Like We Need Another Reason To Piss People Off While On a Plane...

[Ksyrup]

(CNN) -- If you have tried to lean your seat back on a plane and find it will not budge, it is probably not a new airline plot to make flying even more uncomfortable, but a new gadget.

The plastic device wedges against the frame of the seat in front and allows you to stop passengers from reclining their chairs during a flight.

The novel widget, which can be bought on the Internet, may not only worry airlines, but could lead to a whole new era in air-rage.

A polite passenger with long legs might ask a reclining traveler to straighten up or ask the flight attendant for a bulkhead seat, other flyers just purchase the Knee Defender.

Its inventor claims business has been "manic" since its launch a few months ago. With a price tag of just under $15, the company now ships the device internationally.

"We have thousands of customers who have bought the Knee Defenders," creator Ira Goldman told CNN.

"We have also sold Knee Defenders to many older people, they indicate that they have sensitive knees and they had stopped flying because of concerns about reclining seats."

During one flight in the mid-1990s, the six foot three inch (191 cm) business traveler decided to take action after many seat-knee encounters.

"I noticed the way that tray tables and seats move relative to each other and realized that by placing something between them I could protect my knees," says Goldman.

He believes airlines do not give tall people enough space in economy class and was motivated to help those suffering from knee batterings.

If you use the "U" shaped bits of plastic, you can also download a "Knee Defender Courtesy Card" from the Web site, which explains to upset passengers in front that you are using the device to protect your knees.

"We do know that some airline staff have even bought Knee Defenders for when they fly as passengers," explains Goldman.

He also claims the device helps as a warning or safety device for laptop computer users in-flight when a seat is being reclined, or if space is needed for a child on your lap.

The new device has led airlines to consider passenger reclining privileges in-flight.

According to Business Traveller magazine, Northwest Airlines have banned the Knee Defender, saying that flyers have the right to recline seats. American Airlines have not banned it, but feel passengers also have this right.

According to the Times of London, the UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) wants the Knee Defender banned on safety grounds.

The CAA told the Times that: "Anything that affects the seat could jeopardize safety. We may take action if people use it."

"Last year the U.S. Federal Aviation Authority stated that they may be used on aircraft other than during taxiing, takeoff, or landing," says Goldman.

[Honolulu_Blue]

All praise the Knee Defender!! What a glorious idea and invention. I love it! Since moving to Belgium I have flown a lot of trans-Atlantic flights in coach. Nothing pisses me off more than the person reclining their chair completely the moment the plane takes off. I'm 6'4", it's freaking unbearable to sit like that for 7+ hours. If I see them reclining, I immediately raise my knees to try and prevent it. It doesn't work. Than I let out a loud groan, in hopes they will turn around and notice that I'm folded up. If they still recline, it's war. I knee the f*ck out that chair every chance I get. Everytime I get up to go to the bathroom, I shake the f*cker like a polaroid picture.

Hey, if someone is behind me I don't recline, simply of out respect and because I know how angry it makes me. I would much rather not be able to recline at all than have the person in front of me recline.

The only exception to this is the flight from the U.S. to Europe when the sole purpose is to sleep as much as possible. I don't mind people reclining back then. I take my Tylenol PM and hope to get as much sleep as possible. Granted, there is also some shrieking baby within 2 rows, but I do what I can.

Kneed Defender. Well done!

[wig]

That is brilliant.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by wig

That is brilliant.

Can write this down, please?

[JeeberD]

I read about that somewhere else, and I remember read that most airlines are beginning to ban it. If a flight attendent catches you using it they will confiscate it from you...

[rkmsuf]

Don't enable the seats to recline...problem solved...

If they can recline this is stupid and only will result in "incidents"...

[Yossarian]

I shake the f*cker like a polaroid picture.

If you do that, you'll ruin the picture.

[wig]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Can write this down, please?

This isn't write-worthy.

[stevew]

I havent ever flown, but I cant understand why the airline thinks its okay for people to recline their seat into your freaking lap. This sounds like something I would definately pick up if I ever were to fly much.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

If they can recline this is stupid and only will result in "incidents"...

Pretty much what I was thinking. although "incidents" was a bit milder than my first couple of thoughts

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by wig

This isn't write-worthy.

True enough. But at least you're right this time! That's gotta be write-worthy.

[KevinNU7]

I like having the knee excuse for seat upgrades, EMERGENCY ISLE HERE I COME!

[Draft Dodger]

a simple solution:

CRAM LESS SEATS ON THE FUCKING AIRPLANES

[cartman]

Reading things like this makes me truly appreciate that my company flies us in business class whenever we have long flights! I don't think I would have survived the past couple of years (over 300,000 miles) riding in coach.

[judicial clerk]

I foresee this device eventually making its way into the recent thread that discussed objects that doctors found shoved up peoples asses.

[Solecismic]

I'm pretty much at a point where I refuse to fly any more except in an emergency. I can't afford to go first class, and being 6-1, 215, I just don't have enough room in cattle herd class.

The last time I flew, I noticed something interesting. When the flight was at underway, the guy in front of me looked back. And since it wasn't a full flight, he moved over to the middle seat and reclined it. It was the first time I've ever seen someone behave in a courteous fashion on an airplane.

I'm like Honolulu. If the person in front of me keeps his seat forward, I try very hard not to touch it. But if he reclines, I'll knock it every chance I get.

American Airlines tried a campaign a couple of years ago to give people a little more leg room. But, they found it had no bearing on profits, and have just started putting more seats in again. People still decide on flights based completely on cost.

[Noop]

Jim so you are going to drop us some big news I see....




noop

[Glengoyne]

Here Here!

Reclining your seat on a airplane shouldn't be considered a right. It should be considered a luxury. It is not just tall people, it is anyone who is utilizing their tray table. If you have ever had your laptop shoved around or a soda spilled, you are more than aware of that fact. I almost never recline my seat if there is someone behind me. If I need to sleep, and someone is back there I do it gently, and ask them politely to let me know if my reclining is a problem. There is a very short list of things that piss me off more than someone slamming their seat back into the reclined position in front of me.

[mgadfly]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

and being 6-1, 215, I just don't have enough room in cattle herd class.

You have it good. I'm 6'4, 340 and my cost conscious wife has me crammed into a Southwest flight everytime we go somewhere. The current conflict is whether we should drive from Spokane to San Diego this summer, or fly.

I'm in favor of driving.

[Desnudo]

Complain to the airline for allowing the seats to recline. I don't usually recline myself and get annoyed when someone else does, but if you haven't noticed, a device is installed on the seat to allow it to do so. Have you ever thought about simply asking someone to put it back rather than kneeing and shaking their seat?

[ScottVib]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

Have you ever thought about simply asking someone to put it back rather than kneeing and shaking their seat?

Yes I frequently ask. Unfortunately most people just say sorry and continue to crush my knees. If someone does it anyways and shoots me a dirty look when they hit my knees, say sorry I can't help being this tall, take it up with my parents.

I'm 6'4" I have a big problem when someone reclines more then a few degrees, without even trying my to put my knees in the small of the persons back, it just happens naturally that my lower legs are pinned between the seat and the floor. I can't move, can't work, can't read, and have zero comfort the entire flight, if your company is as cheap as mine is... you are already uncomfortable with zero shoulder room (my shoulders are too wide for most airline seats and they will only spring for the cheapest possible flight (hello Southwest cattle class)) and now can't do anything to help pass the time on a very long flight. So your in pain, and bored, and life royally sucks.

Out of respect for the people behind me, if there is someone in back of me I don't recline the seat beyond the point that I can tolerate and don't recline it at all if the person is close to my height or taller, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I personally find this device ingenious, maybe if the airlines notice an uptick of people using it, they'll realize there is money to be made by it (Besides it's got to be cheaper/easier to maintain a non-reclining seat then a recliner). I don't personally belive that people have the right to recline if it results in their seat being directly over the top of my body and my being unable to see the magazine that was sitting in my lap as I read it.

Taking it another direction: Why should anyone have the right to use one airline provided luxury (the reclining seat) at the expense of my using another airline provided luxury (the fold out table)? If the airlines are willing to protect the interests of passengers using one luxury, why not the other?

[Chubby]

Because the airlines are dumb.
See also - Discount airlines crushing traditional airlines.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by ScottVib

Yes I frequently ask. Unfortunately most people just say sorry and continue to crush my knees.

Really? I find that absolutely amazing. Usually if I make a direct request of someone they are very accomodating.

[rkmsuf]

Maybe it's in the delivery...

ScottVib: Hey dork...cut me some slack man and move that f-ing seat.

Desnudo: Pardon me sir...there's 20 dollars in it for you if you raise your seat up.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Somewhere in all this, it seems to me that it comes down to one person's "right" to recline vs another person's "right" to use their traytable, etc.

Problem is, I don't see either "right" as being greater than the other. And yes, before someone asks, that does indeed include the "right" not to have your knees squashed.

Presumably, both the recliner & the reclinee paid the same amount for their ticket, and as long as the seats are made capable of reclining, then I feel like the recliner has the right to make use of that function.

Should they? Or, in case somebody wonders, do I? No, not if it beats the bloody hell outta the passenger behind them. (exception to rule: if I'm reclining strictly to avoid being pounded by the reclined seat in front of me, all bets are off & it's every man for himself)

But AFAIC, even if I don't exercise my option to recline, I still have the bought-and- paid-for right to do so.

[sabotai]

You get what you pay for...it sucks but that's the nature of flying. If you want to fly comfortably, then you have to pay extra.

And just ot make it clear, I'm not making excuses for the recliners. They're assholes who should be thrown off the plane...in midflight. BUT...you get what you pay for.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by sabotai

You get what you pay for...it sucks but that's the nature of flying. If you want to fly comfortably, then you have to pay extra.

And just ot make it clear, I'm not making excuses for the recliners. They're assholes who should be thrown off the plane...in midflight. BUT...you get what you pay for.

I agree 100%. Considering you can fly from the US to London for <$500 it's hard to complain about anything. Also, there is that coach+ on British Airways overseas flights. I think Virgin Atlantic has the same. It's actually a quite reasonable fare.

Also, be careful about what airline you fly if you can. In my experience Delta has by far the worst leg room of any major carrier. They jam almost double the amount of rows on the same plane. Northwest would probably be second. UAL and Continental are both pretty decent.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Maybe it's in the delivery...

ScottVib: Hey dork...cut me some slack man and move that f-ing seat.

Desnudo: Pardon me sir...there's 20 dollars in it for you if you raise your seat up.

Actually it's more like:

Desnudo: Pardon me sir, but I don't like looking at the top of your wart ridden bald skull, would you mind moving forward before I lubricate your face with my beer?

[Rizon]

I travel cross country several times a year, and I have to recline my seat because of my bad back. Sitting straight up like that for hours on a cross country flight is a bitch and I gimp around for 2 days after.

Course, I'm also 6'1, yet have never had a problem with someone reclining their seat. I've had people recline while I was eating, and the tray doesn't move. I don't have this drastic loss of space when someone reclines. It's never bothered me a single bit.

I travel on whatever airline is the cheapest, so it's not that. I'm also the opposite of claustrophobic, so small spaces don't bother me at all. Maybe I'm just lucky enough to not have someone push their seat back all the way and/or slam it back really fast like a dick.

PS: Oh wait a minute, I know why. I never get seated around adults, just kids. Kids who jump up and down all over the plane like it's a jungle gym. So I guess it evens out. You guys get the reclining chair jerks, I get the jerk kids.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Rizon

I travel cross country several times a year, and I have to recline my seat because of my bad back. Sitting straight up like that for hours on a cross country flight is a bitch and I gimp around for 2 days after.

Course, I'm also 6'1, yet have never had a problem with someone reclining their seat. I've had people recline while I was eating, and the tray doesn't move. I don't have this drastic loss of space when someone reclines. It's never bothered me a single bit.

I travel on whatever airline is the cheapest, so it's not that. I'm also the opposite of claustrophobic, so small spaces don't bother me at all. Maybe I'm just lucky enough to not have someone push their seat back all the way and/or slam it back really fast like a dick.

PS: Oh wait a minute, I know why. I never get seated around adults, just kids. Kids who jump up and down all over the plane like it's a jungle gym. So I guess it evens out. You guys get the reclining chair jerks, I get the jerk kids.

I've seen it all. I spent five years of my life flying on a weekly basis. Kids kicking your seat while the parent quietly reads right next to them. Kids pounding on their table so your seat shakes. Kids playing Gameboy without an earplug. Mothers changing diapers in their seat. Guys who don't fold the paper over so it hits the back of your head. Belligerent drunks threatening the flight attendant because they were shut off. People who seem to think that the top of your head rest is also a good armrest while they wait for the bathroom. People who never apologize for slamming you with their bags while walking down the isle. The list goes on and on.

I think what you see is a grand pyschology experiment. Stuff 250 people in a stuffy metal tube with no means of escape and some alcohol and see what happens.

The only thing I never saw consistently in coach was good looking women. Where do they all go?

[oykib]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

The only thing I never saw consistently in coach was good looking women. Where do they all go?

They're all in first class eating ice cream sundaes with the chocolate syrup at the bottom of the bowl to facilitate better chocolate distribution.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

a simple solution:

CRAM LESS SEATS ON THE FUCKING AIRPLANES

It is always the simple solutions that are so difficult for major coporations to comprehend

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by mgadfly

You have it good. I'm 6'4, 340 and my cost conscious wife has me crammed into a Southwest flight everytime we go somewhere.

If I ever have to fly Southwest again it'll be too soon. Screw cost-consciousness. We were booking flights for a convention last year and my company was using Southwest because it was the cheapest. I went to my boss and told him I'd pay the difference to fly another airline. I feel like a prime steer everytime I fly SWA.

Luckily, he agreed that it was worth $25 bucks for me to not have to beat people over the headfor an emergency aisle seat and just reserve it with another airline.

Jon, I'd disagree that reclining your seat is a "right" that you receive with the purchase of a ticket. Look at the paperwork -- nowhere is that "right" expressed. Simply because a seat reclines does not mean I have a right to recline in that seat if it causes harm. Do I have the "right" to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater? And that's aside from the notion that my right to not have you bruise my knees outweighs your right to recline slightly.

If I were litigious, next time somebody reclined into me I'd sue. God bless America.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

a simple solution:

CRAM LESS SEATS ON THE FUCKING AIRPLANES

Ayup. Then again, I don't have too many problems. I'm not exactly a small guy but not huge either at 6'2" 195 and the only time I had significant problems was flying Trans-Atlantic on the 747 sardine can when I was 13. If a 13yo doesn't fit then they have problems but the typical 737 or whatever I flew at Christmas gave me few problems.

But, this invention is just plain stupid. I have something that serves this same purpose. It's called a knee. And if the guy is really pushing his luck, leaned it back quite a bit, and ignored a polite request, he'd gets two size 13 shoes stuck in his lower back. But it's never come to that.

Then again, the simplest solution to try and get the emergency exit seat. Now that's legroom galore. And all the major airlines (sans Southwest) charge the exact same price for practically the same flight (one might leave at 6:15 vs one leaving at 6:45). So I just shop around until I find a flight where there's an empty emergency exit seat if I can. It's worth a half hour at the computer to be comfortable for 2+ hours in the air.

SI

[Anthony]

i recline all i want. my theory is if you don't like it, don't be such a poor bastard and spring for first class seats.

i'm a big guy, survival of the strongest i say. courtesy is for flushing toilets.

[Craptacular]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Then again, the simplest solution to try and get the emergency exit seat. Now that's legroom galore. And all the major airlines (sans Southwest) charge the exact same price for practically the same flight (one might leave at 6:15 vs one leaving at 6:45). So I just shop around until I find a flight where there's an empty emergency exit seat if I can. It's worth a half hour at the computer to be comfortable for 2+ hours in the air.

I thought they couldn't assign those until check-in, so they can verify that the person is able to handle the emergency duties. I've never actually tried it, but an old friend told me he asks for those every time, but that he had to do it at check-in. I usually try to sit away from the wings, for an unobstructed view.

[SunDancer]

Originally Posted by miami_fan

It is always the simple solutions that are so difficult for major coporations to comprehend

Or maybe they see the simple solution of making the greatest profit. Actually, by cramping more seats, it lowers fare because they can spread the costs more with each additional seat. Or atleast thats the concept with lower-fare airlines.

[Sun Tzu]

Originally Posted by Hell Atlantic

courtesy is for flushing toilets.

Who'ing the what now?

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Craptacular

I thought they couldn't assign those until check-in, so they can verify that the person is able to handle the emergency duties. I've never actually tried it, but an old friend told me he asks for those every time, but that he had to do it at check-in. I usually try to sit away from the wings, for an unobstructed view.

Maybe my memory is bad and the last time I flew I couldn't get one (not surprising since I was on booked flights at Thanksgiving) but the couple of times before that, I had gotten them. Maybe I did ask when I got there, but I thought I had gotten them online.

SI

[Axxon]

You want leg room? Try the left seat of a 767; I have.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Another option for avoiding someone reclining in front of you is to get a seat on the bulkhead.

I'm not usually too thrilled about people reclining the whole way in front of me, but I'm fortunate enough to be able to tolerate it without any significant discomfort. I don't generally ask (or look behind me) when reclining, but then again, a) often I won't do it at all, it depends on whether I'm uncomfortable in the full upright position, and b) when I do, I try to recline only a short way (hopefully less than 1/3 of the travel of the seat, certainly no more than 1/2).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Look at the paperwork -- nowhere is that "right" expressed.

Although I don't have a ticket lying around handy to check, I have my doubts that there's any expressed "right" not for anyone to be comfortable on the flight either.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

The only thing I never saw consistently in coach was good looking women. Where do they all go?

That's the beauty of flying out of an airport that services a large university in a small town. Not only do the coeds typically not have enough money to fly first class, but the planes are so small, they don't even have a first class. Good times.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

That's the beauty of flying out of an airport that services a large university in a small town. Not only do the coeds typically not have enough money to fly first class, but the planes are so small, they don't even have a first class. Good times.

Fly here often?

[Ksyrup]

I take the weekly Tallahassee to Provo flight. Use up enough gas to fly to South America and back, too.

[rkmsuf]

I'd ask you if you are doing some stunt flying up there or something but you'll give me that look...

[Ksyrup]

Not since everything switched over to ball bearings...

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by Craptacular

I thought they couldn't assign those until check-in, so they can verify that the person is able to handle the emergency duties. I've never actually tried it, but an old friend told me he asks for those every time, but that he had to do it at check-in. I usually try to sit away from the wings, for an unobstructed view.

It depends on the airline. A lot of airlines allow it as long as you confirm that you can handle it.