Kansas City, Mo	If he gets in.. Its time to let frank white in... grr

03-20-2005, 08:36 AM	#18
Blackadar Retired Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fantasyland	Easily a HoFer. A 10-time Gold Glover with a .300 BA. Nothing more required. One of the all-time greats at 2B.

03-20-2005, 11:58 AM	#24
QuikSand lolzcat Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Annapolis, Md	Is there really someone arguing that he doesn't have a lock solid HOF case? I hope this is just one of those "oh, I didn't realize" things, rather than someone actually being familiar with his career numbers, and then deciding he's not worthy. First ballot, period.

03-20-2005, 12:16 PM	#28
Joe Pro Starter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Minneapolis	I hope he gets in. I'd call him and Sandberg #1 and #1a of their era for their position, and it's a shame Ryne didn't get in last time.

03-20-2005, 01:22 PM	#33
Buccaneer Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Colorado	Bill James List of Second Basemen 1. Joe Morgan 2. Eddie Collins 3. Roger Hornsby 4. Jackie Robinson 5. Craig Biggio 6. Nap Lajoie 7. Ryne Sandberg 8. Charlie Gehringer 9. Rod Carew 10. Roberto Alomar Below #10 are marginal HOFers like Grich, Whitaker, Fox, Randolph, Doerr, etc. Written in 2001: "In mid-career; hasn't won an MVP so far and time may be running out on him..An overrated fielder, even a very good one, but no better than some guys who didn't win Gold Gloves, like Fernandi Vina. Offensively, very similar to Frankie Frisch..Frisch and Alomar are both swtich-hitting second baseman, very fast, with batting averages over .300 and medium-range power. Alomar is a better hitter, Frisch was a better leader and a better baserunner." GG are overrated in my opinion because they do not necessarily give it to the best fielder at the position...just who is perceived to be. But since the list of hall-worthy second baseman tends to be short, Alomar (and Biggio) certainly makes their cases just by being the best of their era. Just like at C, the bar is not set that high as compared to other positions.

03-20-2005, 01:33 PM	#34
Buccaneer Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Colorado	What would make me hesitant to call him a first-balloter is Sandberg, a slightly better defensive second baseman and power hitter (but not as good OBP and baserunner) that took so long to get in.

03-20-2005, 02:49 PM	#36
mhass High School Varsity Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Here	"The spit" will be an issue when the Hall vote comes up. We will hear guys like Bob Ryan talk more about that than his baseball playing which is unfortunate. He gets in for sure and somebody will complain. __________________ Now while I wasn't able to cut everyone I wanted to, I have cut a lot of you. - H.J.S.

03-20-2005, 09:52 PM	#41
Buccaneer Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Colorado	Again, I go back to Ryno. He would be deemed more favorable to the voters (slightly better stats, much better personality and truly a fan favorite) but even he had a relatively hard time getting in.

03-20-2005, 09:57 PM	#42
clintl College Starter Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Davis, CA	To me, based on a quick look earlier today, Alomar's stats look better than Sandberg's.

03-21-2005, 01:03 AM	#47
ISiddiqui Head Coach Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Decatur, GA	Yep, that's right. There were a number of 'little stats' that Biggio destroyed everyone else in. Like he led the league in HBP most of his career (which puts you on base). He also almost never hit into double plays. Things like that that don't get counted is why James so loved Biggio. He explained in great detail (a few pages of stuff) and explained why Biggio in the 90s was a better player than Ken Griffey, Jr, based on Win Shares. edit: Just checked, he spend a full page (2 columns) in the 'All Time Player Ratings' section of his book explaining how good Biggio was, and how he was better than Griffey. FWIW, he rated Biggio as the 35th best player of all time. __________________ "A prayer for the wild at heart, kept in cages" -Tennessee Williams Last edited by ISiddiqui : 03-21-2005 at 01:06 AM.

03-21-2005, 04:28 AM	#48
oykib College Starter Join Date: Oct 2000	I imagine that we'll get to the truth of the spitting incident by the time Alomar's eligible. The common rumor is that Alomar is gay and that the ump in question made a slur to that effect. If that's the actual case, I doubt many voters would hold that against him.

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